Get there on time and get better seats Assholes!
Brandon: Students 50% late, 25% no-show. !
Here's an old video from 1995 (starts at the 5 minute mark) that talks about how student tickets declined from 20,000 to 16,000 in 1995 and what the problems were... 8-4 Seasons, DPS, No Alcohol, Basketball success etc.
i live in PA, i would love to go to michigan stadium every saturday that they play at home. i know your a student and have alot going on but i would think going to the BIG HOUSE for a few hours on saturday would be a great break from your studies
Check out Pitt at Heinz field on Saturdays. Seems like they have a lot of room for college football fans (\s)
I think the GA solution isn't going to solve the problem. It rewards the students who show up early, but to get people there on time we need a system that punishes those who show up late. Whether they dont get the reduced priced tickets or only partial season ticket package the following year, something needs to be done to force students to be on time.
I agree that we could go further, but at least there is the threat of not getting a good seat if you're not there on time.
You can get rid of the student section. Problem solved!
Not sure if serious?
I don't want to hear any more whining from the students about how RichRod killed their enthusiasm. Next year, only the seniors will have ever attended a RichRod-coached game, and that was in 2010 - Denard's breakout season - so it was exciting even if we played zero defense.
Our current students have been lucky as hell to see Michigan win 100% of its home games in football the last two years and like 95% of them in basketball. Memo to students: take full advantage of your opportunity to see two programs that are awesome at home. You have plenty of time to party after the game.
I agree you can't pin this on RR, the quality of opponent or even winning itself. I am seeing it happen more and more with hockey as well. When I was a student, it was packed before puck dropped. Now it takes until almost half way through the first period for most games for the section to fill up and most of the time not all of the seats do fill up.
It seems to be something more related to the student body than the performance on the field, ice or court.
anyone know if it's possible to watch the game in the student section but not be a student at michigan?
upcoming season will be different, but in the past you just had to get a ticket validated, which cost about $10-$30 I think depending on the game. Now, I have no idea if student will even get real tickets. They might just use Mcards to scan in at the gate.
I've done it several times.
Those numbers aren't even close to accurate.
How do you know? Do you have access to the data?
From what I observed last year (my seats are opposite the student section, so I have a good view of these things), the "50% late" thing sounds accurate for every game except MSU.
No, but I do have the gift of sight. I have to question whether you attended a single game last year if you think 50% of students were late to any one of them.
I think a significant percentage of the students were late to almost all of them.
No argument with that.
Anyway, your argument isn't with me or with anyone else on this Board, or even with MLive/Baumgardner.
Your argument is with David Brandon and his assistants who are charged with public relations for the Department. That's the big thing in all of this. It's coming from the Department.
You seem to be taking all this personally. If you were going to the games on time every week, good for you. Obviously, it's not every student's fault that this happened. But yes - I went to every game (I haven't missed a home game since 2004), and the student section was directly opposite me. The swaths of empty seats were hard to miss. MSU was the only exception to the pattern.
If you were in the section yourself, I don't know if you could grasp just how bad it looked. You should be able to see it for yourself if you watch the TV broadcasts from last year.
Well when people here continue to hate on the students as a group and repeatedly fail to recognize that the problem is caused by a small percentage of the student body, obviously people are going to take it personally. Most of the students are dedicated fans who show up on time. Unfortunately, many people in these threads can't understand this simple fact.
If it were truly only a "small percentage" that were late, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Small being a relative term. Obviously, it's a problem, and I have never denied this. But most students are good fans. And your argument that 50% were late to every game other than MSU is just plain wrong, and you can go look at photos if you don't believe me. I'll get you started:
That's Iowa from last year. Bad? Yep. 50% Nope.
A: Is that at the opening kick? We don't know.
B: We can't see the whole section, specifically the endzone sections which are almost assuredly more at risk to be empty.
C: I'd put that at 20-25% empty, which is still terrible. And that's Iowa, a great game. I challenge you to continue this argument with pictures of EMU as your evidence, though.
Dude, you've got to stop acting like this wasn't a problem. WolverineHistorian has this photo from last year. How full does it look to you?
How close to kickoff does it look to you?
And I have never acted like this isn't a problem. In fact, I have acknowledged that it is a problem in just about every comment I've made on this issue.
I sat in the south endzone last year. That's how the student section looked at kickoff at a lot of games. If you think everyone rushed in right at 12:00 you're kidding yourself.
The band is on the field! It might as well be 5 seconds from kick! In my 4 years I NEVER missed the band coming out of the tunnel, let alone a kick off!
Btw, this photo is obviously not from last year.
Yeah, those are the old scoreboards. But it is, however, pretty representative of how the student section has looked at kickoff at a lot of games lately.
That is pre-2008. There are no boxes, the video screen boards are there, there still is FieldTurf and not the Durasine used now. In fact, that is pre-2007 because of the white bar on the scoreboard.
That rotating bar that displayed messages like Go Blue and the title year was removed before the 2007 season in favor of a video bar.
If I had to guess, that looks like the 2006 Ball State game. Red and white band and low attendance. Attendance by students sucked late in the season. 2006 vs NW during Band Take The Field. Horrid weather but still no excuse.
Excuse my crappy disposable camera. This was before I let technology into my life.
Ghost is right, as a student I'll admit our showing has been shameful, but those numbers seem inflated. I'm in favor of the GA change, but Brandon is no different than a shrewd politician.
He's most likely getting ready to, perhaps rightfully, shrink the student section and he's going public with "numbers," legit or not, to generate support.
it could simply mean that 25% of the students missed at least one game; not necessarily 25% missing each game. similarly, 50% could be late to at least one game. i really doubt 50% were late every game. i attended all but one game this past year.
it was common for a few rows near the top in the corner to be unfilled, but i don't think that represents 25% of the student seats.
Ok, I get that this is on topic, and a valid problem. At the same time though, I cannot be the only one getting slightly tired of the bashing of current students on this blog. Should they show up on time? Absolutely. Is it annoying seeing the student section partially empty? Defnitely. But, it seems like the current students have garnered more ire on this blog over the past few months/year than have MSU And OSU. I understand the frustration, but it seems as though constantly beating this drum will only serve to create a wall between the current alums and current students, and may end up causing some current students to leave the MGoCommunity, which would be bad for everyone who enjoys this site. Instead of harping on it during the offseason, let's see if the new system works, and if it doesn't hope DB can figure out some other system to fix the problem, because seeing a new thread railing against the current student body every day is doing us no good.
-A Proud Alum, Go Blue
Fair enough, but I also think the students bitching about this and trying to circulate petitions should drop the fight. Both sides should give the new setup a chance.
The current students should have absolute priority seating. They are who are actually currently enrolled and who the team is actually playing for 1st and Foremost. The players aren't running and jumping in the old follks/rich guys section after a big win.
With GA they are treated 2nd class and they should be afforded the best. Their families are currently paying the tuition.
Priority seating created the clusterfuck of last season. Sorry guys, but you abused your privilege.
Wouldn't the 'clusterfuck of last season' have been created with random seating or anything else? Any assigned seating would cause students to lose motivation to get to the stadium early.
only students who are "bitching" about this are the upperclassman who have been going to games for the last two or three seasons and are losing the ability that all upperclassman before them had, which is a guarenteed seat lower than freshman and sophomores. I'm not sure how hard it is for some people to understand that if you patiently waited your turn, expecting that, if you pay your dues, you'd eventually get the seats that you should and "deserve" only to be told without warning or any kind of grandfathering in isn't really "fair". Students will have to show up very early, several hours probably for the OSU and ND games, just to get a decent seat. I think the current upperclassman, especially the rising seniors have a very valid point. They want to make sure the athletic department hears their voice on the issue, even if it doesn't change much. When ticket prices and donations for seats increase, should all the alumni and season tickets holders not be allowed to complain about that? As a current student, I will be showing up as early as I feel necessary to get a good seat for the games (hopefully rows 20-35), but the hostility on this board has been outright venomous at times towards the current students. I know I'm in the minority of students that actually cares and goes to the game to see every play of the game, and I know that the attendance last year was less that stellar, but this borderline hatred for the current students is not what this fanbase should be investing its emotions in and needs to stop. This isn't just directed at you, but I just felt it needed to be said.
In fairness, they should announce but delay the GA policy 2 years so that the upperclassmen don't get screwed.
aren't the uper classmen the ones who have been showing up late/not at all for the last 3 years?
This is exactly how I (a rising senior) feel about this subject.
only students who are "bitching" about this are the upperclassman who have been going to games for the last two or three seasons and are losing the ability that all upperclassman before them had, which is a guarenteed seat lower than freshman and sophomores.
I can understand this to some degree, but you should know that the system was always pretty weird about how it allocated seats. I was in Section 27 for both my junior and senior years despite the fact that everyone in my group (four of us) had the normal amount of credits each time. I think I would have preferred to have taken my chances with GA seating.
On a side note, why is there so much fascination with low seating? Yeah, you're close to the players for the postgame celebration thing, but otherwise your view sucks. I think it's perfectly fine to be 20-30 rows up.
Agreed that at times we're beating a dead horse but the students have really been slipping up. Attendance issues are well documented; also remember that they have been screwing up the wave for years. Something needs to light the fire under their asses.
The students have been pathetic for non prime games, and I am a current student. However given this fuck the Athletic Department for raising ticket prices to what they are. I understand comparatively to the rest of the stadium its a steal and blah blah its absurd that if a student wants to attend both football and either one of basketball or hockey they would have to pay over $500. I don't know about the rest of you but I had to pay for everything that wasn't tuition, that means rent, food, textbooks, and other such things. The AD is pricing out any student that isn't just funded by their parents, and my guess is that most of the people who didn't show up were the students who didn't have to pay for the tickets themselves and that won't change with a ticket increase. If the university cares more about money than students, just eliminate the student section, other than that this price increase does nothing but price out a portion of the student body.
I agree with you that student football tickets are getting dangerously pricey, considering that they constitute our future consumers. Many people have proposed this as a way of weeding out the casual fans (who are probably the most guilty when it comes to waltzing in late) but I don't know if I agree.
I don't think basketball or hockey ticket prices are that bad, though. Both teams played 18 regular-season home games this year, so at $200 for student season tickets, that works out to $11.11 a ticket. (If you count the preseason exhibitions, it's a little cheaper still.) That's not unreasonable.
have been buying basketball tickets for the past two seasons, and the tickets have pretty much doubled in price over that time. Yeah I get it, we were runners up, but doubling the price of tickets over a two year period is very drastic.
Basketball ticket prices were the same, or close to it, for a decade before the recent hike. Just as we ran the program on the cheap for a long time, we had ultra-cheap ticket prices. I don't think you can complain that much about the prices now because 1) they're still not that bad and 2) the arena is much nicer now that's it's been renovated.
for $99. So they've increased the price over 100%.
So you've gone from paying an absurdly cheap price (five bucks a game!) to a merely cheap price ($11/game). In return you've gotten a vastly better arena and program to cheer for.
If they continue to increase the price, OK, maybe then you can complain. But right now I don't think it's that bad. I do think the football student price is getting steep, though.
Having been to a game using GA, it would mean that the students would likely get a general ticket with no seating assignment and then they would show up to a special ticketing window/area to get their seating assignment on gameday.
My brother went to MSU while I was at UM, and they used to have two student sections. The general section and the "Corner Blitz." Corner Blitz students had generic tickets for which they paid more, and it entitled them to a seat lower in the bowl portion of the student section that went about halfway up the student section. They also had special shirts and would get small items at games to encourage more cheering (e.g. towels or other items). They abandoned the Corner Blitz by the 2007 season, but it was in place in 2005 when I went to the game in EL.
Students need to get their butts in seats or give up their seats to those PAYING to be waiting on the waiting list that is longer than the great wall of China.
And those using dumb excuses involving the 3 years of pain, newsflash, Michigan closed the book on the crap the moment they went 11-2 and won a BCS game the year after it ended.
That the guy all about journalistic integrity doesn't dig deep and check to see if low attendance to 2-3 games slants the stats and that low student attendance is symptomatic of poor scheduling
It wasn't 2-3 games. This happened every game except MSU. Any season-ticketholder can attest to this. Don't try to rationalize it. It was embarrassing.
Blame MLive.com, if you think that there was some bad reporting. Actually, I don't particularly care for the way that Nick Baumgardner wrote the story. But I am not going to blame Nick Baumgardner for reporting "50% late, 25% no-show," if those were numbers that Brandon or a Brandon-flack gave to Nick Baumgardner.
I don't see any room to flyspeck any "journalistic integrity" in this case. I even anticipated your complaint before you wrote it. Send your complaints about the accuracy of numbers to 1000 S. State Street.
If I had the money or grades to get into Michigan. My ass would be the first in line every home game, but that's just me and my obsession for UM football. I don't have the luxury of being able to see very many Michigan athletics games anymore, but whenever they come to Texas, I buy a damn ticket and show up.
I'll keep saying what I've said all along. The students brought this on themselves because a good chunk of them decided it was more important to drink than go cheer their team on. This is not Dave Brandon's fault. This is not the Greek community's fault. This is, as a whole, the student body's fault. As if you won't have plenty of other chances to get wasted in your collegiate career.
If drinking is your priority, then so be it, but then don't buy the damn tickets. Watch the game on TV, drink your ass off at home, and let someone whose willing to show up on time take your spot. I have zero sympathy for anyone out there who bitches about the new policy, yet is one of the many who show up late to the games, or worse yet, not at all.
I went to the UMass game and those games had a marked worse attendence than the conference games - hopefully the future years will be much better since we're playing more interesting match ups.
Paying a little more for tickets might work and keep a few of the non-serious types at the library. I don't know if this will have that great of an impact though since I find it hard to believe most students that are already paying what they pay for tuition are worried about a few extra bucks for football tickets. Kind of like skipping out on A/C in your new car to save $5 a month on your payment...
GA I think will make a pretty big difference though IMO. I was flying Southwest Air for a work flight this week and waiting to board I couldn't help but think about how this applied to the GA seating issue. Everyone in that line had a seat on the plane and was going to get where they were going, but everyone stood in that line for a good 20-30 minutes when they didn't have to just to make sure they had the best shot not to sit in a crappy middle seat. As UM alums and students we have to be competitive by nature...I just don't see everyone saying screw it and showing up late to take the middle seat. We will see I suppose...
"...is because they feel like they haven't made enough of a significant investment in the ticket."
That statement proves Brandon is just trolling us at this point. Does he really think we're stupid enough to believe that the increase in ticket prices is an attempt to get people to show up on time rather than a good old-fashioned money-grab? As Brian mentioned, the people showing up late or not at all probably aren't the people who are having trouble scraping together $250 to pay for season tickets (and who might be disuaded by an increase to $300). Those who are arriving late have zero skin in the game right now, and that isn't going to change by increasing the price by $50 - or any amount, for that matter.
DB will use this as a set up to shrink the size of the student section so he can sell more tickets for face value. Even he knows that he can not just shrink the student section without some plausible excuse.
But I'm not sure shrinking the student section will significantly reduce the ratio of late arrivals, or even no shows. There will still be people whose parents buy them season tix, or have money to burn on season tix to only attend a few games, or other irrational purchase decisions. As the university increasingly courts the more wealthy and privileged prospective students, this aloofness will likely continue.
No doubt: as with the validation stickers, this price increase and possible reduction in student seats is a petty cash grab.
How can you justify treating the schools actual students 2nd class? This is their school. The players are jumping into the students section after a big win. More students show on time than don't. Why the need to bash on 18-22 year olds. We all remember our college years. And remember, tip sports are a drawing card for some top students over a high ranking lsa school or an ivy. Don't deplete that advantage.
Not to mention the fact that the football players are, in fact, students. I hate to break it to the alumni, but once you graduate, nobody at Michigan gives a shit about you unless you're a big time donor. You're not a part of the University, you have nothing to do with the University, and from their standpoint, you're really only good for padding the employment statistics and getting gouged for tickets. I'm not saying it's right, but if you don't think that's how the University views you, you're crazy.
I would not suggest printing this post and bringing it to all your future interviews where you see all us alumni that are "not part of the University," according to you, that are making hiring decisions.
How can you justify treating the schools actual students 2nd class?
What you call "2nd class," I see as an opportunity to get good seats for yourself if you want it enough, and at a subsidized price (granted, not as cheap as it used to be, but still a lot cheaper than what the rest of us pay). As I mentioned above, I was in Section 27 for both my upperclass years even though I had a ton of credits - the system was far from perfect. You could sort of move around when I was in school, but still had to be sneaky about it. You don't have any worry about that now.
As an alumnus, I now have to pay a lot more money for my seats, which are opposite from the student section - I have the same crappy bleacher seat, at an angle that isn't any better than what students have. Moreover, I can't move down or over a section - I'll definitely get kicked out if I try. I'm already making a pretty significant donation, but If I want better seats at this point I have to pay a hell of a lot more. I would love for the non-student seats to be general admission. (I'd also love to be able to stand all game long, like the students can, but that's another topic.) Take advantage of this opportunity.
I hate this argument so much. Who put a gun to your head and is forcing you to buy football tickets? No one. We're you bitching about how unfair it was that you got to pay less when you were a student as opposed to anyone else? I highly doubt it. Stop throwing this argument out, you got the same benefit. You're buying a luxury item--get read to pay a luxury price and stop with that "Oh we pay so much more than you".
You need to see the post I was responding to.
I love Michigan football, so I'm willing to pay the price. But I think you have to graduate and go through the crap it takes to get tickets before you can appreciate how privileged students actually have it. After I graduated, I was on the waiting list for two years (which you have to pay for the "honor" of being on) before I got season tickets, in the endzone. I was then one section over from where I'd sat as a freshman. I've since gradually upgraded, but I've had to pay a lot more to do that.
Students should not complain about being treated like "2nd class citizens" when they're paying a lot less for a ticket that can potentially get them better seats than a lot of alumni. General admission is a great opportunity for the people who really care. I'm sorry I can't have it now. You'll have a very different opinion about GA seating at $30/ticket after you graduate.
GA > Assigned seats
When going to see Bruce Springsteen do you want to sit in an assigned seat or get GA tickets and stand where you like -- proximity to the stage/field and size of group are much more flexible. There is nothing second class about it-- it's better.
Could the Athletic Department actually oversell a GA student section? Let's just say that there are 22,000 "allocated" student seats in the Stadium. Could they sell 28,000, knowing the past behavior of no-show students? That 5,000-6,000 kids don't show up, and won't need a spot that they can oversell, to yet another student who will show? Like an airline.
I don't doubt the potential. Considering the students' ability to pack themselves into the lower rows like sardines, this could work even if they underestimate attendance on occasion. There would be a safety concern, as well as damage to the bleachers. In 2005 during the OSU game, on the last two enemy possessions, my group was screaming and jumping so vehemently that the bleachers collapsed under our feet. Not sure if they have been made stronger since, or what. Also, fire code concern, etc.
You may be on to something though. In general, i am with you that the logistics of filling and emptying the stadium and grounds of their patrons is a major issue that needs to be fixed.
The fire marshal would never allow that.
The fire marshall would not allow 28,000 students in a section that holds 22,000. But I don't think that the fire marshall has any visibility into how many tickets are sold.
If the AD sells 28,000 with the expectation that only 22,000 will show up, I don't think that the fire marshall knows about it. But if the AD mis-estimates and 28,000 show up, all hell breaks loose.
I don't see how you can oversell GA student tickets anyway, given that the student tickets are season tickets. Only 75% may show up for Central Michigan, but all 100% are going to want to show up for Ohio State. What are you going to do with the oversold students for that game? You can't just put them on "another flight".
and may make some things worse from a logistical standpoint. The only action that will cut down on the no-shows is to reduce the student section by at least 25%. It's obvious that supply is outstripping demand by a significant amount. It's bizarre to me that so many students would purchase tickets and then not attend, but then I'd bet the large majority of the no-shows aren't actually buying the tix—Mom & Dad are.
I'll be glad that I am nowhere near the GA fiasco when it plays out. I think it will cause problems and will solve little. But we'll see, won't we?
As for cutting down on the number of tickets allocated to students, let's make this real clear. Increasing the ticket prices now, in the amount and in the way that they are doing it, seems calculated to make fewer (casually interested) students order them. And so, I expect that Brandon expects that they will sell fewer student tickets.
^ prices = Fewer student tickets.
Two overriding thoughts on my part. One pro-student, and one anti-student.
Pro-student: Fix the entry-gate situation. I really don't think that the administrators get that part. Get people in quicker, off Keech Street and into the Stadium. That's the bottleneck.
Anti-student: Students, this is a new problem. Take it from me. I've been going to games longer than current students have been alive. Your level of tardiness and lax attendance is a new problem for Michigan football. The fact that it has become a problem, and requires a weird fix like General Admission, or an unpleasant fix like increased prices, or a ridiculous fix like glazed donuts from Coach Hoke, is an embarassment. We make fun of Sparty, and the Wisconsin Badgers, for shit like this. The Buckeyes are rightly having a laugh at our expense for this. Somebody else in an earlier thread put it rather well; this sort of public debasement should not be an issue for a power football program.
The marginally interested students are purchasing the tickets to get the Ohio State / ND / MSU games. The rest they just skip.
There needs to be an easier way for the students to sell those other tickets to people who really want them. Maybe a way to sell them back the the University who can then sell them on-demand to people who want to go. None of this combersome validation stuff.
I expect GA tickets will be more in demand than student tickets of yore, from a non-student perspective. Serious fans have an opportunity to get great seats in the most fun sections.
If Brandon is serious about attendance, he definitely has to abandon the validation stickers, or at least make them easier to get (on game day for example) to leverage this demand increase.
I was friends with a group of girls in undergrad (2005-2007) that bought tickets every year and couldn't be bothered to stay past halftime, if they made it at all. By mid-October they judged it far too cold to even attempt to go to games. They didn't sell their tickets, they just didn't go. I found it baffling that such people exist, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is actually a very common attitude.
It was about half full for the start of the MSU game last year. Students don't have room to gripe about GA when the SS is half empty by kickoff.
Yeah they do when it's their freaking school.
I beg your pardon, it is not "your school". The alumni have done way more than you. It is our school. You own nothing. It is the University's, state's, students', alumni and communities'. Not just the students.
I actually paid my own tuition. Did you? You sound like a petulant self-involved spoiled brat.
It isn't your school. You graduated. Nobody cares about you anymore unless you're rich. Sorry, but that's just reality.
Last I knew - tuition only covered about 1/3 of the cost of educating a student. The rest comes from state taxes, the endowment, and research and other university income streams.
The idea that students through their tuition are keeping the university alive is pink unicorn fantasy.
State taxes are like 5% of the budget. Also, we don't really use money from the endowment. Thus, those two points are moot and don't make a point. However, your other university income streams includes...wait for it...ALUMNI DONATIONS!
Ghost of Yost is an idiot and obviously does not understand how much alumni provide for this school. As an alumnus and current grad student it's frustrating to see all this banter from one side to the other. Both are just as important.
You're an idiot if you think that. This is OUR school. Both current and past students included. Sorry, but THAT is the actual reality.
make tickets free, set 10000 aside, or whatever number, first come first serve with you rmcard...
another issue I think is the ticket validation. I was in school 96-00 during that time we could sell student tickets or give them to buddies without any hassle. consequently less tickets were eaten.
So you want non-students to pay even more for their ticket? Great plan...
Why not? You do have a job right?
If you can't transfer the tickets, then you are going to have no-shows. I think Brandon wants the no-shows because he is going to oversell the tickets.
I think the ticket validation process hurts the student section more than any other factor discussed. It is the one thing that changed in the last ten years, it corresponds with the increase in student tardiness/absenteeism.
AND the validation process takes time, money and makes transfering tickets extremely difficult in the situation of say... Say I drank too much on a saturday morning, I could just give my ticekts to someone else hassle free back in the day, now there would be a process to go through, not that I know what that process is...
Have you ever met Dave Brandon? Just saying the word "free" in his presence immediately induces a violent seizure.
I've been fortunate to catch several games at The Big House, which is a chore living in Memphis now. By far my utmost favorite spot to catch a game is in the student section. Granted it was for The Night Game, but standing the whole game, cheering until my voice is gone, hugs and high-fives absolutely capped the night. I'm am a stand and cheer/yell kind of fan. I recently caught the Iowa game and was told "down in front". I'm sorry, just trying to support my team. I will always at least try to get tix in the student section for the game or two I catch a year.
What's wrong with GA? If a frosh wants to get there early to get a good seat because they're a big fan,etc, have at it!
Yay, another thread bitching at students. My favorite.
Yep. The group responsible for Michigan actually fielding a team and keeping the University in operation. What a bunch of assholes.
In what way are the students responsible for Michigan fielding a team beyond the fact that the athletes are students themselves? The athletic department is self-sufficient; all that tuition money isn't doing jack. I guess they're buying season tickets, but percentage-wise, with their limited numbers, reduced price, and lack of PSD/donations, I'd wager their contributions are minimal.
"In what way are the students responsible for Michigan fielding a team beyond the fact that the athletes are students themselves?"
Also, even if we ignore the fact that the athletes are students, it seems unlikely that a University would be able to field a football team if the University didn't exist.
You can't even make a logical conclusion from your own assertion. So do some simple math:
Let's pretend that 30k is designated to the SS. Each ticket is $30 each. Per game, that is 900k gross.
The remaining stadium has 79k at $90 per game. That is a $7,110,000 gross per game. That is 7.11 million peeps.
That is a nearly 7.3:1margin of difference between the gross revenue of the SS and everyone else. Do you see the difference now? Who exactly is the AD actually serving?
And just keep in mind something, my $90 per game cost for the other 79k seats isn't even close to what they actually gross since PSLs and luxury box cost weren't taken into consideration. Add conservatively another 1 million there. Making it closer to a 8:1 margin conservatively.
Finally, are 30k presumed student body buying merchandise, concessions, etc.?
This argument about who these games are for is laughable. It is about every cotton-picking Michigan fan, not just the students. The AD makes the big money off us Alumni who are addicted to this thing we call Michigan football. The fact anyone is debating it is shocking to say the least.
Get off my lawn!
~ 33 yrs young and crabby about it.
Without the students, there are no football players, and there is no university. I didn't think that was a difficult point to understand. Apparently I was wrong.
Young padawan, the University of Michigan has been in existence for how many years? How many years have we fielded a football team? How many SS problems have there been in the past with regards to half empty sections?
You have lost it. Maybe this discussion is over, because apparently you don't get it.
The University has been in existence since 1817, and the first football season was 1879. The SS has been a problem for, what, 6 or 7 years? Maybe more, I'm not really sure.
Anyways, back to the actual point being made, I'm not denying that it's a problem. My point was that without the students, none of this stuff exists, so it's a little silly to hate on them as a group.
Lay off the drink and drugs. Your brain is melting. You created a straw-man argument yourself by suggesting that the University is some how by Sept 1 going to dissolve both athletically and academically. How's your degree going to work out now? Guess you are transferring to MSU. OMG, charging GA into the SS is an aggravated act hell bent on wedging ties against this generation of SS and all living alumni and the university.
Straw-man...I am ashamed that you are a fan and potential alum of the university that I graduated from and have loved since I was five. I never would have acted like this. This wasn't an issue when I graduated in 2005.
What are you talking about? When did I say that the University was going to dissolve athletically and academically? I said that it would dissolve without students, which is true.
Look, I really don't care that much about the GA policy. Does it suck for me being a 7th year student? Sure. But I get it, although I do think it's shortsighted and ineffective. What I do care about is the constant, unwarranted animosity being directed torwards the general student body. It's annoying, uncalled-for, and the only explanation for it is a desire to assert some kind of bizarre superiorty over younger generations.
You're both acting like jerks, and eamus could stand to work on his reading comprehension. But (s)he probably wouldn't be in such a lather if Ghost weren't so committed to acting like a snotty, entitled brat every time this topic comes up. Maybe you should think about why so many alums think the criticisms are warranted, Ghost, instead of spending so much time whining about their being unfair.
This is probably the dumbest exchange I've ever read. Just get over yourself already, no one other than yourself cares that you graduated from here.
"Without the students, there are no football players"
have you watched ohio state??
This little argument (and I do regret very much the way that Brandon & Co. have gone public with the extent of the problem and the proposed responses) doesn't come in any sort of vacuum on the MGoBoard.
The students and others have been bitching about the alumni seated between the 20's for as long as this Board has been online.
It's time for those students and others to STFU. If they want to bitch, they can bitch about a part of the home-crowd that isn't even there, when the band comes out!
"Early is on time and on time is late!" Bo Schembechler said that.
I'd be VERY happy get this behind us, this year. The sooner the better. Like in the very first game with Central Michigan. Because this is just terrible press relations for the institution of Michigan football. I'm sort of sorry that Brandon chose to make such an issue out of it. I'm absolutely sorry that Brady Hoke and an Athletic Department intern turned it all into a very bad joke with a suggestion for glazed donuts broadcast via Twitter. Twitter; of course.
"I'd be VERY happy get this behind us, this year."
Is that why you started yet another thread about it?
But hey, since we're still generalizing, let me just say that the alumni are the shittiest, most worthless fans in the entire stadium. I'd much rather have a drunk sorority girl show up 10-20 minutes late and scream her head off for the rest of the game than some rich wine-toothed douchebag alum in section 2 sit on his overpriced seat-cushion all game long and golf clap anytime something good happens, occasionally mustering the strength to get off his fat ass for a 4th quarter game-winning touchdown.
Some students don't show up for the first half of the 1st quarter. Screw them. The rest of the stadium usually doesn't show up at all. I think it's time for everyone to stop starting threads about this, STFU, and let the athletic department do whatever the hell they're going to do.
I just wanted to lock this comment in before you had a chance to take a deep breath and re-read it.
You clearly haven't been in section two very often since I have the last two years. The older crowd of "down in front" is going away if not shunned for saying the last couple years. Air Force, NW and Iowa games, people where standing, clapping, and cheering a lot. Section 23-25 is pretty tame, but I sat in 24 for MSU and everyone was into that game.
You can keep pouting about what happen and try to make yourself feel better by degrading us alumni all you want. We will still buy more tickets than you, and still be here long after you are gone. Deal, seriously.
I don't doubt that alumni collectively buy more tickets than me considering I only buy one ticket.
But you completley missed the point of my comment. I don't actually believe that the picture I painted is an accurate representation of alumni. It was used to illustrate how stupid it is to generalize large segments of the fan base like students.
Student bashing on this site is ridiculous.
All I am hearing is sweeping generaliztions about all the students. "All the students are late" "All the students rip on the other sections" "All the students don't care"
Give me a break...
This GA policy is BS and it screws over all of next year's seniors, like myself. Students like myself are being punished for a minority of student offenders and the group of complaining alumni.
Sssshhhhhh! You'll wake Butterfield!
While I disagree with MLDWoody's hatred of the GA policy, I agree with his sentiment that this site is full of a bunch of assholes who have absurd "get off my lawn" attitudes when it comes to student attendance.
Whether it's bitching about Michigan students painting the Sparty statue since "Michigan is classier" than that (despite college pranks being prevalent at Cal Tech, Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc), or complaining that students are late to games after sitting in 25 minute lines to get into the stadium, you guys seriously need to chill.
As people so informatively showed above, students werent showing up on time, if at all, 15 years ago. If they want to lower student tardiness, have more late afternoon / night games or fix the stupid gate system so you dont have 60% of the crowd going in 25% of the turnstiles.
We'll all be on time when we grow up, have families, and dont want to take advantage of those 6-7 gameday party mornings per year. Then we can be like the rest of you, SIT on our CUSHIONS for 93% of the game, and contribute towards Michigan stadium being the quietest big stadium in the country.
Get off my lawn.
You just wanted to thank me for pointing out to Brandon & Co. (yes, they are reading) that the GATE 10 perimeter backup was the most serious bottleneck in getting students into their "seats."
I dont understand why people dont just use the other gates? There are atleast 3 other gates on the north end of the stadium alone. Is it really that difficult to walk up the hill a little ways and enter a different gate? I used to do it for every game and instead of waiting in a bottleneck I was in the stadium in less than 5 minutes.
I really dont understand what is so hard about that.
I disagree with a lot of what you say, but you obviously have a brain and provide information. While it was your thread, it wasn't intended for you.
I've been attending games since 81 when I graduated. I've had season tickets since 89 and recently moved into Section 2. I can tell you I scream, yell, jump on the seats and do everything in my power to make as much noise as humanly possible. I stand most of the game and have had "down in front" yelled at me more times than I care to remember. And I drive three hours one way from Cleveland for the priviledge of doing so.
Over the past several years i have had an excellent view of the student section slowly wither in attendance and its candidly embarrassing. Yes you guys make more noise than we do. Yes you yell louder than we do. Which is exactly why I HATE the fact the students have seemingly stopped giving a shit about football or at least showing up on time for games. It sickens me to see fields of empty seats for the beginning of games and for many Saturday's I'll watch and wonder if they'll fill in.
The "golf clapping' blue hairs around make more noise yelling "down in front" than the empty seats do.
As an alumnus who has the misfortune of living over 1000 miles away from Ann Arbor, I haven't attended a game at Michigan stadium in nearly 30 years. I do think the rising seniors and juniors who have been showing up to games on time all along have good reason to complain about the change. I would also say that those who frequent a blog like this and take the time to post are not the ones creating the problems that posters have been complaining about, whether student or alumnus.
What year did the Athletic Department switch to guaranteeing any student a ticket if they wanted it but only allowing actual students in with the student tickets? Did that coincide with the dwindling student section attendance issues? I attended all of the home games as a student from 1996-1999. I do not remember any attendance issues in the student section at all. However, I do remember a lot of "casual student fans" who had tickets that hardly ever ended up at the games. The difference was, they could sell the tickets to other students who had friends or relatives who wanted to go to the games and they didn't have to get the tickets validated or prove they were actual students. Maybe the Athletic Department should consider raising the price on the student tickets but allow the students to give/sell tickets to friends/relatives/other students without any ID/Validation needed so that Michigan fans end up in the seats. Also, with additional security added at the gates and tunnels, it takes even longer for fans to enter the stadium than it used to. The whole process has never been very efficient but it is worse than ever the last several years. I would say this issue slightly adds to the late arrivals. I do hope the problem can be solved and that students who want to get tickets to the games can still get them. I will never forget my 4 years in the student section. I still love going to the games but nothing will beat the times I had during those 4 years at the Big House. Watching Woodson, Brady, undefeated at home against ND, MSU, and OSU during that time and a National Championship didn't hurt either. Go Blue!!!
Why do people care about people showing up late? I get the sentiment about no-shows, those are tickets that someone else could use. But showing up mid-first quarter, particularly with the huge bottlenecks to enter the stadium, why is that a big deal?
The sense I've gotten from all these threads is that there are two sentiments at work here in the people bothered by this:
1. It makes Michigan look bad to others. This is generally expressed either as looking bad on TV or creating opportunity for other fans (mainly from OSU or MSU) to make fun of Michigan. As for the TV presentation, I'd think that only people looking for empty seats are going to notice them. If they fill in by the end of the first quarter, 1% of viewers are going to remember that. (What does look bad and gets remembered is when there's red all over the stadium, as in 2009). And OSU and MSU fans are going to write scUM (hur, dur) and talk about Walverines no matter what happens. Why get upset about donuts? They're going to make fun of Michigan because it's in the nature of being a rival, the same way people pull out Ufer's truck driver quote or the cooler pooper story at any opportune moment.
2. It strikes people as not the proper behavior for Michigan fans. This comes out through both reminiscences of one's own experiences in the student section (though that photo of huge amounts of empty seats in the mid 2000s earlier in the thread makes it seem like the memories are particularly hazy here). And if your reminiscences of your own time in the student section are about empty upper sections, that's sad. And it also comes out of a set of practices that a proper Michigan fan should follow: in seat by the time the band takes the field being the most prominent. But there are lots of different kinds of fans in all the sections. There are people rabid about football, there are people there to socialize, there are people who go because their husband/wife likes to go, there are band people, there are people on bucket list trips, there are people new to the area. Trying to dictate a standard set of practices, beyond perhaps singing the victors, particularly one based on being at a certain place at a particular moment, is totally futile. Moreover, the nature of this objection seems to be about the offense people take to their own personal sensibilities. I don't get why a section that largely fills in by the end of the first quarter becomes the particular target of this offense-taking.
The no-shows, I totally get, because there's an experience gone wanting. People late to the game? Not worth the agita.
*Note: I graduated in 2003 and have been to maybe 5 games since then, so this is far from a defense by a current student.
and keep it GA. If the student section is full, you'll make sure you're not late the next time
John U. Bacon nails the problem, required reading IMO.
More students care less.
Losing seasons can't keep a student section full, but more importantly, and the trend we'll see in the future is if fewer kids are seeing games in the Big House...fewer kids are going to see games in the Big House.
It's that simple. Price families out of the stadium, and you price a strong slice of your future fan base. (Yes, many people get into M football only when they come to school, but they're supported by several lifetime fans that reinforce the tradition.)
I disagree with JUB on this one. My parents weren't priced out of the stadium but they didn't want to go. The games weren't on TV in those days so I used to listen to them on the radio. It didn't make me want to go less - it made me want to go more. The problem isn't the price or the students. The problem is that the students need to buy a season pass and they either have to use the ticket or be a no show. The validation system prevents the sale of student tickets other than to the most popular of games. If the general public couldn't sell or even give their tickets away, then I guarantee the rest of the stadium would start to look like Sections 26-33.
Here's the thing that nobody has really acknowledged:
If you are a senior that is not part of the problem, then this really shouldn't affect you!!! The Stadium is not going to be full an hour before the game. There will be no line unless you want a seat in the front 10 rows. You'll be able to comfortable get into the gates 20 minutes before kick and get a seat in row 30. Which very likely could be a seat better than what your assigned seat would be.
Want to be closer? Ok, then maybe you eschew tailgaiting and show up early (as in prior to the doors opening 90 minutes before kick). That's your choice. You don't have to do it and if you choose not to, you can still get a great seat 30 minutes before kick off.
When did getting into the stadium 30 minutes prior to kick become such a terrible tragedy? Is another game of beer pong (and yes I'm assuming your beer pong game will last 30 minutes because I am an alumnus and you are students and apparently I am supposed to think you suck at all things. When I was a student our beer pong games lasted 4 minutes and basically if you missed once you lost /ALUMNI'D) worth getting a seat in row 60 versus row 30? If so, then that's your choice.
The point is, you have the choice to arrive on time. If you do, you'll be fine. If you arrive at any point "early" (as in 30-45 minutes) then you will probably be able to get into row 20, save the biggest game(s) of the year. And if you're not willing to get to the stadium 60 minutes early for OSU or ND or other huge games, then that's again your decision.
Also, I'll make one more point:
I graduated from grad school in 2010 when Obama spoke. Because of security we had to be IN OUR SEATS 90 minutes prior to the President arriving and the ceremony beginning. You know what happened?
WE HAD A FUCKING PARTY. It was a blast, people were dancing and singing and going crazy in gowns. People were tweeting up to the big screens and it was a general blast. And that was a huge group of sober people having a blast. Throw in some effects from tailgating and a pre-game MMB show to watch, and I have no sympathy for SOME students complaining about losing "precious" tailgaiting time.
You went to graduation sober? The best part of graduation was tailgating at our house before heading over. I look absolutely ridiculous in that picture they used to take of you in your cap and gown heading in.
I went to the general commencement when I finished grad school sober. Well, I had a couple celebratory shots. But there weren't a ton of people that were flat-out intoxicated in 2010, at least in the area I was in. I know I decided that hey its the sitting President of the United States (whose election the majority of campus greatly celebrated, including an impromptu parade down State and Sout U) I think I want to be pretty sober for this.
Undergrad commencement was a different story.
I was really just joking. I also went to grad school graduation sober.
I agree with all this. And I understand why people get upset at the apparently large number of student no shows. What I don't understand is why the decision some people make to arrive late offends so many people on here? Why do people care so much that the student section be full at kickoff that they seem personally offended if its not?
If anything, the new seating rules, if they work, will have the advantage of roughly sorting different types of fans into different areas of the student section. You're likely to have the die-hard fans (and the "look at me" fans) down low. In the middle 30 rows, you're going to have the people who arrive hit the entry gates 15-30 minutes before kickoff (and will likely still be filtering in when the game starts). The top 30 rows will be mainly social fans, die hard tailgaters/beer pongers, and those too drunk to stand.
The downside is that the inevitable confusion owing to GA is likely to mean the student section is even less full at kickoff for non-premium games.
I don't get it, and I don't see how GA will dictate a full student section before kickoff. Like you, I can see how GA will make it even more chaotic to get students into rows before kickoff. So no, I don't get it.
All that I can surmise is that the overarching strategy is to make it a more effort-filled experience for students, in the hope that the more casual fans in the student ranks just won't purchase tickets in the first place. Freeing up more tickets to be sold to members of the public who have been so hungry for tickets that they will pay to be on a waiting list. (Although even that part isn't perfectly sensible. They have surely now allocated and assigned all of the PSD-level season tickets. If there is a falloff in student tickets such that there are a couple thousand leftovers, I expect that those would be sold as package and single-game tickets. The Ticket Office must have some longer-term plan for ticket sales; and once you take somebody's money for a season-ticket subscription with a PSD, you are sort of committed to them, long-term.)
In anny event, we should know long before the gates open for Central Michigan in August, what sort of effect the new student-section policy (ies) will have. Will the increased ticket prices, combined with GA, dissuade enough casual student-fans from buying tickets in the first place?
We should know soon enough. Does anybody have numbers on the sales of student season tickets for the last ten or so years? Does the Athletic Department publish those numbers?
wrigley field bleachers are general admission. you get funneled into either LF or RF. i don't see any chaos in finding seats. the people who want the best seats show up a couple hours early. the chaos usually starts around the 5th inning, once the beers kick in.
The difference between the Wrigley bleachers, and Michigan Stadium.
Michigan Stadium student sections:
But this does illustrate one thing about the student sections in Michigan Stadium (or, more correctly, Sections 28-31) that is different about most other sections: the mezzanine-style walkway at the level of the entry portals. That feature, unlike most other sections, allows fans to move between sections while inside the Stadium. That feature (and perhaps only that feature) makes a general admission policy seem barely workable, at least in Sections 28, 29, 30 and 31. No accounting for Sections 25, 26, and 32+.
The mezzanine walkways are a new feature, dating to the latest Stadium renovations. I had completely forgotten about their being in the student's corner They didn't exist when I was in the student sections.
Your Michigan stadium picture must be photoshopped. The student section is full ;)
It's late afternoon; you can tell by the shadows. Second half, no doubt.
btw; I had great trepidation about using that photo. Because it is water-marked with the photo credit -- Skypics of Ann Arbor -- but just so that there is no doubt about proper photo credit, here is the photographer's website; check it out for some nice aerial prints. By all means give them your support.
You're spot-on. GA is not a bad thing at all, unless you plan on showing up late and want to get top-notch seats despite that.
Many are wailing and gnashing their teeth, saying that they will have to arrive 3-6 hours early. Really? What friggin planet are they on? Emotionally-fueled hyperbole -- a classic tactic of petulant children since the dawn of time.
IMO, GA won't work. Some a-holes will send pledges at the crack of dawn to "reserve" the front rows and then the rest can show up much later and to fill in. Plus, Seems to me (from the pics) the problem is at the top of the stadium, and that GA won't fix that problem. I think you have to fix the entrance issues for the student section so that people can get in on time. Maybe a current student can comment on how long you'd have to wait in line to get into the section.
I agree with the students on the board that this GA change is bs for the seniors. That said, you're comenting on a Michigan blog in the spring, so I doubt you're part of the low/late attendance problem that this change is intended to solve. .
Some a-holes will send pledges at the crack of dawn to "reserve" the front rows and then the rest can show up much later and to fill in.
What is that on their maize-out shirts? A pledge pin?
Anybody care to explain the clamor for the bottom few rows of the student section? It is not a very good way to watch the game. If I were the first person in to the student section(s) on a Saturday morning, I'd go straight to Section 25, about row 40. I'd get to watch the entire game from a great seat. Instead of barely seeing it, and then hoping that the team would win and a player would jump up onto the wall in front of me for five seconds.
I fear that the new seating plan will have exactly the opposite effect from what is intended. MSU uses first-come, first-serve seating for its student section. The outcome is nearly always the same - an empty corner in the upper deck and a lot of rowdy drunks squeezed in well beyond capacity down below.
Now, there are no seats as crappy in Michigan Stadium as the corners of the upper deck in Spartan Stadium, but you'll still have people thinking: "I didn't get to the stadium in time to get a good seat, so why show up at all?" Instead of showing up late, they won't show up at all. And, you'll have other people thinking "I can't hang around long at the tailgate or I'll miss out on the good seats, so I better get good and hammered as fast as possible so I can get to the stadium on time." And then you have the problem that it's pretty much impossible to actually control how many people try to cram into the "better" sections of the stadium.
I don't have a good feeling about this.
If you really want the student section to fill up by kickoff, there's a pretty easy solution: drop all the restrictions on reselling the tickets.