I think it already is the best class ever. Any other commits are going to be icing on the cake.
landing spot. will be interesting to see how he does.
I think it already is the best class ever. Any other commits are going to be icing on the cake.
It's a really good class, and thats AFTER missing on Levenberry and Isaac (2 guys who we looked really good for a month ago).
That said, the class is really solid with a lot of high ranking linemen, but as of right now, its a little light on talent at the skill positions. Adding names like Treadwell and Green would really help.
Lets wait until signing day to proclaim the best class ever. Alot can happen between now and then. I am not saying this will happen to us, but classes can break up quite easily when controversy strikes a school.
If we're going to wait for an informed opinion, mind as well wait until 2017 or 2018 when we've actually gotten a chance to see how these players panned out.
Lots of depth and talent that will certainly lead to good things in the future, but game changing talent is needed to put Michigan over the top. I know a lot of people think WR is the key position for this class, but I'm not so sure. Maybe it's because I'm a bit old school, but the thought of having Green with the ball in his hands 20-25 times a game gets me amped—no slight to LT. So a stud RB a must, WR a plus.
On the defensive side of the ball I think we're already in more than solid shape. The front seven is going to be spectacular in a few years and that will make the DBs that much more effective. Still, I wouldn't turn a prospect like Fuller or McQuay away, but I think Michigan already has the makings of a NC caliber defense (especially given the coaching staff). DBs, another nose (for depth).
IIRC, the only site that rates Green higher than Isaac is Rivals. Saying that Green is more talented is ignoring the majority of evidence...
On the contrary, I have a subscription to Rivals and I often say that Rivals is the best when it comes to rating players.
However, when all three major sites disagree with Rivals, then it's not exactly a foregone conclusion that Green is better than Isaac...which is why stating that as a fact seems a little biased.
Somebody pisses in my Wheaties every morning, but I fail to see how my previous post contains any acrimony whatsoever. I'm used to the taste of piss by now.
Dude, maybe it's time you change what cereal you eat. That, or protect your Wheaties
It builds character.
I do like Isaac more than Green. That's really irrelevant here, though. The point is that it appears most professionals disagree with you, while one professional (Mike Farrell, basically) agrees. You can have your opinion, but it's not a fact.
I'm done arguing with you, though. I've said my piece.
This would be really bad data for it. The fact is 3 of the 4 major services agree with Magnus. Now the best one may agree with you. You can still like Green the best. But to state it as unqualified fact when the majority disagree with you makes you wrong in the statement, if not the assessment. Magnus will say that he likes a guy better than the majority of sites do at times too. But he won't say it's the general consensus.
And please, before I get the "all the big point guys stick together" silliness, Magnus and I disagree on things all the time...I'm just not going to accuss him of things he didn't say.
Thanks for the defense, M-Wolverine. We 20,000+ point guys have to stick together. Much love.
you are full of too much rage to be civil and sensible.
Ignoring the majority of opinion.
According to Mike Farrel it is...so there's that
Don't know if it is the best ever. Its great on paper. I haven't really sat down and thought about it.
And not to totally jack your thread but, remember shortly after McGary committed, there was a thread wondering if the 2012 football/basketball/hockey recuiting classes were the best combo in the history (or maybe it was last 20 years or something). Well (not knowing what hockey is doing) cant we already say that football is better this year and basketball is probably equal (depending a little on player ranking movement in the next year)? Pretty crazy that this happened in back to back years. Let's just make it the status quo from here on out.
I think 2013 basketball is a tad bit weaker than 2012, but still a great point. I think you could certainly make a case that they're very comparable and very close, but I really think GR3 is easily the best player (as of now) between both the 2012 and 2013 classes. Plus with McGary and Stauskas, along with two late signees, it's a pretty full class.
2013 is great, but not sure if Walton is better than McGary or GR3. I do think if Austin Hatch gets healthy and can compete at his old level you could argue 2013 is deeper and more complete, but with the way things are laid out now (unfortunately because of his situation), I have to go 2012.
As for football, no doubt 2013 is going to be better. This class should be Michigan's best recruiting class ever. Going to be a great couple years for both football and basketball with these types of classes
I agree with you re: basketball, but its close. Using ESPN's rankings the 2012 players were higher ranked (18, 27, 76, unranked, unranked) than 2013 is (39, 60, 64, unranked). I do think the 2013 players could move up slightly given the rave reviews that keep coming, but thats just speculation. And yes GRIII is the best player in either class, and not sure its really that close.
I think the most amazing thing is that we could have this conversation- a dispute over whether 2012 or 2013 was the best combined recruiting class in the last 20+ years. Not to mention 2014 could just add to the debate given the offers that are out there in football and the players who seem to favor us in basketball.
They're knocking on the door. And of course we're talking about best class on paper, and nothing more.
But they still need a big time WR (Treadwell) and then a couple more difference makers (Green and McQuay would be nice). I'd also like to add a luxury pick if possible (another QB, Berkley Edwards, maybe a true center or nost tackle).
Those first 3 pieces are going to be very hard to close with, and keeping this class in tact may be even harder...so they're moving in that direction (again, on paper), but I think to be the best ever, you have to fill all needs on top of getting blue chip talent.
Ala(14) and other SEC, Texas(15), USC (7), and even ND(13) are breathing down our necks with just barely double digit commits at this point. Very possible to have any pass us once 5* & 4* commit, as happened last year.
It would be awesome, but I don’t to have the BEST recruiting class in the country. Yet do want the best UofM has had and also the continual highly ranked class annually. I think we are achieving that. Plus, having continual strong classes will make each class that much better as they will be working against better players day in and day out. Also, having better players next to you allows you to step up your game more. That being said, if we get another top-flight WR and DB, I think we are assured Top-3 for this year.(Given no defections)
If we are looking for “Christmas in summer recruiting” with four slots, 1) Treadwell, 2) an elite DB/S Fuller, McQuay, or Luke, 3) RB like Green or Wilkens, and then 4) a beast SDE on the DL, Mathis.
I think by the recruiting websites, we'll have the best class in our history. In my opinion, you can't judge the class until 4 or 5 years from now when everyone graduates.
I think it may have been pre-rankings, but our 1998 class has to be up there (saying they would have all stayed)
We had Henson, Fargas, Terrell, Walker, Foote, Hobson, Joppru, June, Howard, and Epstein all in one class.
yes, that class ended up #1/#2 with UCLA... none of the big recruiting sites existed, but there were still rankings out there
Link to the 1998 rankings: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/college/recruiting/news/1998/02/10/recruiting_wrapup/
"Michigan signed the nation's No. 1-rated RB (Justin Fargas), the No. 2- (Marquise Walker) and No. 3- (David Terrell) rated wide receivers, the No. 3 rated QB (Drew Henson) and the No. 3 (Cato June) and No. 9-rated (Larry Foote) defensive backs. The Wolverines also signed the nation's No. 1 (Hayden Epstein) rated place kicker."
Looks like we also had top 3 classes in 1993, 1994 and 2001 (mucho talent in that 97 team): http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/statitudes/news/2002/02/05/recruiting_topten/
I remember 98 being the first year I followed recruiting...
I would argue this year's haul is better (if everyone stays) based on the fact that the talent is in the trenches and more consistent throughout the recruits. I am a believer that football games are won up front so maybe I am a little skewed but what I like about this class is that if you go to rivals and look up tackles we have five of the top 13 or 14 (or something like that). With talent like that, to go with the linebackers and Dlineman we have on defense I would guess that this class will be more successful than 98 simply because it is deeper and richer in talent...
In today's world, the 1998 class would be ranked much higher than our current class.
This is because the 1998 class had so many recruits who where in the top 5 at their position - especially skills positions - as well as so many recruits who were in the top 100.
The current recruiting services love these kind of top-heavy, skills positions classes, even if the rest of the class is not as compelling. That's not to say that that is the right way to do it, but that's how they do it.
In my opinion, the best classes are not the ones with the most stars, but the ones with the fewest weaknesses. In that sense, our current class is phenomenal. End to end, every recruit is solid.
I'd say on paper '98 is #1 till all these guys sign, and we see if the class fills out any more (or loses anyone).
But best class might the be #5 ranked one in 1995. (How did Lemming not have it ranked??) That one populated a National Championship team (that brought almost everyone back). Woodson, obviously. But Tai Streets, James Hall, Rob Renes, Aaron Shea, Josh Williams, and pretty good college players like Clarence Williams, Pat Kratus, Chris Ziemann, as well as guys we lost like Daydrion Taylor (who was excellent before injury) and David Bowens, who didn't like going to class, but was really good on the field.
Oh, and they had another guy we'd use later by the name of Tom Brady....
The 98 class was the last time I remember Michigan having a #1 class with Henson being the #1 player according to most in contention with Ronald Curry who went to UNC. We were coming off the title and had one of the top tailbacks in Fargas. Had he and Henson stayed, they very well could have won a national title or at least would have made a strong run. This is easily the best class since. While the 98 class had the top end playmakers, this class seems to have more depth but as of right now it's still only on paper. They have to perform on the field to be a truly great class.
I do think, however, that it is easy to make Shane Morris a little bit of an afterthought in the 2013 class since he's been in the fold for so long. He will probably finish the recruiting process as a consensus 5 star QB in what is a deeper class of QBs than we have seen in the past couple of years. He is rated higher than Andrew Luck was at the same point in the recruiting process. 2 or 3 years from now, he could be something special.
I doubt Henne and Fargas would have won a national championship in 2000 or 2001. Does Terrell stay too? How do you solve the Whitley problem? The '01 defense was slightly better after Marlin Jackson debuted, but it still got torched a few times by good offenses. Fargas wouldn't have been any more effective than A-Train in 2000, or Chris Perry in 2001 even. His effect on the team was probably no different than that of Sam McGuffie leaving--hurts, but he was just a speedy little dude. After the Notre Dame game where Fargas busted out, every time he went in everybody knew he was going to try to run outside, and eventually opponents shut him down. Fargas had a better pro career, such as it was, but Thomas was a by far a better college back, and only a year separated from Justin.
And while Henson might have beaten Washington and Ohio State and Michigan State (though was Navarre all that bad in that game?), we got torched by Tennessee, and that's the sort of team we would have had to beat to win the N.C.
I basically agree. There was a great line at the NFL draft in 2001, after having the 8th, 17th, 18th, 38th, and 43rd players all come from Michigan- "How did they lose 3 games...especially when they could have had a 6th if Henson had been the top pick?" "Did you see who was drafted? They were all on offense. The defense, however..." (Terrell, Hutchinson, Backus, Thomas, Williams). Probably beat UCLA with Henson. But Henson couldn't stop us from giving up 32 to Drew Brees, and 51 wasn't enough against Northwestern. (Heck, we gave up 31 to Illinois, 26 to OSU, and 28 to Auburn in wins).
Compete for one if he comes back in 2001? Maybe. Navarre wasn't particularly good out at Washington, and pretty awful against OSU. Not sure the the Spartans were letting us win up there that day. I suppose we might have had a big enough lead so they couldn't cheat, but maybe it would have just been more. But Tennessee was a team that should have been playing for the title, and I don't think Henson was 28 points good.
I don't think Fargas would have made that big a difference for the team, because we weren't hurting for running backs then. I will question that ND was his only breakout game. Against NW as a freshmen is what I remember him for. The shifty guy running tough in the pouring rain where he couldn't run outside. Then he got injured, and was never really the same. So we'll never know how much better he could have been without bad advice from Michigan doctors. But it probably would have been pretty negligible overall.
Precisely. I remember Fargas for the NW game too. Watched that one with the WISE girls on the top floor of Mosher-Jordan, trying to explain football to a bunch of 18-year-old female nerds and not paying attention to any of them because I was so intent on not losing to Northwestern.
That's where my mind went first, too. I'm looking back at that class, though, and the distribution of players by position was really bizarre (most notably in how thin it was along the lines). I know that some of these guys switched positions, but that class had:
5.5 RBs/FBs (see below)
1 OL (Joe Denay)
0.5 DL (Dave Armstrong, who was listed as DL-FB)
3.5 LBs (Larry Foote was listed as DB-LB)
Also interesting from the 1998 class... Antonio Gates (the Chargers TE) started at Michigan State, and LeCharles Bentley committed to MSU before switching his commitment to OSU.
Antonio Gates played basketball at Kent State. Almost got to the Final 4 his Senior year if it wasn't for a barrage of threes by Indiana
Players didn't move to bigger high schools nearly as much back then as they would, oh, 10 years later. The best player on the team in the mid-'90s was the running back, and we all ran I-form ISO offenses. It was very common for teams to bring in 5 RBs and sort them out into various skill positions, and scouts for the public were very thin on the ground to differentiate between a standout safety who also played RB and an RB who played both ways. I'm pretty sure people knew Julius Curry was going to be a safety. Charles Woodson was an RB.
You would think we grabbed at least 2-3 consensus 5star recruits to make such a claim. Currently we have zero...
#1 We're talking abotu the best class ever at Michigan (in case that wasn't clear...couldn't tell if you realized that)
#2 Depending on the site, we do have 5-star guys, Scout.com lists us with 3. ESPN has us with a shit ton of Top 150 guys as does Rivals.
Type in the word "consensus", click search and then get back to me about your 5star comment...
And every service in the country has us at #1
UM is the only choice for that position right now. I agree with the basic sentiment of this thread, but It would be less of a reach if we had at least 1-2 top 15 guys.
Is this our best ever? Hard to say; the '90s were good to us for a couple years, but in the "Rivals era" I think the answer is yes.
Who do we need to end up with the #1 overall class? Treadwell, for one, who I think is already a silent commit or damn close to it. I really feel he'll end up Blue and he probably already knows it.
After that, Green would lock it up for us, I think. Although I think we lost a ton of ground when we put all our eggs in the Isaac basket. It'll be tough to lure such a highly-touted guy back to us.
I don't think there are any "studs" left we're going to land.
You're the gift that keeps on giving
I'd rather have coal in my stocking instead.
Dude, even in your "correction" post, you have a spelling error
Someone struggle with a phone so much in my entire life.
I pray for the future of Shippensburg.
Do Androids not have spell check?
(2) throw away any information trying to recuit my son to Shippensburg State.
Must not forget Kenny Wilkins,the RB from Tennessee. Hoke and Co. always has an ace to play!
I think you mean Jordan Wilkins from TN. He’ll be a tough pull as he is very high on Auburn, but you gotta' have faith.
On paper, it very well could be (and only in the Rivals era as it's very difficult to assess 'hype' previous to that). I still think we would need 1-2 more elite end recruits to really solidify it over the 2003 class. That class, although small and thus ranked low (17 recruits), lead the nation in ave stars at 3.82. Additionally, it actually panned out pretty well. That class gave us Woodley, Burgess (#6 player in the nation!), Long, Crable, Hall, Mundy, Englemon, Kraus, and Rivas.
I would say its the best since recruiting has gotten big (so since around 2003ish). However, its hard to say before that. We had some extremely good classes in the 90's.
The potential close for this class is in a word TREMENDOUS. Look at the players that have Michigan among their top schools:
- Alvin Bailey (Top 3)
- Tashawn Bower (Top 10)
- Kendall Fuller (Top 4)
- Derrick Green (Supposedly in line for a couple of visits)
- Cole Luke (Top 7)
- Leon McQuay (Top 3)
- Wyatt Teller (Top 3)
- LaQuon Treadwell (Top 3 or Top 7 depending on most recent interview)
- Jordan Wilkens (Top 3)
Take any combination of three guys from this list and I'd be happy.
Eddie Vanderdoes told AquaMendous recently that he'll probably take an official to Michigan.
before. I'm going to start using it. Brilliant.
Joe Mathis has Michigan in his top 3, for what it's worth
Hopefully we'll get the last visit.
Maybe I'm just pessimisstic but I have a feeling that Treadwell is the only one off that list that we'll get.
Oh, and you forgot Joe Mathis.
If a couple of the three stars move up into four star territory, Morris gets his fifth star, the rest of the commits are top 250ish players, and Michigan lands one more five star, then it probably is Michigan's best class ever on paper. This seems reasonably likely given what I see on the board here.
As for "best class ever," we're probably not even close. The scenario described above is probably about average for Mack Brown's Texas, Nick Saban's Alabama, Pete Carroll's USC, or Urban Meyer's Florida.
I'm more impressed with the character of this class than some of the Texas, Alabama, USC and Florida classes. I seriously doubt this Michigan class will encounter some of the legal and academic issues that seem to have plagued several of the aforementioned.
Just imagine if Shane keeps up the solid progression, and strong outings he's having at the camps, and lands the #1 PSQB, and to land Green and Treadwell? That's a Tebow, Harvin, James / Cooper. And look at the success that they had. This class has so much potential!
Now that was a class, they didn't let up a point all year if I'm correct their senior years in 1901!
Best class EVAR!!1!one!!1!
we didn't have to oversign!
Nothing like mental masturbation on a monday night.
I think if we pull in Treadwell, its a pretty safe bet we will be no lower than 2. If we land Green as well, I think #1 is a lock.
Regardless, we already have 14 4-star commits, as much as Alabama had in their 2012 class altogther. Granted, they also had 3 5-stars, but if we stopped recruiting right now, and assuming none of our guys decommitted, I think we'd be a lock for top 5, maybe even top 3.
if they fill this class out with the likes of Treadwell, McQuay III, and a 4 star RB then this is one for the ages.
Top to bottom I think it is the best Michigan class at least in the past 15 years that I've been following recruiting... but it lacks some of the super elite skill players of the 97 class (Henson, Walker, Terrel, Fargas, etc) which was also ranked #1/#2 (with UCLA I believe). Tredwell/Green look to be that type of guys though.
As to best ever, not even close... some FSU/Miami/USC?Texas classes of past were just insane... like 5 5-stars, etc
ask me in 5 years....
But let's not get too giddy just yet.
1) It is only June Forcristsakes! This isn't even a class yet for 8 more months, an eternity considering we are discussing the whims and fancies of teenagers.
2) This is only on paper. We really need to see what these guys can do on the field before ranking them as a class.
Hopefully this level of recruiting success becomes the norm and it will be splitting hairs trying to decide which year was the best. It will be harder in coming years I would think, as the depth at all positions grows and the implied promise of early playing time fades.
Regardless, I am just so happy that Hoke and Co. put such a positive image of Michigan out there without giving even a hint of scandal.
Agree about the promise of early playing time but people want to play on successful teams and this team is looking to have a lot of potential coming in.
Why are you taking the name of Dayne Crist in vain?
According to scout Michigan finished 2nd in the nation in 2005.
Let's hope that this class doesn't pull the same disappearing act.
Having the Space Emperor in that class nullifies everything else.
You will have to wait first until NSD, then five years from now. Recruiting class success is measured after they graduate. Some recruits may be hype, some might flunk out, get in trouble, or transfer. Only one thing is certain, Those who stay will be Champions.
these kids are talented and kids Michigan needed. I think needs are very important and somewhat looked over but I think between what Michigan needed and the quality of these kids at those very needy spots makes this class already stand out to be one of the best IMO. Go Blue!!!!
That's a good point. Perhaps not the indisputable best in absolute terms, but its gotta be at least tied as the best recruiting performances by the staff considering need, quality, and the recent lack of success on the field. The tides are changing and all that
A couple more at positions of need, like WR, SDE, RB, and CB would be nice. Don't think that Green is A 5 star but would be great. LT, Leon, a miracle SDE pull would put us n a very good position. The ranking are important for recruits to see, but don't really equate directly to success.
That said, If you look at our 2014 offer list, it's pretty sick. We are pursuing almost every top player. Cant knock Hoke and Co. for lack or ambition or success rates. Part of me wishes we played Bama three years from now.
He emphasized "on paper" pretty clearly. He was his own voice of reason. EVERYONE knows we have to wait 5 years, including the OP.
Apologies for providing my opinion on this blog. I thought it was somewhat silly to base the question on the recruiting sites opinions rather than real results achieved on and off the field. Is it the best on paper, maybe. Does paper mean jack shit when we put on pads, hell no! If that was the case FSU and other teams should be dominating, but they're not.
Also the other part of my previous post and others included a small tid bit of waiting until NSD, when the ink is on the real paper that matters. LOIs. Until that happens, you don't know who has switched jerseys, gone back on promises, and who we pull off on day of. Lets all celebrate our recent success, but 2013 recruiting has a long way to go and at least 4 more spots for us to nail down.
sometimes when I'm feeling a little down I just surf on over to our rivals commit page, pull out the lube, and go to town!
Ive ever read on this blog...
Oh come on...
after "Going to town"
and we can have a real discussion on the matter, along with flying cars, laser guns, warp speed and conference realingment
Warp speed, probably not going to happen in five years...the others, old news...
Ask me in about five years.
I love this class. But those saying we are already a lock for top 3 or 5 need to check out the other schools numbers. There are 6 or 7 schools that could pass us if we don't close well and they do. Including Ohio at an average recruit being 4 flat to our 3.7, or PSU doing surprisingly well considering recent events at around 3.82(can't remember exactly but it was in that ballpark) USC is putting together a crazy class. I love what we're getting, precisely what we need a deep talented bunch to spread some talent around. But we have to keep it in perspective. Having our class almost finished means others will gain ground on us and others are putting together great classes too. If we finish weak and end up 6th I'm still happy with what we have.
Any class with Charles Woodson is automatically the best class ever. Fact. After that, this will be our highest rated average of the Rivals era.
I still think we need to land two out of four on Mathis, Treadwell, Mcquay, or Green. Mcquay, TReadwell, and Green would most definately solidify the best of all time. If we got all four other teams would just stop trying and cry.
... without a chart?
And how would we weight a recruit like Tom Brady ex post facto? My own best player in the history of man's inhumanity to man?
We need to wait a few years to see the final product on the field before we can see where this class ranks all time.........