Michigan and tOSU to play on last Saturday)...
Div 1 UM MSU Neb Iowa Minn NW
Div 2 tOSU Penn State Wisc Purdue Illinois Indiana
Sorry for the crappy formatting
if someone had told me that we wouldn't have to beat OSU or PSU OR Wisconsin on the road to the B10 championship game, I'd have taken it. I guess tie-breakers, etc. could impinge on that scenario, but. . .
Am I missing something? I think that their division looks as hard, if not harder. Iowa is not this good. Neb will be solid, but a top 3 of OSU, Wiscy, PSU is not peanuts. Our third best team is Iowa, theirs is Wisconsin. MSU and Purdue will become a push once Sparty is smacked down like always. Then you're left with 2 scrubs for each side.
The only thing that sucks is our protected game is against the vest. But that being said, would you prefer that game not being protected?
Just think about normal years in the Big Ten: we contend with our full system and good depth (9-11 wins). Nebraska will contend under Pelini, even without an offense (8-10 wins). Iowa will be that wild card thats good for 6-8 wins with an upset that no one saw coming. MSU claims to have momentum for the following season and brutally underachieve (4-7 wins). Minny and NW seem to have a season once or twice a decade with 7 wins, but are usually good for five.
In the other division, OSU always contends with 9-11 wins. Penn State is sporadic but have shown they are good for 8-11 wins any given year, Wisconsin has done nothing but succeed under Brett B (except for the anomaly in '08.) they're good for 9 or 10 wins. This division is also guarenteed to hit a cycle of at least one of three between Purdue, Illinois or Indiana to have a 7 or 8 win year, well, excluding Indiana. They never win anything but play teams tough yearly.
20-year historical data shows:
Div. 1 6.16
Pretty close to competitive balance.
hehe. But to be fair, it's probably skewed a little because we've struggled, and OSU has been totally on top. You'd have to account for us playing OSU every year too.
But I think you'll still find that they probably come out pretty close. It's not like the Big Ten doesn't own a calculator.
That's an average ranking over the 20 or 10 years, so lower is better.
ala the ACC. Over time, I think it's a fool's errand. How's it working out for the ACC?
I would much prefer the SEC model that keeps key rivals together in the same division. This would be a natural fit for the B10, keeping the big rivalry pairs - Mich/OSU, OSU/PSU, Mich/MSU, Wisc/Iowa, Pur/Ind, Ill/NW, (Neb/Wisc, Neb/Iowa) - in the same division as each other.
BUT . . . if they are going to roll the dice on "competitive balance", they did a good job based on history since PSU joined. I think they are doing the wrong thing, but they are doing it the right way.
The most important thing is that they've backed off the cliff of moving the Mich/OSU game from the last game of the season. Yes, some years we will play each other back to back, but the 2nd game in the B10 championship in a netural site NFL dome at night will not just be a repeat experience of the 1st game.
These look like what I thought they would, but I thought we'd get stuck with Wisconsin in our division. Getting Iowa instead is a much better deal for us.
OSU, PSU, and Wisc in the same division is a killer.
...what his source is? Though it seems as predicted. Seems pretty balanced.
And at least we might have gotten a compromise on the LAST GAME thing. I'd like to think that all our screaming and emailing changed their mind (because I truly believe they weren't going with that model at first).
Though if it's true, it will have been "saved" before I even got my T-Shirt from the MGoStore.
Eh, a little indelible sharpie action and you can wear it proudly having taken part in the salvation
universal condemnation from the MSM.
This was the exact same dynamic that kept the NCAA from expanding the Big Dance to 96 teams.
I do not like. The bottom teams of Div 1 are way tougher than the bottom of Div 2 teams and we have to play the top team of Div 2 every year. Lame.
if true, thats not bad at all. i like playing MSU and minny every year, and as long as UM OSU play the last week, i can deal with them not being in the same division (although i still want them in the same division).
The Game is still going to be at the end of the season? What the hell do I do with all these pitchforks now?
I don't know... the problem is still there. What makes the date important isn't that "it's the last game". It's that it's the last game AND therefore, your season has been established, this is the one last obstacle between you and your goal (e.g. Rose Bowl, Nat'l Title game.)
Separate divisions removes this urgency to some extent.
I like the divisions here. We're still playing Ohio State in the last game of the regular season. I like that. And of course Division 1 is ALOT better than Division 2.
And of course Division 1 is ALOT better than Division 2.
Based on what? I'm not buying that argument:
Obviously right now Nebraska is > PSU, but you could also argue that Wisky is > Iowa. And Minnesota, Illinois, Northwestern, and Purdue are typically meh teams who occasionally put together competitive squads.
I just don't think these divisions are incredibly uneven, like a lot of people are saying.
Edit: Crap, trickydick said the same thing as me. I didn't read down far enough to see his. But I second his opinion.
It is definitely Minn > Indy. Not even close. They've made a bowl every year since 2002 except for one time, while IU has gone to only one (an L in the Insight Bowl in 2007) in the last ~20 years.
You could also easily argue, that at least for the past 2 years and for the next 3 years or so (i.e., until the Zooker departs) that NU is easily better than the Illini, though over time (last 20 years), certainly they are about equal.
So that makes the divisions, at least for the next ~ 3 years, difficult for U of M. Minn > Indy and NW > Illini, and we play the best team in the other division (which, of course, we should play OSU - but it does put us at a disadvantage to say, Nebraska, who won't play OSU certain years).
I think the point with the lower-tier teams like Indy, Illinois, NW, and Minnesota is that they fluctuate a lot in terms of their success. So Minnesota may be better than Indiana right now, or NW may be better than Illinois right now, but that could be completely the opposite by next year. So I think those four teams are a wash; it doesn't matter which division they go to.
So that leaves you with us, OSU, Neb, PSU, Iowa, Wisky, MSU, and PU. I definitely think MSU and PU are washes: typically mediocre with an occasionally good team. And Wisky and Iowa are both good teams right now; though they tend to fluctuate a bit, too.
Which then leaves you with us, OSU, Neb, and PSU. Right now, I'd say the most fair comparison would be OSU and Neb, and us and PSU; and with that, OSU > Neb, and I'd say we're even with PSU right now. I say the divisions are fair.
Are you seriously arguing about the bottom half of the division? If we don't beat all of those teams, then it probably doesn't matter what the divisions look like because we won't be going to the BTCG anyway.
I agree that:
D-I > FCS
Sorry, you are about as wrong as wrong can be in regards to Iowa/Wisconsin.
86 matchups. 43-42-1 record in favor of Iowa. I don't think you can find a closer record in the BigTen.
I said they were even. I think that stat backs me up. Along with Iowa's 8-7 record since '93.
I said that you could argue that Wisky is better than Iowa, based on this year's team. I know I didn't clearly qualify that statement in my post, but that's what I was referring to.
No doubt we would have the toughest schedule of any Big Ten team every year, especially the years we play Penn State and/or Wisconsin.
No kidding, those years are going to be some extremely tough schedules. Especially so, if that Michigan - Alabama game goes through and we have Wisconsin and Penn State on our schedule. I know by that point our team will be more than good enough to make it through those schedules undefeated.
Wouldn't Minnesota have the toughest since they would have to play us?
Won't have to play OSU every year.
Ohio State has it worse.
Would you rather play PSU and Wisc every year instead of Neb and Iowa?
I'm kinda of torn, with a lean toward wanting to trade places with OSU.
When we were good, we dominated PSU, Wisc, Iowa all about the same. Nebraska is the big unknown here.
You couldn't have put this in the thread that is 3 spots down on the sidebar where this exact conversation is happening?
The next thread saying the exact same thing...
I copy and pasted this in both threads.
... but then I realized it's "Breaking News" and I wanted to be first, and I beat KyleMac by 2 minutes.
And this is definitely NOT OT...
Seems fair to me:
Michigan = OSU
Nebraska = PSU
Iowa = Wisconsin
MSU = Purdue
Minnesota = Illinois
NW = Indiana
Historically speaking (last 20 years or so), Minn, MSU, Purdue, Illinois, Indiana, and NW have taken turns being bad.
its true that they have taken turns being bad. but i think MSU, minny, and NW have had more good years than the other three. im not complaining. i'm actually just happy that UM OSU will remain the last game
Though I would probably move NW and Minn. Though they had a few good years there, Minnesota has been pretty rancid for like 50 years. Much like Indiana (which had a few good years back in the late 80s-early 90s). And Northwestern has been consistently good enough lately to move them up to up and down Illinois level.
Jesus. Last week it was "all that matters is that we play tOSU the last week of the year". Now people want to complain because our division is "too tough". Our division may be tougher today but it may not be in 5 years. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best.
If this is really and truly it - including the Game on the last Saturday of the year - then I'm positively ecstatic. I'd MUCH rather have MSU-Neb-Iowa than PSU-Wisc-Purdue. I'll take that all day. I don't care about the bottom group, they is what they is. The only problem is that our cross-division rival is way, way harder, but this is Michigan, we should get a tougher schedule.
Edit: plus we get the Brown Jug game back to every-year status. Don't know how that could be a bad thing.
And--in truth--possibly one additional advantage: we don't have to BEAT OSU to get into the title game.
Exactly the same except for IU-NW, which from our perspective are basically interchangeable. I suppose in hindsight, having IU in Purdue's division makes more sense.
We were going to have to play MSU anyway. And up until the last two years, where it has been equalized, Purdue has given us just as many headaches. Nebraska may be on a bit more of an upswing, where as PSU may be headed for a minor downswing, but over the last 20 some years Wisconsin has been consistently good, and Iowa has been a lot more up and down. And historically, they were both pretty awful before that, so not much more tradition on Iowa's side. A decade, maybe.
And Minnesota is a good thing. And frankly, I think Northwestern, the trip to Chicago (rather than all the way to Bloomington or Champaign), and "Academic rivalry" is a funner fit, if a bit tougher. Though the Illni faithful will be crushed when they find out we're not their rivalry crossover game.
Edit: And I think Wisconsin give OSU fits, so I'm glad they have to play them every year.
I'll take it. If we're in a different division from Ohio State, there's simply no getting around the fact that we'll have a tough schedule. So will OSU. But you know what? Screw it. We're Michigan. We should play a tough schedule. That's why we want OSU every year, and at the end of the year, isn't it?
ohio state stays at the end of season! Really all we could ask for.
I lived in Lansing for two years and Tim Staudt is a pretty reliable journalist. He doesn't usually report something like that (or anything for that matter) if there is any doubt. In other words, he's no professional hotty or anything.
Not geography. If it's competitive balance you'd need to swap NW or Minn for Illinois or Indiana. Anyway, The Game on the last week of the season should calm a lot of people down. Ya it's not for the championship/Rose Bowl, but we've always known that. The entire point of expansion was to allow for a formal championship game.
But we've got a lot of M's and N's, and they've got a lot of I's and P's. If we could swap Iowa for Wisconsin or OSU it'd be even better, alphabetically.
That it was kinda north-south.
(Please ignore that Badger behind the curtain).
No Minny, Iowa, or Nebraska
as a consolation.
I think our division (assuming all this is true***) is overall harder. However, Iove that game remains the last week and that we will be playing for the brown jug every year. I think the other division is more top heavy with OSU, PSU, and Wisconsin being consistently good programs. In ours, Iowa is usually up and down, NW is a pain in the ass but never has been good for a long stretch of time, and minnesota is kind of a debacle which makes our division more balanced, and decent for U-M in the long run. Overall I think its a decent split. No alignment that was possible would be easy for anyone in the Big Ten realistically. Its simple in the end though...if Michigan (or anyone for that matter) is truly the best team in the conference/nation, they will win the games on their schedule regardless of who they are playing (see 1997: the toughest schedule in the nation and beat them all).
being in the other division. With the way our team is shaping out for the foreseeable future (hopefully) that is the one team that I really don't want to play every year in division. Our defense really isn't made to stop the huge power backs, IMO, so this works out. I'm definitely in favor of this, Ohio State as the last game in the other division perfect too. I really doubt we'd be playing back to back too often, it will happen certainly, but rarely. Once JoePa is replaced that PSU team will be interesting too, I think we'll see them in the Championship game often. Division 1 is definitely the better division as wel. In short, yay and yes please.
I hate this set up. Our division is slightly better then 2 and we play the best team from the other division every year. I want OSU in our division. Sure it's the last game of the season buy it's almost meaningless (never completly meaningless but deputed). If we do play them in the CC the game won't be as hyped as it should be because one already beat the other( unless it was very close like 06). This doesn't happen to often.
I would rather have OSU, Penn State (we usually handle them well even when they are good) MSU Indiana and NW or Illinois.
The game would be worth the chance yo play for the CC. I don't think anyone would argue that the Texas OU game is worthless because thy play in yh middle of the season.
I'm not happy with this at all but it is what it is and hopfully we can become dominate to OSU sooner rather then later.
How do you know OSU will be the best team in the other division year in and year out. Yes NW is pretty good right now however by next year they could suck again, we have owned MSU since they started playing football, Minn is our bitch, and I would much rather face Iowa every year than Wisc or Penn st.
is the FUTURE play of ALL these teams. ALL of the B10 teams have had their moments the last decade, w. the exception--perhaps--of Minnesota and Indiana. And they have been placed in different divisions. I think we got a fair shake.
I don't understand the "omg our division is harder, wtf." What a cop-out load of bullshit.
I'd much rather be able to say "Yeah, we stomped our division, and the best team from the other division in a tough Big Ten as well." Did you all forget how much ragging the Big Ten has gotten in the last, I don't know, decade?
There's a difference between, "[insert any Big Ten team here] got to the BCS championship game, but look at the Big Ten conference they had to get through - it's weak!" and "Look at what a buzzsaw their Big Ten schedule is... make no mistake, this is a damn good team to have made it this far."
edit: oh, that and the fact that the "omg our division is harder wtf" argument is predicated on our division actually being tougher, which is definitely up for considerable debate.
Way, so...Delaney. Is he or is he not still an idiot anti-christ?
Is Brandon still his weak-willed bitch?
Because from all their rumblings (and the OSU AD too), they were pretty much ready to move the M-OSU game too (with all that "fans, tv, teams won't like playing twice in a row"). So if we hadn't screamed, we might not even have had that. It's not that this is better than same division. Just a fair compromise. We weren't even getting that if they hadn't gotten bombarded.
I'm not giving anyone credit till it's officially announced. But if it IS like this, I'm giving credit to fanbases that stood up and were heard. Not those guys.
It's the soft landing! A few weeks ago everyone was upset that they might not be in the same division, meaning the The Game wasn't an elimination game and they might have a rematch the next week. Now, everyone is apparently forgetting that because The Game isn't moving to October.
I'm amazed by this!
As I see it...
If we're in different divisions most of the practical reasons for keeping the game at the end of the season are meaningless... The game itself loses much of its meaning.
I thought the whole point was keeping us in the same division AND at the end of the season?
Way, so...Delaney. Is he or is he not still an idiot anti-christ?
Is Brandon still his weak-willed bitch?
.....an even bigger, growing dislike for the Cornhuskers. Probably won't be long before they're our #2 rival. ND, MSU, PSU, take one step back.
so when they release their crack-influenced divisions we would let it go since we'll just be relieved to have the game last. very crafty jim
Neb will be tougher than PSU. Iowa and Wis are a push. NW is tougher than ILL, MSU is tougher than PU, and Minn is tougher than Indiana. Plus we have a guaranteed cross divisional game aginst the toughest team in the conference. Net effect: BAD for M. YAY!
Great job, Dave. NOT.
Stop being a pussy. Look to win Big Ten championships(the goal for any Michigan team), we have to be better than all these teams anyway. So what's the difference if the road is slightly harder to get there? And if we want to compete for national championships, a tougher schedule prepares the team better.
So, how exactly do we prove we're the leaders and best if we play a "weak" schedule?
forget this, I'm withdrawing until Saturday or my head will asplode.
Probably PSU-Nebraska, Wiscy-Minnesota, Illinois-Northwestern
Then? MSU-IU, Purdue-Iowa?
My guess (20-year w/l rank):
DIV1 (37) - DIV2 (41)
UM (3) - OSU (1)
NEB (2) - PSU (4)
IOWA (6) - WISC (5)
MSU (7) - PUR (8)
NW (9) - ILL (11)
MINN (10) - IND (12)
although I might switch IOWA and MINN despite rank disparity - since MINN and WISC have a longstanding rivalry
Microcosm of the Big Ten's concerns: a competitive game that lights up the TV sets, or the tradition that makes college football able to light up the tv sets? Especially with Alvarez clamoring for Nebraska, I'm downright surprised to see them split off completely
Watch and see Alvarez get his way, and get Nebraska, for abandoning Iowa and Minnesota. The crossovers will be rivalry, not competitive balance. That's how they split the divisions. Then their 3rd point, geography, they'll claim North-South (probably the names), ignoring Wisconsin in the wrong division for that.
Also look for MSU's "Rival" PSU for another crossover game. I still think they should have follwed the ESS EEE SEE's model and kept rivals in the same divisions but I don't think they care what I think....
If PSU-MSU and UW-NU happen as protected rivalries, it's going to be fun to read the PSU blogs, who are going to go crazy about how the league bends over backward for OSU - Michigan and about how they're being disrespected.
We are Michigan.
Act like you've been there before. I say bring it on.
The day Michigan is scared of MSU and NU, we might as well disband the team and use the Big House for competitive dancing.
I love your post. Like when Brandon said he wants us to be a program that travels and takes on all comers. That is what Michigan football is.
Nebraska, Ohio State every year. The big state in Chicago every other year. Bring it. Let's get a second tough non conference game too.
I am all kinds of excited about Alabama. I say we try and schedule an SEC opponent every year !
Does anyone know how much consideration was given other sports in determining the divisional parings?