landing spot. will be interesting to see how he does.
Chocolate milk is the only recovery drink that should ever be consumed. It is so delicious, and it turns you into Mike Martin (well, not really, but its still awesome).
This was possibly the greatest determination science has ever stumbled upon.
Well coming from someone who has done P90X, the P90X Recovery Drink is excellent (tastes like an orange julius) and is probably better for you than chocolate milk. The basic science behind it is a 4:1 ratio of carbs:protein within 5-60 minutes right after a workout to replenish your energy (insulin) stores which speeds up muscle recovery and therefore muscle soreness; chocolate milk just so happens to have this same ratio due to the sugar added. The only downside is it is around $2 per glass, where as chocolate milk is less than $.50 per glass. Also, they say to use simple sugars as they get turned into insulin fast enough where complex sugars/carbs take too long to break down leading to a decrease in effectiveness.
I'm probably going to start P90X here in the next few weeks. I'm hoping it's as awesome as it's cracked up to be.
Well if you stick to the program it will. I started at a 6'1" 250 lbs. and got down to 208 lbs. I was fat and lazy and had some soreness the first few weeks, but that goes away after a while. I will say that the results really start to show about 7-8 weeks in the 13 week program, so just stick with it and it will pay off (Tony Horton the host said that during the initial test of the program the users were getting pissed at him for the first month and a half and then they started seeing big results).
six days a week? If so, just about any exercise that frequently for that amount of time will "work."
It is an hour a day, except for Yoga X which is 1.5 hrs. I think what the videos do is give you a structured workout that uses specific moves to target specific muscle groups on certain days. Now if you are someone who has access to a trainer to create a workout guide than that is great, this is nice b/c I can do it in my living room and have a structered work out to perform. From personal experience, when I would go to the gym I would just workout with whatever I wanted too, using this program I noticed that my intensity level was vastly inferior to that of the program, creating a more intense routine that I would not have been able to create on my own. But it really is on personal preference.
Depends on what you're looking for. Lose weight it's good. To put on muscle not so much.
"skeezy politician here" and I endorse this post.
It is definitely not a body building workout, but it is very much a lean muscle workout that will create a good base if you would then like to build massive muscles and for most of us it is enough.
Anytime I see the phrase "lean muscle building workout" I dont buy in. First of all its a misnomer because it's physically impossible to lose weight and build muscle at the same time. Your body and muscles need massive amounts of calories, fat, and protein to build muscle which you cant intake when you're losing weight. This is why all body builders for instance have a building up phase followed by a cutting up phase. They will put on 30 pounds and then lose 25 and they just gained 5 pounds of muscle in the process. That being said it's also not human to put on more than 10-15 pounds of muscle in a year unless you have some amazing "supplements" as I like to call them. You can do P90x or any other workout routine and really lose alot of body fat, and it looks like u put on muscle, but in reality you just became more defined and started using your muscles therefore u can show slight increases. There is no way in hell you're going to go from benching 135 to 315 with any amount of time spent doing p90x. That being said its a great cutting up exercise routine from what ive seen.
Lean building or toning is all a load of crapola. I wouldn't go as far to say it's impossible to drop fat and gain muscle, but it's damn near impossible unless circumstances are perfect and the diet is dialed in perfectly (for instance a carb cycling approach with varies caloric intake daily). Totally concur with everything you said.
I would say its more based on how much fat you are talking about dropping. I think I only had a caloric drop of about 300 calories a day (3500 burned and 3200 in), so I would not be dropping fat as quickly as say a 500-800 calorie diet would, but you can use programs like this in different ways to get different results.
I am not sure why you think it is physcally impossible to lose weight and build muscle at the same time because this is very much untrue. Muscle burns more calories than fat and when you increase you muscle mass it also increases your metabolism. If you burn 3000 calories a day but only take in 2500 you will be burning off fat. Building muscle just allows you to burn fat quicker. After finishing this program I definately built muscle because I could see substaintal gains in weight and reps, it's fine if you don't believe, but no need to say something will not work when you haven't tried it, I used to say the same thing.
Thats my point though. Your muscles burn alot more calories and in order for them to grow they need alot more calories. With your 3000 to 2500 example there is no way you can have substantial muslce increases. You will just lose weight, which I think is your goal so you're still ahead of the game. You seem to have a grasp of your body and your goals and uve shown success so good for you. We are just debating two different things. Big difference in trying to bench 405 vs losing weight and becoming more defined. I agree with your caloric statements as long as youve spread them out over 5-6 meals a day. Best of luck to you.
Yeah I agree, this is definately not a program to use if you want to look like Arnold Schwarzenegger. I would say that you could use this program to gain some muscle mass after you reach a weight that you are comfortable with especially if you want to stay at a somewhat normal size, but you will not get astronomically bigger with just this program. A good example is to look at Tony Horton the host and you can get close to what he looks like, but he definately does extra workouts to get as big as he is.
Tony Horton is not what I would call "big" by any means. Is he very lean? Hell yeah! But not big, at all. This guy is "big" and lean. I'm sure you'll see a massive difference between him and Horton. It's also an example of what I mean by looks being deceiving. Mind you this guy lost in the ballpark of 50-60 pounds. In which pic does he look "bigger"?
Finally. Its like when you pick up some jug of protein powder or some weight loss pill from GNC and they show these before and after pics claiming how much muscle he put on from this product. So if i lose 40 pounds ill have 20 more pounds of muscle somehow? Sweet sign me up.
I never said this anywhere. It seems like you are trying to quash all the mis-information from other sites and trying to attribute it to me instead of just having a conversation on what we are talking about. I don't appreciate it.
Wow dude no sorry. I was just talking to this other dude about just misconceptions. Didnt attribute it to you at all. No offense Im sorry. I stated earlier that you seemed to know what you were talking about and best of luck. Hope there are no hard feelings.
It's cool, I actually enjoyed the discussion. I am actually starting another round of P90X to keep losing weight (not to get huge) so it was informative as you two both seemed to help clear up any misconceptions to any other users out there.
is that nobody even realizes quite a few of the people in those before/after photos are using gear. But I say if they're that naive, then it's their own fault.
Yeah, they also choose people that were ripped before, make them gain a few pounds and then lose it again (because they know their bodies can get back to their previous state). So it all becomes very misleading.
That's cool if you want to be that big, I do not but to each his own. I never said anywhere that you can get that big from P90X. I also never said Tony Horton was big, I said look at what he looks like and that is a semi-accurate target of what you could look like (however he does extra workouts to get "bigger"), but it would take multiple rounds to get close.
I would think most people would prefer his look to big dude above, but that is just an opinion.
A good example is to look at Tony Horton the host and you can get close to what he looks like, but he definately does extra workouts to get as big as he is.
This is beside the point though, I was just illustrating the deception of looking "bigger" when you get leaner and I think those two pictures show it very nicely.
First, let me start off by saying I've walked the walk, so to speak. I've added 50 pounds to my frame and I've lost 15 pounds here and there in dieting stints (where I've hit single digit BF%), so I have some basis.
Yes, muscle burns more calories than fat, but I think you're confusing two different things. What you're saying in the next statement doesn't make sense. If you burn 3000 cals in a day and only take in 2500, how do you expect your body to have enough energy to synthesize new muscle tissue? It doesn't, bottom line. Now, the more muscle you have, the more cals your body need to maintain a weight (higher BMR), so losing weight would be "easier", I guess. That doesn't necessarily mean the weight coming off will be fat, but I digress.
The only way to tell if you had gained muscle was to have a before and after weight and bodyfat measurement. "looks" are very deceiving, especially in a cut cycle. Increased strength certainly does not mean increased muscle mass. Strength adaptions are namely neural adaptions and CAN have nothing to do with muscle cross sectional area.
I hope this clears some things up.
I am not a doctor, but just asking a question here. Isn't fat created when you have a buildup of insulin in your blood stream that has no where to go so it goes to your fat stores. Now I agree that weight coming off will be fat, but fat is stored energy so you could make an argument that when you burn 3000 cals a day but only take in 2500, the energy needed to synthesize new muscle tissue can come from these fat stores. Now what you are talking about is building volume and yes, this program probably will not build huge volumes of muscle, but new muscle is formed by creating micro-tears in the current muscle and when it heals, it adds mass. This will happen no matter what just maybe not in the vast quantities you are talking about. Again, this program will not make you look like Arnold, but you can build muscle from it.
it be great if that's how the body worked? Unfortunately, it's not. The only way your body goes to tap stores of energy is if you're in a caloric deficit. Why would the body convert stores of energy (tissue) when it can use free(er) energy (food)? Your body uses those 2500 cals, but you're still in a deficit, so the body unwillingly taps into tissue for the extra 500 cals of energy. Survival instinct man! If the body used fat stores for energy to synthesize muscle, dude, we would all be jacked! Nobody really knows the specifics of what your body decides to use as fuel or else we would all know how to get super lean by now!
Not trying to rain on your parade or anything so don't take it that way, just trying to correct your misconceptions.
I actually meant to agree with you about not all weight coming off will be fat (fingers were lagging behind my brain). To say that the body burns tissue to get those extra 500 calories is a little misleading because if you are on a healthy diet your body should be burning fat stores as energy before muscle tissue at least for the most part (you could potentially burn percentages of both, but fat is burned first) thats is why when people go on a workout routine don't lose all of their muscle. I wasn't trying to imply that fat stores are used to synthesize muscle, just that the body can burn fat for energy and that energy will get put into repair the torn muscle fibers. I don't have any misconceptions about using a 500 calorie diet to get "big", just that you can go on a healthy diet and workout routine to burn fat and build muscle. It is possible, just maybe not as much as you think I am implying (I am not), Anyway it is a good discussion and I am not trying to antagonize anyone.
If you're doing things correctly, then yes, you'll burn fat tissue, but to think the body won't catabolize muscle is, well, just wrong. Look at endurance runners and tell me they haven't used muscle tissue as fuel. There is much debate in the bodybuilding community about what practice will catabolize muscle tissue and what won't, so it isn't as clear cut as you're portraying.
I think the problem is that you're confused between repair/maintenance and synthesizing. It takes a certain amount of energy to repair a "damaged" (you keep saying torn/damaged, but I wouldn't consider it damaged) muscle. Synthesizing new tissue takes a whole lot more energy, which you don't have while in a caloric deficit. That's about as simple as I can make it. You can think whatever you wish, but we'll certainly agree to disagree. You can ask anybody who has walked the walk and gained a substantial amount of muscle and they will say the same thing as I have. By your assertions, you are claiming that the people who do this for a living (bodybuilders) are doing it all wrong. I mean, after all, why would you go through gain/cut phases when you can just go two polar opposite ways at the same time (lose fat/gain muscle)? I will continue doing what I absolutely know works (b/c I have taken scale weights and bf% numbers) and you can do what you believe or "feel" works. Bottom line is, without hard evidence, you're pissing in the wind.
Either way, good luck with your training.
Did you read anything I wrote or are you just arguing to argue. You seem to keep thinking that I am saying you can be a body builder while going through a calorie deficient diet, I have never said this. I have been saying all along (while talking about P90X) that you can gain a small muscle mass while doing a workout like P90X if you stay around 300 calories, more and you will basically just be burning fat and getting a leaner look while not really building muscle, just toning. Also, I never said anything was clear cut, actually I was making the same point as you and stating that it's not clear as to what you will use for energy, just that during a healthy diet, most of it will be fat. I never said bodybuilders were doing it wrong, in fact, in a couple of posts I have stated that if you want to build muscle using P90X you need to be eating about 500 calories more than you are burning, so we are agreeing with each other, you just keep seeming to think that I am disagreeing with you.
FALSE. You can lose weight because you are burning more fat (weight wise) than you are building muscle. In this case, there is a possibility to be losing weight but simultaneously building muscle.
It was too much for me, but I fly a desk all day. My cardio is absolutely terrible. If your cardio is good, you should do fine.
What is the goal of P90X? Is it strength training or weight loss? Insanity seems to be just as crazy with no equipment necessary. Any thoughts on the pros/cons of each?
I just started a hybrid of the two a couple weeks ago (link to the chart since it won't copy right): http://pledgetostayfit.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/hybrid-schedule1.png
I was 60 days through the p90x in January when I snapped my wrist and was in better shape than I've ever been. It's great to have a solid workout program but you gotta be committed to see results; the diet is arguably more important than the workout. The hybrid has been excellent so far and while it's only been a couple weeks I'd recommend it.
Are those programs more for weight loss or strength training? I'm looking for strength training... I'm getting tired of the gym and am looking for a change.
EDIT: Answered below... thanks!!
What Michigan Shirt says is pretty much spot on; the Insanity workout will beat the shit out of you but get you into shape quickly while the p90x will do the muscle building. The best part of the hybrid workout is that all the workouts stay relatively close to an hour; I hated the p90 yoga because it was almost two hours long and was a thorn in my side when I was working a lot.
I hated Yoga X for two reasons: 1) It took too long, 2) I sucked at it. I would often just switch it up with X-Stretch which is basically just an easier version of Yoga.
I should have mentioned the diet as it is extremely important. Make sure you eat a lot of lean protein and healthy carbs and fats. I usually just eat chicken breasts and turkey tacos with whole wheat bread. I will say that you don't need to follow the programs diet, just that you understand what it is telling you. Do not eat more calories than you burn, which can be fairly hard with these programs, due to each workout burning somewhere between 600-800 calories depending on weight. Just eat healthy and you should see gains. Also a tip, try to eat 5-6 smaller meals instead of 3 big meals, I usually snack on pistachios and almonds as large snacks and then eat a smaller meal (3 meals and 2 snacks).
FWIW, I was told that extra lean ground beef is better for you than ground turkey. I was a ground turkey guy until a nutritionist I know told me to stick with extra lean ground beef.
I have heard the same thing, but that's only because ground turkey usually has added fat to keep it from falling apart which usually makes it higher in fat than extra lean ground beef. I actually found a 99/1 protein to fat ground turkey (Jennie-O's I believe) at my grocery store that I use, so if you can find that you may want to try it, otherwise extra lean beef is good too (I will occasionally use this to switch it up).
I'll keep an eye out for it for sure.
eat both? Just because someone told you one is better than the other doesn't mean its necessarily true, right? That's the beauty of diet/exercise! You have to find out how your body responds to different exercise and dietary intakes. I had a "dietician" tell my friend that eating almonds was equivalent to depositing fat on your body. take what you hear with a grain....er handful of salt.
I definately said that I eat both and I agree that you can mix it up as long as you are smart about it. I spend a lot of time researching different types of food and how to eat healthy and there is definately a lot of misleading info out there (like your almond story). Best advice is to just read a lot of health articles (some will differ) and use your own judgment.
Diet isn't really an issue. I don't drink soda or eat sweets (except on holidays), and I don't consume white bread (for the most part). I mainly eat chicken, drink milk, eat whole grain tortillas, lots of fruit and vegetables, drink protein shakes, etc. I eat healthier than most people I know.
But the gym I use (which is right next door) is full of old people, and it's hard to challenge myself every day. They all think it's awesome that I can stand on one foot.
That was my main thing when starting this workout was just to start eating healthier and quantity control. I will say that a good source of information is the free BeachBody forum where they talk about all the supplements and food items that are beneficial to this program.
I first completed P90X and the main goal is definately resistance training, so basically replacing fat with muscle. INSANITY is a crazy difficult aerobic training course that will cut fat quickly, but you will not see the muscle growth that you would see in P90X. INSANITY is more about creating a lean, defined body than P90X which will build more muscle. It depends on what your looking for, but thats a quick summary. Also, INSANITY is only 2 months, while P90X is 3 months, you work out for 6 days in both and take the 7th day as a recovery day (which you will need). My main problem with INSANITY is that it is almost too difficult, but if you watch the people working out on the screen you will notice that they cannot make it through a workout with out stopping either, so it is meant to push you as hard as possible. If you have access to torrents I would suggest doing a hybrid with swithcing out the aerobic training in P90X with INSANITY, but this may be difficult if you are out of shape. If you haven't worked out in a while, P90X is definately easier, but INSANITY will show quicker results. I am up for answering any more questions if you have them.
that answers my question perfectly. I'm looking for more of a strength training regimen, so it sounds like P90X is something I will look into.
when you say things like "replace fat with muscle". I'm not trying to nit pick, just educate. The body likes staying in homeostasis, so getting it to alter it's weight takes a perfect storm of stressors (resistance/cardio) and dietary changes. Fat loss is a much faster process than muscle building, if everything is in line (diet, cardio). And as another post pointed out, it's virtually impossible to build muscle tissue whilst dropping fat.
when you say things like "virtually impossible", as it's use here is not accurate. It is all about what you want out of this program, if you are looking for a program to lose weight while getting a leaner look use this program with a 500 or more daily calorie deficiency. If you are at a healthy weight and want to gain muscle you can eat 500 more calories than you burn. For most people who want to do both than you can go to a 200-300 calorie deficiency and gain some muscle mass while still dropping fat, it is possible as I have done it. I am not trying to come on here as a bodybuilder. I am still a little overweight, but after dropping 40 lbs. I believe that I can speak to the validity of this program.
Note: I am not a P90X spokesman even though it may seem like I am trying to act like one, just a satisfied user.
I watched Barwis at a coaching conference two years ago and he told us all that chocolate milk was the way to go. I encourage all of my players to drink as much as they can, specifically before (not too much before!) and after workouts.
Your avatar is fantastic.
chocolate milk if he didn't have to follow the NCAA guidelines, which limit the protein ratio of drinks that schools can provide their atheletes.
Coach Barwis would still recommend chocolate milk as a recovery drink.
Do the players actually drink chocolate milk post workout?
I always thought when the players referred to post workout "chocolate milk" that they were actually drinking a protein shake or something along those lines.
Milk also contains casein protein which is a good, slow-digesting protein.
the conference I was at, Barwis said to have players drink actual choclate milk after workouts.
Nope, actual, glorious chocolate milk.
Yes, the players actually drink chocolate milk. There's a drink station in the facility that has three different types of chocolate milk. I forget what the three types are, but there's regular chocolate milk, mint chocolate milk, and something else.
Never heard of that. It sounds glorious!!! Any idea where to buy that?
Me neither. I just made Homer's drool face.
I've never seen it at the store or anything. I assumed they added mint flavoring to regular chocolate milk, but that's just a wild-ass guess.
It's actually chocolate milk, and fwiw, Michigan athletes have been told to drink chocolate milk well before Barwis was there.
I have been lifting for years. Never competed, but would certainly term myself an advanced weight lifter. Chocolate milk has been used as a post-workout recovery drink for ages. Why?
After a workout, you want two things: (1) protein, preferably some of which is in the form of whey protein, and (2) high glycemic carbs (i.e. mostly sugar, so that it gets to your muscled ASAP and causes an insulin response that allows your body to maximize protein absorption).
The one thing that you do not want is fat right after a workout, because it slows down the above-described insulin response, minimizing the amount of protein that goes to the muscles.
Clocolate milk - presumably he is using skim or 1% - is the perfect drink. The chocolate is essentially straight suger, and the milk is a perfect mix of simple carbs (milk sugar) and protein.
Oh, and it tastes really good, too.
I can think of a couple of sports within Mich that also have chocolate milk dispensers.
Also, Barwis is very fond of cherry juice for his guys.
I guess if you are Maurice Clarett, it is better to "Get your Goose on".
Have you guys seen Barwis' bowl conditioning regimen?
I constantly wonder about this. So, Rocky climbs this mountain in Russia for training. If the movie has it right, he summits said mountain around sunset. So, how does Rocky get down?
a) Riding the avalanche down caused by screaming "Drago" really loud?
b) Hearts on Firing his way down in the dark?
c) Sleeps on the mountain and comes down in the morning.
I just figured he suffered a bout of posttraumatic stress when he got to the top, hid out on the mountain, set traps, and killed a bunch of vietnam-veteran hating sheriff's deputies.
You know what Michigan could use right about now? A montage. That would surely get us ready for the bowl game.
Not that Barwis's endorsement isn't plenty, but my wife is a Registered Dietitian and has been bringing chocolate milk to the high school athletes in our family's games for a couple of years now. As you might guess, we're pretty popular...
For those who have heard Barwis speak, has he ever addressed players who cannot drink milk? I'm lactose intolerant, so I've been using protein shakes with good results, but miss being able to just chug some good ol' chocolate milk.
All I really remember hearing him say was something along the lines of, "People spend tons of money on expensive protien shakes, when all they really need to do is spend a few bucks on a gallon of choclate milk." Not an exact quote, but you get the idea.
Obviously if you are lactose intolerant, you don't have much of a choice.
The sports nutritionist from the University of Virginia said essentially the same thing.
Works okay with my son, but my mom said just slows the inevitable (I guess she is more intolerant?).
i really can't stand people that are intolerant of other religions, other cultures, and milks.
Of the Texas Longhorns and Alabama Crimson Tide. I swear Bear Bryant must have skipped on a check during her younger days waitressing or something. It's pretty near pathological.
Wow, this is getting really off the topic of Michigan football, but your mom may have something other than lactose intolerance called irritable bowel syndrom. If she was just lactose intolerant, the lactaid milk should cause her no problems (unless she just has an incredibly bad case). My mother-in-law las IB and the lactiad doesn't work for her either.
Or, is it possible that your mom was just drinking the milk while watching the Wisco or OSU games? If so, I don't think that it was the milk that soured her stomach.
Soy milk and Almond milk are also good alternatives and you can find those in a chocolate version as well.
I drink chocolate milk after I work out; I typically toss in a scoop of whey protein and a handful of frozen strawberries and blend it all together.
Thanks for noticing.
I don't know how long you've done that for, but from my experience (and aparently many others, because these issues ended up being reported on ABC World News) prolonged use of the powder can cause some digestion problems. Also, over loading on protein negatively affects your liver. On top of that, the jury's still out on how much protein you actually get out of the powders.
From what I've read, the dangers of whey protein are only if you "overdose" on it by using an excessive amount each day. I usually consume one or two scoops (sometimes one in the morning; almost always one when I work out in the evening). I still get most of my protein from chicken, eggs, turkey, etc.
Do you know how many lifters have been using protein supplements for 10-20 years without consequence? If it's not already apparent, the MSM is very misleading and uninformed when it comes to anything in this realm. That's not to say it won't effect certain people, but come on. Whey protein? A milk derivative. What's the difference between drinking milk and replacing with a powder?
Where are you coming up with these false claims? Effects your liver? Again, then drinking milk negatively effects your liver too. Not trying to be a dick, but please stop spouting false claims because you clearly don't have any factual basis.
My daughter is a dancer and her ballet teacher suggests they drink chocolate milk after their pointe classes based on the same research.
When do you grow the most in your life? As a baby. What do babies drink? Milk. I remember seeing a quote similar to this from Barwis when questioned about milk when he first came to Michigan.
When I was a baby, I drank Tang.
That explains why you're a 2 foot tall leprechaun and compensate with a ridiculous number of points.... Sorry I couldn't resist.
...with a little bit of Schnapps mixed in.
my parents always said it took the edge off. whether or not they meant HARD EDGE is another question.
Breath and blood samples taken after the first and second weeks indicated that the chocolate milk drinkers had greater muscle rebuilding.
Woah woah woah, you mean there's a way for someone to determine I have all the muscle mass of a six year old girl just by me breathing into something? Eff you science.
From what I have been reading lately (health wise), baby cow milk is not ideal for adult humans, especially pasteurized(loaded with rGBH). Supposedly grass fed raw milk is okay for the body.
about what is the "best" post-WO nutrition. Honestly, post-WO nutrition is overrated namely for the fact that most people don't have their diet in order outside post-WO. Diet is all goal dependent, yet I always see people touting that their NO Explode!!1!!/muscle milk/protein powder alone is getting them jacKeD! This is not to say that supplements are bad, but they are just that, supplements. There's no replacement for whole food.
Either way, choco milk post-WO is a good choice if you're looking to add weight, but not so much if you're looking to lose.
Whey protein isolate, chocolate flavored. Less fat, doesn't make you feel bloaty. Choco milk for the occaisonal change-up, but only if it's sufficiently lowfat (i.e., 1%). Choco milk may be OK for college-aged kids, but not when you're 30-plus.
Why would you trust Barwis? This guy was supposed to be the be all end all and he hasn't shown shit.
1% Brock Mealer and All Big-Ten defensive lineman Mike Martin would like a word with you.
I was using the "G3" post-workout drinks (sold at GNC) all summer and early in the fall and loved them but they are just too expensive as a college student so I'm back to Barwis' methods... would love to find out how they make the mint version.
I read a recipe where you boil chocolate milk with mint leaves, but that seems like too much work.
I'd rather just stick to chocolate milk.
For those who want more info on milk here's a
podcast http://www.superhumanradio.com/ #622
Make it whole (fat is good) or raw if you can get it.
And yes P90X is great for cardio, but it's hard to grow muscle with the overtraining they have you do.
I would agree with Barwis, chocolate milk is a great post workout drink. Heck, even oreos and milk is a great combination. Don't waste your money on protein supplements. I have done them all, and seen more gains from just eating real food.
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