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The defense is the issue at hand not the offense, or the recruiting. So why call for RR's head when he is doing all that he can to get this team back into shape. Gre Robinson has shown time and time again that he does not have what it takes to coach a defense! I will always stand behing the head coach because I am devoted to Michigan Football!! All we need is a defense and we are well on our way to winning the Big10 again.
FIRE GREG ROBINSON!!!
... the buck didn't stop at Alben Barkley.
(look it up).
Just visited the Harry Truman library and museum in Independence, MO recently. There are responsibilities one assumes as the boss. If Greg Robinson isn't getting the job done, then Rich Rod is not getting the job done.
RR brought GERG here, so yes, he's ultimately accountable for GERG's failures. But that doesn't mean we have to throw out the baby with the bathwater. RR hired Jeff Casteel. He hired Scott Shafer. He hired Calvin Magee. It's not like he has a history of screwing up coordinator hires. He just blew this last one. I'm willing to give him a chance to find a replacement DC.
Agreed. Robinson is horrible!
That's more concerning than just one.
It's amazing that Rodriguez brought Greg Robinson here in the first place after his WVU teams cut up those atrocious Syracuse GERG defenses.
UM has had top ten classes
Maybe the classes are top 10 when the rankings end, but when you factor in attrition they are easily some of the worst classes we have had at UM. Look at some of Lloyd's classes if you want a good comparison.
Whos fault is the attrition? Who rectuited guys who can't qualify, and can't seem to develop and retain guys who make it campus?
Other teams have attrition, and injuries too, and manage to get defensiv stops ... take Penn State for example.
duh..
When is the last time the team with the #1 class became a dynasty. Ranking the classes is pointless, you have a bunch of HS kids being watched on film and then evaluated. There are literally thousands of kids and we are suppose to expect these kids and classes to be ranked 1 through whatever. The only factor that is important is the results on the field.
and agree with most of what you said, but the teams that have recruited very well normally do end up performing well and quite often become a dynasty. Pete Carroll had 5 stars fighting other 5 stars just to get on the two-deep and look how dominant they were. Florida has consistently brought in tons of talent and this is the first year they have not really looked dynastic. You need look no further than the hated OSU down south to see how aquiring great talent usually equals great success. Class rankings may not be the end-all-be-all but they do mean something.
Boise State is the exception to this, not the rule.
so what would you do if you were DC?
We are clearly better up front than the scondary so I would load the box and try and apply more pressure. We can't expect these young kids in the secondary to make big plays. We need the size and speed of the OL and line backers to take the pressure off. Apply pressure and the QB is bound to make mistakes, especially a walk on QB.
Look at all the plays we get gashed on for long yards...throwing situations. We do decent against the run but when anyone drops back to throw we all hold our breath.
I am not saying I can do a better job but is it too much to ask for that someone step up and fix the defense?!
slowly walk the defense through this thing they call a "counter" play and show them why it is so important for them to follow there responsibilities and not over pursue this type of play, every feaking time....Our D was exposed with these types of plays started at the UMass game. You would think that they would have at least figured out how to better defend these types of running plays by now.....MSU, Iowa and now PSU killed us with these same basic running plays..... Its not like they are running the mysterious "triple option" play...
I agree that we need more pressure up front. At least if we get burned on some big plays our offense can get back on the field and stay in rhythm. It is clear that playing in rhythm is important for this offense, and having the defense allow 6+ minute drives for TDs every time kills our offensive momentum and timing.
1st off I wouldn't run the 3-3-5 because it's not working now. I thought the phrase went "if it isn't broken don't fix it", not "if it's not working keep doing it". A couple times they got pressure tonight, but with still with only 3 guys it doesn't work, and since the corners can't cover anyway, why does it matter? Go with the 4-3 or 4-4. Van Bergen, Martin/Banks, Black, and Roh would be lethal. The only part of this defense I have some faith in is the d-line.
2nd, I would bring Charles Woodson and Sean Crable back to teach these guys how to hit and tackle right.
I thought the phrase went "if it isn't broken don't fix it", not "if it's not working keep doing it".
That latter would be the definition of insanity.
Serious question though, did Notre Dame make a mistake by not giving Davie, Willingham, or Weis more time? Do you really think any of those guys who had gotten the job done if they had been given more time.
Not to butt in, but I definitely think they fired Willingham too soon. They canned the guy after three years basically because his recruiting rankings weren't high enough to make anyone believe he would turn it around, then the players he'd recruited went to back to back BCS bowl games under Weis. Not sure how it would have played out after that, but obviously Charlie was not an upgrade in the end.
situation bro. People need to realize this. While Rich's teams keep showing improvement on offense, this never happened with any of the above named coaches.
As the dude above you said, Willingham did. It just was after he got canned. His classes panned out well.
They definitely fired the man too quickly, but its hard to argue that Willingham would have gotten the job done at Notre Dame. The way that he ran the Washington program into the ground, its hard for me to believe that he would have ever been good enough at Notre Dame. So in that respect, it turned out to be the right decision for Notre Dame.
they could not have fired that man soon enough. His first class (or two? foggy memory) panned out well. After that, there was a devastating drop in talent... And look what happened to weis when those kids were seniors. Some of the blame still falls on weis, sure.
This is how it went down. A prominent official met with Willingham during his 3rd year, expressing concern with the major recruiting neglect. Willingham responds by saying he was contacted by Washington, and would like to grant their request for an interview.... and you're telling me this dude didn't deserve to get fired? He completely slacked on recruiting, when he gets questioned about it... he basically responds: F U, if you don't like it, i can leave
But if you want an idea as to what would happen if Ty had more time with his ways instilled and a little talent on offense, look no further than Washington with Jake Locker. Willingham slowly rotted that program out. 0-12 in his final year!!! And yes, ask anyone who followed the UW program, and/or its recruiting, he slacked again at Washington.
That's stupidly oversimplistic. If we go 5-7 this year and lost our next four games by twenty points, then good riddance to him. We need a head coach, not a glorified offensive coordinator; JLS was good at making an offense, but his teams ultimately sucked.
I'd agree that firing RR now would be f'ing stupid, but it may be the right choice by the end of the season. Not even considering that as a possibility would be f'ing stupid.
But not the assistants.
RR is responsible for GERG. If he can't find the right defensive coordinator two times now, what confidence can we have that he would if we gave him another chance?
He had the right DC the first time. That's what's frustrating.
All while claiming he doesn't know much about D.
There is absolutely no doubt that he blew it in 2008 with the defensive staff. I do harbor hope, though, that he can learn from that and give his DC the autonomy he needs. But that DC needs to be someone other than GERG.
Maybe this is why the defensive players were so pissed off at him that year
3rd time's the charm...
RR is the HEAD F'ING COACH. That means you take responsibility for the whole team. Blaming the D Coord is a cop out. RR runs the show, and that means he's responsible for it. This "blame GERG not RR" stuff is garbage. It's been bad all season, and whatever RR has or has not done has failed.
^^^ this...
You're going to have a busy night of neg--bombing and RR defense posts...
Maybe we should blame the person who fired Scott Schafer and hired GREG...
Give me a break. The same clowns that are now calling for Rich Rod's head were witch hunting Schafer 2 years ago. Knee jerk reactions are the best these people can come up with, and we'll hear them from now till the end of time.
I didn't think that the defense was the problem in '08 and Thought that it was a cop out to place all the blame for 3-9 on Schafer. Also I find it funny that no mater what the DC wants to do the team ends up playing a 3-3-5. If RR stuck to offence and didn't fiddle with the defense and make it worse each year I would still support him.
Dude, you stole my thunder. I think the powers that be panicked after 3-9, and had to place the blame on someone. Couldn't place the blame on RR at the time as it was his first year, and they were starting a transfer and a walk-on at QB ( the most importan position in the offense) so obviously, it was the D's fault, and down goes Schafer.
Didn't RR hire Greg?
He has change two DCs, but no improvement. He has no clue.
RR is in charge of every inch of the program. That's why he is a millionaire. If he had any balls, he'd either ditch the 3-3-5 or GERG or both.
Have anyone on staff (or have open tryouts like they did for the PK) take the defense. Couldn't be any worse than it is now.
nt
we had guys in position to make plays and they just didn't do it. Mouton having Royster at the line and it becoming a fifteen yard gain, Talbott in position for an INT or at least a PBU and he gets neither and the WR runs for 30+ after the catch, Roh overpursuing as he yells there it goes again on the counter. I could continue, but why beat a dead horse.
The 3-3-5 needs to go ASAP and this falls on RR. Without Martin this team has zero chance of being successful in this package and PSU exposed that despite having a sub par rushing attack most of the season. and starting a walk on at QB. It wastes Roh's talents as an edge rusher and puts him in a position where he is obviously struggling.
The staff had two weeks to come up with a plan to beat a team that had been struggling on both sides of the ball and this is what we get. A walk on looking like he's all Big Ten. Finally, when Tate struggled last year he brought in Denard for a series or two despite DRob being nothing more than a glorified RB. If Denard's shoulder is not healthy does RR want a repeat of last year? Tate is capable give him a chance. My expectations have dropped to hoping for a win at Purdue to get bowl eligible. I really don't want to see RR fired, but if he can't win in the Big Ten he must go especially since last night was the first time in my life I turned off a Michigan game before it was over because I had no faith that they could come back.
I really like our offense and am really excited to see how it does with more experience/talent. I hate the thought that changing head coaches might mean a change in offensive scheme and, inevitably, more transfers. But the defense is a disaster. I have zero faith in GERG now. He went up against a team with a walk-on QB, which ran an extremely limited playbook, and still managed to be outcoached. Blackledge summed it up: "These defensive backs are shellshocked." They have no confidence, and how can you blame them when their DC is afraid to put them in a place to make plays even against a walk-on QB?
But RR needs to recognize that he needs an ace DC, and that DC needs the leeway to run the defense how he sees fit. What's frustrating is that RR got it right the first time. When Casteel wouldn't come, he hired a bright young mind in Scott Shafer. But he didn't give him the support he needed - when there was staff dissention, he inexplicably sided with the position coaches over Shafer. And then he hired an old retread in GERG, a man who coaches like it's the 1970s and QBs can't throw.
RR needs to let GERG go, find the best DC he can, pay top dollar (with Brandon's approval) to get him - and then give him whatever he needs.
RR ans ace OC and a horrible HC? He's in over his head and has failed at Michian. Why even defend the guy? I understand people believeing that he is a great OC, but that is only ~50% of the game.
everywhere he has gone whether he's a OC or HC. His track record speak for itself.
Really? That's you're arguement? I guess the UM sucks ass, and RR is God.
What has RR done at Michigan? Give me some facts? This is not the BE, this is not WVU. I'm saying he's not right for Michigan.
It is too bad the Michigan fan base is too entitled and whiney they don't want to work to win.
Congrats for being that guy. Again, the guy has won 4 games, and your only arguement is that 3 years ago, Lloyd was the worst guy ever and gave poor Rich no people.
I guess we'll see what happens in the next 2 weeks. I hope Michigan wins, and I'l lose my voice at the Illinois game next week, but please wake up. RR may be awesome but he fucked up his coaching job at Michigan. Take that to the bank!
Are you bouje
A lot of people are going to owe you and Bando an apology...
team beat Georgia and Oklahoma in the BCS bowl. Your argument that WVU did it in a weak Big East fails.
.
Just win, baby.
13-19 so far. I am not for bailing yet, but let's not kid ourselves that his pre-Michigan record is some guarantee of success here.
Ask anyone at West Virginia if he was a good HC. They may dislike him as a person, but they respect his coaching ability. The key difference there is that he had an ace DC (Casteel). Here he's had a shackled Shafer and GERG.
is not West Virginia and the Big Ten is not the Big East. Rich's biggest fault is that he thought what worked at WVU would work at UM. It hasn't, but he doesn't know any different so he can't change his approach. It's a catch-22 that will end badly.
How has the offense not worked here? I'll take that offense over any other in the conference.
The issues with the offense seem to be inability to give the D breaks. The first drive tonight was complete crap. When the offense needs to be better than the D, it has struggled. This is the calling card of RR and they had 10 pts at the half against a crappy PSU D.
They've put stuff on the board out of pure desperation in the Big 10. The offense knows the limitations of the D and every stinking possession ought to be about finding every way possible to score on every drive. (That means no Iso's with Vincent Smith) I realize they aren't trying to not score, but they have to put points on the board all the time. Anything goes.
vincent smith experience is killing me. he is great on the perimeter but has no business doing anything between the tackles. And would it be too much to ask to put the power backs in when we need 1-2 yards and NOT the little fast guy still recovering from an ACL?
Watching Smith plow into the line on 3rd and short and get nothing is becoming old. Why in the world Hopkins isn't in there is beyond me.
Have you watched Michigan play any Big Ten games this year? The default offense (with Denard at the helm) is incapable of passing the ball down the field when the game is still in contention.
his own staff.
This is Michigan. Open the bank vault and get the best guy money can buy and give RR another year as HIS offense is solid. With his mainly hands-off approach to D, we need someone who would be something of a co-general along side RR to handle the D.
It's not Rod's fault IRREGARDLESS of what you think :)
IRREGODDAMNGARDLESS
If this is what we have to deal with for the next seven weeks, Lord help us all...
Our defense has a bunch of rad players and the coach is holding them back. All those talented upperclassmen like Woolfolk and Martin and...well at least that is two guys who played in this game. It's like these guys in the secondary have never seen the field before.
And if you haven't guessed, I think anyone who is now surprised our defense sucks is a fucking retard.
I honestly don't think anyone expects a good defense at this point. What most people should be expecting is that the defense would come out after two weeks off and playing the worst B10 offense they've seen this season to look prepared.
The tackling issues are still there.
There was never a response to the short throws.
We continue to play 3 down linemen against a power running team.
Roh is still playing as a LB. (I think that bothers me the most, not sure about the rest of you.)
Not enough was done to dial up more pressure against a terribly inexperienced QB. He wasn't making the best decisions or throws when there was pressure.
I think all of these are the complaints I've seen the most, and they all seem pretty valid. Maybe you disagree.
playing the CBs 10 yards off the LOS
The "Decimated Defense" argument rings a little hollow when it's week 9 and - coming off a bye week, no less, you get destroyed by an equally decimated offense. The progress we need to see is simply not there.
Your timeline for the progress of young players is way off base. Do you remember how David Harris played as a junior? Prescott Burgess? Our defense started 6 underclassmen and just about every backup is a freshman. Oh, and they lost their best and really only top-shelf player.
As for comparisons, that "decimated offense" still had the leading rusher in Penn State history. Who is comparable on our defense? Moye is a junior who had over 700 yards receiving last year and is on pace for more this year. They've had loads of injuries but their roster situation is nowhere near as bad as our defense's at present.
Oh, wait....nevermind.
Then why are you complaining. We blitzed a bunch in this game ("dialing up pressure"). They picked it up easily or found open receivers because, big surprise, the guys doing the jobs aren't very good yet. Making nit-picky complaints about strategy and acting like those are the cause of the defense's struggle (and not the ridiculously young roster) amounts to searching for scapegoats. It is an exercise done by people who can't accept reality and think football coaches are all-powerful beings.
And not to beat a dead horse, but young players miss tackles. There is a reason every coach in America wants a team dominated by upperclassmen. Acting like there is a coaching failure when Courtney Avery or Ray Vinopal miss a tackle is just silly.
I don't think it is too much to ask of a coaching staff to recognize the problems that are evident in their scheme and to adjust accordingly. This defense has not adjusted to defend a simple counter ever since UMass used it. It is not unfair or nit picky to expect to see improvement when coming off of a bye week against a terrible offense.
I completely understand the problems presented by the youth and depth of the defense. However, I believe it is fair to expect progress as the season goes on. You can't honestly say you have seen the defense as a unit progress this season.
Also, PSU did not pick up all, or even a majority of the blitzes. Also, if you believe that blitzing is the only way to get pressure, then we obviously have a philosophical difference in how we believe a defense can work. I'm a firm believe in using your line to apply pressure. With only 3 down lineman that becomes nearly impossible.
The coaches I'm sure knew where the talent and depth was on this defense as far back as spring. A 4-2-5 defense is relatively easy to install or adjust to from the 3-3-5 as Michigan runs it. It allows them to play the zone they feel is necessary to protect the youth in the secondary, but also plays to the strength of the defense, which is obviously the line.
So your plan is, apply more pressure without blitzing. In other words, make the defensive line play better. And that running a 4-2-5 instead of a 3-3-5 (since of course that is all this defense ever runs) will make Jonas Mouton not overrun plays. Clearly you have cracked the case.
Teams don't visibly progress throughout a season, because as it turns out the other team is practicing and getting better too. The idea that they do or that "he's not a freshman anymore" is just cliche-speak from talking heads and armchair quarterbacks.
atleast next year we'll likely go 6-0 before blowing the season
Even though it does nothing to change our record - what does this game look like if Woolfolk is playing and Martin is healthy? If we had even one corner that we could trust, I think that opens the door for a lot more defensively. The defense is driving me nuts too, but when you don't have a good horse, it doesn't matter how good your jockey is.
I would hate to throw away another year of great offense on another terrible defense if Gerg is not the guy, but at the same time, maybe some of our young athletes can step up (MRob, Furman, etc.) and we can get healthy and see what Gerg can do with more talent.
You are missing the point. What if PSU didn't have like 15 injured players and a walk on QB? We suck on D, and our O is telling Denard to create magic.
No, I get the point. I agree that our defense sucks, I am just wondering what kind of scheme would work with this secondary. I am as concerned as anybody that we have not seen much progress out of the defense, but I don't know at this point how much is scheme/coaching and how much is lack of talent. That being said, if we can find a stud DC by throwing a HC-level salary at him, I would support it.
maybe RR can fire Gerg and promote his buddy Gibson to DC, then also fire him by the end of the season.
Gibson's special team cost how many games so far? missed FG, penalties, kick off out of bound...
Gerg took over the LB's this season, and lots of people thought that this was a good idea, but it seems to me that the LB play has gotten worse.
The LBs actually have improved: Mouton went from bad last year to OK this year. Demens is an upgrade over Obi. The problem is that going from bad to OK isn't enough of an upgrade, but I do think GR gets credit for this improvement.
They weren't OK tonight. Misdirection, once again, left them out of the play time and again.
PSU gained about 400 yards on 3 plays - passes to the flat on 3rd down, screens, and Royster runs up the middle. Any coord that cannot adjust to that in 4 quarter of play needs to go.
This is a very simple take, but it's dead on.
Michigan lost to what was, in effect, a offensive playbook which was less complicated than a Tecmo Super Bowl Play book.
It was pathetic.
The Giants Flea Flicker was awesome!
What really got me was that practically every pass play was a rollout to his right, but it never seemed to occur to us to try to send pressure from that side.
i'm as patient as anyone and completely understand the personnel issues. but after watching this total abortion of a D the past 2 years, the lack of adjustments completely befuddle me. as stated above psu was torching the D on basically the same plays. yet, we continue to play the soft zone.
why not change it up? bring 9-10 guys in or near the box? that would prevent the short stuff from gaining anything, or at least give the opportunity to make some no gainers. if there was a team to do this against, it is psu with an inexperienced walk on QB. make HIM beat you. hell, i can step on the field now and dump a little screen pass. make him beat you deep. ya, there may make a few big plays, buy dying the slow death game after game after game is completely insane.
I somewhat agree. RR is responsible to a degree since he hired Gerg, but at the sametime during the 3rd quarter RR sprinted over to the D during a timeout yelling like a mad-man trying to get them fired up, and what happened after that? They went out and got a stop and we pulled within 14pts (might've been 7, can't remember for sure). Point is, most head coaches spend most of their time with whatever their specialty is (Meyer spends his time with the O, so does Spurrier, etc.) and leave most of the coaching for the other side of the ball to the coordinator. It seems to me that RR is realizing (finally?) that Gerg just can't get the guys to play with that hard edge he talks about, and he took it upon himself to do something about it, as he should. Is it youth, or is it coaching? I don't think we can know for sure, but there are many signs that the defensive coaching staff (save for maybe Bruce Tall) just isn't very good. I wish we could get Casteel so that the transition to the scheme would be minimal, but really I think we need a somewhat young yet proven coordinator that has that killer instinct, take no prisoners attitude to come in and bring some of their own assistants. The assistants I think are just as much the issue as the coordinator.
We got a stop because GERG called a blitz they weren't expecting and after Gordon's sack we were able to hold on by the skin of our teeth to force a punt.
If shouting at people made them good at football, Notre Dame would be undefeated right now.
Anyone who can look at our defensive roster and expect a not-crappy unit doesn't know anything about football.
Yes, I was saying yelling at them turns them into all-americans, obviously...
What I saw was a defense playing scared prior to that, then I saw a defense afterwards that actually had a slight swagger. That's what coaches do, they motive, they get them to play with a fire and tenacity. Does it always work? Nope. Does it work sometimes? Yes. Can it only go so far? Yes. All I'm saying is that in this particular instance, I saw a difference in the defense, lucky blitz or no blitz.
The defense made one positive play, the sack by Gordon that directly resulted from a blitz called by GERG. After that they nearly gave back the twenty yard advantage it created and on the next possession they let PSU again march down the field for a FG. If that is "swagger" then I think your sample size is a little off. The DB's did not play "scared." They played "crappy". They did that because they aren't very good, either because they severely lack talent (Rogers and Floyd) or because they are true freshmen (Talbott, Christian, Avery). Those are the only guys we got. The fact that GERG hasn't turned them into even a barely competent unit just means he is a human being.
I would say that they displayed more than they had been up until that point, like I said. And yes, they were playing scared, and thus were playing crappy, that's what happens when you play scared. I'm not blaming them in a way, some of them are true freshman, but at the same time that's what a good chunk of the problem is and it needs to be addressed. The lack of talent is a factor, yes, but they lack fundamentals just as much as talent (save for Floyd in some instances). Is it merely due to youth and inexperience? I don't know, I want to just chalk it up to that and give the coaches a free pass and believe they're all awesome coaches, I really do. But at what point should the coaches be held responsible? Not a simple answer, and is something that I think we're going to be debating on this board for the next year.
When experienced players and upperclassmen are starting you can judge the coaches on the defensive side of the ball. That 2008 offense made a ton of mistakes and couldn't do anything right. Did it mean Rodriguez and Magee were fucking up or was it because the roster was a big bag of shit? This defense sucks for the same kinds of reasons (lack of experienced talent and a ton of underclassmen seeing the field for the first time). Next year the defense will be better/competent (think 2009 offense) and with our offense it will be good enough to win a whole lot of games. The year after that they have a chance to be really good (think 2010 offense).
I know it is frustrating but on some rational level we all should have known this was going to happen.
I really, really hope that's true. I do. Otherwise it's going to probably be even longer before we're back to where we all want to be.
we have guys who are experienced leave every year because they don't want to play for our coaches. If that stops, THEN I buy your argument. Year 3 and it hasn't stopped yet.
horribly coached. these DBs play way off the LOS. shouldn't this allow them to keep an eye on the WR and the QB. but no. our guys are continually running around chasing WRs with their back to the QB. a prime example was psu's first drive of the game when the QB scrambled for 10 yds on 3rd down to get the first down. the DBs all had their back to the QB. one of them should have easily made the play.
it ain't rocket science. you can harp on talent, lack of experience all you want. but these guys are horrible coached and appear to be getting worse. Floyd, Rogers and Cam have gone from seemingly serviceable-looking players early in the season to completely incompetent now.
Please remind me when those guys looked like serviceable players. When we lucked out and UConn dropped every other pass? When Rudolph ran past all of them for a 90 yard TD? When UMass hung 37 points on us? When Indiana torched our entire secondary?
This is the exact same defense we've had all year and the exact same team everybody knew we would have going into the season.
the D was serviceable the first two games. yes, even the DBs. at least in the ND game Cam was in a position to make the play, even the 90 yarder, but seemed to misjudge the ball in flight. ever since, he's consistently been out of position and takes even worse angles. and to deny that floyd didn't play ok those first few games is just being blind. his game has regressed considerably and seems to give up big plays each game now.
We gave up over 500 yards of offense against them, despite the fact that their starting QB missed nearly the entire first half. Gordon also gave up a long TD against UConn. The D was only bailed out in that game because UConn fumbled in the red zone and dropped a ton of passes. And UConn's offense isn't any good.
If by regressed, you mean "continued to play terribly against increasingly competent competition" then yes, this defense has regressed.
Rich Rodriguez is the head coach. He hired Greg Robinson and thus bears responsibility for his performance. And he doesn't get a pass for one bad hire because he only hired Robinson after firing Shafer. And let's not even talk about Hopson.
So unless you're going to argue that it's not the coaches' fault that the defense is as bad as it is (and that it's not their fault that it's regressing as the season goes on...), then it's on Rodriguez.
that is when I'll blame him for the defense! Did he make a bad hire, yes. Can he right a wrong, yes.
Firing RR will only turn us into ND...we all see what that product looks like!
If Rodriguez isn't directly coaching the defense, then it's his job to hire someone who will do a good job. He's failed twice. Three times if you count the disaster that was Hopson. Meanwhile, he's not exactly done well at recruiting defensive players either, when you consider that a bunch of them have failed to qualify, and in a number of cases (particularly Dorsey) he should have known that they were not going to qualify.
The bottom line is that Rodriguez, as head coach, is responsible for the entire team, not just the offense. And he's shown no ability thus far to either coach a successful defense, nor hire someone who can coach a successful defense. Or an adequate defense. Or a below-average defense that isn't a total disaster. Sure there's been injury and depth problems, and he gets something of a pass for that. But the defense has been regressing, to the point that an injury-laden Penn State starting a walk-on QB can shred us when they get two weeks to prepare for them. That is inexcusable, especially when you consider that a healthier Penn State only managed to score 24 against Kent State, 22 against Temple, and 13 against Illinois.
The argument that we are a young and inexperienced defense is defendable when we go against experienced teams and qbs....tonight we got ravaged by a depleted offensive line and nick Sheridan.
And it wasn't even close....
the fact that McLovin is gonna get killed by whoever they play next, yet he looked like Elway out there last night. It's amazing that they were able to do to us exactly what Purdue did last year, trot out a nobody and embarrass us. We scored a ton of points in that game last year too and we still lost.
people can defend Gerg all they want with: its not his fault, our defense doesnt have enough talent or experience. but guess what, anyone can succeed with a lineup of 5star seniors. i dont believe for a second that this defense is in the bottom 20 in terms of talent. and can you really say that we were inferior in talent to UMass.
Gerg has done nothing to warrant keeping his job. his schemes dont work. i cant even remember the last time we won a defensive RPS (this refers to the effectiveness of playcalling). the veteran LBs, who he specifically coaches, are constantly making mental errors. he isnt a big recruiter.
i dont see how you can blame RR for the defensive struggles. hes not the one making the play calls. hes not the one coaching up the players. hes probably not the one making defensive personnel decisions.
i actually found it interesting that RR ran into the defensive huddle and got into the faces of the players, and on that series we got a stop.
i really dont care if hes won superbowls. i dont think he has the type of resume that earns him the benefit of the doubt. if it were up to me, Gerg would be gone at the end of the season. (although i think in reality he will get another yr).
he has looked scared after every game and I remember him running over to Rich Rod after the Inidiana game and Rich just pulled away from him with a look of disgust on his face. I think he is gone gone gone.
Important question: what role do the defensive position coaches play in all of this?
i'm no coach, obviously. and i don't know the coaches. but this D is bad in all areas. yes, even DL. i won't harp on the LBs and DBs. that has been done ad nauseum. but even the DL is poorly coached and we have good talent there.
even with 4 down linemen, the DL constantly fails to keep contain. how many times are we going to see slow QBs get outside the DE on scrambles??? or be nowhere to be found on cutbacks. and the pass pressure, well we all know that's non-existent.
I think a good amount of blame for the defense can rest squarely on Rich Rod's shoulders. The reason I say this is because Rich Rod doesn't seem to trust his D coordinators. Looking across the tenures of both Shafer and Robinson, it seems like Rich Rod is a backseat driver when it comes to the defensive side of the ball. It is apparently not his forte, but when things aren't going right it is almost like he forces his coordinators to put in packages that he likes (i.e. nickel with Shafer and 3-3-5 variant with Robinson). In that way he is the ultimate Sunday Morning Quarterback who goes and second guesses the gameplan at every opportunity.
I realize that a large part of this is just him trying to secure his own job, but the fact of the matter is that for a guy who is trying to sell the winningest program on a radically different way of viewing the game; he seems to have very little patience for buying into his D-coordinators' ability to do their own job. It seems kind of funny to think, but if RR is forced to leave the program, the thing that may have sealed his fate was the fact that he wasn't able to get Casteel (a coordinator he trusts) to follow him out of WVU.
why Casteel didn't follow him?
old guy interim coach who may not be around long. casteel next in line...
was there for RR to trust his defensive coaches prior to the Purdue/Shaeffer debacle in 08. All of 09 and the first 7 games of 2010?
HE was the one who wanted Demens on the field, yet on the 2nd f'ing series vs Iowa Ezeh is back out there and Iowa goes right down the damn field. It was RR who demanded Demens be back in the game, and he f'ing right.
While there is plenty of blame to go around after that less than steller performance on Defense last night. I find your back seat driver comment seriously interesting.
Let me put it this way. You are the boss, you hire someone because you believe that individual can do well. But things start to unravel and the person you put into place to do a job is not meeting your expectation. You now have a difficult balancing act. You need to show respect to the individual you hired by giving them room, yet you know that ultimately you are accountable for the final product. So seeing there is some lacking in the performance you are expecting do you make the judgement call and start to interject your opinion. This normally spells doom for the individual that has their boss stepping in.
I believe that GREG is done. I fully understand the youth/lack of depth. I have stood by those facts religiously, but I have no faith in GREG anymore as it appears RR is quickly losing faith too. The difference here is that I fully expect RR's boss (Mr. Brandon) have a heavy influence in who the next DC is. Again revert back to my first paragraph. Dave wants to give RR every opportunity to win and flourish, but will inject himself into the next DC hiring......
Easy to make a partial shift in the program than to make a major one. That is the ultimate decsion that Mr. Brandon will have to weigh......
i hope brandon and RR do a thorough coaching search for a DC and staff. RR needs to cut bait on all the D coaches, imo. even if it means firing friends.
I don't understand the argument "RR doesn't work in the B10". Are you saying the spread n shed in general wouldn't work in the B10? What evidence is there for that? We have the #2 offense in the country. Did you see what the Iowa D did to MSU today? Did you see what our offense did to that same Iowa D (excluding turnovers). So you are saying that horrible defenses don't work in the B10. Well obviously. I don't understand the need to fire RR immediately. If next year, when the two deep will be filled with non-freshman and people who have actually seen the field and the offense continues to gain experience and cut down on turnovers, we should be fine. I know people are upset and the last 2 1/2 years have not gone to plan. But if we fire RR we will be having this exact same conversation about a new coach 3 years from now.
I think the spread and shread can work in the Big 10. Illinois and Northwestern are good examples of that. However, Rich Rodriguez, the father of the system, has not demonstrated that it will work yet at Michigan against Big Ten opponents.
He took a kid no one considered a QB and turned him into a record setting, Heisman contender as a sophmore. Denard was 20 yards away from having a 3rd 200-200 game last night and last week we hung up points and yards against a good B10 D.
How about looking at how the default offense performs (with Denard at the helm) in Big Ten games that are still in contention (which I'm defining as the point in the second half when Michigan falls 17 points or more behind):
Against Indiana: 42 points on 12 possessions (3.5 pts/pos)
Against MSU: 10 points on 7 possessions (1.4 pts/pos)
Against Iowa: 7 pts on 6 possessions (1.16 pts/pos)
Against PSU: 10 pts on 5 possessions (2 pts/pos)
With the default offense, they can't score because Denard can't pass the ball down the field against Big Ten teams with a pulse (MSU, Iowa, PSU). Maybe it's his shoulder, maybe he's nervous, but he can't pass the ball more than 10 yards downfield. In his third year, with an offense full of his guys, Rodriguez's offense can't get the job done against Big Ten defenses.
Year 1: Sheridan/Threet - not RRod's guys
Year 2: Tate - true freshman
Year 3: Denard - 1st year as starter
but I do think the O should be able to do more than what it does when Denard isn't at the helm.
i think the O is averaging about 500 yds/game in BIG 10 play.
I get the feeling that the coaches aren't on the same page when it comes to the defense. I know Rich Rod wants to run the 3-3-5, but I'm not convinced that GERG is the right guy to do that.
As much as I love GERG and his wonderful hair, I'm wondering if it's time for Rich Rod to give Jeff Casteel a call and convince him to come to Michigan.
We were 1 for 1 in field goals and No turnovers. Lewan had no penalties.
How can Gerg be blamed when he didn't have the ability to pick a single defensive assistant? Is it a coincidence that Shafer looked terrible with these assistants and now Gerg does? Shafer is proving he's one hell of a DC as 'cuse. Why would any decent DC want to come into a situation where he has terrible assistants forced on him just because they are the HCs friends?
DCs rarely have a chance to hire their own position coaches. I don't really think that's it. Besides, GERG had the chance to hire whomever he wanted at Syracuse (when he was the HC) and his defenses were still awful. The evidence suggests that he's just not very good.
im not going to say fire gerg, but why is he not the one yelling at the players to make a stop. Pulling them aside, explaining do this, don't do that. No turnovers on the day and they still lose by 10. Sure the refs had some shady ass calls, but PSU won on the 3rd down conversion everytime! With a walk-on qb at that, scary what might of happened with bolden in at qb. 3rd and 4, lets play zone safeties are so far deep, the out is covered so the slot is wide open with the curl. No adjustments at all.
I know we are short on defensive talent, but I would like to think that a top notch DC would find a way to force a walk-on to try to beat us, rather than let him get into a position where the only throws that he has to make are the ones that any walk-on could make. We do seem to get RPS'd to death, regardless of the players.
We can't have another DC switch. I think that'd sink year four faster than anything else. The guys like GERG. He just needs to lay the hammer down more. Challenge them to succeed more. He's acting too much like their dad on the sidelines. RR fired up the D with his pep talk where he butted in in front of GERG and started yelling, and they went out and played their hearts out for the rest of that series.
This "GERG" deserves more of the blame for Michigan's collapse than RR
The defense has done absolutely nothing to help the offense out
He beat Syracuse all three years that Robinson was there, and WVU put up 41 and 55 points on Robinson's defense in 2006 and 2007.
If it was due to Robinson's tenure with Denver during its Elway-led Super Bowl run, you can balance that out with a 6-10 season as DC with the Jets in 1994, and getting fired as DC by KC after the 2003 season. Besides, if Super Bowl rings automatically translated into college coaching success, then Charlie Weis would still be at ND.
If it was due to Robinson's tenure at UCLA, consider this: from '82 through '88, Robinson was Terry Donahue's DL coach, and during that span UCLA went 66-17-4, and won 7 straight bowl games. In 1989, Robinson was elevated to DC. UCLA promptly went 3-7-1.
If it was due to Robinson's single season at Texas in 2004, that ignores the fact that Robinson was only co-DC and certainly didn't build that defense.
My suspicion all along has been that RR hired Robinson because he knew that GERG was not a fire-breathing guy who would demand that all his assistants do it his way. RR knew that Shafer had no support from the defensive coaches that he brought with him, and figured that an easy-going guy like Robinson would "get along" with the existing staff.
I have the same opinion now about the hiring of Robinson that I did the day I incredulously heard that RR had selected him: Rich Rodriguez may have very possibly hitched his wagon to a horse who was going to drive it over the cliff.
What's this? Reasonable criticism of RichRod? (It's not the only reasonable post in this thread, but it stands out to me.) Good research, too ... nice job.
Of course, it's speculation, but it's intriguing and it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that it's true.
Thank God for the wool being pulled from over peoples' eyes. I felt like I've been taking crazy pills.
Everything he touches turns to shit. If I was as good at my job as he is at his, I'd be living in a van down by the river.
This is RR 3rd year and we are playing 4-5 freshman in the secondary.Why? Because we can't retain anybody.Guys with no shot of being drafted would rather move on and play on the nfl meat squad than stick around.If your a 5 star recruit and weigh 193 instead of the 185 that is demanded,well than you won't be playing.If you are a 5 star corner who is coached to play 15 yards off the LOS and then give up a million yards receiving each week, you too will be benched.We will continually be playing freshman or backups or worse yet walk-ons forever as long as this coaching staff is here.If RR is here next year or the year after it will still be the same thing over and over again."We are still very young in the secondary", but just wait till we get some experience back there. This is like watching Loyola Marymount basketball back in the day(176-163).This defense sux and always will as long as RR is still here.
...that RR, for some reason, isn't the right coach for Michigan. Will one more year make a difference? Probably not defensively. We'll struggle mightily next year, too, notwithstanding the new recruits coming in.
Not sure what to do. Is it the kids? The coaching? The schemes? I just don't know. I recall a play lastnight when Penn State was driving late and threw a long pass toward the end zone. Their receiver dropped the ball in front of Floyd which was clearly a catchable ball. Floyd was so tentative and out of position that I'm thinking it's more of the "bend but don't break" coaching philosophy that's affected the players than it is the players themselves.
It's probably time for a defensive coaching change, but RR likes GERG a lot, so both coaches may have to go.
Dammit. No good options here.
but I can't for the life of me understand why they keep trotting out the 335 against power running teams and expect anything to change. That is the very definition of insanity.
Could be the best solution for both sides. Not like we wouldn't be able to field a defense next week without him.
Not a chance in hell.
He may be a good guy, but he enjoys cashing checks.
DBs are:
Anyone else think we should hold Tony Gibson's feet to the fire?
I do.
this has been a problem with UM's db's for years now (pre-dates' RR imo). I was hoping there would be some improvement in these areas with RR, but so far I've been disappointed.
um, I don't think so. maybe more than there should have been, but since RR the numbers have gone through the roof
looked as bad as he ever has last night at he's a RS soph (i'm pretty sure). i don't know if it's scheme, or ineptitude but something is not working out there.
he looked so lost. he got turned around and took himself out of the play several times. he can't defend a slant to save his life
i hate everything
but part of the blame has to be shouldered by RR. He is the head coach. I think not only GERG needs to go but the whole defensive staff.....
