Like to parrot the words, but don't really follow up on it, ready to abandon "the team" the first chance thy get.
spoiler alert: i linked this
Like to parrot the words, but don't really follow up on it, ready to abandon "the team" the first chance thy get.
If we get voting back, I owe you one.
Well, you know, fans aren't exactly on the team. So there's that small difference.
They like to pretend they are a part of the team when we are winning. When everything is going great they have something to do with it, or helped in some small way. They ARE Michigan football. However, when things are down they're the first to give up and abandon ship. To start critcizing the players and coaches. They don't have anything to do with Michigan. It's not "their Michigan" any more.
Taking focus away from where it should be, to try and label fans who are understandably frustrated at this point as fairweather is nonsense.
You're implying that I'm talking about "understandably frustrated" fans and not raging, irredeemable douche bags.
Focus should be put on them. A hell of a lot of it.
Fans can't control what happens on the field, but they can control how they conduct themselves.
"We are Mar-shall"
Who should be criticized then?
People deserving of criticism.
LOL that is hilarious.
Anyone who wants a coach fired is now not a "true fan."
Come on everyone, you must be for 6 yards total offense a half or you aren't a fan!
Or you can be like IPFW and misrepresent everyones arguments, and/or take them out of context! Yay!
Ya, out of context, except that nothing I said is out of context to what you posted. Especially when considering what you post in every thread supporting Borges and company.
Ya, out of context, except that nothing I said is out of context to what you posted.
OK, let's review...
Anyone who wants a coach fired is now not a "true fan." Come on everyone, you must be for 6 yards total offense a half or you aren't a fan!
There is literally nothing in my post about being a true fan. Nothing. Not one single thing. There is also nothing about offensive schemes and the criticisms thereof. You've totally misrepresented what I've stated and made it into something that it is not. What I said was:
They like to pretend they are a part of the team when we are winning. When everything is going great they have something to do with it, or helped in some small way. They ARE Michigan football. However, when things are down they're the first to give up and abandon ship. To start critcizing the players and coaches. They don't have anything to do with Michigan. It's not "their Michigan" any more.
I even further expounded upon this in a response stating:
You're implying that I'm talking about "understandably frustrated" fans and not raging, irredeemable douche bags. Focus should be put on them. A hell of a lot of it. Fans can't control what happens on the field, but they can control how they conduct themselves.
Again, still nothing about being a true fan. Nothing in there at all about how you can't criticize anyone. I believe what I said can be summed up thusly, "Don't be a raging, irredeemable douche bag." To suggest I've said anything otherwise by those posts is to blatantly misrepresent what I've stated. To take those posts and apply it to other things or discussions is to take them out of context.
Especially when considering what you post in every thread supporting Borges and company.
Borges and company? Oh, do you mean Michigan? Right, well, good on you for making that observation. I definitely do support Michigan. Would be rather embarrassing if I didn't, considering all the time I've spent on this blog.
Here is IPFW in a nutshell...
A poster makes a thoughtful comment on the coaching staff, and the state of the program.
IPFW: LOL is Hoke ur dad or sumthin'? What a apologist! Why don't ya marry him if ya love him so much, dum dum!
Edit: I assume the irony of the 2nd half of this post will be lost on you.
Most of us are on this site because we are extremely passionate about UM football/athletics. There are some fairweather fans just like any fanbase, but most of the displeasure is from people who will not stop supporting the team, and are understandably frustrated with the program not being up to the standards established by past greats like Bo, for several years now.
Most everyone supports the 'team.' We just strongly dislike a certain coach
Bo is gone. I've been to his grave and he isn't coming back. We need to find a personality for the 21st century. Alabama has done it, Ohio State has done it (twice!) and M needs to as well
God yes please
Go cheer for another team.
Its because the players and the coaches don't give 2 shits about the fans, yet if it wasnt for the fans they wouldn't be playing/coaching football, this isnt pop warner football where their parents payed for them to play, and if anybody thinks any differently then they aren't thinking realistically
Hey, dontfakeitfunk! Nice to see you back so soon.
No one is "abandoning" the team. People are upset to see our kids get humiliated every week to the point of tears and want accountability. Get off your holier than thy righteous horse.
Hey, look, another person who blatantly misrepresents my arguments who also just so happens to be a negative nancy in all of the open threads! I'm beginning to sense a pattern here...
Where have I done that in this thread? Said so and so is not a "true fan?" Can you point to that? I think we've found IPFW's alt account.
Also, you know what, if you are the type of person who posts shit like this:
Courntey Avery He is a garbage as bitch go back to warming the bench u piece of shit
We have A sloppy piece of shit oc and fat sloppy head coach that won't tell al what to do. Grow a sack Brady u fucking dumbfuck
This football Sucks dick. We are the laughing stock of the whole country. We average 200 yards a game we fucking suck go hire cam Cameron or someone that knows how to coach offense
New Thread. Same shitty product.
Fuck him and this staff. Nice 2nd half adjustments.
It is going to be a slaughter next Saturday....And, half the stadium will be Buckeyes. I hope they choke on their 15 dollar hot dogs and 9 dollar cokes..
Just said the same thing. I hope a guy like Peppers wont waste 3-4 yrs of his life in that shit storm
I'm to the point where if I saw borges on the street I would punch him in the face
FUCK SHIT STUPID FIRE
Go Hawkeyes. Anything to get rid of the steaming pile of shit we call Borges.
LOL At this whole fucking team. They suck.
Holy fuck Wile
Borges you are a fucking moron.
Borges is still a fucking idiot.
Fuck Al Borges.
AVERY!!!! WTF?! I can play the ball better than that!
Poorly defended by Avery. Can we release him?
Avery is Ass
Then you know what, fuck yeah I'm going to call you a shitty fan, and rightfully so. That is a selection of some of the comments from the open thread. Maybe you're the type of person that thinks it's OK for people to make those sorts of comments about college kids and their coaches, but I'm not, and I'm sure as hell going to police the fuck out of that sort of behavior by pointing to it and saying, "Shut the hell up."
I'm a awful fan but don't give a shit what other fans think.
You don't need to state that, we knew it already.
You just described yourself perfectly.
How can you abandon the team when you don't have any interaction with the team other than maybe getting as close as the stgadium to watch them? I feel bad for the players and I still hope they do well, but I am not behind a staff that doesn't put them in the best positions to succeed. But since I have nothing to do with decision making or play calling or lining up, how can I abandon them? If not supporting the staff (90% Borges) is equal to abandoning the team, then abandoning the team might actually be a good thing, and if enough people abandon the team a positive change might occur. Then again, Dave Brandon is still the AD so we're probably screwed for a long time....
Couldn't agree more. +1
Keep clinging to the past. Michigan will be mediocre as long as everyone can't move on.
will be ND
ND was in the NCG last year. Granted, they found themselves in an extremely fortunate position, but the best Michigan has done in the past... almost decade is a Sugar Bowl win over a pretty good VT team. Making fun of ND for living in the past isn't really appropriate anymore.
are timeless. That isn't "living" in the past any more than adhering to the Bill of RIghts is "living in the past". It would be living in the past if UM ran the same plays Bo did years ago. It ISN'T living in the past to play hard, play clean, and to do so in an ethical manner.
I am sick and tired of hearing about the past and having a "Michigan Man" in charge. This is what we end up with. Why should I keep paying for season tickets for this crap?
Being a "Michigan Man" has nothing to do with Al Borges crappy playcalling, but how the team is ran. It is not about schemes. Why for God's sake cannot you grasp this?
if you want Michigan to be Bama and to be a win-at-all-costs program then perhaps you should ditch the Maize and Blue for Crimson and White because Michigan will and should never be about that.
I have has season tickets for 18 years. I have spent a lot of money supporting the program. So kindly shut up.
That entitles you to nothing.
I am not saying it does. Questioning my fandom is bullshit.
philosophy. You deserve to ahve your fandom questioned after that ridiculous statement.
Bo was saying that when you come to Michigan you play for each other and for championships. That is something every team strives for.
You for some reaosn interpreted negatively. Why I don't know.
Tried to be reasonable. But fuck off.
Why don't you go cheer for the Buckeyes, potty mouth? Anyone who takes potshots at Bo is no real fan no matter how many games they have gone to.
I'm not doing that.
Your posts are still misguided. it isn't Bo.. He is a strength, not a weakness, of the program.
I am not the only one who feels this way. Go pick on someone else.
If you and your buddies would stop misinterpretating the message behind Bo's speech we wouldn't have this problem.
We are are frustrated with how this season has gone. We all want UM to be elite again. But knocking the program's modern father is no way to go about it.
Go bitch at someone else.
I agree that our downfall has been living in the past but I don't think Bo's speech is dragging us backwards. It's our current coaches not being able to be more progressive in how they scheme and coach, and looking backwards at a style of football that used to be successful for us. When we have nothing else to hold on to (success and wins), we hold on to the things that have made us happy in the past. That's just human nature. If RRod had had more success, we wouldn't be so tied up in all the past stuff as we are now. We would have embraced new ways of doing things.
Bama and MSU run Manball schemes. Both seem to be doing quite well. UM's problem is that their OC is doing a horrendous job of playcalling and the OL has done a poor job of coaching the line.
Running the ball and playing stifling defense is still the key to winning national titles.
They may be the same essential styIe of football, but if you could get into the head of each coach, I say they would look very different. Hoke looks backwards to the glory days of Michigan as the gold standard, and Saban can take the same traditional way of playing, and think of it in a more innovative, forward thinking way. Hoke is clearly the inferior football mind of the two, even if they are plaing the same style, and I think it's because he's not innovative.
I once peered into the depths of Saban's mind.
All I saw was pain. Pain and darkness.
And in the infinite darkness the was an echo, "ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn..."
What amazes me about football is that too often you either have a great offense or great defense, but rarely both. I would love to have a spread offense like OSU with a defense like MSU. There are some programs/coaches that seem to get that concept and are in the NC discussion every year. I consider Urban Meyer (especially when he had Charlie Strong/Mattison coaching the defense at Florida) and Saban to be coaches who get it.
With RR we got a top flight offense, but horrible defense. With Hoke we seem to be developing the defense, but our offense is horrible.
I believe a top flight defense is the quickest path to getting you a seat at the table, but defense alone will not win the big prize. Look at MSU, arguably the best defense in the country, but does anyone really think they are a National Championship contender. You need both.
Were you upset when Beilein adopted the "Team, Team, Team" mantra a couple of years ago before the tournament?
This does not have to be an either/or kind of thing. You can be appreciative of our history and culture and still innovate. There is nothing in this speech that you could possibly consider out of date.
There is nothing wrong with reverence to Bo, who was a great leader and really good coach. The team message is the correct message, because it is about puting the team first and foremost above all else. They are a family, play for them. That is a cornerstone to a winning program.
That also means that the team comes first above coaching friendships, etc. If the offense is not going to get better under Borges, then Hoke needs to walk the walk and make changes. It is not good enough to talk the talk, because then the words don't mean anything.
Bo was wearing a headset when he gave that speech
It has no relevance anymore. Move on past Bo already. The fanbase's worship of Bo is why we suck-we are stuck back in the days when the Rose Bowl was cool and when Big Ten championships were king. Until Michigan's goal is national championships and while we still think Bo is king, we are going to suck
Did you listen to the speech? It's timeless. It's not about offensive schemes or anything, just depending on and supporting your teammates.
Also, I'm not sure how us losing to Iowa and Nebraska is due to us not prioritizing the national championship.
Wrong. It IS about winning Big Ten titles and the Rose Bowl. These are noble achievements, worthy of praise. Only the most shallow of fans would regard a conference championship and Rose Bowl berth as some form of failure.
Except the Rose Bowl is basically a consolation prize at this point and is even more of one next year.
Michigan football is not in position to turn down consolation prizes.
I don't believe a B1G title is consolation.
Winning conference titles and Rose Bowls are great, don't get me wrong. But your ultimate goal should be a national championship at a place like this. If you place your Michigan's ceiling at a Rose Bowl, then you're selling the program short. Or you're just living in the past.
As much as I hate the guy, I bet if you talked to Urban Meyer about what his goals for his team are, they don't want to be holding up a Rose Bowl trophy. They want to hoist a crystal football. I bet you Nick Saban's bunch considers anything less than a national championship to be a failure at this point.
The ultimate goal should be a national championship when you have the brand, talent and resources to compete for one.
or least only have one loss. So the statement about winning the conference still applies.
Anyways, you miss the point. That speech is a mission statement. It's about how the program will be run and what is expected from everyone inside it. It says nothing about limiting the potential of the program.
Bo is saying that we will win games and we will do it the right way. How can anyone object to that?
I never really understood why its so difficult for people to have a national championship as the ultimate goal. Winning your conference should be viewed, in my opinion, as part of the process. I'm not objecting at all to Bo's beliefs in how a program should be run ethically. I just don't understand why its so difficult for people to say that a national championship should be this program's ultimate aspiration. Why not come out and say it in plain words?
You talk to anyone on Bama's, OSU's, FSU's, or Oregon's roster, and I'd be shocked if there was any of them that didn't tell you a national championship was their goal for the season.
How about you set your goals like Charles and the team did in 1997? Charles said ''How about we just win?'' Not ''Let's win the conference and go to the rose bowl''. He said let's just win.
You're getting really wrapped up in semantics here. To win the Big Ten, you pretty much have to go undefeated. To win the national title, you pretty much have to go undefeated. Not a huge difference.
Because Wisconsin the last two years was undefeated right? Wisoconsin, msu, and osu were undefeated in 2010 right? OSU was undefeated in 2009 right? Oh...except they weren't. Setting your goals short is what has done this program in for years. Did you not hear the story about the recruit that chose Miami because ''They want to win national titles and Michigan is content with going to Rose Bowls.'' ? Playing for the rose bowl is okay if you're msu. It's not okay if you're Michigan.
the rose bowl is junk compared to the national championship. but the big 10 title? its looking pretty likely that osu will make the national championship game if they win the big ten championship, with baylor losing and the voters unlikely to keep fsu #2 if winston is charged with rape
The Rose Bowl is a fine achievement, but is not the ultimate prize. Back in the day it was the "Grand Daddy" of them all. But the game has changed and National Championships are what the ulitimate goal has to be. You don't hear Urban Meyer blathering about Big Ten Championships and the Rose Bowl. He wants to win National Championships.
Big Ten Championships matter to teams like MSU, Wisconsin, Iowa because that is their ceiling. The ceiling for OSU is a National Championship and it should be the ceiling for UM as well. Focus on the top prize, not the consolation. Kids today want to play for National Championships. Kids in the 70's wanted to play for Big Ten Championships and Rose Bowls.
Bo is not the reason UM is struggling. To blame reverence for a great coach for a program's struggles is a stupid statement to make. UM is struggling because they aren't doing what they used well under Bo--run the ball and play great defense--the very things that Saban has used to dominate the game.
UM's is struggling because the quality of coaching isn't what it needs to be, not because of alleged focus on the Big Ten title over the national title.I cannot believe that you even wrote that nonsense.
Where in his comment did you get "Bo is the reason UM is struggling"?
struggles which is clearly asinine. OSU reveres Woody and they win. Bama reveres Bear and they win. UM's struggles have nothing to do with Bo, but with subpar coaching. That and only that is why UM is a mediocre program.Lord knows they have invested the money to keep up with the Joneses and the recruiting has been outstanding.
because the media, the administration, the fanbase and the frickin AD want the second coming of Bo to walk through the doors and save the program. There is NO MICHIGAN MAN! He died. He's gone. He was a great man and a great coach, but he's gone. "The Team" speech/concept is great, but without coaches that can teach and prepare and players that can execute, it is all just words.
This program will never improve until they let him go and move on. Nick Saban is not any kind Bear Bryant, but that program found a coach that wins everywhere and proved it BEFORE he showed up. Michigan chose a Bo 'type' of guy and it's not working. He and this staff are in WAYYY over their heads.
If Hoke doesn't fire at least four staff then he will fail ultimately as head coach. This program is on the brink of disaster and if he doesn't see it and do something soon, it might be too much to overcome.
I think wanting the second coming of Bo is exactly what we need. I think the problem is arbitrarily defining where the second coming of Bo can come from.
Nick Sabain IS the second coming of Bear Bryant. Just like Bryant, he won everywhere he went and he's turned Bama into a elite powerhouse. That's all Bama needs to define someone as the next Bryant. All we need to find the next Bo is a guy that has us in the national title picture year after year (yes, easier said than done), it doesn't matter where in the hell he comes from as long as he can do that.
The second coming of Bo or Bear Bryant is about leadership and presence. The scheme can be different, but you need the personalities who are big and wont settle for anything less than excellence. Right now we are not getting excellence. We are getting mediocrity.
SalvatoreQuattro I agree with you. Bo was great for Michigan. The issue is with the quality of the coaching today!
We want the Big Ten championship and we're gonna win it as a Team.
Seems like Michigan fans should want a Big Ten championship. I'd much prefer a trophy in Schembechler Hall than in Columbus or East Lansing or Iowa City.
They can throw out all those great backs, and great quarterbacks, and great defensive players, throughout the country and in this conference, but there's gonna be one Team that's gonna play solely as a Team.
Having played team sports, you're better off having a team that plays well as a team than a few individuals that are great who play selfishly with no chemistry in the locker room.
No man is more important than The Team. No coach is more important than The Team. The Team, The Team, The Team, and if we think that way, all of us, everything that you do, you take into consideration what effect does it have on my Team?
Again, football is a team sport; to win, everyone needs to be accountable to the team.
Because you can go into professional football, you can go anywhere you want to play after you leave here. You will never play for a Team again. You'll play for a contract. You'll play for this. You'll play for that. You'll play for everything except the team, and think what a great thing it is to be a part of something that is, The Team.
In college football, the philosophy is much more team oriented than professional football.
We're gonna win it. We're gonna win the championship again because we're gonna play as team, better than anybody else in this conference, we're gonna play together as a team. We're gonna believe in each other, we're not gonna criticize each other, we're not gonna talk about each other, we're gonna encourage each other. And when we play as a team, when the old season is over, you and I know, it's gonna be Michigan again, Michigan.
Behaving as accountable teammates is an important facet of winning. Winning > losing, and Michigan has the expectation of winning.
Which part of the speech has "no relevance any more"? I honestly don't think there's one sentence that's irrelevant. Where did I go wrong here?
No man is more important than the team. That includes coaches too. I'm hoping Hoke does the right thing at the end of the season and honestly evaluates the coaching staff and makes changes or not, based on what's best for the team, the team, the team. If he keeps certain members of the staff because they're buddies then Hoke is not about the team therefore he is not a " Michigan Man ".
Time is going to creep until this season is over.
The team doesn't, I don't, and I suspect there are many here who would not choose to be part of your "we".
Well, I sympathize and have thought the same about the niners.
I actually think Hoke is a very good leader, just not a good coaching mind.
If I was a fair weather fan I wouldnt be upset at UM. I would be cheering for MSU and sayiing "I cheer for the state of Michigan." Because I love the team so much, I am very upset when they fail. It isnt like I want them to lose, but I cant stand them losing games that we shouldnt be. When the coaching staff is wasting so much talent. It is just like a parent who yells at their kid when the kid screws up. They love the kid so much that they get mad when the kid does something stupid. Sure it is probably unhealthy to love something so much you cant control, but that is how I am and I am not going to change.
Go blue..i watch every week and i get upset when we lose but really..people are terrible and just bandwagon folk like that jumped on the basketball wagon..go blue..disappointed in some of our fans...fux ohio..
Gives me chills
"It was never a slogan for Bo," former Michigan coach Lloyd Carr, an assistant in 1983, said of Schembechler's focus on the team.
I think this is the key between what M-Wolverine mentioned and how others might view this speech. I would argue that this speech is essentially the culture of Bo's staff in a nutshell. More than words, that's simply how it was. It is definitely not a bad thing to work towards, and indeed, I think Hoke's staff has done a very good job of beginning to move the culture back in this direction. It seems like "The Team" is the program's "true north" statement again, if you will.
culture, not schemes. It is timeless. That is Michigan's mission statement. That is the expectation every coach who follows should adher to.
People say that this is "living in the past" just don't get it and probably never will.
The speech is not about schemes. Unfortunately the people who run this program seem to feel that the only way to play Michigan football is to stick to Bo's schematic approach.
The criteria for a coach should be a high character guy committed to the university and making the players successful on and off the field.
After that look at a history of winning and an innovative approach to the game that is successful with a verity of talent.
Connection to Michigan program, some pre existing knowledge of its tradition and commitment to the programs historical offensive and defensive approach should be irrelevant. Unfortunately these last criteria are what's most important to the university's and athletic departments leadership
I'd just ask that we be careful with our wishes.
The last time we wanted a complete rebuke of what the former program stood for, we came away with Coach Rod's tenure.
And for what its worth, Bo was quite an innovator, particularly when compared to his greatest competition, Woody Hayes. He passed more than Woody and he ran option. These are old-fashioned to us today, but in those days, he was way ahead of Woody in terms of scheme.
The '83 season was a success, not a Big 10 title but still 9-3 regular season with wins at MSU and home vs. OSU.
The '84 season (actually the aftermath) is what I remember most fondly about Bo. We went 6-6 and looked sluggish even in some games vs. weak teams. After opening with a win over #1 Miami, we got into a funk (even worse than Funk's coaching), lost 6 games, including a shutout 26-0 by Iowa. We lost to MSU and OSU (like this year)
If you've read Bo's Lasting Lessons book, you'll know how he responded during the off-season and how the staff prepared for the '85 season, completely under the radar, but finished 10-1-1 and #2.
Nope. Hoke is NOT Bo - who is?
The real measure of Hoke will be how we perform in '14. Another crapper (8-5 or worse!) then time to promise a Harbaugh (John or Jim) $10 million to fix what's broke here.
I'm just ready for this POS season to end and for Hoke to be under pressure to come out next year PO'ed at the world.
That bullshit report was invented by losers who are not journalists, but children playing journalist.
I agree with Harbaugh's never coming here, however, I am sure Harbaugh was genuinely interested until certain NFL teams were more interested in him. Once he realized he could stay where he was location wise for his family, and coach Pro-Ball, he decided that was his eventual goal anyway and skip the step up in College
Funny how you left out the key part of that 6-6 finish in '84: Harbaugh breaking his arm. Hard to win when your All-American quarterback is out of the lineup midway through week 5.
and starting for the first year after Steve Smith had QBed Michigan 3 straight seasons.
IN 1984 Harbaugh was not a Jedi yet.
So, for instance, when Jamie Morris described that season on WTKA last week and said it all fell apart after Harbaugh broke his arm, at which point they had to install a new offense every week just to get something passable with the talent they had, he was just making stuff up? I mean, he only played on that team...
that year, but with a lot more option play because Zurbrugg had decent option skills and good footspeed, but his passing was suspect. Michigan quickly became one dimensional on offense, which opponents were able to control.
Harbaugh was very talented and highly recruited back in 1982, but in 1984 was only a Soph and had very limited playing experience. Michigan's offense was anemic in the first 4 games of the 1984 that Harbaugh started, which did not bode well despite a hot start (beating Miami). 1984 was a lot like 1979 and 1975 years when Michigan had to turn to inexperienced QBs. Unlike 1979 (8-4) and 1975 (8-2-2) seasons, 1984 ended worse because of turnovers and the team's overall youth. .
One could argue Gardner broke his mojo half way through the season, that's like breaking your arm after game 5, right? Hard to win when your starting qb gets his 1st taste of starting qb for a full season where expectations were HUGE and completely unfounded (this falls on coaches too for giving him #98) and teams prepared for you, and he plays behind a line that is the only part of the team that has less experience than him. Real tough I would say. Let's not forget this is Gardner's 1st trip to the rodeo. He went for a ride or two sure, but he's never gone through a full season before and he's never gone through a season after experiencing a full season of defenses preparing for him.
But who am I? I'm just a Go Blue rah rah guy who is blinded by loyalty. To hell with some realism! This is a me me me instant gratification nation where if a national title isn't achieved in 2-3 years than cry/sniff/wail....it's not fair/i wanna win/i deserve to win/what I want/when I want it!!! This sucks/hes fat/where a coat/not fair/we deserve more/I'm a paying fan so someone has to answer to ME!!!! Me Me Me!!!
Before the Pistons won back to back championships, they lost in the playoffs at progressively increasing different stages. Until finally they won it all and it was sweet. Real sweet. Yeah, UM is not where anyone wants it, but the hope of a better tomorrow and then the fruition of that tomorrow makes all the struggles worthwhile. I choose to believe the better tomorrow will come. But I don't demand it comes now. Sue me! That's what I think. Go Blue!! Beat the buckeyes! Let it all hang out!!!
Well I have been reading MGoBlog for the past hour or two, and I just have to step away after this. Yes Bo's speech was genuine and true. It is also true that this squads offense is just the pits. I just don't see how they're going to defeat Ohio. I posted elsewhere that one of my fondest Michigan football games was the 1995 upset when Biakabatuka went for 313 yards rushing against OSU, in a year where people were saying Michigan wasn't going to win.
In fact, I recall sitting in my car on North Campus, It was in the evening. I had just pulled into a parking spot (back when there was parking on NC) and was listening to WTKA and the guys were saying they didn't think Michigan could beat OSU. I was saddened, but had to go do whatever it was I was there to do.
Fast forward to the following Saturday and I watched in amazement as Biakabatuka gashed Ohio over and over for 5 yards, 8, 9, 14, again and again. I don't recall a lot of really long runs but lots of 5-10 yard runs.
However that feat required a line that could run block, which we don't have.
So... sigh. I will watch and hope beyond hope for this team to pull off the upset. But I just don't see how it could happen with a team that can't do anything at all on offense. Defense wins championships but you have to score at least a few times, somehow.
Run the ball and play stifling defense. If UM did those two things they wouldn't be 7-4 right now.
Good point. Also I never took a potshot at Bo even though you assumed I did.
On the field, who is the leader of this team on both sides of the ball? Being a team and/or playing as a team are one thing. But if no one is there to lead, the team will go nowhere.
Be careful. You don't want people to think you hate Bo.
And he's arguably our second best coach after Yost (Though Lloyd won conference titles at roughly the same pace and won the national title and had a Heisman).
I'm not deriding Bo, but I have to admit, it's wearing on me to see Bo get referenced after we're outcoached again. It's reaching hero worship levels. None of these kids were alive when Bo coached. The seniors were 15 when Bo passed away.
I understand where you are coming from. I never criticized Bo either even though someone assumed I did.
But, I also think that we think of him as "one of the greatest ever" while the rest of the country thinks of him as "one of the greatest ever at Michigan."
In the coaching profession, Bo is seen as a legend whose legacy is unquestioned. Most coaches hold him on the same level as Woody, Bear, Yost, Stagg, etc.
I found that to be surprising, as well. But I think most coaches know how hard it is to win the National Championship, so while we knock him for not having won one, they admire him for always having Michigan in the discussion. The continued excellence of Bo's teams was something to really respect.
Bo's winning percentage (76.2) is actually higher than the Bear's (76.0). The only thing missing was the National Championship.
His record speaks for itself. His competitors respect him greatly. And his players loved him.
I love to hear the team speech. It's applicable even today - for football, for work and life.
Michigan football has been down in recent years because it's lost hold of the winning ingredients, which was excellent coaching, excellent recruiting and tremendous fan support. All three of these ingredients have waned in recent years for a number of reasons (good and bad). What we're all witnessing is the culmination of a series of unfortunate events. Hoke is not a master tactician like Bo or Woody were. But I'm sure he is an inspirational leader, recruiter and motivator. He's relied on Mattison and Borges to make up for his short-comings on strategy and tactics. Bo did the same, as he was not a master of all. Bo had Bill McCartney, Jerry Hanlon, Terrell Burton, Gary Moeller, Lloyd Carr, Elliott Uzelac and Don Nehlen - some very passionate coaches.
Firing Hoke would be a huge mistake right now. Michigan can't afford more coaching turnover and program turmoil. That would interrupt the rebuilding process and disrupt recruiting further. I recommend UM stay the course with Hoke for another 2 to 3 years. After that, Michigan will have allowed the investment cycle to have run it's course.
Are you serious?!?! Hell no. 1 max! If he fails, hit the road.
At Navy (8-4) in 2007 with Ball State. Can someone find a better one? Am I missing a better one?
Obviously his 2011 UM team beat 8-5 Notre Dame, 8-5 SD State, 9-4 Nebraska and 11-3 Virginia Tech.
All considerably better than 2007 Navy IMO.
Those are home wins and Va Tech was neutral site.
you totally get it
I'm sorry but Hoke should not be compared to Bo. I think Hoke is one hell of a nice guy and I'm holding out hope that he will turn this program around. Bo was a strong, stubborn sob. His team knew that, opposing coaches knew that and the fans knew that. Bo didn't pussy foot around. Bo spoke confidently and believed whole heartedly in what he said. I'm sorry but I don't see Hoke in the same light. I know the coaches press conference isn't important in of itself. But too many times I see Hoke pause and look lost, stumbling through answering some of the questions almost thinking what would Bo or maybe it's Dave Brandon approve of ? He doesn't demand the same respect Bo did.
He could also tell you in real time what was wrong with the team... he didn't have to defer to film study or assistants.
but firing him would not be a big mistake if we hired a coach that runs a pro style offense. As long as the recruiting class could be salvaged, you could hit the ground running if a guy was brought in that could piggyback off of Hoke's players due to familiarity in essentially the same system. The Carr to Richrod transition (pro style players, spread offense) and the Richrod to Hoke transition (the exact opposite) have both stalled because of the lack of homework done by the respective athletic directors. Assuming Mr. Brandon has learned from his mistake (good luck getting him to admit that), there would be, in theory, no reason to believe a pro style guru couldn't be successful with the current roster. I'll bite my tongue on my potential wish list in terms of candidates, like I said I believe Hoke deserves another year.
probably dropped him since he could coach manball.
the team the team. Borges doesnt know it. 1 reception for 2 yards .... just perfect.
You did watch the game and see him drop quite a few passes, right?
he needs bettet coaching. They have to coach him better. Broken record ... pal
Coach wide open dropped passes??
This. It's not like they weren't trying to get Funchess the ball, but he dropped it a lot today.
He had at least two drops, if not three.
Edit: beaten to the punch by Hoke. Btw, fire Borges, Brady.
are friendly. Till you realize this you will be lost in this farce. No progress all year. Case closed.
You're arguing two different cases.
No progress, fine.
Devin Funchess not being targeted, wrong.
For me the parallels are throughout life. I have worked in manufacturing for 18 years on the plant floor in places that build engines, cars, and batteries.
So there's this culture where the People part of the plant blames the Equipment part of the plant...in other words the People can't do their job since the Equipment has issues, instead of realizing the entire thing works as a whole, and when the Equipment is down the People should try to assist with backup processes instead of just sitting down. If you allow the culture of Blame to creep in you will be forever destined to mediocrity. Of this I am convinced and my mind will never be changed.
Its of course applicable to Football, where the Defense is irked that the Offense fumbled on the 10 and put them back on the field Again, or went 3 & Out for the 7th time. Etcetera.
Even within a Squad. E.g, The OL could be theoretically pissed off at Funchess for dropping passes, while they are providing adequate protection.
But a minimum of 22 guys have to work together (more when you account for injuries and fatigue). A team doesn't work unless its getting contributions from everyone.
What I like about this team is they don't give up. In my mind that's as fundamental of a building block as blocking and tackling. Football is hugely about momentum within a game, unless its a complete creampuff team. But eventually a team will face another equal or greater team where you need that culture.
So when I look back, Michigan has run with everyone on their schedule. Except for Michigan State. They overloaded us all day long. Obviously some of that isn't desirable. But improve some skills and physical development and you can see how we can edge ahead in subsequent years. The staff knows it. They have it on film. Its not a mystery. They have to work as a Team also...time will tell if they can do it.
one of the best real world analogies i've seen lately
If we as fans and alumni and supporters want to keep comparing every coaching staff or standards to Bo, we need a coach in the Bo lineage. Les Miles is that guy. We either find a way to pull him from LSU and sell him on being the highest paid college coach (even if temporary) or give up with all the Bo speak.
Les Miles is the best coach for this program as he produces teams that provide results as well as produces coordinators that develop into head coaches. I love Bo- but Michigan is not the Bo Michigan since his passing. And it sucks.
Did you not read about Les's dealing at Oklahoma State? Sports illustrated did a pretty good job and it sounded like Les's staff was dirty... which confirms the slimy feeling you get when you watch him speak. Am I alone on this?
Yes, they were all allegations that nothing came from, did you hear Bryant's response that said something along the lines of if he didn't get paid, no one did, and yes, you are alone.
The main reasons I would want Lea Miles would be not for him being the coach directly, but more the style he will bring and the coaching tree that he will provide for the future... For example... Bo created him, he creates coach A, who then creates coach B and we have the lineage back... Bo...Moeller...Carr...
You DO know that Brady Hoke coached under Carr, right? And that Greg Mattison coached under Carr AND Moeller, right?
"It's like you got a problem with concentration."
I know Hoke is from Carr, but is he a big name coach? He came in with a losing record at two lower level conferences... He hasn't proven much... I like him as a person and his passion is great, but aside from recruiting, what benefit does he have to the program when the recruits he brings in are underachieving?
And he has since posted a winning record at a big program. One that had been very bad in the immediate 3 year period before his arrival. He is a big name coach, now. Ask anyone about him and they will have an opinion.
The big name thing is really stupid. Urban Meyer was a virtual unknown before Florida hired him. Les Miles was an unknown before OKSt. Nick Saban was an unknown before MSU, and even then, people had doubts about him succeeding in the Big 12. Coach Rod was an unknown before taking over at WVU. Bo who?
Don't forget Jim Tressel coming from 1-AA Youngstown State.
And Hoke is so proven.
He came in with a garbage record. And it's getting worse. I think it's clear where the program is heading.
I have no problem with Mattison, but Hoke has done nothing to show progress.
Hoke's record is actually better here than it was at previous stops. It (his record) is certainly not getting worse.
I know you are upset, but you just cannot make shit up.
And the Model T was a great car, but somehow the world passed it by.... Not saying Bo wasn't a great coach, he was, grew up watching and admiring, but those day's are long gone. The football world has passed us by...time to move on....
Good comparison, however I have [unfortunately] been watching the SEC more and more and everytime I watch an LSU game, they talk about Les' team playing like Bo's Michigan teams and pounding it up the middle yatta yatta
Could it be that the style is equivalent of the Ford and Bo is the model T, Les Miles a Mustang?
Time for board lock down until Monday already drunk mods!
Not sure if that was "until Monday, [I'm] already drunk, mods!" or "until Monday, already drunk mods!"
If you'll be drunk until Monday, congrats and I envy you. For me, there is no "already"; I'm just now able to get myself Coleman'd. No idea what's going on with LSA though, he's off Twitter right now so I'm guessing he's either doing responsible adult things or getting plastered. One or the other.
Excuse me for a minute while high proof Canadian whiskey and American Coca-Cola begin to corse through my bloodstream. In the words of Tom Petty, "one more time to kill the pa-a-ain [from Iowa]".
I think if Hoke doesn't work out we should back the truck up to Gary Andersen's house with 5 million in cash. Or if our AD isn't an arrogant prick about it if Les wants to come here welcome him.
Why Gary Andersen??
He's recruiting like a mofo and is on track to go 10-2 this year. Wait...I just basically described Hoke didn't I?
Well, he has won a conference title in his coaching career.
Bringing up Les Miles in a conversation about potential coaches is about the quickest way to demonstrate that you have no earthly clue what you're talking about.
How? Have you followed Michigan Football in life? You do realize no matter what, he's always going to be tied to the university, brought up in conversations about the university's past and when it is in need of a coaching candidate because he's a coach, successful, and still active?
You know this, right?
Bringing him up as a viable option to be the head coach at Michigan indicates you have no earthly clue what you're talking about.
Everyone is aware of his ties to Michigan. And MOST people are aware of the relationship, 'culture,' and various other reasons he'll NEVER be walking the sidelines of Michigan Stadium.
Relationship is in terms with Moeller/Carr, not the university. So I would argue that...
If Michigan wants to win, they better look the route of someone like Miles at the least.
If you shit in the pool, the issue isn't just between you and the people who were in the pool at that instant.
I wish I were drunker than I am.
I CAN HELP YOU WITH THAT.
If he has beef with Moeller, that's between him and Moeller. It shouldn't have anything to do with him getting the job here. That's the whole problem with this program.
Miles is dirty. He's also getting old and has no reason to leave LSU. Not a serious candidate.
Who cares anyway. Fire borges, find an OC
Idk if he would, but it wouldn't hurt to offer right now. There's no conference Championship/National Championship awaiting his team. And he has stated in the [almost distant] past Michigan was his dream job...
You've got to be kidding. You and 90% of the schmoe's on this site totally turned against the team 4 yrs ago. David Brandon gave you what you wanted , ill conceived, utterly predictable Lloyd Carr ball (Bo had the triple option, that was NOT conservative!). Well I hope you are enjoying MANBALL. Have you ever heard of the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory? PS FU David Brandon. (Note best season lately was RichRod's seniors....).
Why wouldn't we take a look at Cam Cameron... He's got the Hoke credentials, yet still has the Bo connection... Thoughts?
There is no conceivable scenario in which Brady Hoke isn't the head coach next year. Cam Cameron has a career 19-52 record as a head coach. So, yeah, put me in the "probably not" pile
Not talking next year- I fully believe Hoke will be the HC for next year... I don't have a feeling one way or the other for after...
I was more inquiring about thoughts on him in case Hoke continues on this path?
Lewan just tweeted this: Let this train wreck burn more slowly.. Kids are victims in this story!
I'd start a new thread if I could...I worry this means Hoke has lost the team.
He's just shouting out Glasgow's skills on the 1's and 2's.
The tweet right before that was how they were jamming out to 90s music.
I looked at Taylor's @mentions, and let's just say people on Twitter need to collectively set themselves on fire and jump off of a cliff onto a bed of cancerous nails.
I know it's in our American culture and all to want the quick fix, the instant gratification,, the fast drive-thru service, the win right now, but that's not how it works in most cases.
Overnight success happens, but it's rare. Normally it takes time, persistence and patience and a shit load of luck.
I for one don't want UM football to be Baylored with flavor-of-the-month coaching change decisions by the AD. Most successful football programs take a few years to get rolling, just like any other expensive project.
All this "this is Michigan" crap is just that, political theater and sound bites to please the faithful, nothing more. If you fall in love with everything some guys says, then you can be convinced of anything. Harbaugh is not coming to Ann Arbor, Michigan. He's in Palo Alto where he grew up, and it's an awesome place to live and raise a family. People love it when Hoke said he'd walk or crawl or inch-worm to Ann Arbor (to coach here). So yeah, the guy definitely loves Michigan. Check that box.. But can he win at Michigan? Clearly he can. He's 26-11 in 3 years and has won some games over good competition with 8+ or 9+ wins.
Hoke has not yet won a signature game in his career over a 10 win team yet.
But Bo didn't either. Between 1969 and 1989, Bo's signature wins were over 8-2 Ohio in 1969, 8-3 UCLA in 1972, 9-3 Texas A&M in 1977, 9-3 Ohio in 1977, and 9-3 Notre Dame in 1978 and probably 9-3 Nebraska in 1985/86*.
It wasn't for 17 years until Bo finally beat a team that achieved 10 wins: 1988 USC (10-1) in the Rose Bowl, and that was a come from behind win too.
*Yes Ohio went 10-3 in 1986, but were 9-1 when they lost to Michigan.
game against OSU in 1969. OSU was 22-0 when Bo first team upset OSU. They hadn't lost a game in two years. I believe Woody said it was the best team he ever had, when Michigan won.
Bo had many signature wins and losses (mostly bowl games), but no matter how you stretch it out, Hoke has one big win and that was the Sugar Bowl game with RR's players. This program has gotten worse with every season and the future only looks bright if you believe that recruiting stars actually matter. There is no evidence that this staff is developing its players or that this staf has a clue how to plan for a game. Aside from a few lucky breaks, this team would be 4-7 right now.
There is no truthful description where this team or staff can be described as "good". There is talent on the team, but there is no coaching, not game-planning, no player development that suggests this team will improve.
Next Saturday will be ugly and the stadium will be red, and next season might not be much better, based on the evidence.
Yes! I can't believe people are even debating this stuff anymore. Fire Borges.
Michigan football can't afford to keep changing direction because of butthair wins over Akron and UConn nor because of butthair losses to PSU and Iowa.
Support the team goddammit. Support the coaches too. Instead fire Captain Morgan, those Old Milwaukee returnable bottles, or that huge bong resting on your end table.
It was Bo's signature win and only signature win.
Hoke won the 2011 games over ND, Nebraska and Va Tech with Rodriguez's players. Bo won the Ohio game and finished 8-3 with Bump Elliott's.
I was not over the moon with the Hoke hire, but the decision has been made. It would be program suicide to make changes again after 3 years, unless you want to see Michigan football dive in deeper into the certainty pool of being "Baylored".
There are no quick fixes anymore. Plus, the University of Michigan, it's football program and culture doesn't want that. They want tradition and brand above all else. Since 2005 Michigan football has been on a steady decline of empire due to coaching nepotism, incompetence, complacency and a dysfunctional superiority complex combined with ancestor worship. Michigan did not grab the best candidate. They got the comfortable candidate.
I say that changing now is going to do more harm than good. We should hunker down and ride out the shit storm for another year or two. By then Hoke's players will be 2 to 3 years in the system. Then we can judge the body of work from a more distinct and clear perspective. Hoke can't be that bad. Michigan fans put up with Lloyds B.S. year after year (7-5s, 8-4s and 9-3s pretty much with a few 10+ win seasons sprinkled in).
I beg to differ that the university wants brand and tradition above all else. When we went away from brand and tradition with RRod, we did it because we saw the writing on the wall that brand and tradition wasn't winning games with Lloyd anymore (although there was a vocal faction that didn't agree and eventually pushed RRod out). Then we went back to brand and tradition with the Hoke hire, thinking that the previous move away from brand and tradition didn't bring us wins, it must be brand and tradition that brings us wins. Now that isn't working. I think we as a university (barring the usual detractors) just want wins and we'll go in any direction to get wins, but we just don't know what that is or how to get them.
Except for you know, Alabama with Saban, Florida with Meyer, OSU with Meyer, Texas A&M with Kevin Sumlin, Florida State with Jimbo Fisher, Gus Malzahn at Auburn. Jim Mora at UCLA, You really think that those schools don't care about tradition?
Lloyd Carr won the Big Ten 5 times and a national title. Lloyd Carr had one season where he finished outside of the top 20.
On the other hand, in his entire career Brady Hoke has beaten a team that finished in the top 20 twice (Virginia Tech and Northwestern). Brady Hoke's best win on the road in his entire career, not just at Michigan, is @ Navy (8-4) in 2007. Brady Hoke has never won his conference anywhere he went. This is his 10th season of coaching.
You do know that 10 win seasons under 10-11 games is a bit different than 10 wins under 12 games, right?
It's breathtaking to me to see fans who lambasted Rich Rod in year three comparing Hoke to Bo by saying "well, on retrospect, Bo didn't really win many big games." Great.