In what way are the students responsible for Michigan fielding a team beyond the fact that the athletes are students themselves? The athletic department is self-sufficient; all that tuition money isn't doing jack. I guess they're buying season tickets, but percentage-wise, with their limited numbers, reduced price, and lack of PSD/donations, I'd wager their contributions are minimal.
Brandon: Students 50% late, 25% no-show. !
"In what way are the students responsible for Michigan fielding a team beyond the fact that the athletes are students themselves?"
Also, even if we ignore the fact that the athletes are students, it seems unlikely that a University would be able to field a football team if the University didn't exist.
You can't even make a logical conclusion from your own assertion. So do some simple math:
Let's pretend that 30k is designated to the SS. Each ticket is $30 each. Per game, that is 900k gross.
The remaining stadium has 79k at $90 per game. That is a $7,110,000 gross per game. That is 7.11 million peeps.
That is a nearly 7.3:1margin of difference between the gross revenue of the SS and everyone else. Do you see the difference now? Who exactly is the AD actually serving?
And just keep in mind something, my $90 per game cost for the other 79k seats isn't even close to what they actually gross since PSLs and luxury box cost weren't taken into consideration. Add conservatively another 1 million there. Making it closer to a 8:1 margin conservatively.
Finally, are 30k presumed student body buying merchandise, concessions, etc.?
This argument about who these games are for is laughable. It is about every cotton-picking Michigan fan, not just the students. The AD makes the big money off us Alumni who are addicted to this thing we call Michigan football. The fact anyone is debating it is shocking to say the least.
Get off my lawn!
~ 33 yrs young and crabby about it.
Without the students, there are no football players, and there is no university. I didn't think that was a difficult point to understand. Apparently I was wrong.
Young padawan, the University of Michigan has been in existence for how many years? How many years have we fielded a football team? How many SS problems have there been in the past with regards to half empty sections?
You have lost it. Maybe this discussion is over, because apparently you don't get it.
The University has been in existence since 1817, and the first football season was 1879. The SS has been a problem for, what, 6 or 7 years? Maybe more, I'm not really sure.
Anyways, back to the actual point being made, I'm not denying that it's a problem. My point was that without the students, none of this stuff exists, so it's a little silly to hate on them as a group.
Lay off the drink and drugs. Your brain is melting. You created a straw-man argument yourself by suggesting that the University is some how by Sept 1 going to dissolve both athletically and academically. How's your degree going to work out now? Guess you are transferring to MSU. OMG, charging GA into the SS is an aggravated act hell bent on wedging ties against this generation of SS and all living alumni and the university.
Straw-man...I am ashamed that you are a fan and potential alum of the university that I graduated from and have loved since I was five. I never would have acted like this. This wasn't an issue when I graduated in 2005.
What are you talking about? When did I say that the University was going to dissolve athletically and academically? I said that it would dissolve without students, which is true.
Look, I really don't care that much about the GA policy. Does it suck for me being a 7th year student? Sure. But I get it, although I do think it's shortsighted and ineffective. What I do care about is the constant, unwarranted animosity being directed torwards the general student body. It's annoying, uncalled-for, and the only explanation for it is a desire to assert some kind of bizarre superiorty over younger generations.
You're both acting like jerks, and eamus could stand to work on his reading comprehension. But (s)he probably wouldn't be in such a lather if Ghost weren't so committed to acting like a snotty, entitled brat every time this topic comes up. Maybe you should think about why so many alums think the criticisms are warranted, Ghost, instead of spending so much time whining about their being unfair.
7th Year Student?!?
No wonder you're so upset.......
This is probably the dumbest exchange I've ever read. Just get over yourself already, no one other than yourself cares that you graduated from here.
"Without the students, there are no football players"
have you watched ohio state??
This little argument (and I do regret very much the way that Brandon & Co. have gone public with the extent of the problem and the proposed responses) doesn't come in any sort of vacuum on the MGoBoard.
The students and others have been bitching about the alumni seated between the 20's for as long as this Board has been online.
It's time for those students and others to STFU. If they want to bitch, they can bitch about a part of the home-crowd that isn't even there, when the band comes out!
"Early is on time and on time is late!" Bo Schembechler said that.
I'd be VERY happy get this behind us, this year. The sooner the better. Like in the very first game with Central Michigan. Because this is just terrible press relations for the institution of Michigan football. I'm sort of sorry that Brandon chose to make such an issue out of it. I'm absolutely sorry that Brady Hoke and an Athletic Department intern turned it all into a very bad joke with a suggestion for glazed donuts broadcast via Twitter. Twitter; of course.
"I'd be VERY happy get this behind us, this year."
Is that why you started yet another thread about it?
But hey, since we're still generalizing, let me just say that the alumni are the shittiest, most worthless fans in the entire stadium. I'd much rather have a drunk sorority girl show up 10-20 minutes late and scream her head off for the rest of the game than some rich wine-toothed douchebag alum in section 2 sit on his overpriced seat-cushion all game long and golf clap anytime something good happens, occasionally mustering the strength to get off his fat ass for a 4th quarter game-winning touchdown.
Some students don't show up for the first half of the 1st quarter. Screw them. The rest of the stadium usually doesn't show up at all. I think it's time for everyone to stop starting threads about this, STFU, and let the athletic department do whatever the hell they're going to do.
I just wanted to lock this comment in before you had a chance to take a deep breath and re-read it.
You clearly haven't been in section two very often since I have the last two years. The older crowd of "down in front" is going away if not shunned for saying the last couple years. Air Force, NW and Iowa games, people where standing, clapping, and cheering a lot. Section 23-25 is pretty tame, but I sat in 24 for MSU and everyone was into that game.
You can keep pouting about what happen and try to make yourself feel better by degrading us alumni all you want. We will still buy more tickets than you, and still be here long after you are gone. Deal, seriously.
I don't doubt that alumni collectively buy more tickets than me considering I only buy one ticket.
But you completley missed the point of my comment. I don't actually believe that the picture I painted is an accurate representation of alumni. It was used to illustrate how stupid it is to generalize large segments of the fan base like students.
Student bashing on this site is ridiculous.
All I am hearing is sweeping generaliztions about all the students. "All the students are late" "All the students rip on the other sections" "All the students don't care"
Give me a break...
This GA policy is BS and it screws over all of next year's seniors, like myself. Students like myself are being punished for a minority of student offenders and the group of complaining alumni.
Sssshhhhhh! You'll wake Butterfield!
While I disagree with MLDWoody's hatred of the GA policy, I agree with his sentiment that this site is full of a bunch of assholes who have absurd "get off my lawn" attitudes when it comes to student attendance.
Whether it's bitching about Michigan students painting the Sparty statue since "Michigan is classier" than that (despite college pranks being prevalent at Cal Tech, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc), or complaining that students are late to games after sitting in 25 minute lines to get into the stadium, you guys seriously need to chill.
As people so informatively showed above, students werent showing up on time, if at all, 15 years ago. If they want to lower student tardiness, have more late afternoon / night games or fix the stupid gate system so you dont have 60% of the crowd going in 25% of the turnstiles.
We'll all be on time when we grow up, have families, and dont want to take advantage of those 6-7 gameday party mornings per year. Then we can be like the rest of you, SIT on our CUSHIONS for 93% of the game, and contribute towards Michigan stadium being the quietest big stadium in the country.
Get off my lawn.
You just wanted to thank me for pointing out to Brandon & Co. (yes, they are reading) that the GATE 10 perimeter backup was the most serious bottleneck in getting students into their "seats."
I dont understand why people dont just use the other gates? There are atleast 3 other gates on the north end of the stadium alone. Is it really that difficult to walk up the hill a little ways and enter a different gate? I used to do it for every game and instead of waiting in a bottleneck I was in the stadium in less than 5 minutes.
I really dont understand what is so hard about that.
I disagree with a lot of what you say, but you obviously have a brain and provide information. While it was your thread, it wasn't intended for you.
I've been attending games since 81 when I graduated. I've had season tickets since 89 and recently moved into Section 2. I can tell you I scream, yell, jump on the seats and do everything in my power to make as much noise as humanly possible. I stand most of the game and have had "down in front" yelled at me more times than I care to remember. And I drive three hours one way from Cleveland for the priviledge of doing so.
Over the past several years i have had an excellent view of the student section slowly wither in attendance and its candidly embarrassing. Yes you guys make more noise than we do. Yes you yell louder than we do. Which is exactly why I HATE the fact the students have seemingly stopped giving a shit about football or at least showing up on time for games. It sickens me to see fields of empty seats for the beginning of games and for many Saturday's I'll watch and wonder if they'll fill in.
The "golf clapping' blue hairs around make more noise yelling "down in front" than the empty seats do.
As an alumnus who has the misfortune of living over 1000 miles away from Ann Arbor, I haven't attended a game at Michigan stadium in nearly 30 years. I do think the rising seniors and juniors who have been showing up to games on time all along have good reason to complain about the change. I would also say that those who frequent a blog like this and take the time to post are not the ones creating the problems that posters have been complaining about, whether student or alumnus.
What year did the Athletic Department switch to guaranteeing any student a ticket if they wanted it but only allowing actual students in with the student tickets? Did that coincide with the dwindling student section attendance issues? I attended all of the home games as a student from 1996-1999. I do not remember any attendance issues in the student section at all. However, I do remember a lot of "casual student fans" who had tickets that hardly ever ended up at the games. The difference was, they could sell the tickets to other students who had friends or relatives who wanted to go to the games and they didn't have to get the tickets validated or prove they were actual students. Maybe the Athletic Department should consider raising the price on the student tickets but allow the students to give/sell tickets to friends/relatives/other students without any ID/Validation needed so that Michigan fans end up in the seats. Also, with additional security added at the gates and tunnels, it takes even longer for fans to enter the stadium than it used to. The whole process has never been very efficient but it is worse than ever the last several years. I would say this issue slightly adds to the late arrivals. I do hope the problem can be solved and that students who want to get tickets to the games can still get them. I will never forget my 4 years in the student section. I still love going to the games but nothing will beat the times I had during those 4 years at the Big House. Watching Woodson, Brady, undefeated at home against ND, MSU, and OSU during that time and a National Championship didn't hurt either. Go Blue!!!
Why do people care about people showing up late? I get the sentiment about no-shows, those are tickets that someone else could use. But showing up mid-first quarter, particularly with the huge bottlenecks to enter the stadium, why is that a big deal?
The sense I've gotten from all these threads is that there are two sentiments at work here in the people bothered by this:
1. It makes Michigan look bad to others. This is generally expressed either as looking bad on TV or creating opportunity for other fans (mainly from OSU or MSU) to make fun of Michigan. As for the TV presentation, I'd think that only people looking for empty seats are going to notice them. If they fill in by the end of the first quarter, 1% of viewers are going to remember that. (What does look bad and gets remembered is when there's red all over the stadium, as in 2009). And OSU and MSU fans are going to write scUM (hur, dur) and talk about Walverines no matter what happens. Why get upset about donuts? They're going to make fun of Michigan because it's in the nature of being a rival, the same way people pull out Ufer's truck driver quote or the cooler pooper story at any opportune moment.
2. It strikes people as not the proper behavior for Michigan fans. This comes out through both reminiscences of one's own experiences in the student section (though that photo of huge amounts of empty seats in the mid 2000s earlier in the thread makes it seem like the memories are particularly hazy here). And if your reminiscences of your own time in the student section are about empty upper sections, that's sad. And it also comes out of a set of practices that a proper Michigan fan should follow: in seat by the time the band takes the field being the most prominent. But there are lots of different kinds of fans in all the sections. There are people rabid about football, there are people there to socialize, there are people who go because their husband/wife likes to go, there are band people, there are people on bucket list trips, there are people new to the area. Trying to dictate a standard set of practices, beyond perhaps singing the victors, particularly one based on being at a certain place at a particular moment, is totally futile. Moreover, the nature of this objection seems to be about the offense people take to their own personal sensibilities. I don't get why a section that largely fills in by the end of the first quarter becomes the particular target of this offense-taking.
The no-shows, I totally get, because there's an experience gone wanting. People late to the game? Not worth the agita.
*Note: I graduated in 2003 and have been to maybe 5 games since then, so this is far from a defense by a current student.
and keep it GA. If the student section is full, you'll make sure you're not late the next time
John U. Bacon nails the problem, required reading IMO.
More students care less.
Losing seasons can't keep a student section full, but more importantly, and the trend we'll see in the future is if fewer kids are seeing games in the Big House...fewer kids are going to see games in the Big House.
It's that simple. Price families out of the stadium, and you price a strong slice of your future fan base. (Yes, many people get into M football only when they come to school, but they're supported by several lifetime fans that reinforce the tradition.)
I disagree with JUB on this one. My parents weren't priced out of the stadium but they didn't want to go. The games weren't on TV in those days so I used to listen to them on the radio. It didn't make me want to go less - it made me want to go more. The problem isn't the price or the students. The problem is that the students need to buy a season pass and they either have to use the ticket or be a no show. The validation system prevents the sale of student tickets other than to the most popular of games. If the general public couldn't sell or even give their tickets away, then I guarantee the rest of the stadium would start to look like Sections 26-33.
Here's the thing that nobody has really acknowledged:
If you are a senior that is not part of the problem, then this really shouldn't affect you!!! The Stadium is not going to be full an hour before the game. There will be no line unless you want a seat in the front 10 rows. You'll be able to comfortable get into the gates 20 minutes before kick and get a seat in row 30. Which very likely could be a seat better than what your assigned seat would be.
Want to be closer? Ok, then maybe you eschew tailgaiting and show up early (as in prior to the doors opening 90 minutes before kick). That's your choice. You don't have to do it and if you choose not to, you can still get a great seat 30 minutes before kick off.
When did getting into the stadium 30 minutes prior to kick become such a terrible tragedy? Is another game of beer pong (and yes I'm assuming your beer pong game will last 30 minutes because I am an alumnus and you are students and apparently I am supposed to think you suck at all things. When I was a student our beer pong games lasted 4 minutes and basically if you missed once you lost /ALUMNI'D) worth getting a seat in row 60 versus row 30? If so, then that's your choice.
The point is, you have the choice to arrive on time. If you do, you'll be fine. If you arrive at any point "early" (as in 30-45 minutes) then you will probably be able to get into row 20, save the biggest game(s) of the year. And if you're not willing to get to the stadium 60 minutes early for OSU or ND or other huge games, then that's again your decision.
Also, I'll make one more point:
I graduated from grad school in 2010 when Obama spoke. Because of security we had to be IN OUR SEATS 90 minutes prior to the President arriving and the ceremony beginning. You know what happened?
WE HAD A FUCKING PARTY. It was a blast, people were dancing and singing and going crazy in gowns. People were tweeting up to the big screens and it was a general blast. And that was a huge group of sober people having a blast. Throw in some effects from tailgating and a pre-game MMB show to watch, and I have no sympathy for SOME students complaining about losing "precious" tailgaiting time.
You went to graduation sober? The best part of graduation was tailgating at our house before heading over. I look absolutely ridiculous in that picture they used to take of you in your cap and gown heading in.
I went to the general commencement when I finished grad school sober. Well, I had a couple celebratory shots. But there weren't a ton of people that were flat-out intoxicated in 2010, at least in the area I was in. I know I decided that hey its the sitting President of the United States (whose election the majority of campus greatly celebrated, including an impromptu parade down State and Sout U) I think I want to be pretty sober for this.
Undergrad commencement was a different story.
I was really just joking. I also went to grad school graduation sober.
I agree with all this. And I understand why people get upset at the apparently large number of student no shows. What I don't understand is why the decision some people make to arrive late offends so many people on here? Why do people care so much that the student section be full at kickoff that they seem personally offended if its not?
If anything, the new seating rules, if they work, will have the advantage of roughly sorting different types of fans into different areas of the student section. You're likely to have the die-hard fans (and the "look at me" fans) down low. In the middle 30 rows, you're going to have the people who arrive hit the entry gates 15-30 minutes before kickoff (and will likely still be filtering in when the game starts). The top 30 rows will be mainly social fans, die hard tailgaters/beer pongers, and those too drunk to stand.
The downside is that the inevitable confusion owing to GA is likely to mean the student section is even less full at kickoff for non-premium games.
I don't get it, and I don't see how GA will dictate a full student section before kickoff. Like you, I can see how GA will make it even more chaotic to get students into rows before kickoff. So no, I don't get it.
All that I can surmise is that the overarching strategy is to make it a more effort-filled experience for students, in the hope that the more casual fans in the student ranks just won't purchase tickets in the first place. Freeing up more tickets to be sold to members of the public who have been so hungry for tickets that they will pay to be on a waiting list. (Although even that part isn't perfectly sensible. They have surely now allocated and assigned all of the PSD-level season tickets. If there is a falloff in student tickets such that there are a couple thousand leftovers, I expect that those would be sold as package and single-game tickets. The Ticket Office must have some longer-term plan for ticket sales; and once you take somebody's money for a season-ticket subscription with a PSD, you are sort of committed to them, long-term.)
In anny event, we should know long before the gates open for Central Michigan in August, what sort of effect the new student-section policy (ies) will have. Will the increased ticket prices, combined with GA, dissuade enough casual student-fans from buying tickets in the first place?
We should know soon enough. Does anybody have numbers on the sales of student season tickets for the last ten or so years? Does the Athletic Department publish those numbers?
wrigley field bleachers are general admission. you get funneled into either LF or RF. i don't see any chaos in finding seats. the people who want the best seats show up a couple hours early. the chaos usually starts around the 5th inning, once the beers kick in.
The difference between the Wrigley bleachers, and Michigan Stadium.
Michigan Stadium student sections:
But this does illustrate one thing about the student sections in Michigan Stadium (or, more correctly, Sections 28-31) that is different about most other sections: the mezzanine-style walkway at the level of the entry portals. That feature, unlike most other sections, allows fans to move between sections while inside the Stadium. That feature (and perhaps only that feature) makes a general admission policy seem barely workable, at least in Sections 28, 29, 30 and 31. No accounting for Sections 25, 26, and 32+.
The mezzanine walkways are a new feature, dating to the latest Stadium renovations. I had completely forgotten about their being in the student's corner They didn't exist when I was in the student sections.
Your Michigan stadium picture must be photoshopped. The student section is full ;)
It's late afternoon; you can tell by the shadows. Second half, no doubt.
btw; I had great trepidation about using that photo. Because it is water-marked with the photo credit -- Skypics of Ann Arbor -- but just so that there is no doubt about proper photo credit, here is the photographer's website; check it out for some nice aerial prints. By all means give them your support.
You're spot-on. GA is not a bad thing at all, unless you plan on showing up late and want to get top-notch seats despite that.
Many are wailing and gnashing their teeth, saying that they will have to arrive 3-6 hours early. Really? What friggin planet are they on? Emotionally-fueled hyperbole -- a classic tactic of petulant children since the dawn of time.
IMO, GA won't work. Some a-holes will send pledges at the crack of dawn to "reserve" the front rows and then the rest can show up much later and to fill in. Plus, Seems to me (from the pics) the problem is at the top of the stadium, and that GA won't fix that problem. I think you have to fix the entrance issues for the student section so that people can get in on time. Maybe a current student can comment on how long you'd have to wait in line to get into the section.
I agree with the students on the board that this GA change is bs for the seniors. That said, you're comenting on a Michigan blog in the spring, so I doubt you're part of the low/late attendance problem that this change is intended to solve. .
Some a-holes will send pledges at the crack of dawn to "reserve" the front rows and then the rest can show up much later and to fill in.
What is that on their maize-out shirts? A pledge pin?
Anybody care to explain the clamor for the bottom few rows of the student section? It is not a very good way to watch the game. If I were the first person in to the student section(s) on a Saturday morning, I'd go straight to Section 25, about row 40. I'd get to watch the entire game from a great seat. Instead of barely seeing it, and then hoping that the team would win and a player would jump up onto the wall in front of me for five seconds.
I fear that the new seating plan will have exactly the opposite effect from what is intended. MSU uses first-come, first-serve seating for its student section. The outcome is nearly always the same - an empty corner in the upper deck and a lot of rowdy drunks squeezed in well beyond capacity down below.
Now, there are no seats as crappy in Michigan Stadium as the corners of the upper deck in Spartan Stadium, but you'll still have people thinking: "I didn't get to the stadium in time to get a good seat, so why show up at all?" Instead of showing up late, they won't show up at all. And, you'll have other people thinking "I can't hang around long at the tailgate or I'll miss out on the good seats, so I better get good and hammered as fast as possible so I can get to the stadium on time." And then you have the problem that it's pretty much impossible to actually control how many people try to cram into the "better" sections of the stadium.
I don't have a good feeling about this.
If you really want the student section to fill up by kickoff, there's a pretty easy solution: drop all the restrictions on reselling the tickets.