They may be the same essential styIe of football, but if you could get into the head of each coach, I say they would look very different. Hoke looks backwards to the glory days of Michigan as the gold standard, and Saban can take the same traditional way of playing, and think of it in a more innovative, forward thinking way. Hoke is clearly the inferior football mind of the two, even if they are plaing the same style, and I think it's because he's not innovative.
Bo Schembechler's 'team' speech remains essence of Michigan football, 30 years later
I once peered into the depths of Saban's mind.
All I saw was pain. Pain and darkness.
And in the infinite darkness the was an echo, "ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn..."
What amazes me about football is that too often you either have a great offense or great defense, but rarely both. I would love to have a spread offense like OSU with a defense like MSU. There are some programs/coaches that seem to get that concept and are in the NC discussion every year. I consider Urban Meyer (especially when he had Charlie Strong/Mattison coaching the defense at Florida) and Saban to be coaches who get it.
With RR we got a top flight offense, but horrible defense. With Hoke we seem to be developing the defense, but our offense is horrible.
I believe a top flight defense is the quickest path to getting you a seat at the table, but defense alone will not win the big prize. Look at MSU, arguably the best defense in the country, but does anyone really think they are a National Championship contender. You need both.
Were you upset when Beilein adopted the "Team, Team, Team" mantra a couple of years ago before the tournament?
This does not have to be an either/or kind of thing. You can be appreciative of our history and culture and still innovate. There is nothing in this speech that you could possibly consider out of date.
There is nothing wrong with reverence to Bo, who was a great leader and really good coach. The team message is the correct message, because it is about puting the team first and foremost above all else. They are a family, play for them. That is a cornerstone to a winning program.
That also means that the team comes first above coaching friendships, etc. If the offense is not going to get better under Borges, then Hoke needs to walk the walk and make changes. It is not good enough to talk the talk, because then the words don't mean anything.
Bo was wearing a headset when he gave that speech
It has no relevance anymore. Move on past Bo already. The fanbase's worship of Bo is why we suck-we are stuck back in the days when the Rose Bowl was cool and when Big Ten championships were king. Until Michigan's goal is national championships and while we still think Bo is king, we are going to suck
Did you listen to the speech? It's timeless. It's not about offensive schemes or anything, just depending on and supporting your teammates.
Also, I'm not sure how us losing to Iowa and Nebraska is due to us not prioritizing the national championship.
Wrong. It IS about winning Big Ten titles and the Rose Bowl. These are noble achievements, worthy of praise. Only the most shallow of fans would regard a conference championship and Rose Bowl berth as some form of failure.
Except the Rose Bowl is basically a consolation prize at this point and is even more of one next year.
Michigan football is not in position to turn down consolation prizes.
I don't believe a B1G title is consolation.
Winning conference titles and Rose Bowls are great, don't get me wrong. But your ultimate goal should be a national championship at a place like this. If you place your Michigan's ceiling at a Rose Bowl, then you're selling the program short. Or you're just living in the past.
As much as I hate the guy, I bet if you talked to Urban Meyer about what his goals for his team are, they don't want to be holding up a Rose Bowl trophy. They want to hoist a crystal football. I bet you Nick Saban's bunch considers anything less than a national championship to be a failure at this point.
The ultimate goal should be a national championship when you have the brand, talent and resources to compete for one.
or least only have one loss. So the statement about winning the conference still applies.
Anyways, you miss the point. That speech is a mission statement. It's about how the program will be run and what is expected from everyone inside it. It says nothing about limiting the potential of the program.
Bo is saying that we will win games and we will do it the right way. How can anyone object to that?
I never really understood why its so difficult for people to have a national championship as the ultimate goal. Winning your conference should be viewed, in my opinion, as part of the process. I'm not objecting at all to Bo's beliefs in how a program should be run ethically. I just don't understand why its so difficult for people to say that a national championship should be this program's ultimate aspiration. Why not come out and say it in plain words?
You talk to anyone on Bama's, OSU's, FSU's, or Oregon's roster, and I'd be shocked if there was any of them that didn't tell you a national championship was their goal for the season.
How about you set your goals like Charles and the team did in 1997? Charles said ''How about we just win?'' Not ''Let's win the conference and go to the rose bowl''. He said let's just win.
You're getting really wrapped up in semantics here. To win the Big Ten, you pretty much have to go undefeated. To win the national title, you pretty much have to go undefeated. Not a huge difference.
Because Wisconsin the last two years was undefeated right? Wisoconsin, msu, and osu were undefeated in 2010 right? OSU was undefeated in 2009 right? Oh...except they weren't. Setting your goals short is what has done this program in for years. Did you not hear the story about the recruit that chose Miami because ''They want to win national titles and Michigan is content with going to Rose Bowls.'' ? Playing for the rose bowl is okay if you're msu. It's not okay if you're Michigan.
the rose bowl is junk compared to the national championship. but the big 10 title? its looking pretty likely that osu will make the national championship game if they win the big ten championship, with baylor losing and the voters unlikely to keep fsu #2 if winston is charged with rape
The Rose Bowl is a fine achievement, but is not the ultimate prize. Back in the day it was the "Grand Daddy" of them all. But the game has changed and National Championships are what the ulitimate goal has to be. You don't hear Urban Meyer blathering about Big Ten Championships and the Rose Bowl. He wants to win National Championships.
Big Ten Championships matter to teams like MSU, Wisconsin, Iowa because that is their ceiling. The ceiling for OSU is a National Championship and it should be the ceiling for UM as well. Focus on the top prize, not the consolation. Kids today want to play for National Championships. Kids in the 70's wanted to play for Big Ten Championships and Rose Bowls.
Bo is not the reason UM is struggling. To blame reverence for a great coach for a program's struggles is a stupid statement to make. UM is struggling because they aren't doing what they used well under Bo--run the ball and play great defense--the very things that Saban has used to dominate the game.
UM's is struggling because the quality of coaching isn't what it needs to be, not because of alleged focus on the Big Ten title over the national title.I cannot believe that you even wrote that nonsense.
Where in his comment did you get "Bo is the reason UM is struggling"?
struggles which is clearly asinine. OSU reveres Woody and they win. Bama reveres Bear and they win. UM's struggles have nothing to do with Bo, but with subpar coaching. That and only that is why UM is a mediocre program.Lord knows they have invested the money to keep up with the Joneses and the recruiting has been outstanding.
because the media, the administration, the fanbase and the frickin AD want the second coming of Bo to walk through the doors and save the program. There is NO MICHIGAN MAN! He died. He's gone. He was a great man and a great coach, but he's gone. "The Team" speech/concept is great, but without coaches that can teach and prepare and players that can execute, it is all just words.
This program will never improve until they let him go and move on. Nick Saban is not any kind Bear Bryant, but that program found a coach that wins everywhere and proved it BEFORE he showed up. Michigan chose a Bo 'type' of guy and it's not working. He and this staff are in WAYYY over their heads.
If Hoke doesn't fire at least four staff then he will fail ultimately as head coach. This program is on the brink of disaster and if he doesn't see it and do something soon, it might be too much to overcome.
I think wanting the second coming of Bo is exactly what we need. I think the problem is arbitrarily defining where the second coming of Bo can come from.
Nick Sabain IS the second coming of Bear Bryant. Just like Bryant, he won everywhere he went and he's turned Bama into a elite powerhouse. That's all Bama needs to define someone as the next Bryant. All we need to find the next Bo is a guy that has us in the national title picture year after year (yes, easier said than done), it doesn't matter where in the hell he comes from as long as he can do that.
The second coming of Bo or Bear Bryant is about leadership and presence. The scheme can be different, but you need the personalities who are big and wont settle for anything less than excellence. Right now we are not getting excellence. We are getting mediocrity.
SalvatoreQuattro I agree with you. Bo was great for Michigan. The issue is with the quality of the coaching today!
We want the Big Ten championship and we're gonna win it as a Team.
Seems like Michigan fans should want a Big Ten championship. I'd much prefer a trophy in Schembechler Hall than in Columbus or East Lansing or Iowa City.
They can throw out all those great backs, and great quarterbacks, and great defensive players, throughout the country and in this conference, but there's gonna be one Team that's gonna play solely as a Team.
Having played team sports, you're better off having a team that plays well as a team than a few individuals that are great who play selfishly with no chemistry in the locker room.
No man is more important than The Team. No coach is more important than The Team. The Team, The Team, The Team, and if we think that way, all of us, everything that you do, you take into consideration what effect does it have on my Team?
Again, football is a team sport; to win, everyone needs to be accountable to the team.
Because you can go into professional football, you can go anywhere you want to play after you leave here. You will never play for a Team again. You'll play for a contract. You'll play for this. You'll play for that. You'll play for everything except the team, and think what a great thing it is to be a part of something that is, The Team.
In college football, the philosophy is much more team oriented than professional football.
We're gonna win it. We're gonna win the championship again because we're gonna play as team, better than anybody else in this conference, we're gonna play together as a team. We're gonna believe in each other, we're not gonna criticize each other, we're not gonna talk about each other, we're gonna encourage each other. And when we play as a team, when the old season is over, you and I know, it's gonna be Michigan again, Michigan.
Behaving as accountable teammates is an important facet of winning. Winning > losing, and Michigan has the expectation of winning.
Which part of the speech has "no relevance any more"? I honestly don't think there's one sentence that's irrelevant. Where did I go wrong here?
No man is more important than the team. That includes coaches too. I'm hoping Hoke does the right thing at the end of the season and honestly evaluates the coaching staff and makes changes or not, based on what's best for the team, the team, the team. If he keeps certain members of the staff because they're buddies then Hoke is not about the team therefore he is not a " Michigan Man ".
Time is going to creep until this season is over.
The team doesn't, I don't, and I suspect there are many here who would not choose to be part of your "we".
Well, I sympathize and have thought the same about the niners.
I actually think Hoke is a very good leader, just not a good coaching mind.
If I was a fair weather fan I wouldnt be upset at UM. I would be cheering for MSU and sayiing "I cheer for the state of Michigan." Because I love the team so much, I am very upset when they fail. It isnt like I want them to lose, but I cant stand them losing games that we shouldnt be. When the coaching staff is wasting so much talent. It is just like a parent who yells at their kid when the kid screws up. They love the kid so much that they get mad when the kid does something stupid. Sure it is probably unhealthy to love something so much you cant control, but that is how I am and I am not going to change.
Go blue..i watch every week and i get upset when we lose but really..people are terrible and just bandwagon folk like that jumped on the basketball wagon..go blue..disappointed in some of our fans...fux ohio..
Gives me chills
"It was never a slogan for Bo," former Michigan coach Lloyd Carr, an assistant in 1983, said of Schembechler's focus on the team.
I think this is the key between what M-Wolverine mentioned and how others might view this speech. I would argue that this speech is essentially the culture of Bo's staff in a nutshell. More than words, that's simply how it was. It is definitely not a bad thing to work towards, and indeed, I think Hoke's staff has done a very good job of beginning to move the culture back in this direction. It seems like "The Team" is the program's "true north" statement again, if you will.
culture, not schemes. It is timeless. That is Michigan's mission statement. That is the expectation every coach who follows should adher to.
People say that this is "living in the past" just don't get it and probably never will.
The speech is not about schemes. Unfortunately the people who run this program seem to feel that the only way to play Michigan football is to stick to Bo's schematic approach.
The criteria for a coach should be a high character guy committed to the university and making the players successful on and off the field.
After that look at a history of winning and an innovative approach to the game that is successful with a verity of talent.
Connection to Michigan program, some pre existing knowledge of its tradition and commitment to the programs historical offensive and defensive approach should be irrelevant. Unfortunately these last criteria are what's most important to the university's and athletic departments leadership
I'd just ask that we be careful with our wishes.
The last time we wanted a complete rebuke of what the former program stood for, we came away with Coach Rod's tenure.
And for what its worth, Bo was quite an innovator, particularly when compared to his greatest competition, Woody Hayes. He passed more than Woody and he ran option. These are old-fashioned to us today, but in those days, he was way ahead of Woody in terms of scheme.
The '83 season was a success, not a Big 10 title but still 9-3 regular season with wins at MSU and home vs. OSU.
The '84 season (actually the aftermath) is what I remember most fondly about Bo. We went 6-6 and looked sluggish even in some games vs. weak teams. After opening with a win over #1 Miami, we got into a funk (even worse than Funk's coaching), lost 6 games, including a shutout 26-0 by Iowa. We lost to MSU and OSU (like this year)
If you've read Bo's Lasting Lessons book, you'll know how he responded during the off-season and how the staff prepared for the '85 season, completely under the radar, but finished 10-1-1 and #2.
Nope. Hoke is NOT Bo - who is?
The real measure of Hoke will be how we perform in '14. Another crapper (8-5 or worse!) then time to promise a Harbaugh (John or Jim) $10 million to fix what's broke here.
I'm just ready for this POS season to end and for Hoke to be under pressure to come out next year PO'ed at the world.
That bullshit report was invented by losers who are not journalists, but children playing journalist.
I agree with Harbaugh's never coming here, however, I am sure Harbaugh was genuinely interested until certain NFL teams were more interested in him. Once he realized he could stay where he was location wise for his family, and coach Pro-Ball, he decided that was his eventual goal anyway and skip the step up in College
Funny how you left out the key part of that 6-6 finish in '84: Harbaugh breaking his arm. Hard to win when your All-American quarterback is out of the lineup midway through week 5.
and starting for the first year after Steve Smith had QBed Michigan 3 straight seasons.
IN 1984 Harbaugh was not a Jedi yet.
So, for instance, when Jamie Morris described that season on WTKA last week and said it all fell apart after Harbaugh broke his arm, at which point they had to install a new offense every week just to get something passable with the talent they had, he was just making stuff up? I mean, he only played on that team...
that year, but with a lot more option play because Zurbrugg had decent option skills and good footspeed, but his passing was suspect. Michigan quickly became one dimensional on offense, which opponents were able to control.
Harbaugh was very talented and highly recruited back in 1982, but in 1984 was only a Soph and had very limited playing experience. Michigan's offense was anemic in the first 4 games of the 1984 that Harbaugh started, which did not bode well despite a hot start (beating Miami). 1984 was a lot like 1979 and 1975 years when Michigan had to turn to inexperienced QBs. Unlike 1979 (8-4) and 1975 (8-2-2) seasons, 1984 ended worse because of turnovers and the team's overall youth. .
One could argue Gardner broke his mojo half way through the season, that's like breaking your arm after game 5, right? Hard to win when your starting qb gets his 1st taste of starting qb for a full season where expectations were HUGE and completely unfounded (this falls on coaches too for giving him #98) and teams prepared for you, and he plays behind a line that is the only part of the team that has less experience than him. Real tough I would say. Let's not forget this is Gardner's 1st trip to the rodeo. He went for a ride or two sure, but he's never gone through a full season before and he's never gone through a season after experiencing a full season of defenses preparing for him.
But who am I? I'm just a Go Blue rah rah guy who is blinded by loyalty. To hell with some realism! This is a me me me instant gratification nation where if a national title isn't achieved in 2-3 years than cry/sniff/wail....it's not fair/i wanna win/i deserve to win/what I want/when I want it!!! This sucks/hes fat/where a coat/not fair/we deserve more/I'm a paying fan so someone has to answer to ME!!!! Me Me Me!!!
Before the Pistons won back to back championships, they lost in the playoffs at progressively increasing different stages. Until finally they won it all and it was sweet. Real sweet. Yeah, UM is not where anyone wants it, but the hope of a better tomorrow and then the fruition of that tomorrow makes all the struggles worthwhile. I choose to believe the better tomorrow will come. But I don't demand it comes now. Sue me! That's what I think. Go Blue!! Beat the buckeyes! Let it all hang out!!!
Well I have been reading MGoBlog for the past hour or two, and I just have to step away after this. Yes Bo's speech was genuine and true. It is also true that this squads offense is just the pits. I just don't see how they're going to defeat Ohio. I posted elsewhere that one of my fondest Michigan football games was the 1995 upset when Biakabatuka went for 313 yards rushing against OSU, in a year where people were saying Michigan wasn't going to win.
In fact, I recall sitting in my car on North Campus, It was in the evening. I had just pulled into a parking spot (back when there was parking on NC) and was listening to WTKA and the guys were saying they didn't think Michigan could beat OSU. I was saddened, but had to go do whatever it was I was there to do.
Fast forward to the following Saturday and I watched in amazement as Biakabatuka gashed Ohio over and over for 5 yards, 8, 9, 14, again and again. I don't recall a lot of really long runs but lots of 5-10 yard runs.
However that feat required a line that could run block, which we don't have.
So... sigh. I will watch and hope beyond hope for this team to pull off the upset. But I just don't see how it could happen with a team that can't do anything at all on offense. Defense wins championships but you have to score at least a few times, somehow.
Run the ball and play stifling defense. If UM did those two things they wouldn't be 7-4 right now.
Good point. Also I never took a potshot at Bo even though you assumed I did.