Tennessee is not recruiting well just because they got 18 dudes
Beilein's contract extended through 2015/2016
Despite this season's struggles, I still believe that John is the man for this job. I'm glad to see that the AD office feels the same way.
Link: Contract extension
I'm glad too. Like with RR, I think better times are ahead.
Do you really believe this is only a good move if we get 1 guy to verbal?
You'd be crazy not to want Ziegler, and they'll certainly struggle without Manny and DeShawn. But Beilein is bringing in very solid guys, and has shown over and over that he can do more with less. At WVU, after losing 80% of his scoring from the year before, he won the NIT. This is a great decision no matter how you look at it.
Do you really believe this is only a good move if we get 1 guy to verbal?
I think it is a good move anyways. But, once Manny and DeShawn are gone, I see this team having a difficult time scoring enough points to keep up with opponents. The addition of a solid scorer who fits well within the Beilein system could go a long way towards making the team successful throughout the tenure of the extension.
Why would he come to an obviously struggling program when much more successful programs are offering him? It's fine to tout Michigan's academic bona fides, but to your average top-shelf recruit most schools are all the same because they've got their eyes on the NBA, not a degree.
Because the game is played with one ball and each team can only have five players on the court. Some kids want to play 30+ minutes a game.
The jury is still out on Beilein as far as I'm concerned. He's overseen two catastrophic seasons and one decent year.
Strangely, I have more doubts about Beilein's long-term viability than Rodriguez's. Should the football team go something like 7-5 this coming year (I'm guessing seven to nine wins is likely), Rodriguez and Beilein will have roughly equal accomplishments in their time at Michigan. Rodriguez will have improved his record for three consecutive seasons and will have a very exciting and very young team entering the next couple of years. Beilein, meanwhile, is very unlikely, for the remainder of his time at U-M, to have a team with this year's combination of talent and experience. He's turned it into a full season of Yakity Sax.
Anyway, Beilein's first two years were obviously better than Rodriguez's, but I'm not projecting the next several years to play out the same way.
I'd be interested to hear how you'd define a season in which we make a Final Four run -- because if you're referring to last season as "decent", one that was arguably Michigan's best in nearly a decade, then I imagine showing up in the national semis would be "merely a flesh wound" to you?
To be clear, there's no debate that last season was Michigan's best in a decade. But squeaking into the tournament in the last two games of the season and getting flushed in the first weekend--that's merely a decent year. Exciting at the time, naturally, and encouraging because we all thought it meant Michigan was "back." As I said in my previous message, it felt, at the time, how I'd expect to feel about a 7-5 season from the football team in 2010. There'd be some exciting moments and I thing it'd bode well for the future so I'd remember it fondly. But only someone with utterly shattered expectations could objectively call it an extraordinary success especially when, in retrospect, it foretold precisely nothing about Michigan's future under Beilein.
So the last decade of U-M hoops has lowered my standards for what I'll consider entertainment but not what I'll consider accomplishment. The only difference between last year and Amaker's better years (the ones where Michigan was among the first two or three out) was how the chips fell; one more upset in a mid-major tourney last year and Michigan was sleepwalking through another NIT. One less upset in a mid-major tourney in one of Amaker's years, and the NCAA-absence streak would have ended earlier and he'd probably still be Michigan's coach.
If you think last year's basketball season was more impressive than a 7-5 record from the football team or you think 7-5 sandwiched by a pair of unmitigated disasters is worthy of a contract extension, that explains the difference in our perspectives.
This just astounds me, though I'll have to chalk it up to a huge difference in opinion. Michigan has not been nationally relevant in a decade, and Beilein gave Oklahoma (a team that only had the nation's best player) a run in the tournament with guys Amaker did NOTHING with. A 7-5 season in football is truly mediocre, especially at Michigan (though I'd kill for it next year, it's obviously a building block). The Fab Five, sadly, is long gone, and we're NOT that program anymore. Beilein is bringing us back up.
To argue this year is an "unmitigated disaster" is ridiculous - we were overranked to start the year, though since then we certainly have played very mediocre basketball. But even more than RichRod, Beilein has been successful EVERYWHERE, and showed you some of what he can do last year. Fans of the basketball team are not in a position to look at the last three years and suggest that missing the tournament this year means the sky is falling.
My opinion of this year's team doesn't weigh the preseason ranking and it's not missing the NCAAs that bugs me (there are a lot of reasons teams qualify and many are outside your control). What's disconcerting is the team being so much worse against solid opposition. I thought, before the season, they were significantly overrated, but I thought the team was good for around 9-3 out of conference and maybe 10-8 in the Big 10, which would make Michigan a very safe bet to make the NCAAs. With even the NIT unlikely at this point (I believe they need eight more wins to qualify and can't find eight wins remaining on the schedule), you have to at least understand my disappointment. If your issue is with my expectations, I really did think they were reasonable, but I definitely acknowledge that I was entirely wrong with most of my assumptions.
I don't exactly like being called "ridiculous" for criticizing Beilein's work at Michigan--especially when your counterpoint is Beilein's work at schools other than Michigan--but I actually do appreciate your perspective. Your first paragraph has me wondering whether I'm wrong about Michigan being a program with a very high ceiling.
I completely agree that this has been a very disappointing season (and looks to continue that way). I had basically the exact same expectations you did. It's the unmitigated disaster comment that I thought was a little hyperbolic.
I don't think it's fair to knock Beilein's first season - that was just a bad team that he had nothing to do with. He took those guys and, by any reasonable assessment, had a wildly (and unexpectedly) successful season the next year. I'm just as concerned as you about this season and if it means that the ceiling isn't what it appeared to be. But I don't believe that you win everywhere and suddenly can't do it, especially since Michigan isn't playing any tougher teams than WVU did, and Beilein has been able to recruit better (ranked) guys here.
A 2007 survey of 80ish DI coaches ranked Beilein as the best strategic coach in Division I, and ranked him as the best coach at getting the most wins with the least talent. He's as respected by his peers for his ability as his ethics.
That's the kind of thing that makes me VERY optimistic about the future he has here.
Fair enough. I do tend toward hyperbole from time to time and probably selected my words poorly when I wrote "unmitigated disaster." Something like "extreme disappointment" would have been more appropriate.
Any Michigan fan has heard about Beilein's reputation as a superb tactician and his track record of taking all his previous schools (five, right?) to the tournament. So I'm with you when you say there's reason for optimism. My only issues are with what's happened this season (because, during the season, I care more about the present than I do potential future scenarios) and because, when we talk about what he'll be able to do with Zeigler and Smotrycz, it's worth evaluating what he's done with Harris and Sims (good and bad).
Also, just to be clear, none of my criticism should be read as a verdict and I'm years of sub-.500 records away from suggesting he should be fired (I think, for example, Rodriguez should at least get through 2011 regardless of how 2010 shakes out [barring off-the-field stuff intervening]). This is just me complaining about losses produced by a coach we all agree is much better than this. And complaining about the ways your favorite sports teams disappoint you is, of course, the very reason God invented the Internet.
Totally on the same page. I think the horrifying football failures have made me too defensive about the basketball program.
This year is "catastrophic?"
So would I.
Mind telling me why you think recruiting has suffered under RR?
If you hadn't noticed, Lloyd's last 4 classes are going to have what looks like a combined 7 or 8 guys drafted and that is only if you include the punter. Even if you throw Mallett and Boren in, you are looking at 9 or 10 in four years. Maybe you really hadn't noticed, but the days of not seeing Wolverines in the NFL started with Lloyd, not RichRod. Also, 3 points:
1)RichRod's first full class was better than all but 2 of Lloyd's classes (as ranked by rivals). I am not sure I understand how recruiting has suffered unless you would like to say that as sophomores they are somehow not performing up to your standards.
2)Losing has absolutely nothing to do with your argument. Again, most of the guys playing should be Lloyd's players but his MLBs and safeties are getting beaten out by walk-ons. While we are at it, lets blame RichRod for not starting true freshmen all over the defense which I am sure would have taken care of that "losing" that you are talking about.
3)Tell me which offense RichRod could have run with SheriThreet at QB that would have put us in a bowl game? Which broader range of plays would we be looking at different results with? Are you suggesting we would have made a bowl game with Threet in a pro-set? Or are you just saying he doesn't adjust his offense because that is what you heard on the freep message boards and figured it would fit nicely here?
Why does everyone feel like TZ is the only guy Beilein is recruiting that is worth anything? Morris is looking to be a great PG as a true frosh and Smotrycz is a top 50 guy.
We have seen the potential in Vogrich as well. When we actually get a full team of scholarship players that are not freshman (ie - consecutive full classes of scholarship players) I think we are going to see a big change in production.
will also cover the same span of years that renovates Crisler, builds a practice facility, and upgrades other facilities and equipment.
I think that having consistency for a few years between the bball program, AD, and regents is imperative to modernizing the facilities. This in turn helps recruiting, which helps winning, which helps the program.
Sure we're frustrated right now, but I think JB will recruit OK, and win enough. He also won't slap his players, pay them, or recruit deadbeats. And he is the best guy to shepherd the program for the next 5 years, givin the changes afoot (IMO).
I’m still spoiled. My UM undergrad was ’86-’90 and law school was ’91-’94. My core UM years saw us win a Rose Bowl and bball National Championship in the same year in ‘89, a Heisman with Desmond, reach the NC game two years in a row with the Fab Five, and in the budding years after school, the ’97 NC championship, the Woodson Heisman, and I even flew to Madison Square Garden to watch Tractor, Baston, Taylor, Bullock, etc. lead us to an NIT championship back in like ’98 or so (forgot exact year).
How bad is it now, especially in bball, that we celebrate Beilin - a coach with a losing record who hasn’t proven the ability to outrecruit anyone? Who’s purported top 25 team led by studs Harris and Sims coughed up that abysmal first half against a bad PSU last week (great so we came back and won in the second half against a bad team), and this awful game against a bad NW yesterday at home?
When did UM go by the way of the Harvards and Yales of the world where we take comfort in our athletic mediocrity with talk of integrity and character?
Integrity, character and running clean programs shouldn’t be what we as fans hang our hats on to justify/celebrate our coaches and programs. Those qualities should be a GIVEN in every facet of our lives, and in our university and in our coaches. This is UM after all – top 2 academic school in the Big 10, top college football success and tradition in the world. Yet where has it all gone that talk of integrity appears all we leverage?
When it comes to college bball if it isn’t obvious, a great recruiter/modest coach will beat a great coach/modest recruiter almost every day. No organized sport is more reliant on raw individual talent like bball (Lebron/Cavs anyone?). And to this day, Beilin has not impressed whatsoever as a recruiter. Just one of a dozen examples, but wasn’t it frustrating to watch Novak miss that easy 3 inch put back in the last minute? Give me any front court player on MSU’s team, and that rebound ends up a dunk or sure make, instead of a bad miss akin to what I used to see every day at the IM building by tall white kids… And Stu Douglas turning the ball over in the last minute with that errant pass? How can we call Beilin such a great coach with the endless blunders down the stretch yesterday like that one, or the five second out of bounds penalty? Apologists will point to Crisler Arena, to the facilities, etc., as the reason our otherwise five star coach can’t land real recruits, but that is a garbage argument given that (a) our facilities are not really that bad relative to MSU’s, and (b) this is UM after all and there are a million other selling points.
Point being, I wrote off UM basketball for the year thanks yesterday’s game, and next year won’t be any improvement. In fact, I expect next year’s team to look a lot like NW’s team yesterday – a team that started 0-2 in the Big 10 and will be lucky to win 5 conference games.
Defend Beilin all you guys want, I remain your brother and I bleed Blue, I just see UM athletics from a spoiled prism of yesteryear, and am troubled at how agreeable our fans and programs appear to have become with all of this mediocrity.
Forgot to add that all of this in light of Ohio State's #1 recruting class coming in next year. I just don't get it.
Cosigned. I cringe to think this community will divide, like the RCMB in its heyday, into camps of "sunshine blowers" and "demand excellencers," but there does appear to be a frustrating acceptance of crummy performance. See above where I was negged and criticized for characterizing last year's 9-9 Big Ten team as "decent."
Maybe I'm wrong to think U-M has a high top end as a basketball program, but I've always thought it has nearly every advantage the football program enjoys and even some it doesn't (an elite in-state recruiting base, for example).
Beilein does a lot of things well and should feel a lot of job security, but everyone is eventually evaluated on their performance and not on their background or ethics. Three years in, Beilein is accumulating a lot of data points on the wrong side of the ledger. With Harris and Sims gone next year and a postseason berth extraordinarily unlikely as a result, we're suddenly talking about year FIVE of the Beilein regime without any sense that he's re-established Michigan as even a league power, let alone a national one.
He seems like a really great guy and I hope he works out. Either way, I'll follow and support the team. I'm just much less convinced of his greatness than many on here and don't believe that lowering my expectations to match his output is a reasonable resolution to the current disconnect.
One of your reasons for disliking Beilein is because he apparently can't recruit himself out of a wet paper bag. This is as far as I got. You are exactly the reason RichRod isn't being accepted - you have your preconceived notions of what "UM" is supposed to be and you won't be happy until Bo or Fisher are back at the helm. There are forward passes now in football and also a 3-point line. Join the present day...it isn't bad to revisit and look back fondly upon your time in AA but it does you no good to live in the past and bitch about the present.
You write both about your experience of the glory years under Fisher and the fact that integrity/the absence of venality should be a given. This seems odd to me. Consider the guy who replaced Beilein at WVU, Bob Huggins. Huggins will out-recruit Beilein more often than not, but I'd take Beilein in a coke-fueled heartbeat.
Speaking of recruiting, I think you're seriously underestimating Beilein's performance; last year he got a top-75ish point and a top-125ish 2-guard, this year he has a top-50ish 4 and a top-150ish 2-3 and a very good shot at a top-25ish 2-3, and already for next year he's got a combo-guard (for whom he beat State head-to-head) who's easily in the top 100. These aren't top-tier classes yet, and maybe such classes never will come. But count me as impressed.
You realize that those basketball teams that "spoiled you" sentenced Michigan basketball for more than a decade in the wilderness, right? Our basketball was thrown into turmoil - turmoil that existed before I even set foot on campus 14 years ago - by that team, and you're holding it up as your STANDARD?
Chris Webber was paid, alot, to come to Michigan, and he ratted out the program at his first opportunity. The 2nd generation of "good" Fischer basketball were a squad of drug-abusing, paid players who burned a swath through town, beating the shit out of fellow students and being generally reprehensible human beings.
This is the Michigan basketball you pine for? Manny may have a questionable jump shot, Novak may be undersized, Douglass may be too slow, and DeShawn may be lackadaisical, but these kids aren't doing that shit. I'd much rather claim this team as "Michigan Basketball" than the Fab Five any fucking day.
I'm not positive, but I believe when he was talking about drug abusers curb stomping students he was referring to the Tractor Traylor/Bullock era following the Fab Five, because he did refer to the second era of good Fisher teams.
I assume you think that OJ Mayo, Reggie Bush, and Joe McKnight aren't going to end up hurting USC because USC didn't technically pay them to go to USC right?
I was just pointing out that ChiTown made a distinction between the Fab Five and the Next Generation when he was referring to drugs and fights and sensationalized it a bit because the term curb-stomping amuses me.
dahblue, I don't know how old you are, but the flow of information was differing in 1996-2000 (the Traylor, Taylor, Bullock days) than it is now. There weren't huge message boards like this, and there weren't blogs, and if there were, most people weren't on them because we all had dial-up.
What I'm saying is that there wasn't nearly the network set up that lets us know that Just Feagin was arrested before the media does, and there wasn't a source for rumor-mongering.
My comments about the conduct of Taylor, Traylor, and Bullock are partly based on things I saw with my own eyes (the fighting), their academic record was plain to anyone who had a class with them, and the drug abuse is a matter of public record:
In the early morning of February 17, 1996; a Ford Explorer driven by either Taylor or Traylor, depending on the source, went out of control while returning along M-14 from a party in Detroit, 40 miles (64 km) east of Michigan's campus in Ann Arbor. Among the passengers was high school star Mateen Cleaves, who was on his official recruiting visit. When an investigation revealed that the trip included a visit to Ed Martin's home, the University investigated his relationship with the basketball program. Martin was reportedly returning to Ann Arbor from Detroit with Traylor, Taylor, Cleaves, Willie Mitchell, Bullock, and Ron Oliver after a party that included drugs, strippers and alcohol.
You're missing the point. I saw, myself, with my own eyes, three of the players in question beat the shit out of students on at least 2 occasions. That's not "defamation".
First, your post assumes that Webber stopped taking loans at 14? No - he took them all the way through his time at Michigan - nearly 7 years worth of them. It's one thing to say "He was just 14!" and another to say "He was just 21!".
2nd, I know the Webber, Rose, King, Jackson, and Howard largely didn't have any discipline problems (other than the massive amount of money Webber was making for playing hoops for Michigan) - my behavior point related more to to Fischer's 2nd era of recruits - Taylor, Traylor, Bullock. I don't know when, or if, you went to Michigan, but I coincided perfectly with those guys - they were widely reviled around school and did nearly all of what I wrote in my post. It rarely made the paper, but it was well known. The poster longed for the days of Fischer - I'm reminding him of what Fischer was:
A poor in-game strategist who couldn't win an NCAA tournament with 3 NBA lottery picks on his team, a coach who turned a blind eye to at least 5 different players getting paid, and taken to coke and hooker parties in Detroit by a bookie employed by the mafia (admittedly, most of this does not apply to Webber other than just getting paid by the bookie). I'm saying that it's idiotic to pine for the days of Michigan basketball that CREATED THE HOLE FROM WHICH WE'RE TRYING TO EXTRICATE OURSELVES.
Finally, if you don't think that WHO was paying them (again, a bookie associated with the mafia) doesn't at least suggest that some of these teams weren't shaving points (combined with the 2nd fab-five's constantly lackadaisical play), you're extremely naive.
Well brothers that’s why I posted, in the hope your replies might add a little sun, although I don’t think we’ll amount to much next year. As for RR, I’m a staunch supporter (so far) and far more sympathetic to him than to Beilin. Bo/Mo/Carr was a great football era that stamped our program as “QBU” and interestingly post Bo - “WRU” –as a favored destination for great QBs and receivers wishing to transition to the NFL, so it made recruiting 5 stars easier. That said, it was under Carr’s watch, with his all-world teams that we started the skid vs OSU, lost to App State and made Oregon’s spread look like the holy grail of football with how easily they toyed with an otherwise great team. No one can blame Martin for going the way of the hip new scheme with RR, and no one can blame RR for immediately implementing his system, which was a 180 turn from the NFL platform pro system Carr had.
Don’t get me wrong fellas. I’m with you in supporting Beilin and RR, but I do find it odd to see some being so ecstatic over Beilin’s long term contract until we see a product better than the miserable last two games I witnessed. Go Blue.
Not sure I'm a fan of this. And why is Martin negotiating contracts as a lame duck AD? it's probably a sign of support for him, but I wish they would have waited to see the results next season and see if the team does enough with low expectations.
Anyone who pines for the old days of UM Hoops is either naive and misinformed or being willfully partisan with an 'its ok, as long as its my guys doing it' attitude.
The only time UM Hoops was elite in my lieftime came as the result of dirty program. Shit, even Bo thought the program was breaking rules and basically wanted Frieder out because of stuff he thoguht was shady.
Those teams were fun, from 1984-1997, but looking back armed with experience and the knowledge that comes with history, makes me feel a little ashamed that I lived and died with their peformance on the court.
I could go on and on about the program rife with problems, but I know I am on a fan site and I dont want to wreck people's recollections and fan experience at the time. Bottomline, however, is that many of players and coaches in that era were trash who dont deserve our continued support.
You’re not getting the point. Why is it that MSU and OSU keep out recruiting us year after year? “They’re dirty” is the loser’s solace. If you asked a USC football fan to pick between Peter Carroll skimming the edges of protocol to provide them the last ten years of USC football supremacy, memories and pride, vs some other coach who was a swell, virtuous, Beilin type that provided them a forgettable Washington State caliber after thought of a program no one ever remembered, my guess is 95% would choose Carroll. “We keep getting our ass kicked, but well, we’re a clean program so goody for us” is the platform of a loser. Does Wisconsin run a dirty program? How come they’re always consistently in the top 25? I guess per your rationale everyone is running a dirty program, except us, so I guess we’re special as we continue to produce completely forgettable product on the court year after year. Like I’ve said before – in basketball, give me a great recruiter/modest coach over a modest recruiter/great coach any day. I will support Beilin, but I don’t support the apparently new UM “they’re dirty, we’re not so it’s OK that we lose” comfort food so many people are dishing.
I didnt even bring up any other school in my post. I never said other schools cheat and we dont. No. What I said was people who are pining for the old days of UM Hoops are a bit misguided since it was created by and large through a cheating, shady program who brought in players that were not good representatives of the school during their time.
I am not dishing out anything, certainly not dishing out the goods you are are by wishing it was the mid-1990s again when this program was an example of how not to run a program by the rules and was not indicative of the Michigan way in any shape or form.
Frankly, I respect what Izzo, Ryan and Matta are doing at their schools. Its about time we got a coach who knows the game, cares about the school, will do it the right way and has the support of the school willing to give him time. We are on the correct path with Beilein.
You just took everything I said, pretended I said something else and responded. Just remember: You are the one wishing for the days when we were still running a dirty program. And, I am the one supporting a coach who just completed the best season in at least the last 10 years, if not 15 years, of Michigan basketball.
I'll let the populace of this blog decide which dish to eat.
IMHO 2 different arguments, people are pining for those type of talented teams, that were in truth, quite entertaining. The extracurricular embarrassing shenanigans that took place off the court were unknown or little known by the average fan.
Athletes in revenue producing sports getting extra perks is not thought to be unusual. Don't begrudge Butch Wade his Caddy and full length fur coat. Connie Hawkins NYC hoops legend from the 60's somehow ended up at Iowa. Hawkins had to work while at Iowa to make some spending cash and his job was "to keep the seaweed of the football field."
It is hard as a fan to differentiate between the degrees in which programs "stretch" the rules. So yeah we knew M hoopsters were getting taken care of, but from a distance, it was impossible to know to what extent.