Bigger loss - Herman (OSU) or Narduzzi (MSU)?

Submitted by PeterKlima on

Yes.  I know.  Both OSU and MSU will be "fine" and we are not going to predict big steps back (although it could happen).

I am just curious who you think is the bigger loss?

 

Herman:

1.  When Meyer lost Mullen, his Florida teams fell off soon thereafter. 

2.  Meyer has a proven track record of picking good coordinators (but not 100%). 

3.  OSU relied heavily on offense this year, but has solid talent coming back on defense.

4. OSU had more talent than MSU, so it might be able to mask any small step back made by a coaching change.

5.  Herman has figured out a way to put tons of points up with a 3rd string QB.

 

Narduzzi:

1.  Narduzzi has been Dantonio's DC for 11 seasons.

2.  There is no history that Dantonio has been able to effectively replace a defensive co-ordinator.

3.  Dantonio was a DC, himself, for OSU's national title team.  Does that translate today?

4. Narduzzi's best defenses all came with Max Bullough on the field.  Before and after Bullough, they were very good, but not dominant. 

5. MSU did not rely on its defense as much as OSU relied on its offense this year. 

 

Personally, I think the loss of Narduzzi is more likely to affect MSU than the loss of Herman at OSU.  The main reason: Meyer has proven that his offenses can be elite with various coordinators.  Dantonio has not proven that.  Plus, it appears that Dantonio relied heavily on Narduzzi and they were "tight."  He is the only DC to ever serve for Dantonio.   It is harder to replace that (on and off the field) than it is a young guy who is hired by a coaching legend.

 

But, who knows.

 

itself

January 2nd, 2015 at 10:46 AM ^

Also, Dantonio locked up an assistant Narduzzi tried to lure away and, I think, promoted said assistant to D Coord. I think their brain trust stays intact. Also, the teams competing in the title game both beat State's vaunted defense. I think Herman is much much more valuable. 

PeterKlima

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:01 AM ^

I don't think anyone considered State's defense "vaunted" this year.

I think Dantonio fighting to keep guys who know the system that Narduzzi convinced Dantonio to run shows how important Narduzzi was, as opposed to Dantonio. 

maize-blue

January 2nd, 2015 at 10:44 AM ^

I'll say Narduzzi but Meyer and Herman seem to be able to put their heads together and come up with good offensive game plans.

Space Coyote

January 2nd, 2015 at 10:45 AM ^

I don't think either is a major loss, as say, Chad Morris was for Clemson, but both are still a loss.

Narduzzi I think was great at getting guys to play. Simply put, he was a great motivator. He also worked a lot with the LBs (with Tressell), so it'll be interesting to see how that position group works out. Likewise, it was his system inside and out. While he brought it to UC with pretty much the same group of guys, and they've run that system the entire time at MSU, so the other coaches are well aware of it, he's been the one calling the plays, dialing up the blitzes, etc, within that system the whole time. So I think he's the bigger loss.

The biggest loss from Herman may be as a position coach, as he really seemed to do wonders as a QB coach. While Meyer has input there, certainly, Meyer works with pretty much all the position groups. And it's mostly Meyer's system as well, one that the OCs adapt to more than the other way around. So while Herman has significant input and calls plays and all that, I think it'll be a bit easier to step in as a game planner and play caller than it will be for the guys replacing Narduzzi.

PeterKlima

January 2nd, 2015 at 10:51 AM ^

I seem to recall people saying that the scheme was Narduzzi's and he had to convince Dantonio to move away from size and toward speed and an attacking defense.  I am sure Dantonio knows a lot about it too, now, but I think your schemes need to evolve as the other teams evolve.  I am not sure if Dantonio's mindset allows that, or whether he allows his new DCs that freedom.

 

Another interesting fact is "who is replacing these guys."  I think Dantonio's move to name his two guys co-DC imp[lies that he needs people who know Narduzzi's system.

 

I don't know who is replacing Herman.

Space Coyote

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:28 AM ^

Narduzzi needed to convince Dantonio to run that scheme. Dantonio was a very multiple DC at OSU, and this Cover 4 scheme was Narduzzi through and through. However, I think by promoting from within, it shows that Dantonio likes what he has set up. I can't blame him, it's a scheme that takes time to implement, they suffered for it for three years, no reason they should turn on what's been working for them now that they've paid the price and seen the reward.

I really think Dantonio did a very smart think by promoting two guys as Co-DCs. What I had heard is that whichever of the two wasn't promoted to DC would take the DC position under Narduzzi, which makes sense from a career advancement standpoint. Dantonio basically said "you don't have to do the rebuilding thing and can get that title here" (and it will be a rebuilding phase at Pitt, I hope their fans are patient).

But because it was Narduzzi's system and he was the one that called the plays and implemented it from a higher level standpoint, I think he's the bigger loss. Again, Dantonio and the staff know the system well too now, which is why I don't think it's a huge loss in the long run, but I do think it's more of a loss than Herman.

bacon1431

January 2nd, 2015 at 10:46 AM ^

MSU is replacing Narduzzi with a guy that has been on MSU's staff the entire time, so I expect only a small dropoff initially as that coach adjusts to increased responsibility.



Depends on who OSU gets as OC. Meyer replaced Mullen with Addazio. If he does something similar there could be a big dropoff IMO.

Space Coyote

January 2nd, 2015 at 10:50 AM ^

But the major drop off there was at the QB position. Going from Tebow to pretty much everyone was a drop off, but going from Tebow to Brantley was a free fall. And Addazio is an OL guy, not a QB coach. That's where I think the huge drop off game from.

FWIW, post-Florida, Addazio and Mullen have very similar offensive results. I don't think the loss for Florida under Meyer was so much the switch in OC as it was the severe dropoff in QB play. It's that part that Meyer will need to replace in Herman.

MIMark

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:31 AM ^

Adazzio was the OC in 2009. That team still had Tebow and I think the only major loss from the previous offense was Harvin. Anybody who watched Florida football in 2009 would say there was a massive dropoff in production from 2008. The 2009 team relied upon the offense much more than in 2008.
If Meyer does not hire the right guy, you could see the same. I'd say the potential is there for Herman to be a massive loss.

Space Coyote

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:39 AM ^

Harvin - Was there biggest run threat outside Tebow, best WR, most dynamic player by far (and now Meyer recruits the "Harvin" role because of it).

Murphy - 4th round pick, was Florida's second best WR

Ingram - 5th round pick, was Florida's second best TE (Hernandez was better), but the better blocking TE.

In 2008, Florida was 3rd in FEI and 1st in S&P.

In 2009, Florida was 8th in FEI and 9th in S&P.

So, yeah, there was drop off. And the 2009 team still had a bunch of talent (Pouncey brothers, Tebow, Hernadez, Riley Cooper, Gilbert, and Hurt). There 2009 team was flat out gutted though, and the backups were not up to par. I think Mullen is a better OC, all I'm saying is that I don't think Addazio as an OC is the main reason Meyer dropped off, which kind of shows with the info above.

PeterKlima

January 2nd, 2015 at 10:57 AM ^

Your comment is intriguing.  It seems to imply that ANYTIME a coach is promoted from within, there shouldn't be that much drop off.  Those guys "know the system."  But, that clearly is not the case.  Knowledge of the system is only a piece of the puzzle and I would argue, at MSU other things are more important in light of the "lower" level of talent.

Are either of these guys the same type of motivator as Narduzzi?  His emotion seemed to be a big part of what drove the defense.

Are either of these guys qualified to make the tough calls in-game?

Can they make adjustments during the game?

Can they adapt Narduzzi's system when other teams attack it?

 

Also, with two people sharing one role, who calls the plays and does that affect how the other one feels about his stature?

 

Part of me also thinks that Narduzzi was fine leaving those guys there because it was his system and he can install it elsewhere.  He didn't NEED them as bad as Dantonio.

 

But, time will tell.

bacon1431

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:17 AM ^

I don't think it's a given promoting within succeeds. I mean, we promoted Ron English and the defense was only better because our talent got more experienced. The next year, it was pretty bad. Same with DeBord after Malone left. 

But part of the reason I think MSU's DC will be fine is that he has done a very good job at developing his position over the years. He was the DBs coach and MSU DBs have been pretty good. Struggled this year, but in years past they have been very good. They've basically plugged and played over the last 8 seasons. Narduzzi was a big part of the defense but obviously he can't be coaching every single player. MSU DBs knew the system, knew the fundamentals etc. Alot of that is on their position coach. Same with motivation and adjustments. After every drive, units go to their position coaches and talk. 

I think their new DC having been there so long, observing both Dantonio and Narduzzi, and having consistency in performance from his position group over most of his tenure leads me to believe there won't be a big dropoff. Obviously some unknowns in some of the things you pointed out. So we will see. 

readyourguard

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:20 AM ^

I asked myself the same thing as I watched Narduzzi during the game.  He is the guy that made the defensive calls.  He obviously has that "it" factor when it comes to calling a defensive game.  I don't know if Barnett and/or Tressel possess the same quality.  They might, who knows?  But as someone already pointed out, offense is what won 11 games this year at MSU.  Unfortunately, they bring back their entire staff AND Cook.

turtleboy

January 2nd, 2015 at 10:49 AM ^

That's actually a great question. I'd say Narduzzi because States football program isn't as committed, historically, to excellence as OSU is, so isn't as likely to replace Narduzzi with a top money "home run" hire. OSU is very likely to replace Herman with a like-for-like hire. They're playing on the biggest stage with the biggest money, so will likely be able to hire the biggest coordinating talent.

MgoRayO3313

January 2nd, 2015 at 10:59 AM ^

Narduzzi.

Urban is a good recruiter and has established his system with other OCs. Herman is arguably his best yet but I feel confident urban could nearly mirror the output with someone else.

Narduzzi truly is a defensive mastermind. Ever changing, always aggressive D. Although I also feel Dantanio could match the defensive output they had (particularly this seasons) I do not feel like they will get the look from recruits. I know state is known for 'developing' all this talent but you won't get the Malik McDowell's of the world now with no Narduzzi. You lose him from the recruiting standpoint. Plus with Ohio having national success and Michigan getting a high profile big name coach, sparty may be the forgotten about head to what may become the triple headed monster that is the B1G East Division.




Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad

sj

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:00 AM ^

I know that they both basically promoting from within, but in the long-rum Ohio State will replace top coordinators with top coordinators. MSU doesn't have the money to keep up.

Shark4

January 2nd, 2015 at 12:52 PM ^

"The System" won't change at Ohio State. It's Urban's system and Herman came in and learned that system, terminology and all. Urban hired Herman because he wanted someone who could add the up-tempo package which Urban said Herman was an expert at. Herman's biggest loss will not be as OC. It will be as "QB Whisperer." I'm guessing Urban will elevate Warinner (OL) to OC and hire a QB coach who will call the plays. What Herman did w/OSU's QBs was nothing short of amazing. That will be VERY hard to replace.

Warinner's handling of the OL may have been an even more impressive job. He's only making $365k. Urban will want to make sure he keeps him so elevating him to OC will get him into the $600k range and keep him in Columbus.

Bb011

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:09 AM ^

Definitely narduzzi. Herman hasnt been with urban as long so urban doesnt depend on him as much as narduzzi. Narduzzi really does have pretty much full control of the msu defense. I think msu will be fine, but it definitely will be a bigger loss

Wolverine15

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:11 AM ^

Narduzzi. Meyer's UF teams really only took a step back post-Tebow when they didn't have a credible quarterback. Well, they currently have three All-American types on the roster, so I don't see them taking a step back at all. I do think Houston will be more successful than Pitt, but Ohio State will survive the loss of a coordinator better than MSU.




Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad

DonAZ

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:44 AM ^

This.  Herman came to OSU in 2012 when Urban Meyer came in.

Go look at 2011 Braxton Miller and then 2012-2013 Braxton Miller.  The improvement was not just age ...  Miller learned to rely less on his legs and more on his reads and his arm. 

OSU loses Braxton Miller to start 2014.  Everyone predicts doom.  In steps J.T. Barrett.  Dude rips off a hell of a year.  Then he's injured.  Everyone predicts doom.  In steps Cardale Jones.  Dude just beat Alabama.

Meyer is a hell of a coach, but I'm not convinced he's a QB developer.  Maybe, but not convinced.

So Tom Herman. 

Glennsta

January 2nd, 2015 at 1:55 PM ^

Herman took a 3rd-string QB wih not that many reps during the year and puts up a mess of points on and beats Alabama.

Narduzzi's defense wasn't exactly stout yesterday. Their offense carried them much of the year,

Bryan

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:14 AM ^

That said, his defense dropped considerably this year. Before the game yesterday, they were ranked # 43 in Football Outsider's FEI defensive ranking. Michigan, by comparison, was # 44.

MSU had a group of special players in the past few seasons. Time will tell if they can replicate that success. 

PeterKlima

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:19 AM ^

As you can tell from my post, MSU's defense were elite with Max Bullough.  Without him, just very good.

 

MSU had gained a lot of confidence from the past 5 seasons.  A lot of that was built on the backs of the Bullough Defenses.  They feel good overall now, but if they take a further step back there, it could be rouger on all.

PeterKlima

January 2nd, 2015 at 12:13 PM ^

All reports were that Bullough was like a defensive coordinator out there on the field.  He made sure guys were in position.  He had the ability to call blitzes and to make adjustments based on the offense.  He wasn't an elite player from a physical standpoint, but he ran the defense out there on the field.

Also, before he started and after he started, the defenses were not elite.  Lots of players moved around in those 3 seasons too.

 

I feel pretty confident that Bullough's "quarterbacking" of the defense played a very big role in the best period in the histroy of MSU's defense.

Roy G. Biv

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:16 AM ^

I don't think either is a devastating loss.  Urbz basically runs the OSU offense, and The Scowl does the same with MSU D.  Forced to pick, I'd say Narduzzi given the horses OSU brings in.

PeterKlima

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:22 AM ^

Where do you get the idea that Dantonio runs the MSU defense?  Everything I have read indicates that it was all Narduzzi's idea that he foisted upon Dantonio.  Every indication is that Narduzzi calls the plays for his own system.

 

While Herman may call the plays in C-Bus, he definitely had to go along with Meyer's established offensive scheme.

LSAClassOf2000

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:17 AM ^

I would have to think it is Narduzzi and only because of how intertwined he is with the success of Mark Dantonio not just at MSU, but from before that at Cincinnati. I feel like Ohio State could probably go out and find someone who could do many of the things that Tom Herman did for them - similar system, good with QB development, etc... and still be fine. I foresee the more dramatic difference in appearance and play coming in East Lansing - they can promote from within, but it was Narduzzi's system and eventual divergence from it is a likelihood. 

Monkey House

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:20 AM ^

I don't think Herman will be a "big" loss. Ohio runs a system offense, much like Oregon. that's why I think Oregon offense rarely struggles even after departures.

YaterSalad

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:53 AM ^

Honest question - Aren't all offenses technically system offenses? You recruit guys for a certain responsibility and then continue to plug them in. Oregon and Ohio State just look different but Bama, Auburn, USC, etc. Those places are the same philosophy just in a traditional package of plays - i.e. Under center, pro set, power I.

alum96

January 2nd, 2015 at 9:03 PM ^

Agreed.  Oregon with Chip Kelly, Helfrich as OC, or Helfrich as HC, Frost as OC run a system and it is fine. No massive dropoff.  Same with Urban.

And UF didnt fall off when Adazzio was hired.  It was actually 2nd year of Adazzio that it fell off because some special QB left.  Urbz will be fine.

Bigger question is - why have we never hired a coordinator that other teams fans wrote blog posts about how a major loss it will be for us when he leaves?

chango

January 2nd, 2015 at 11:23 AM ^

I would think it's a bigger loss for state.

Logical? Recruits want to play for Nards defense and for Meyers fast paced style of offense.

Perhaps Dantonio loses out with that train of thought.