On behalf of the "drunk sorority girl"

does NOT compare to Richrod. 

Let the bloody LC/RR battle re-enactment begin!

After reading this, I for one wholeheartedly support the notion of yanking out about 5,000 seats from the student section.  That way maybe more of the kids who want to be there will get the tickets and the section will be full.

A sense of entitlement isn't going to make people rally to your cause.  We all understand that you guys don't like the new rules, but you have to admit that the students brought it upon themselves.  Now it is up to you to figure out a way to fix it.  And the amount of whining and crying about it probably isn't the solution.

Obligatory bad-title comment.

You included a BCS bowl season with a win in the Sugar Bowl under Hoke as part of the dark era? Last year wasn't so bad either.

A diverse student body may have something to do with how many people show up, but it doesn't have anything to do with making it OK for sorority girls to show up drunk for only half of the game. No no, you're right. Uh, thank you drunk sorority girls for filling up space for half an hour?

If you want to have a good seat, show up early.  If you want to tailgate/party, well then you get to sit next to the drunk sorority girl who is only going to be there for half the game.  What's the problem?

If the issue is that kids get tickets who don't care that much about football or Michigan Football, then shrink the student section.  I don't need to "be grateful that most of them still go," someone else will happily take their ticket.  Sounds like we should treat them like Kanye West -"my presence is a present, kiss my ass." Nope. 

And this is coming from a soon to be graduating student that believes students serve a vital role for crowd noise, especially with a non-student fan base that's reputation for sitting on its hands is not totally undeserved (except for in big games - UTL was equally as loud as any other stadium I've ever been to).

I am struggling to understand what exactly students are whining about. If you don't care about getting to the game early enough to get a good seat...then don't. But for the students who do care, it's a great opportunity to have a nice vantage point of the game.



Conclusion: nothing you said does anything to discredit or even remotely tell us why it's a bad idea to institute this policu

Assuming your geography based argument is correct, that still doesn't excuse students for showing up at halftime. They go to the school, they bought tickets, they should show up to support the team. If they're not interested they shouldn't by season tickets. This argument does nothing but support the reasoning for GA tickets. The kids that do care should be rewarded.

Cigol - I respect that you are trying to defend your brethren here, but you honestly aren't doing a very good job of it. Your arguments make it even stronger that this should be a meritocracy where the most passionate fans have the opportunity to get the best seats.



All you've really done is try to convince us why this policy had to be instituted in the first place (the students kind of suck).

... at home for two years in a row.  There is no excuse for half empty sections.  

So basically, you're saying that the current students are fair-weather fans who don't care about their football team since they're attending Michigan because of its relative prestige compared to the mediocre schools that they would have otherwise attended. 

You're also implying that attending a state university is somehow negative and you seem to believe that out-of-staters come from better states (or countries) than the state of Michigan (or the USA!).

The only thing I can say is... too bad that you and your ilk didn't get into your first choice college so that you can root for your "exciting" football teams wherever that may be....

1.  How can you say that the 2011 season was "relatively dark for Michigan football."  We had an awesome season, beat OSU to break a far-too-enduring streak of losses, and won a BCS game in exciting fashion. 

2.  I don't get the whole "geographic diversity" think, at least with respect to students from the US.  I came to Michigan from NY knowing little about their football tradition.  Coming to Michigan, I was basketball and hockey obsessed (NBA and NHL, respectively, not college), but I had little interest in football.  It wasn't all that popular in NY in the mid-1990s.  By the second game of the season, I was hooked and never missed (or came late to) a single home game for the next 4 years.  The fact that Michigan has kids that did not grow up idolozing Bo, Woodson, Desmond and Tom Brady shouldn't make a difference past week 1.

3.  Please don't ever lump Lloyd's tenure (during which we never had a losing season or missed a bowl) with RR's.  Thanks.  You may not remember this but late in Lloyd's tenure (the season before his last), we went into the Game undefeated and were a Shawn Crable late hit penalty away from playing in the National Championship Game.

If it makes you feel better, I laugh at the umbrage toward current students.  I happened to be one of the students, back in the day, who sometimes slept until 1 or 2 pm because I was socializing or playing music or reading or watching movies or running around the arb until 4 in the morning.  Regardless, it doesn't seem like too much for current students to have less than 20% of the stadium's capacity, including some of the worst seats, and to have a some relatively small percent of those seats empty in the lesser important games of the season.  And the RR years cannot have helped. 

Now, that does not mean the AD is wrong for going to GA and rewarding kids who come early or doing some other rewards program.  But all the anger toward current students for not filling up their section to absolute capacity right at tipoff is goofy. 

but the main anger towards these people is that they show up late and expect you to move out of their seats. If you wanna show up late and go to row 90, that's fine I guess. Still makes the student section look bad. But don't show up in the 2nd quarter and act shocked and appalled that someone sat in your empty row 15 seat. Go to row 90

Too bad people can't bring in coolers with their own drinks anymore... that way the sorority girls could get drunk AT the game and be there on time.

We had this back in my freshman year of 1986, but they dropped it the next year. Of course, for the following three years we still managed to get stuff in and get to the game on time... but perhaps it's somehow totally different now.

Cigol makes some excellent points about how great the new policy is, and how only over-entitled non-fan students could whine if enough seats were moved from the student section to non-student seating that we reduced the absences at kickoff to 3,000 or so.

Real fans in the student body will get better seats, more real fans among the non-students will get seats period, a the only people who lose anything are (1) people who don't identify themselves as Michigan football fans and (2) people who identify themselves as Michigan football fans but won't deign to attend games (except as an afterthought) until the team proves it is worthy of their support (through multiple mega-winning seasons).

Conclusion:  This is a great policy, and will be better when we get rid of some of the student seating (especially the high end zone seating that gets abandoned anyway).

You made great points, but no one will care. you have my sympathy. 

As a student, I enjoyed the annual migration from meh seats to fantastic ones by the time I was in graduate school.  I went to every game, and went on time (to the big games because they were big games, and to the laughers because I wanted to see it while it was still "a game").  By my last season as a student my friends and I had worked our way to great seats right behind the band.

With that background, I'm sympathetic to the folks grousing about the new GA policy.  I'd typically be in my seat about 10 minutes before kickoff, and stayed for the duration unless it was a laugher.  But in a very competitive grad school - and I worked my way through school, which made time very tight - I needed Saturday mornings to study.

My concern is that folks will now need to piss away an hour or more just to secure decent seats.  Time is a valuable commodity to some segments of the student body, and this policy forces those students to choose between study and crappy seats.

Again, I've no dog in this fight as I'm not likely to be a student again.  I also recognize that, unless things have changed very recently, seat assigments were often ignored anyway.  But having been the beneficiary of the old policy and having been a good fan, I think reasonable folks can oppose this new policy.

I find your logic questionable. Michigan has been a broad-ranging national/international school for decades.

As for the "no exciting games theory, what in the tapdancing hell are you talking about? There weren't many exciting games in 2010. Great. But 2011 had the UTL game, damn entertaining wins over Illinois and Nebraska, and a nice little battle with Ohio State. They also won a damn Sugar Bowl. And yet 2012 saw TERRIBLE attendance. Just brutal.

But regardless of the reason, what is the problem here? If a quarter of the students aren't gonna show, why are we going to continue to reserve a seat for each and every student? It makes no sense.

the entitlement displayed by the original poster is nauseating.

We should be grateful you bother to show up at all?  no.   but maybe you'll understand how poor your logic is when you grow up a bit.    Sorry kids - get over yourselves.  And be thankful you get to see the games you attend for a fraction of the cash the average season ticketholder shells out.

All the kids who go to UM Dearborn and Flint end up getting screwed. Not that any of you or myself care that much. Just something to bring up. If tickets go to a lottery system AA students will get most if not all of those tickets. I am not sure how the UM Flint/Dearborn lottery system now works but they ONLY have a lottery where every student in AA is promised tickets if they want them

An excuse that needs to die is the one involving the huge number of students who grew up out of state and didn't know anything about Michigan's history or tradition until they arrived on campus as freshmen.  That was the same thing for students a decade, two decades, three decades ago yet they always got to the game on time. 

If you went to the trouble of spending money on season tickets, why the crap would you waste them by not showing up until the halfway into the second quarter?  Why bother going at all then?  If you want to drink all day, drink all day and let someone who actually wants to be there for a whole game buy the tickets. 

I never, never, NEVER thought we would ever reach the point where half the students would put conditions on them coming to games or even making an effort to get there on time.  Noon starts?  Sorry.  A non-rival opponent?  Sorry.  RichRod is gone but his seasons sucked three years ago....sorry.  What the hell is this?  I feel like I'm living in backwards world where up is down, hot is cold and Buckeye fans are classy. 

An empty student section for pregame is pathetic.  Devin Gardner having to put out a video pleading to students to get to the game on time last year is pathetic, especially since it fell on deaf ears.  And your whole post, I'm sorry to say, is pathetic. 

...used to create a happy middle ground:
1- Student tickets should be print at "home" only - Where your seat is assigned the Monday before the game

2- Seat assignments are based on "Good vs Bad vs (no show)" entrance scans - Over your entire student "career"
IE
a- Seniors with exemplary attendance get the best seats
b- Upperclassman who miss or are late here&there pay a lil penitence - But don't get totally screwed
c- Freshman are once again low on the todem pole but get to earn their stripes
d- "Habitual Offenders" are justifiably sent to top and toward the end zone - Or simply denied a seat that week and their ticket is reissued

3- Students without season tickets ..or.. Fans on the Season Ticket interest list get a shot at attending, in place of the "habitual offender" students that have game tickets denied any given week - A non-student fan is significantly better than a non-attending student

4- Students can create "groups/blocks" of tickets that would be assigned together - And scored as a collective for location priority

5- Students that know ahead of time that they will not be able to attend can avoid a "no-show" demerit by confirming online in advance and their ticket can be reissued to either: Students without season tickets ..or.. Fans on the Season Ticket interest list

I may have missed a scenario to consider, but I believe you get my point

My Take on the situation;

Keep in mind that it's not just the "drunk sorority" student who doesn't like this change. A vast majority of students who have been answering polls on Facebook have said they hate it, Brian acknowleged as much in his front page post.

So while everyone here likes to bash the kids who are drinking, the so called "drunk sorority girl", for hating this policy, every student does basically.

Whether kids are pregaming or just sitting in their dorm room, most students would rather have a guaranteed seat at a certain spot that they can get whether they leave at 11:15 or 11:45. Now they have no idea where they'll sit before hand, and most people would rather do whatever they want than have to stand in line for 30-45 minutes before they normally would and still not be guaranteed a good seat.

That being said, as a current student and someone in Greek Life, I'm in favor of the change. I'm willing to leave 30 minutes ealier to get a better seat, I'll just start pregamming 30 minutes earlier. I think if you're willing to wait in line for an extra 30 minutes, you should get a better seat. I'm also fine with reducing the size of the student section. But just keep in mind, this isn't just Greek life who doesn't like this change, most students don't.

You (student section) lost my support for your cause when I remembered the MANY games that damn section was empty in patches.

Sorry, I have no sympathy for those who don't show up when they have tickets at a discounted price. As someone who is about to go on the waiting list for Section 23 (now a $600 annual donation, x2 which is $1200), I have a right to be annoyed. I'm just thankful I have the funds to be on the damn list.

Love the noise you guys bring, but there is none when the seats are empty. Damn.

I have a question for the "shrink the student section!" contingent on this blog. How do you differentiate between a ticket order from a student that will show up and one from a student that won't? If the purpose of shrinking the student section is to reduce no-shows, how do you ensure that the seats you eliminate are the seats of people that wouldn't have shown up? 

I recall plenty of drunk sorority girls from '87-'90. In fact, very pleasant memories. Ahem. Anyway... I wonder if some of the empty seats issue can be traced to the current requirement that nonstudents must validate student tix. Seemed like it was easier to unload the games you couldn't or wouldn't go to when the potential buyer wasn't faced with a hefty surcharge. As a result, more folks were able to buy and use student section tix.

Rutgers policy on no-shows.

• Students are limited in the number of times per season and the total number of times while enrolled as students that they can be a no-show for games.
• Students who accumulate two (2) no-shows in one football season will be ineligible to claim tickets for the remainder of the season.
• Students who accumulate five (5) total no-shows in football while enrolled as a student will be ineligible to claim tickets for the remainder of their time as students.

Doesn't quite address re-selling seats of late people and maybe relegating them to SRO (found this one while trying to search the web for anyone implementing such a system), but still...you're getting to buy season tix at a discount vs. those a few sections away, just GA now.

Hasn't our parents generation fleeced the younger generations enough?

You already have all of our future dollars maxed out on your current credit cards. You have tossed our educations away. Now you want to take our lower priced seats?

Hey thanks guys. Instead of pillaging to obtain your weath you found a new and easier way; steal from your future generations. Well, done sirs.

Oh and thanks again! Thanks so very much.

I'm disappointed, I was hoping a drunk sorority girl would show up to "defend her besties and main betches LOL XOXOXOXO like totes!"

The levels of ether dropped on her would be radioactive

they weren't very good.

The pro-GA crowd has plenty of good points, but I'm getting really tired of this all out assault on students in general. Most of the students are pretty good fans and if you took the student section out completely, going to noon Michigan games against cupcake opponents would have the energy of a golf tournament.

/ducks for cover from outraged alums prepping the flamebaits

Oh my goodness, you damn college kids bug me big time. First, you can't play devils advocate after you state that you act complicity in the opposite way. Your argument is nullified. Secondly, this issue is no longer a "fair" question. If the AD studies the issue, and evidence points to on average or in one game upwards or equal to 5400 students were not showing up by kickoff or at all, this now becomes a "equitable" situation. Simply, the student sections becomes a single "entity" and an equitable policy is applied.



We don't care about your plight, since you created the issue. The AD has feed the monster for too long. That's a fair criticism, but only to a degree. Are you a fan and supporter of te UofM FB team or not? Do you want them to succeed or not? Do you believe in the "big house traditions or not?



Last year they made a corrective action, the students didn't oblige with the HAIL - which was granted a shoddy attempt. This year they are changing policies and procedures and re-establishing an expectation for the SS. That is life. Deal.



All this doesn't matter...I can tell you peeps who don't show or come late, you pissed off the wrong people. If powerful alumni are pressing the AD to make this change, they will do it since their money directly effects the whole AD and UofM.

happened a couple of years ago.  I was trying to help a friend in a wheelchair get into the stadium.  We avoided the south end because it was so congested.  In approaching the areas around those north gates, there was an even much more crowded and congested scene.

It took us a half an hour to be expedited into the stadium and we barely made the kickoff, forget the pregame.

My point is that there were thousands of students backed up and many more coming in from Main, State and Maynard (??).  It was pandemonium.   I'm sure that it took another half hour or even more for most of them to get inside the stadium.  

The problem (as we old farts are perceiving) might be caused by some very real conditions:  

1. The prime seats from the students' pointo of view are the lower rows.  It looks terrific on the monitors!  But there are at least twice as many students in that congested, preferred area.  This may account for some of the empty rows in the nose-bleed rows.  I don't think that changing to GA is going to address this and might even make it worse.
2. Many students don't arrive until 15 minutes before kickoff and maybe they won't because they hate to leave the tailgates earlier.
3. There really aren't enough gates to handle the last minute arrivals.  You really wouldn't believe the crowd.  Something could be done about this in my opinion.

They are often late, but they are loud.

Non-students are often on time, but they are mute.

Both classes of fans have their benefits and drawbacks.

We need the students to spend the first quarter doing shots of shitty vodka at a house party so that they can show up at halftime and yell really loud in the fourth quarter.  We NEED these late, drunk fans just as badly, if not more, than we need the grey-haired punctual grumblers.

Also, if we are going to penalize students for being late, why not penalize the old grumpy people for leaving too early?  How many times have you seen people leaving when Michigan was down a few points at the end of the game but still had an outside chance of coming back?  More often than not, it's not the students leaving, but the pessimistic curmudgeons worrying about getting stuck in a crowded parking area.  So here's my proposal: let's charge people $10 at the exit gate if they want to leave before the clock says 0:00.  All proceeds go to Brandon's Domino's private jet fund.

happened a couple of years ago.  I was trying to help a friend in a wheelchair get into the stadium.  We avoided the south end because it was so congested.  In approaching the areas around those north gates, there was an even much more crowded and congested scene.

It took us a half an hour to be expedited into the stadium and we barely made the kickoff, forget the pregame.

My point is that there were thousands of students backed up and many more coming in from Main, State and Maynard (??).  It was pandemonium.   I'm sure that it took another half hour or even more for most of them to get inside the stadium.  

The problem (as we old farts are perceiving) might be caused by some very real conditions:  

1. The prime seats from the students' pointo of view are the lower rows.  It looks terrific on the monitors!  But there are at least twice as many students in that congested, preferred area.  This may account for some of the empty rows in the nose-bleed rows.  I don't think that changing to GA is going to address this and might even make it worse.
2. Many students don't arrive until 15 minutes before kickoff and maybe they won't because they hate to leave the tailgates earlier.
3. There really aren't enough gates to handle the last minute arrivals.  You really wouldn't believe the crowd.  Something could be done about this in my opinion.

Ford posters over their beds?

Not sure what that means...one of the following I guess...

Just ask yourself, when you are standing in line for the front row seat , "WWLBD".   What Would Lloyd Brady Do?   Be the first in line?  I bet he would.

In regards to the non-Notre Dame non-OSU opponent not being worth getting to the game on time, let's take a look at how different that attitude used to be. 

Here is the pregame show from the 1983 Northwestern game.  In those days, the Wildcats were ten times worse than what Indiana is today.  Coming into this game, Northwestern had lost 74 of their previous 81 games.  But look at the crowd.  Full student section.  In fact there's a closeup of the packed student section singing the Victors at 2:31.    The only empty seats are in the visitors end zone....

Back in the "old" days, an opponent like Northwestern, which was the laughing stock of college football, didn't matter when it came to getting to the game.  How nice that was.   

I get that 7 wins is "dark" for Michigan football standards. But, 2010 was great compared to my first years, 2008 and 2009. Holy shit you don't even know what "dark" is   

As a non-UM student at a school with general admittance for all students, I can attest to the fact that the policy works pretty well.  For a big game, you will have to get there early, but for the most part it works fine.

I do wonder what used to happen to students who studied abroad in the fall.  I went abroad my junior year, and it sounds like under the previous system I would have been punished for that, even though I attended every game that occurred while I was on campus.

PS - From experience, people will probably just send one of their friends early to claim good seats.

I am a recent grad, as a student I made every home game in 4 years, and I have loved Michigan football since I was born.

First know that I am for a change in the system, I hated get moved by people showing up late as a freshman and sophomore and I hate that the student section looks empty at kickoff. It's embarassing! I hate it!

Because of this I have always said they should scan when students get their and the next year your ticket location is based upon your attendance and arrival time.

However, let me explain why I am tired of reading these threads and listening to people on this blog whine about the student section. Here are the things I'm sick of hearing: "life isn't fair" in response to seniors who are getting royally screwed or "if you're a real fan you'll forget about tailgating", or "get there the night before and get front row seats."

All of these arguments are complete crap for one major reason, they are admitting that this new system sucks too. All of you bitch about the BCS, the leaders and legends names, Maryland and rutgers, ect., ect (and for good reason), and I believe Brian and some of you come

up with good changes to these very flawed systems. So, if I was to tell you the bcs was changing to a new system where the two best teams chosen by coaches poll would decide the national championship would you all say "wow what a great idea"? No, because although it may be better, it may not, it didn't solve the damn problem of no fair playoff! How about if I said we added Missouri and Iowa st instead of rutgers and Maryland, who would be happy? No one! So quit saying this is better for this or that reason when the plain fact of the matter is this new system sucks! Sure it might be a little better than the last one but it still SUCKS!

We know what would work, and that's the system Brian has said for years (scanning attendance and time of arrival).

Also, if I hear that it works at psu one more time I'll scream because I have friends that love psu football and HATED that system. Plus, they had different sections for seniors, juniors, ect. So it's not even the same. And anyone who says Michigan state does it so we should, all I will say to you is... This is Michigan fergodsakes!

Now, to anyone who says "DB could make way more money by making the student section smaller, and the tickets are sold to students are sold way below face value, so don't whine about the price increase" here are my responses:

You know how else we could make more money?

UNIFORMZ and ADS IN THE BIG HOUSE. That's a terrible argument!

You know what else is undervalued?

The "salary" of the football players! Pay the football players what they earn and students can be forced to pay full price.



Finally, for all of you saying the student section is too empty at kickoff (I agree), the student section isn't very loud (I disagree) and this system is going to change these for the better (I believe they both suck) here is what I have to say to you. You know who is really quiet, everyone outside the student section! I don't care how empty the student section is, it's way more of a home field advantage than all the old people who don't make any noise. You want to kick them out too? Make their seating like the students? Or do they spend enough $ to give them the option of being terrible fans while the students who pay 20 to 55 thousand dollars a year get kicked out? This football team is part of the university of Michigan. Guess what keeps that university open and allows it to have a football team, the STUDENTS. So cut them a break.



/end rant

Based on that view, I say reduce the student allotment by half, and require the lucky students who do get tickets to clean up the stadium after the game.

Everyone is bitching about students acting entitled. Well, yeah compared to every single non alum inside of Michigan Stadium THEY ARE ENTITLED. It is THEIR UNIVERSITY. They pay tuition, they go to class, they deal with everything on campus. Who cares if some drunk hillbilly from Fowlerville will show up 30 minutes earlier and stay longer. He will pay for his tickets and that is all he contributes to the university whereas students will be more likely to donate in the future and have a stake in the reputation of the school and alums.

Cry about the student section all you want. The BIG sucks so if someone wants to skip the Northwestern game in a snowstorm...let them. I agree it is pathetic to a degree but that is the way the world is today. Older generations didn't shoot up schools and bomb innocent people. The younger generation does for some reason. young people across the board are dumb.

Lower the student section in size if you want but that will screw over true student fans. Yes, the sorority girls will be let in BUT THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN LET IN. It is the way Michigan games have always been (from our perspective). GUESS WHAT? 

STUDENTS PAY OVER $200 FOR STUDENT TICKETS!!! My cousin who goes to Alabama pays like $75. UM over charges the students to begin with so F DB they can do what they want. Hockey season tickets are $200???? WHAT?!?! Western games are free for students and they are better than us recently. The whole system needs reevaluating. I JUST BLEW UP AND WASTED YOUR TIME....SORRRY CAPPPPSSSSS! NEED MOAR SUBS!

Let's face it, 2007-2012 has been a relatively dark era for Michigan football.

Except for the whole winning a BCS bowl thing in 2011 and going undefeated at home two consecutive years. Next year's juniors, sophomores and freshmen will have never seen a home defeat (and almost zero home basketball losses on top of it).  Kind of hard to feel bad for you guys at this point.

My only problem with the "drunk sorority girl" stereotype is the stereotyping of Greek life in general. I know this board is generally anti-Greek life, but that stereotype is just not accurate - as all stereotypes are not a good portrayal of groups. 

There are plenty of undergrads not associated with Greek life who overdrink and don't make it to the games or only show up at half-time; the problem is not limited to drunk sorority girls or drunk fraternity guys. And there are sections of Greek life who comprise the most vocal portion of the student section. A lot of times they are the ones in the front row cheering loudest and celebrating with the players after the game.

Go home OP, you're drunk

I got season tickets in 2008, always arrived before the team ran out, and never left until after the games were over.  Yes, even Northwestern.  That experience kinda broke me...  I still show up early for games and stay late to games I'm excited about / think will be competitive... I showed up within minutes of the gates opening for UTLs, and nearly an hour early for Ohio and Nebraska in '11.  I was early for Air Force, Michigan St. and Northwestern this year...

But after 2008 it's difficult to rustle up the enthusiasm to wake up super early, walk a couple miles to the stadium, and watch us level a floundering Illinios team or another MACrifice.  But I'm also graduating, so I suppose I can't be part of the problem anymore.