Tat gate was a legal issue prior to the NCAA getting involved. The FBI was investigating the tattoo parlor. Let's see, coach covers up a free tattoo, coach covers up the rape of 10+ children. Tattgate gets a bowl ban and 3 years probation, and the NCAA ignores the lack of institutional control a PSU? The NCAA has backed itself into a corner on this one. They are slow to react. They will come out with a ruling in December after the regular season is done. I am not sure what they will do, but if they go by their own definition, this is lack of institutional control in the worst possible case. If they still use the death penalty, then my guess this would be the appropriate time to use it.
Bob Costas on Meet the Press: 'Death penalty' for PSU football.
I'm not sure what purpose that would serve. If you want them to lose money, just fine them.
...might be more effective in sending a message to other schoolsand deterring similar coverups than just a financial penalty. Whether it's to buy out a contract, build a new facility, or cover up some sin, it seems that major football programs don't have that much difficulty finding someone to write a check.
But it's hard to market and monetize a football team that doesn't exist.
I think the true deterent here is the hell PSU has been in, and will continue to reside in, in our society. They have lost millions of dollars in lost donations, (assumed) loss of applicants to the school, and a certain loss in prestige.
A financial penalty or penalty to the football program offers little deterent in comparison.
Penn State received the second highest amount in athletic donations ever this past year and applications are up as well.
Possibly their best recruiting in 15 years...
The donations do seem a little unique, but as the NYT article noted about overall applications, that may be due as much to the relatively low cost for attending PSU and the financial situation many people find themselves in. I'm not saying people are applying simply for this reason, but knowing that a major state school with some good academic programs is significantly less than other options probably doesn't hurt, especially given how more and more students are taking out loans to cover school when families are unable. I would also posit that at least some of these applications may be from individuals who find it "fun" or "edgy" to apply to PSU given the scandal. Let's see how many people actually accept offers to attend the school before proclaiming that this has not affected the quality of applicants.
and I don't necessarily disagree with any of them, just wanted to note that my post only noted that their applicant pool didn't drop in numbers, like the post above mine said they might have.
Good points by you. Nice to see some civility here.
Also, I think applications may be up a bit because of overall population growth. I remember reading somewhere that for the next year or two, the sheer number of college-aged kids will be at its peak, and thus more kids will be applying everywhere.
the NCAA does not consider first-hand knowlege of sexual assault to be a suitable on-campus learning activity. Please don't do it or we will punish your sports programs.
If it takes the NCAA to send that message there is no hope for society regardless of their actions.
It's not about the money. Leave that to the lawyers. This is about doing the right thing.
Doing the right thing for whom? Honest question - for the victims? I doubt they'll care if people unrelated to what happened to them can't play football? For the opposition? For the fans? - none of whom are guilty of the crimes, who didn't know it happened and are rightly appalled by knowing it occurred. Or for the media and the anonymous internet denizens who love to see people suffer to right some cosmic wrongs that the universe keeps score of?
PSU is going to be a shell of a football/school for years because of this from a PR standpoint, and I think that will be enough.
I'm not so sure about that. PSU apparently received a record (or near-record) amount of donations last year, and they currently are recruiting very well in football. They've taken a defiant stance, keeping the statue up and even selling JoePa merchandise, and it seems to be working for them. I'm personally shocked at the lack of outrage from within that community itself - I'm sure that if this happened in Ann Arbor, it'd be another story. I guess the cult of Paterno is so strong that even the events of the past year can't shake it.
I'm not disagreeing with the results in the short term, but in the long term my guess is that PSU feels the burn. It is one thing for people to think the events took place in a small vaccuum; with the report coming out basically indicting major swaths of the university's administrative staff, my guess is that there will be a backlash.
As for the statue, I suspect that will come down. It just brings up too many bad feelings for the university, and undue media pressure for a school on the rebound. As for recruiting, we've seen that it tends to take the hit the year after the major event occurs (see recruiting under RR), so the tail end of this year plus next year's recruiting may still feel the pain.
It's not over until it's over. The PSU community has far from swallowed the ugliness of this scandal. Honestly that stadium needs to go idle if not to rubble. Football just isn't anywhere near as important as the movers and shakers in this scandal took it. USC is suffering? PSU is well into recovery mode football wise. This needs to be reset.
Do the right thing by the victims past and future of child abuse. This is a teachable moment.
I wouldn't want Michigan football to exist if it meant raping one child. I think MSC understands that. PSU allowed multiple kids to be raped and the consequence is what? Football doesn't mean this to me. Football doesn't mean this period. That the new leadership at PSU doesn't get that makes me sick. It's time for a safety stand down.
Based on everyone we've actually learned, the number of people who knew what happened is incredibly small - a handful of people who direct knowledge who let this occur. This isn't a "culture" of football winning out - townspeople didn't allow this to happen. The police didn't fail to respond. This is a story of a small number of people with a vested interest allowing horrible crimes to occur, and then a small percentage of idiots on campus spouting off drunken ramblings and the media treating them as representative of everyone.
Again, I get that people are troubled by what happened at PSU, but blowing it up won't change anything. Nobody needs to be taught that child rape is bad; if anything, this shows the need for a better system to handle crime reporting. That can be accomplished without blowing up PSU.
"who didn't know it happened and are rightly appalled by knowing it occurred."
Not appalled at the occurrence itself, but at knowing it occurred.
Do you honestly think the vast majority of PSU fans (both in Happy Valley and outside) feel PSU is not guilty? Sure, there are always going to be some wackos who ignore reality, but from what I've seen the vast majority of the fans and alumni have come to grips with the atrocities that happened under Sandusky, and while they don't believe that it will forever stain their memories of PSU or its non-football stature, certainly understand the ramifications and what it means for the teams they cheered.
The media coverage has elevated the extremely small minority who continue to believe Paterno is a saint as a major block of the fandom, but that clearly isn't the case.
Whereas the Death Penalty would cause all the other schools in the B1G to lose money from our sharing arrangements for tickets unsold and games not aired on tv. Even moreso for Penn states traditional rivals Pitt and Syracuse. But Section 1 is right. Bob Costas is an expert in these things, lol.
but Pitt hasn't played Penn State since 2000, and PSU isn't on the schedule again until 2016.
I think the 1 year ban is more an ethical argument than a punative one.
Personally if this does come to pass, I think state & the ncaa should allow the athletes a pentalty free transfer or the option to stay and wait out the year for free (paid through their endowment)
.. that is, if any of their endowment is left after they get sued into the stoneage.
When SMU got the death penalty wasn't that punishing kids that had nothing to do with the charges?
No because they all got to transfer on the spot, or stay and enjoy their free education. And their eligibility remains intact.
were actively involved in the cheating process itself by being on payroll.
And many of them didnt.
Gotta say since moving to Pitt this winter i am shocked by the amount of people on the air from here who are for this. Alot of the arguement is joepa helped cover this up in 2001 when he was in the midst of catching bryants record of wins. Another one is that football is not as important as life and to suspend it for a year sends that message that their priorities are changing. I could care less but i find it ofd how many ppl here are for it. Its all thats on the radio every second.
The first modern death penalty for a major college football program was an interesting development in practice. I do recall, that after they let all the players transfer and the death penalty year was over, they found it hard to put together a team that wouldn't be physically endangered on the field. It was a bunch of freshmen and undersized recruits; I think that they were suffering under scholarship limits as well.
In any event, the one-year death penalty turned into about a 20-year demotion to minor college status.
The NCAA may have learned something; either that there can never again be a death penalty or else they need to do it differently.
That is true, but SMU and PSU are very different schools with very different athletic programs too, so id expect a much quicker recovery if this did somehow happen.
The adjustment from professional to amateur status may have had a bit to do with the decline in quality too.
A 20 year demolition to minor college status sounds about right for PSU's football program. The Big Ten should just boot them out anyways.
...is how adamant Bobby Bowden is about aggressive penalties for the program. He's an individual who would do well to stay out of this discussion.
and quick to attack Joe-pa. I'm not saying that Bowden is wrong, but people have to remember that Bowden has a pony in this race, considering it's Joe-pa that prevented Bowden from the all-time wins coaching record.
Man, I'd been thinking the same thing. Inasmuch as Bowden may be right, you just can't take what he says at face-value. He's got a big horse in the race; it's kind of embarrassing. I cringe at all the faint praise and backhanded compliments he sends Joe's way.
I'd be upset too if a guy chose to win games instead of saving childhoods.
The question nagging me is what happens to the teams with PSU on their schedule? Little late for a pickup game no?
Whatd they do for teams with SMU? Theyd obviously figure something out.
That's really the nagging question?
Yes willy will. Shockingly I have a solid grasp on what happened and am now considering future implications. Specifically how and if it would challenge our schedule. Nothing about this nags me... Dude touched kids, got caught ( to late ) dude goes to prison, others will be punished as well.. Case closed. Shit happens in life, im not surprised at anything anymore, been happening in the church for a long time, humans are largely, morally over estimated. Moving on and wondering how it will effect our team. Pretty cynical i get that but i don't have the time or empathy to worry about others, i focus on "me and mine".
It's not about punishing the right people or forcing payment where due - it's about resetting the priorities of a system gone whacko. I don't get the lack of action here. It seems very straight forward. 3-4 years of no football at PSU is better like it. What happened there is sick.
The athletes can transfer and play immediately wherever they want without regard to scholarship limits at any school that is not currently under punitive restriction: The PSU - no child left behind limit exception.
Most games missed could be made up in season (there is likely some idleness due to bye weeks) or soon after due to the exception that this truly is.
Make it so. Somebody needs to step up here...PSU, the B1G, the NCAA - the teams who scheduled PSU. There isn't any doubt as to what happened at this point.
Thank you TSS. I don't see how this is so difficult for some people to see.
The inestigation was worthless.....emails weren't released and findings were on interview conversations that weren't detailed, written down and released but very publically laid blame at joepas feet............
Joe is guilty, I'll say that........but the majority of guilt lies at the feet of the former president and head of campus police...........jmo, they did have the power to tell joe what was what..... I also feel it was all about protecting a life long friend and nothing to do with protecting football.....
No. By most accounts, Paterno and Sandusky did not like each other much. This was all about the football program.
Remember that Spanier, Schultz and Curley were apparently building some sort of case to take to the authorities in 2001, but it was after a conversation with Paterno that Curley claimed to be "uncomfortable with the next steps", so nothing was done.
Yes, technically they were his superiors, but Curley was essentially hand-picked to be the AD by Paterno when they joined the Big Ten, and Spanier probably wanted to avoid the public relations nightmare that they are now experiencing. Even a janitor was afraid of reporting what he saw because he feared for his job - it is very clear now that the program was thought to be untouchable even by the university itself and to say otherwise would mean your end, not the program. When there is such a culture of fear and no one feels empowered to use good judgment, then something's - no, someone's - shadow looms far too large. Things are not in control at this point.
This is a school where success was valued more than the individual, where the priorities were completely opposite of what they should have been. It was about protecting the success of the program and avoiding the negative publicity - there is no other feasible explanation for why a former DC with emeritus status and access to facilities should be handled almost politely despite his crimes and no thought was given to the lives he had essentially destroyed.
I do tend to agree with some people here - this is about resetting priorities, and the only real way to do this in the case of Penn State may be to remove - for a time - the conflicting priority. It seems to me that, so long as there is continuity in the presence of the program, then there will always be a connection to, well, this. A clean start after a break may serve the school better.
Uh, who do we want from PSU? Imagine the feeding frenzy if suddenly every PSU player was back on the market. You might as well have a "job fair" with every coach from the B1G, Big XII (10), SEC, Big East, ACC, MWC, MAC, Sunbelt, EPL, La Liga, and WWE attending to pitch their programs.
And, I mean, while I'm hopeful someone will impose the death penalty (or at least kick them out of the B1G), there is one element of unfairness to the kids. Not every program has space for these kids. Trying to fit about 85 kids into the rest of Division I programs of similar ilk to PSU is not so easy, I wouldn't think. I mean, saying you can be free to transfer, but only Rice and Temple have available scholies, isn't quite fair. While all the big programs have a FEW available scholies, it's going to be a really circus for all the kids to land. Maybe NCAA could say, a school can take 3-5 kids and the scholies won't count against the 85.
Death penalty is not warranted in my opinion. That, like Wolverine pointed out would drastically effect hundreds of people who had no involvement in this matter and frankly knew nothing of it.
No one is arguing there will not be collateral damage. But if there is any community that deserves the excess damage, it would be the cult that worships JoePa and PSU football. It is that culture that fostered this coverup. Additionally, the student riots after Paterno was fired, the continued support after the Freeh report and the reluctance to take down that statue all underscore the lack of insight possesed by the bulk of that community. They need to get rocked to the core to make them appreciate the gravity of what happened.
The problem is that they can't process and come to terms with the fact the last 60 yrs of their way of life was based upon a farce.
Rule. We don't speculate or take glee in situations like this. We shouldn't be thinking about our gain from someone else's horrible situation.
For this reason, I'm guessing the B10 would enforce its policy about in-conference transfers. Let the PSU kids go anywhere they like, immediately -- but not within the B10 (unless the kids are willing to pay their own way). A B10 feeding-frenzy would reflect terribly on the conference, which definitely doesn't need more bad PR.
Or, in order to be as generous as possible to the innocent PSU players, maybe let them transfer in-conference if the kids are first willing to sit out a year.
He made the point that it would be unfortunate for the players and coaches if that happened, but "there's always collateral damage when you punish a program." And that you can allow players to transfer and coaches to get paid to mitigate that. That ignores the fact that there are FAR more more people besides players and coaches that depend upon PSU football that would be punished, dozens of small businesses in Happy Valley that depend upon that revenue, dozens of employees that work directly or indirectly for the program, not to mentiion that students at the school that directly benefit from the money that football brings in.
If you substituted any other business or organization, whether it's XYZ Corp, Happy Valley Pizza, or the Catholic Church, for the words "PSU football program," with the exact same circumstances, and the management involved in the decsions were fired or died, no other business with be closed by any other governmental body, and none of those businesses would be in jeopardy of being closed by outside forces. None. But somehow it's ok to do so with PSU. It's not. They should suffer, and they will suffer--the civil lawsuits alone will damage them severely--just like any other organization. Closing them down will pile up more injustice on top of the injustice that exists.
The NCAA is not a "governmental body". It's a voluntary association of colleges and universities with certain requirements for membership. The NCAA giving Penn State the death penalty is more analogous to a fraternity's home office revoking a charter than it is to the IRS seizing property. The ability to use coercive force is a huge distinction that isn't at play here.