Although I like discussion about this, we discussed about this yesterday.
Big Ten Officially Adds Johns Hopkins, B1G Lacrosse Conference Starts in 2015
That's the press release from the conference announcing it, dated today.
Edit: Story about the press release, but still.
My main reason for creating a new topic was this confirms the start date of a B1G lacrosse conference, as well as the status of women's lacrosse within the Big Ten.
It was official yesterday too, but like I said I'm down with more lax discussion.
Yesterday's post was Inside Lacross reporting it would happen, today is the B1G officially announcing it actually happening. I think that is a threadworthy difference.
I didn't mean to make such a big deal about it, which is why my post wasn't attacking, but it just seemed, based on the wording by the OP, that he hadn't seen it was posted already.
Except it wasn't posted already. Which is why people keep responding about why is it different than yesterday's thread.
I think we're kind of splitting hairs though, but it seems I'm in the minority. We had good discussion on this already, and I think updating the thread we already had would have been better than starting a new one (which ends the last one).
Analogy time: what you are doing right now is the equivalent of going into the "Hello: Chase Winovich" post and complaining because there was already a "Buckle Up?" post. Official announcements are worth their own posts so people that have stopped following new posts on the old thread know it has gone from speculation to official.
I actually did see the thread yesterday and was following the discussion. I just wasn't sure what else to say, figuring the headline spoke for itself. I also hoped adding "officially" to the title would have made that clear, but apparently I didn't make it clear enough.
This isn't just about the money. Now our lacrosse teams can play each other in a league. I'm sure the lax guys are excited about this, and not because it makes money.
If we're talking soul moves, I would think that Howard is a likely choice for expansion.
Absolutely. And not to be too stereotype-y, but I don't see Howard being a lacrosse power anytime soon, despite fitting the geography. Nor do I see them adding D1 hockey.
a religious school.
I discounted that side as Catholics are holy on Saturday's and holy hell during the rest of the week. Or so I've been told...
It could make a difference.
And who says it has to be a Catholic school? I'm waiting for the addition of a Buddist school and a Hindi school to add all those tvs in China and India.
Wow, maybe we have been doing it all wrong. Maybe we should follow this example and offer Notre Dame affiliate membership in football. We don't care about their other sports anyway.
I think the difference here is that lacrosse is JHU's only D1 sport (or am I wrong about that?). So, technically, JHU will be in the B1G in all their D1 sports. This isn't like ND picking and choosing when it would be convenient for a sport to be in the conference.
Which makes me wonder - will JHU use this to springboard a few more programs to the D1 level? Obviously, we are not talking about BB or FB, but I'd be curious to see if they would test the waters with some other non-revenue sports. It's not like they don't have the endowment. I'm guessing that they are not interested in expanding their athletics, but it would be crazy to think that the discussion was not broached during their talks with the B1G. JHU has a history of strong swim teams, among other sports. Stranger things have happened.
I'm not sure the latest NCAA rule changes would selectively allow Division III Hopkins to promote other non-revenue sports to Division I .
(I also am unsure that joining the CIC is in any way part of the expansion discussions.)
It has been true for a couple of decades that a Division II or Division III school could have 1 men's sport and 1 women's sport "playing up" to the Division I level. Now, it has been forbidden entirely (except for the sports already playing at the Division I level).
The only way for Johns Hopkins to move any more sports up to Division I would be for the entire athletic department to move to Division I, which I am certain they have no interest in doing. Yes, stranger things have happened, but this won't.
Hopkins was granted a big waiver to be allowed to continue their lax programs as D1 when the NCAA changed rules about 15 years ago to demand that a school compete in one division only. There are a few hockey schools with the same waiver as well.
Already posted. Remove it before you get blasted
If a what are you drinking thread is valid for everyday of the week, then a thread officially announcing the entrance of an elite academic institution to the B1G is more than thread worthy.
All official from the Big Ten now so I don't see why this shouldn't be posted.
I'm definitely excited about this from a lacrosse perspective. Michigan will now play in the strongest conference nationally that will get an auto-bid, and the conference will only be slightly behind the ACC now. It also gets Michigan a lot more lacrosse exposure on the east coast in the Maryland recruiting hot-bed. Both of those things will help Michigan become a nationally competitive program relatively quickly.
Only question remaining to be discussed is what happens with JHU's TV deal with ESPN. Big Ten has been reluctant to show lacrosse games, however if they are looking to get into TV sets on the east cost, this is certainly one way to do it.
My question is what happens to the money Hopkins makes from their ESPN deal? Does it get split?
...that Hopkins home games will continue to be be ESPNU, and that all of their conference games will be broadcast on BTN. Frankly, for the BTN to get a chance to broadcast Hopkins so often is a boon for lax programming on the BTN. It will also give much more exposure to the other conference schools. Hopkins has the #1 TV watching fan base out there for lax (OK, that is nothing compared to any other B1G school for football or basketball, but this is about growing lax programming on BTN)
That doesn't answer the question of how the money gets split. Does Hopkins keep all of the ESPN money? That would be a very un-Big Ten way to work it.
What money? You are assuming that Hopkins makes money from their ESPN deal. I doubt it. Or if they do, I suspect it's negligible or maybe just some of the ad spots to sell if they can. Here's how the negotiation probably went.
ESPN: "We would like to televise all of your games on our networks, something that none of your competitors have."
Hopkins: "What's in it for us?"
ESPN: "We just told you."
Slightly behind the ACC? Are you out of your mind?
Syracuse, North Carolina, Virginia, Duke, Notre Dame...
Ohio State, Johns Hopkins, Maryland?
Sure thing, buddy.
Yeah, slightly is probably a stretch (for now) but give UM and OSU another half dozen years or so, and I disagree. You also left PSU off your comparison, who made the tourney this year (unlike UVa).
Big ten has last year's laxpower #3, 5, 12, & 14.
ACC has #2, 4, 10, 15 & 17
4 top 20's vs. 5 top 20's. 2 top 5's vs. 2 top 5's. 4 top 15's vs. 4 top 15's. I stand by my slightly, while acknowledging that laxpower isn't perfect so there is of course plenty of subjectivity with this type of analysis no matter how you measure it.
Now, I really don't want to argue for the ACC here (because clearly my bias goes the other way) but this is a little misleading.
#3 for us is Hopkins, who didn't make the tourney. #4 for them won the national title, and played #10 in the championship game, while our three participants won one game between the three of them. The ACC had four teams in the tourney - one of them won it, two of them were knocked out by other ACC teams and UNC lost by one to a very good Denver squad.
Additionally, all 5 of their teams were in the top-20 (even with Virginia having a very bad year for them) and our 5th and 6th teams were at 44 and 54, respectively.
Our top two are absolutely even with their top 2, but there is a little drop off for our next two and a huge drop off for our last two. Right now.
HOWEVA, in not too many years, the Big Ten will be right on par with the ACC. If the BTN handles this well and starts putting Big Ten lacrosse on TV all the time during the spring (what else do they have?) then the Big Ten will catch up in a hurry. If I'm a recruit from Pennsylvania, Maryland or NY and I can either go to Michigan, OSU or PSU and be on TV all time or go to UNC, UVa or Duke and not, that might make up for a lot of other things. Ditto for kids from CA coming out East for college - their parents will never get to see them play in person, but with the BTN, they'll get to watch all the time. Combine that with the way lacrosse is growing in Michigan and Ohio and I bet the Big Ten runs step for step wih the ACC in less than a decade.
good chart explaining what lacrosse leagues would have looked like had they had their current members for the last four years: http://www.collegecrosse.com/2013/6/3/4392036/conference-realignment-big-ten-b1g-johns-hopkins-lacrosse-conference-ratings. Basically, the B1G would have had a strong case for anywhere between 2-5 over the last four years, and probably will get stronger. Also, someone mentioned that the deal is basically that Hopkins doesn't get BTN money, but doesn't give up any ESPNU money here: http://www.collegecrosse.com/2013/6/3/4391766/conference-realignment-big-ten-b1g-lacrosse-johns-hopkins-michigan-ohio-state-penn-state-maryland No idea if that's true or not.
I like that table. It doesn't take potential into account, though, and the Big Ten has more of that than any other conference. We'll be number two.
This is cool to see. I wish B1G hockey would at least consider a similar approach with Tech, NMU, Lake State, etc. I'm gonna miss the option to watch UM hockey in Marquette.
Yeah, I know, kind of OT...
The amount of money it takes to start a hockey program is insanely high. The reason B1G hockey exists at this point is PSU got a very large donation from Terry Pegula, which allowed them to construct the rink needed at start the program. Don't expect to see any expansion from hockey for a while, and if it happens, Illinois is the most likely candidate.
No self-respecting hockey league would have ever thought that could work.
Agreed. Teams will add lacrosse waaaay before they add hockey.
NW? i don't think me can afford a hockey team. They have some of the worst athletic facilities in the country. Can't see them adding any sports before the overhaul the ones they have
Now I can see NW adding men's lacrosse. Lacrosse doesnt cost nearly as much as hockey plus They already have a women's team and I think they r like the best all time
Thank god I was getting worried
Imo this is, pound for pound, WAY more valuable to UM and the B1G than the Maryland addition.
Low cost, high return in Lax and maybe academics (I say maybe because I still don't fully "get" how beyond bragging rights academics impact these sorts of things).
This basically shifts the balance of power in mens Lax towards a 2 conference sport (B1G and ACC, with scattered ivies and schools like Towson, Loyola, Denver, etc thrown in). As a former UM laxer who hailed from the East Coast, I can speak firsthand to how big Hopkins is in the history of the sport. Having them and Maryland (which immediately becomes THE rivalry in B1G) lax will be great for everyone.
JHU-MD in lax = M - OSU in football. Similar festivities around 100th games, etc.
Damn u guys realize with hockey and lacrosse the BIG will be by far the conference fielding the most sports
Will they? I believe the Pac12 fields men's and women's water polo and volleyball, and maybe even women's beach volleyball (though I'm not sure about that).
That's not true the PAC-12 has 22 sports the big ten has 25 and that doesn't include ice hockey and men and women lacrosse. As I said the big ten will have by far the most sponsored sports by any conference
Interesting. Where did you find those numbers? I'm interested in which sports we have that they don't.
Pretty cool that the B1G is the largest conference with these moves. Not thinking about the piles of cash that our conference sits on, it at the very least shows our support for the largest student athelete group of any conference.
Same link as in OP:
Wikipedia just look up big ten and PAC 12 and it lists the sports they sponsor
The big ten has become the destroyer of conferences first the ccha now the ecac
Yesterday when the reports were coming out I was fairly incensed at the thought of an associate or affiliate membership, but it now seems that the benefits outweigh any drawbacks to the plan. Welcome JH!
If they don't join the conference academically as well as athletically, then all my smug assurances that schools like Cincy or Louisville are never going to be considered for conference membership might not be worth the pixels they were written with.
You and your academics, I swear.
so I can't help it. It's in my genes.
(My grandfather attended UM from 1901 through 1904 as an undergrad, and then got his masters from UM in 1910. There's a photo in his scrapbook I have that was taken from the sidelines during the 1904 UM-Chicago game.)
I got you beat: my grandfather graduated from the dental school in aught-2
Interesting move. There was much speculation that Johns Hopkins wouldn't join. How does this impact Virginia and Duke? I know the Grant of Rights is in place, but litigation could POTENTIALLY change that (as an attorney, potential is always a keyword, I know), but doesn't this make the Big Ten more attractive for those schools now?
At least for now, it's very unlikley a lacrosse move has any impact on conference expansion/realingment. First of all, the existence of a Big Ten lacrosse league probably does little to entice the lax decision makers at those schools, since one would exist anyway if they joined, but most importantly - the lax decision makers probably get almost no say in this stuff anyway.
I've got little doubt that if anyone came up to Dave Pietramala and said, "you're joining a conference, pick one, but you have to join," the answer would've been ACC in a heartbeat. I don't think the B1G gives a rip about having a lacrosse league except that it makes for a convenient excuse to add a research powerhouse to the CIC.
Not so sure of that Wahoo - I think Petro has had admiration for the B1G for a long time. When he talks about being part of a conference that strives for excellence I think he sees that in the overall way the B1G does athletics - not just lax- more than the way the ACC does it. I remember well the comments he made about being here in Ann Arbor for fall ball back in 2008. He spoke about how excited he was about exposing the Jays to big time college athletics and the atmosphere that goes with it (they went to the M-OSU game that weekend.)
It was fall 2007. Purdue game.
But I agree with your premise. Petro is all about big time football. I think, aside from the very important Maryland factor, his first choice would be the Big Ten.
Announcement - Ron Daniels (JHU president), then Jim Delaney (interesting thoughts on mid-atlantic footprint - basically said, we are in this neighborhood already), then Dave Pietramala (JHU coach). Delaney is at about 4:15 in. Daniels has some interesting things to say about academics and the B1G.
A Neanderthal with this thinking but the Big Ten doesn't need any affiliations with schools that don't play football. Grumble, grumble.
Give it a decade and you'll see that having a strong lacrosse conference is a big deal. We would have had one in a decade without this move, but this gets the league started sooner, as well as adding a huge name that gets people talking Big Ten lacrosse without waiting for the Big Ten schools to get good (which they will).