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Bacon's new book not kind to Michigan

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:10 PM
#1
Wolverine Devotee
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Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 126238
Bacon's new book not kind to Michigan

Listening to the podcast from the WTKA show this morning and on the segment 07 podcast they were talking about how "the folks in Ann Arbor and Happy Valley aren't going to like it very much".

The title of the book is Fourth and Long: The battle for the soul of college football.

Gaggity gag. My guess is that it is more whining from Bacon about money side of college athletics. 

News flash: college athletics is a business. Like what he does with Michigan history and the stuff he has wrote ESPECIALLY Bo's Lasting Lessons. Seems any book of his that has "and long" in the title I need to avoid. 

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:14 PM
#2
Darker Blue
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Joined: 10/30/2011
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This thread just reminded me

This thread just reminded me that it is lunch time. Thank you for that. 

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:33 PM
(Reply to #2) #3
Galapula
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Joined: 12/04/2009
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I'm full.

Post lunch.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:31 PM
(Reply to #2) #4
I Miss Bursley
Joined: 01/04/2009
MGoPoints: 410
If you're doing it right then

If you're doing it right then bacon is dessert. 

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July 10th, 2013 at 7:51 PM
(Reply to #55) #5
ChopBlock
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the commutative property at work...

If you're doing it right, you also eat dessert first.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:16 PM
#6
wildbackdunesman
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As long as it is fair

As long as it is fair criticism.  He does care about the school.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:06 PM
(Reply to #15) #7
Monocle Smile
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It's getting old

The next post I read of yours that is fully devoid of self-righteous bitching will be the first.

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July 9th, 2013 at 4:17 PM
(Reply to #42) #8
saveferris
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Joined: 07/02/2009
MGoPoints: 15697
Well....

Just because you're being a contrarian, doesn't make you more insightful than the rest of the board.

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:29 PM
(Reply to #15) #9
DLup06
Joined: 01/05/2009
MGoPoints: 1064
You do realize that to become

You do realize that to become a professor, one must publish?  Bacon happens to be a professor of American Culture and Sports Management, so a critique of what is supposed to be amateur athletics becoming a business fits neatly within that niche.  Agree with him or not, saying that you wish he "went back to being only a professor" is just willfully ignorant of what professors do.

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July 9th, 2013 at 9:06 PM
(Reply to #82) #10
Bando Calrissian
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I'm all for defending John

I'm all for defending John Bacon. I took both of his classes at Michigan. But John Bacon is not a professor. His appointments at Michigan (and, to my knowledge, the other schools he has taught at) have always been as a lecturer, which is about as low on the totem pole as you can get. He is not on a tenure track. He does not have a PhD, nor am I aware that he even has his MA. His publications are not academic publications. They don't count towards anything in terms of the academy.

Teaching college classes does not equal professor.

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July 10th, 2013 at 12:59 PM
(Reply to #123) #11
wolverine1987
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Nor does being a professor deserve any more credibility

on the topic than Bacon, even as a lowly lecturer. There are many professors who couldn't outhink the guy driving my subway car.

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July 9th, 2013 at 9:50 PM
(Reply to #82) #12
Section 1
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Joined: 06/29/2009
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"Instructor"

John is an "instructor," isn't he?  Or is he a "lecturer"?  And, he has a similar position at Northwestern's Medill School.  Right?

I don't think John is a Prof; he's not tenured.  And therefore peculiarly vulnerable, if he couldn't defend his work.  Is he a U-M Ph.D. candidate?  What we know, for certain, is that he's one of the most popular teachers at Michigan, and one of the most popular speakers on the Michigan-alumni banquet circuit.

John U. Bacon has defended Three and Out in speeches and meetings across the country, and in ever major city in this state.  In interview after interview.  His detractors -- the real ones, not the anonymous message board posters -- have never once explained themselves.  As John himself wrote, "The Free Press, which buys its ink by the barrel [a tip of the cap to the old quote -- Twain's? -- "Never pick a fight with people who buy ink by the barrel."] has not spent one drop responding to my reporting on their story in Three and Out."

What a disappointment some of this Board's members have become.  Such fan-boyz.  Can't anyone wait to read a book before judging it?  You boyz can't even wait to judge this book by the cover!  You haven't seen the cover!

I'm tempted to say something very general, like This blog used to be so much smarter.  But the blog, and the front-page content is still pretty good.  Brian Cook hasn't lost his touch.  It's the Hokeamaniac fan boyz who have lost their grip.

 

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July 10th, 2013 at 9:50 AM
(Reply to #126) #13
TenThousandThings
Joined: 07/03/2013
MGoPoints: 351
Bacon

 Bacon is a journalist. He has a Master's in Education, but I don't think he has any specialized training in journalism except later on after he had begun working. He was an undergraduate History major at Michigan.

I agree that the OP (although this is Board-worthy news) might want to think about waiting for the book to come out before making assumptions about it based on non-specific, second-hand information coming from Dan Wetzel -- not that I have anything against Wetzel, but he would want to portray Bacon as supporting his general POV.

If it follows Bacon's general approach, the book will be long on narrative and information, but it will be up to the reader to draw conclusions from it.

I personally find his approach frustrating, as I'd prefer he do both -- provide the story but also make more of an effort to make sense of it. I want to know what he thinks about what he's seen and heard. If he's done it right, I can apply my own critical-thinking skills to decide if I agree with him.

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July 10th, 2013 at 9:50 AM
(Reply to #126) #14
TenThousandThings
Joined: 07/03/2013
MGoPoints: 351
Also

 I agree with your basic point (see above), but the derogatory term "fanboy" has to be the weakest brew ever served on the internet. Even more true for the idiotic variant you employ here.

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July 9th, 2013 at 11:23 PM
(Reply to #82) #15
Scorekeeper
Joined: 02/27/2011
MGoPoints: 107
Lecturer

Bacon has been a lecturer at the university - really low pay:

 

http://bit.ly/151KJQ6

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July 9th, 2013 at 4:00 PM
(Reply to #15) #16
bronxblue
Joined: 11/22/2008
MGoPoints: 59189
I'm not sure what is up with

I'm not sure what is up with your posts, but every one of them seems manufactured from the "whiny 14-year-old who just discovered Reddit" factory.

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July 9th, 2013 at 4:31 PM
(Reply to #15) #17
clarkiefromcanada
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Joined: 11/21/2008
MGoPoints: 37504
Heh.

One of the core concepts of being an academic and maintenance or progression in tenure is write provocative books/articles based on appropriately thorough research methods.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:18 PM
#18
SFBlue
Joined: 11/02/2009
MGoPoints: 10388
Above anything else, Michigan

Above anything else, Michigan football, although I love it, is one of many varsity sports programs at a world renown public research university. And you cannot defend gross excesses that happen at many schools because it is a "business." The securities industry is a business too but it's highly regulated.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:24 PM
(Reply to #4) #19
1464
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What gross excesses?  The

What gross excesses?  The only fair way to deal with the situation is to cap AD and coaching pay.  All other revenues are turned back into the school in the form of funding for other sports.  It's true that college athletic departments are getting greedy, but the greed ends up being sunk back into an arms race to stay relevant, and to stay solvent.  Most departments are in the red.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:46 PM
(Reply to #4) #20
Witz57
Joined: 06/11/2011
MGoPoints: 2076
If you think the securities

If you think the securities industry is well regulated and without excess, oh boy do I have a start up to sell ya :)

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July 9th, 2013 at 9:06 PM
(Reply to #66) #21
Yost Ghost
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Joined: 01/18/2011
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There are

few corners of society that can claim to be well regulated and without excess. 

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:17 PM
(Reply to #4) #22
CRex
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Joined: 09/28/2009
MGoPoints: 9002
Personally I enjoy the fact

Personally I enjoy the fact the Athletic Department has the money to buy a small or moderate sized country (possibly more if they work the donors hard, be afraid Canada).  

As long as we abstain from crass money grabs or other signs of being noveau rich and maintain the proper old money attitude, it's all good.  Old Money for example does not allow a dude in a curly fries suit to attend their event.  By the way, to any Arby executives reading this, the fact it was near impossible to get certain types of Michigan gear with your damn hat on it has ensured I will go a gas station and live off beef jerky, bottled water, and candy bars rather than ever giving you another dollar.  

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:24 PM
#23
highestman
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Joined: 11/30/2010
MGoPoints: 399
Your use of "gaggidy gag" is

Your use of "gaggidy gag" is probably more gag worthy than anything in his book.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:24 PM
#24
lunchboxthegoat
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Joined: 10/07/2008
MGoPoints: 2978
considering his treatment after 3&O

I'm not surprised. 

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:24 PM
#25
Don
Don's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 70402
More whining from Bacon about money side of college athletics

So you'd be OK with advertising in Michigan Stadium.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:30 PM
(Reply to #8) #26
Wolverine Devotee
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Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 126238
Not inside the stadium but it

Not inside the stadium but it already is inside the gates. Marathon, Meijer, StubHub ads are all around the concourse. It's everywhere but inside Michigan Stadium. Crisler has it, Yost has had it for years. 

I suspect some of this book will include complaining about the ticket prices. Those high prices keep the ads off the scoreboards. 

 

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:03 PM
(Reply to #13) #27
TatersGonnaTate
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Joined: 10/22/2010
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Bullshit

Ad money would in no way find its way into ticket holders' pockets.  Our ticket prices will remain comparable to any other big time program, or else they're "under valued".  

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:24 PM
(Reply to #36) #28
Blue Durham
Blue Durham's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 5296
Wolverine Devotee is totally wrong

in that advertising inside or outside the stadium will have any impact on the price of tickets.

Dave Brandon has done everything to maximize profits coming into the program. He will continue to try to charge what the market will bear for 110,000 tickets. Ticket prices will continue to rise until he sees demand drop to the point where the department struggles to sell the last few hundred tickets. We've seen this in the ticket prices, the PSD's and with the suites.

And conversely, if a new revenue source is developed (like advertising on the scoreboard), he is not going to discount ticket prices one cent to offset it.  That advertising has no impact on ticket prices - the are totally independent revenue streams.

But this is also unrelated to what other programs do, but since Ohio State, Alabama, Texas, etc. are selling a similar product, in a similar volume, to a similar audience, there is going to be a similar end result.

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July 9th, 2013 at 9:16 PM
(Reply to #48) #29
MGoSoftball
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Joined: 10/18/2010
MGoPoints: 7684
Econ 101

"Insofar as the amount people are prepared to pay for a product represents its value, price is also a measure of value."

Dave Brandon does not set the price, the market sets the price.  As long as people continue to pay for season tickets, "dynamic pricing" will contiue to keep prices high.

Fairly simple actually.

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July 9th, 2013 at 10:07 PM
(Reply to #125) #30
Blue Durham
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Joined: 06/30/2008
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Not really.

In this sense, Dave Brandon (ie, supply of tickets and its pricing) IS part of "the market." The demand side of the market does not set the price all by itself. In its simplest form, it takes two, and Dave Brandon definitely has a role in setting the price. If he was like his predecessors Bill Martin and Tom Goss, he would not push the envelope and thus not maximize revenues. The previous ADs were not very aggressive in their pricing strategy; nor was Don Canham.

Hence the bazillion consecutive sellout games that Michigan Stadium has had since, what, 1970. This, and long waiting lists, are complete indications that profits were not being maximized, and that was all due to the policies of the AD, not the demand side of the equation. The pricing envelop was not pushed hard in order to maximize revenues and hence, given the virtual zero marginal costs, profits.

Prices rise only if you have to have a seller that is willing to risk reduced demand (and in this case, a loss in good will amongst the community). It is important to note that "reduced demand" does not necessitate reduced sales if the demand still outpaces supply. Brandon has understood that he could raise prices, reduce demand, still sell out Michigan Stadium, and make a lot more per game.

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July 9th, 2013 at 11:05 PM
(Reply to #128) #31
MGoSoftball
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Joined: 10/18/2010
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Exactly my point

DB sets the "initial" price.  However, the market sets the price.  Stubhub, Craigslist, Scalper guy on State St (my favorite) all factor in to the price.  The price will fluctuate depending on many factors, weather, opponent, supply etc.

Why do you think so many season ticketholder sold their ohio tickets to ohio fans in 2009?  They (season ticket holders) determined the cash value of the ticket was worth more to them than watching the game.  Some people (us) did not value the ticket so we sold them to others (ohio) who did value the game and paid a premium for the tickets.

We are a very unique fanbase.  We have the best stadium, the best band, the best game-day experience and dare I say, the best football team in history.  So the value of the tickets is higher than most others even though we have the largest supply.

If we cut 30,000 seats, the tickets would cost $300-400 for Indiana.  The ohio game would yield over $500.  However, I suspect having the largest stadium (supply) has its value in other  forms of revenue (advertising).  

I would like to know how much revenue is generated for the ads outside the stadium.  I would guess it is a pretty penny.  By not having advertising inside the stadium, that raises the value for the ads outside the stadium for all 114,480 to see.

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July 10th, 2013 at 8:07 AM
(Reply to #134) #32
Section 1
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Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 16556
Wrong.

Why do you think so many season ticketholder sold their ohio tickets to ohio fans in 2009? 

Wrong.  By and large, it wasn't faithless "season ticketholders" who sold tickets for the Ohio State game in 2009.  We've been through this several times.  No; it was a phenomenon of the Athletic Department's sale of "banked" tickets during the short period when they did not want to sell them as season tickets because of the pending reduction of the number of seats in the main bowl when seating spaces and aisles were widened.  A flood of tickets went on to the secondary market, and ticket brokers sold them to whoever was willing to pay.

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July 9th, 2013 at 4:03 PM
(Reply to #36) #33
bronxblue
Joined: 11/22/2008
MGoPoints: 59189
Yeah.  Rich people don't stay

Yeah.  Rich people don't stay rich by not maximizing profit sources.  I'm fairly certain we'll see advertising in the stadium from seats that cost $200/game.  There is absolutely no reason for Brandon not to do so until the supply exceeds demand.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:24 PM
#34
Hugh Jass
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Joined: 01/03/2011
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You buying?

I want something spicy but healthy.....what we thinking?

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:30 PM
#35
BoFan
Joined: 03/09/2012
MGoPoints: 3424
Bacon is just trying to make more bacon for himself

He no longer can just use Bo's good name to sell books

I haven't read the new one for good reason.  But give us a break, Bacon is in the business of selling books.  From those who know him he's been out over promoting himself for a long long time.  He used hearsay and speculative controversy to sell his RR book and he'll do the same again.  Nothing is sacred.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:00 PM
(Reply to #10) #36
Monocle Smile
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Joined: 09/17/2009
MGoPoints: 12243
Protip

If you're going to accuse somone of impropriety and deceit to make money, don't be dishonest about it. Bacon got a hefty amount of exclusive access to write "Three and Out," and dismissing everything he learned (or TRIED to learn...remember that Lloyd Carr declined to offer anything of substance for the book) as "hearsay and speculative controversy" is disingenuous and reeks of resentment.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:12 PM
(Reply to #34) #37
ijohnb
Joined: 09/21/2009
MGoPoints: 51900
OK,

put a different way, I don't know how much of 3 & Out of "hearsay and speculation," I just know that it was a spectacularly average read with very little original insight and a staggering inability to capture, or even really identify, important moments both on and off the field.  You would have never guessed he had inside access to some very critical moments in the Rodriguez era but he would have you believe that he could speak as a witness to private Rodriguez family moments where he could not possibly have been present.  In short, it was pretty much a hot mess.   If his new offering is about as good as his previous effort I think I will pass.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:18 PM
(Reply to #39) #38
ThWard
Joined: 07/10/2008
MGoPoints: 4327
To be fair

That's not "putting" the original attack on Bacon "another way," it's tacking towards a totally different criticism.

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:12 PM
(Reply to #34) #39
BoFan
Joined: 03/09/2012
MGoPoints: 3424
Since he didnt interview Carr, because Carr

Since he didnt interview Carr, because Carr does'nt want to point fingers and such, he filled in the blanks with speculation and chose the more controversial option for filling in the blanks. He could have easily taken a more unbiased approach.

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:42 PM
(Reply to #78) #40
Blue Durham
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It was not stated anywhere in

It was not stated anywhere in the book Llyod Carr's reasons for declining interviews with Bacon.

Your "Carr doesn't want to point fingers and such.." is exactly what you accuse Bacon of doing, filling in blanks with speculation.

Could you provide one or two examples of speculation of any substance from the book?

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:48 PM
(Reply to #78) #41
umumum
Joined: 01/06/2011
MGoPoints: 4481
who's filling in the blanks?

1.  Carr didn't talk with Bacon cuz he didn't want to point fingers.

2.  Bacon opted for the most controversial option.

3.  Bacon's approach was biased.

Each of your assertions are what rank speculation actually looks like.  Bacon sourced his book--your post, not so much.

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July 9th, 2013 at 4:55 PM
(Reply to #34) #42
M-Wolverine
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How would you define it other than hearsay?

 

Definition of HEARSAY EVIDENCE

 

: evidence based not on a witness's personal knowledge but on another's statement not made under oath.

 

He reports on most of the stuff in the book from what Rich tells him. That's kinda of the definition of hearsay.  He tells us what happened in the Rich/Lloyd/Martin meeting he wasn't at.  He tells us what Coleman did and said to Martin about things. He wasn't present for any of it. Since he has no transcripts to produce recording what was said, a large, large portion of the book is hearsay.  To say otherwise isn't only disingenuous, it makes one wonder if you know what it really means.  

(And there's lots of speculation, particularly in the controversal areas, but I'm not sure I'd say it's a majority by any stretch.)

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July 9th, 2013 at 5:33 PM
(Reply to #108) #43
grumbler
Joined: 08/17/2011
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You completely miss the point

You completely miss the point about what "hearsay evidence" is.  Rodriguez was at the meeting with Carr and Martin, and was present for what MSC told RR.  To say that Rodriquez (the wtiness) is just providing hearsay evidence is absurd.

And Bacon can't be the witness to anything except what he was present for.

In order to accuse Bacon of using hearsay evidence, you have to show that he is relying on a witness that is simply relaying something that witness heard from someone else.  To say otherwise isn't only disingenuous, it makes one wonder if you know what it really means.

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July 9th, 2013 at 7:25 PM
(Reply to #112) #44
M-Wolverine
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Rich isn't presenting the evidence.

Bacon is. If Bacon is really to be believed, he says that Rich was furious with the book (though no one can figure out why). So he doesn't feel he was accurately portrayed either. But in any case until Rich goes on some official record saying "everything Bacon says I told him I told him" makes it the epitome of hearsay (telling what he claims someone else said without that person confirming on record for events he didn't witness...and in some cases what Rich didn't even witness). It makes one wonder why you though you were qualified to make the argument, especially so erroneously.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:02 PM
(Reply to #10) #45
twohooks
Joined: 01/21/2010
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I Love when Hearsay and Specualtion

Is translated into hearsay and specualtion.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:52 PM
(Reply to #10) #46
Tater
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OK

So, "BoAndHokeFan," if you didn't actually read the book, how do you know that he used "hearsay and speculative controversy" in it?

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:08 PM
(Reply to #71) #47
BoFan
Joined: 03/09/2012
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you need to finish reading the sentance you're

you need to finish reading the sentance you're quoting

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July 9th, 2013 at 4:09 PM
(Reply to #10) #48
bronxblue
Joined: 11/22/2008
MGoPoints: 59189
Well, considering he was

Well, considering he was granted quite a bit of access to "3 and Out" and most people involved with program admit that it was a fairly balanced book, I'm going to go with the noted author and journalist over anonymous internet poster when it comes to credibility.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:27 PM
#49
reshp1
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Do you mean Three and Out as

Do you mean Three and Out as your other "and Long" book? Three and Out was a really, really good book, if for no other reason than it gave unprecedented access to a program. The fact that it covered such a tumultuous time in Michigan was a coincidence that happened after he was granted access (it probably wouldn't have happened the other way around.) Despite having unlimited access, Bacon still presented the information he had fairly, and if anything in a pro-Michigan, pro-Rich Rod way. It is anything but just an airing of dirt on the program.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:34 PM
(Reply to #11) #50
ijohnb
Joined: 09/21/2009
MGoPoints: 51900
3 & Out

was a long winded Rich Rod apologist peice with very little regard for the actual events that transpired during the time he was covering the team.  It was a book that would have you believe that Rich Rod may actually not have known that the Josh Grobin song was going to play when he locked hands to raise them.  It was a book that barely brushed up against many of Rodriguez's biggest shortcomings while not even mentioning his many of his outright failures.  It was far from a really, really good book.  Bacon might as well have been Rich Rod's ghost writer for a book called "My Years with the Evil Empire."  As a Michigan fan I was irritated to the point of being outright offended at the liberties Bacon took in writing that book.  3 and Out was revisionist history at best, outright fiction at worst.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:46 PM
(Reply to #56) #51
Monocle Smile
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Get a grip

I realize that you wouldn't go across the street to piss on Rich Rod if he was on fire, but now you're exaggerating to the point of dishonesty. It's utterly absurd for you to flay Bacon for "revisionist history" when the people who could have offered dissenting opinions or facts not previously in evidence to be included in the book REFUSED TO COMMENT.

Specifics would be nice, but I know you won't provide them.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:58 PM
(Reply to #63) #52
ijohnb
Joined: 09/21/2009
MGoPoints: 51900
I did

not dislike Rodriguez.  One specific is in my post, the audacity to suggest that the Grobin incident may actually have been some unfortunate coincidence, another is below in another response to my post, that the defensive coordinator debacle was not even mentioned in the book.  The Lloyd Carr "transfer papers" that could have been interpreted as much in support of the new coaching regime than in opposition to it but was presented as an absolute slap in the face to Rodriguez despite Carr being in support of the hire.  Really the list could go on for quite a while.

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:42 PM
(Reply to #72) #53
TIMMMAAY
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Joined: 09/08/2008
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Well

I'll start by saying that I was a big RR fan, and I wanted him to get one more year. The Groban thing though, you're right about. I actually have it directly from someone with direct access to Rodriguez, that it was Rita's idea, and that he did not clear it with his publicist (she was out of town) before the event.

I would also say that his choice of publicist was woefully inadequate for the job. 

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July 9th, 2013 at 6:25 PM
(Reply to #96) #54
TIMMMAAY
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He did, but she's not someone

He did, but she's not someone I'd recommend. Obviously. 

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July 9th, 2013 at 4:38 PM
(Reply to #72) #55
jcouz
Joined: 07/08/2011
MGoPoints: 2503
There was mention of the DC debacle

There was mention of the DC debacle that would not allow RR to bring his choice DC from WVA because Michigan would not pay the going rate for a top coordinator.  Michigan opened their pockets for coordinator pay after Hoke was hired.  Also, I am not sure how you can assume or even suggest support from Carr when he had  meetings with and possibly even "transfer papers" ready for players behind RR's back.  By the way, I am not a RR apologist.  I think he never had a chance to succeed at UM.  He was doomed from the start.  Too much division about the hire.  He had to go but should never have been hired in the first place.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:44 PM
(Reply to #56) #56
Blue Durham
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Joined: 06/30/2008
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I have to disagree with you about 3 and Out

but I understand what you are saying.

I cannot think of 1 thing that was revisionist or fabricated. But there were numerous omissions (like what happened with respect to the defense and defensive coordinators).

Omissions and fabrications are not the same thing.

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:04 PM
(Reply to #65) #57
ijohnb
Joined: 09/21/2009
MGoPoints: 51900
They

are the exact same thing if the omission is big enough.

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:51 PM
(Reply to #74) #58
Blue Durham
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Uh, no, regardless of size,

Uh, no, regardless of size, they are not.

"How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg."

- Abraham Lincoln

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July 10th, 2013 at 8:43 AM
(Reply to #74) #59
Blue in Yarmouth
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Joined: 02/18/2009
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dude....

look up the definitions. To omit is to leave something out and to fabricate is to make something, or strictly in terms of speech, make something up. They are nowhere near the same thing.

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July 9th, 2013 at 4:21 PM
(Reply to #56) #60
bronxblue
Joined: 11/22/2008
MGoPoints: 59189
I'm going to concede that you

I'm going to concede that you have a differing opinion on the RR years, but don't act like it was an apologist piece.  Read most coaches' books if you want to see revisionist history. 

And more generally, I want that part of the UM fanbase that believes it is above reproach or failure to pull their collective heads out from their rectums and realize that (*shock*) UM isn't perfect and they make mistakes.  It was a mistake to hire RR because he wasn't a good culture fit, but at the same time UM's culture was/is still quite imperfect, and I'd say downright hostile to change in a way that isn't healthy.  There's a reason this team has won 1/2 of an MNC since right after WWII despite having a talent advantage over all but a handful of teams. 

Bacon's book was amazing, but it doesn't make you an "apologist" if you point out that a guy who wins football games other places and in regarded as one of the leading innovators in college football wasn't a great fit for a pretty staid program and that both sides deserve some blame for how it shook out.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:27 PM
#61
ThWard
Joined: 07/10/2008
MGoPoints: 4327
Huh?

Dude holds U of M to very high standards; what's wrong with that? 

Your "newsflash: College athletics is a business" comment proves too much. College athletics can't continue to have it both ways; treat their coaches and admins like it's a "big business" while treating their athletes like it's a pure extra curricular activity, secondary to the kids' academic pursuits.

 

That's sort of the issue, no?

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:31 PM
(Reply to #12) #62
Cope
Joined: 10/07/2010
MGoPoints: 2274
Actually

I think that's exactly the goal. I know the prevailing mgowinds are pushing heavily towards compensating players, but I think the student-athlete model with academics first and sport as a character building, worthy extra-curricular is essential. And here's the thing no one likes: I think those in administration and coaching have to see it as a business.

The athletes have the pleasure of playing the game and not having the burden of the financial and oversight responsibilities on their shoulders, and that's how it should be. The administration and coaches do not. It is this way in many organizations. Think of churches (I do this not to bring up religion, but as anecdotal evidence in another field). The goal is to develop people spiritually. That is all thats on the mind of the person attending. But the pastor or leader has to be aware of the finances, vision, has to make sure the organization is there for years to come. There is a level of responsibility, even though spirituality is not a "business."

The same is true of sports. The pure student-athlete is similar. Both are supposed to be free of the "business" mentality. But what is the athletic department's voracious appetite feeding? Its non-revenue sports, primarily. The administration has to see it as a business, because that is entirely what their job is: the business of making sure others have the best opportunity just to do the "sport."

The coach's job is to make the sport happen successfully. Administration is to facilitate long term success, and for all the sports. That's why new million dollar complexes go up (new/better recruits), tough choices (perhaps even compromises) get made, maybe ones you and I wouldn't like. Someone has to answer those questions, and yes, it gets "messy," where to draw the line.

I am not advocating unethical practices, in either field I've discussed. I am saying, however, there is a level of fiscal and administrative responsibility to consider how to run the best organization possible, even in a venue as pure--we hope--as sports.

So yes, I see the roles of pure athlete, with an exceptional degree as a reward, and business team that transacts millions of dollars annually as reconcilable. I do not think it is financially feasible to pay athletes (nor is it fiscally responsible) and I am okay with my university making financial decisions I'd find hard or undesirable, because that's their job. I'm okay with leaving it in their hands. I don't want them to make less money, if possible ethically, because that benefits the athletes in all our programs. Better coaches. Better facilities. More exposure. More chance for success. I'm okay with the juxtaposition of the two seeming incompatibles. Though I understand the perspective that many others are not.

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July 9th, 2013 at 4:37 PM
(Reply to #50) #63
bronxblue
Joined: 11/22/2008
MGoPoints: 59189
I agree with your sentiment

I agree with your sentiment that treating college athletics as a business from an administrative end is necessary, but I also think that the perception of these coaches and ADs handling the "messy" stuff so that the athletes can just compete ignores the blending that everyone involved with revenue sports must deal with.  Athletes are not treated as students who play a sport as an extra-curricular; they are treated basically as employees of their teams and schools with work responsibilities that include being a student.  In the words of an astute Buckeye, revenue-sport athletes don't come to play school.  And the players understand that if they don't attend "voluntary" training sessions, OTAs, and a myriad of other non-academic, seemingly not-gameday/practice responsibilities, they can have their scholarship revoked and/or not be allowed to play.  And that mentality also applies to the more traditional non-revenue sports as well, which is even more one-sided since usually the athletes are paying at least part of their own way to be at the school.

I understand that coaches need to be paid what the market will bear for their abilities, and that when you are generating millions of dollars in revenue you need people skilled in managing those resources at the helm.  But athletes and their involvement in both school and sports is a driving force behind that money's existence, and yet the organizations seemingly entrusted to protect and serve them have systematically robbed them of power and agency over their involvement in the process.  That's what I think bothers people so much; not that Ed O"Bannon isn't getting paid for his likeness in a video game from the 90's, but that he (and other athletes) have virtually no control or input into how their work on the field or court is converted into riches for institutions.

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July 9th, 2013 at 10:12 PM
(Reply to #105) #64
Cope
Joined: 10/07/2010
MGoPoints: 2274
That seems a very American viewpoint--

that the athlete, student, participant in an organization should have a say in how the work is converted into riches. But it seems like nothing they should have authority over, to me. I expect I am more in support of authority than some, but I believe it has a purpose. There has to be a general in every army, not every private can control which hill they storm, even if they have the biggest gun in the unit.

I see your point--it sounds like you're speaking about exploiting the athletes. But it also sounds like entitlement to me. The messy part is there is marketing, PR strategy, and budgets that creep into affecting the experience of the sport. That makes it different in many ways from an army, religious organization, or company.

But i do believe it is an amateur one, and I still see a line between admin and athlete that divides the professional from amateur sides of college sports.

I'll agree with you, there are stringent requirements on athletes, and they can lose their scholarships if they don't carry their weight (although most programs do not cut scholarships for lack of attendance at voluntary meetings or not "producing," Saban is the only one who comes to mind as a coach who will actually fire a student w a medical redshirt). But that deal is hardly different from the one I remember in sports when I competed. It was hard work to maintain a level of excellence in all areas of my sport and education. I think that is inseparable from amateur athletics, though the intensity increases at their level.

So I can see how having such big coins pass through people's hands could seem like exploitation of the athlete. But I think anytime an employee or participant calls the shots over those in authority it means trouble--chaos in an organization. And yes, I'll include professional sports in that. Something sits wrong when Kobe seems like he has more power than the coaches, and I think a lack of authority structure hurts an organization. I'm okay with athletes following, coaches leading, and programs deciding.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:31 PM
#65
Perkis-Size Me
Joined: 11/30/2011
MGoPoints: 40765
I took Bacon's class in the

I took Bacon's class in the spring of 2012. The guy loves Michigan to his core, so he wouldn't say anything bad about the school if it wasn't fair criticism.



College football has undeniably, and probably irreversibly, evolved into a huge business, and many programs out there are the absolute end-all, be-all on their campus. In addition to Michigan and Penn State, I think Bacon will take plenty of shots at places like USC, OSU, Bama, Texas, Oregon, etc. In the end, we're all essentially guilty.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:35 PM
(Reply to #14) #66
Wolverine Devotee
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Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 126238
Bacon is a great guy. I've

Bacon is a great guy. I've met him before. Got my Bo's Lasting Lessons book signed in 2007.

He has done great things with the history of Michigan athletics. Football and hockey.

But this. I'm just not a fan of his recent stuff. 

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:40 PM
(Reply to #18) #67
ThWard
Joined: 07/10/2008
MGoPoints: 4327
WD

You can understand some pushback, then, when you create a thread about a book you haven't read based on a radio show comment that it'll "ruffle feathers," right?

I mean, you said yourself: Bacon's a good dude, and most who know him a bit know he loves U of M.

It just seems odd; we ALL fall over ourselves to decry fans of Penn State because no one would accept criticism -- MAJOR criticms regarding terrible, evil acts -- but Bacon writes a book that may "ruffle feathers" on a much smaller scale, and you start a thread complaining about him?

I don't know. Just seems odd. If Michigan serves as his example of what's wrong with college athletics, so be it. Most of us wouldn't deny that college athletics has grown in such a way that favors (and pays) admin, bowl directors, and coaches, all while working players to the tune of 80 hour days with no compensation beyond their scholarships. A little criticism -- even of an institution I love to death -- isn't the worst thing, no? Isn't that what makes us different from the other cultish CFB fan bases we poke fun of?  Or no?

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:39 PM
(Reply to #18) #68
BiSB
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Serious question

How can you not be a fan of something you haven't read yet?

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July 9th, 2013 at 11:20 PM
(Reply to #62) #69
MGoScene
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Joined: 02/26/2009
MGoPoints: 625
Exactly

Judging something you know nothing about is what they do in Malaysia. Probably. I've never been there.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:46 PM
(Reply to #14) #70
guthrie
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Joined: 09/23/2009
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We can't know until it comes

We can't know until it comes out, of course, but from the brief mention in the podcast it sounded like PSU and UM wouldn't like it.  I got the impression from the absence of mentioning the other schools that they wouldn't be in the same boat.

But that's just the inference I drew.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:34 PM
#71
bluenyc
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Joined: 06/25/2010
MGoPoints: 7043
Has anyone read the book?

Has anyone read the book? When does it come out.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:38 PM
(Reply to #17) #72
James Burrill Angell
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Joined: 08/12/2009
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I preordered

I preordered on Amazon and it said expected early September delivery

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:51 PM
(Reply to #20) #73
bluenyc
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Joined: 06/25/2010
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Thanks.  I would wait to read

Thanks.  I would wait to read the book first, then make any negative comments at all.  John U Bacon seems like a very decent person who loves Michigan.  

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:37 PM
#74
Blue in Yarmouth
Blue in Yarmouth's picture
Joined: 02/18/2009
MGoPoints: 5720
I never read 3 & out...

because I just didn't think it would be able to do so with an open mind at the time. I was one of those who supported RR and though he got a bit of a raw deal (please notice I used past tense, I am now firmly in the BH camp, and have been since his hire).

I think we are far enough removed now that I could actually read this book and enjoy it for what it is rather than look at it through a conspiracy theorists eyes trying to find some explanation for what went wrong. 

I had almost forgot about the 3 & O book to be honest, so thanks for bringing this topic up or I might have never read the book. For me to form my opinion on this topic though, I'll have to read 3 & out so I can determine if he has cause for being angry, so I'll come back once I'm done the book.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:42 PM
(Reply to #19) #75
ThWard
Joined: 07/10/2008
MGoPoints: 4327
Blue in Yarmouth

Read 3 & O; I promise, you'll like it.

I, too, supported RichRod, and while I thought it was time for him to go (and am over the moon with Coach Hoke), was frustrated with how everything went down during his time here.

But you know what the takeaway from 3 & O was for me? (1) How amazingly hard these football players work; (2) what incredible pressure they are under; and (3) at least for the team at the time, what good guys they were.

 

Makes you realize that the mess with college athletics is created and stirred by the adults far more than the players themselves.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:45 PM
(Reply to #25) #76
LightTheLamp
Joined: 04/20/2012
MGoPoints: 1854
What I took away is Never,

What I took away is Never, EVER play Josh Groban at  a social function.

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July 9th, 2013 at 8:11 PM
(Reply to #27) #77
Cali Wolverine
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Joined: 01/13/2013
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Some comments deserve more than a 5!

Some comments deserve more than a 5!

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July 10th, 2013 at 11:27 AM
(Reply to #51) #78
Derek
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Joined: 06/30/2008
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There should really be a

There should really be a "this one goes to 11" button.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:55 PM
(Reply to #25) #79
WolverineHistorian
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Joined: 08/10/2009
MGoPoints: 29545
That's good to hear. I read

That's good to hear. I read the book right up to the night before the 2008 opener. But then I could read no further because I couldn't relive all those losses and the end of several major winning streaks.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:37 PM
(Reply to #33) #80
BiSB
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Joined: 08/15/2009
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Try it again

The wounds aren't as fresh. It's worth the read, especially for you.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:43 PM
(Reply to #25) #81
Blue in Yarmouth
Blue in Yarmouth's picture
Joined: 02/18/2009
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Thanks to you

and everyone else who commented and provided feedback. I will be sure to find a copy and read it. Thanks again.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:47 PM
(Reply to #19) #82
MGoVoldemort
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Joined: 07/08/2011
MGoPoints: 5091
Umm

You do know that Three & Out was largely supportive of R&R, right?

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:49 PM
(Reply to #28) #83
Darker Blue
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Joined: 10/30/2011
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Oh, now you tell him. 

Oh, now you tell him. 

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:09 PM
(Reply to #28) #84
Blue in Yarmouth
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Joined: 02/18/2009
MGoPoints: 5720
Yes...

I do know, but that is kind of the point. I didn't want (or need) any more reason to harbour feelings of RR being shafted. At that point I wanted to move on and felt that reading the book would have hamper that process for me. I just wanted to get behind the new coach and over the fact that a coach who I was extremely excited about just got fired. 

I'm far enough beyond all that now that I could read the book and enjoy it for what it is. 

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:35 PM
(Reply to #38) #85
ssuarez
Joined: 11/03/2008
MGoPoints: 998
The book was objective

It doesn't argue that he was or wasn't "Shafted." Most people in the michigan community weren't capable of dealing with an objective viewpoint on Rich Rod, and probably mistakingly thought that it was "Pro" rich rod because it took an objective viewpoint. 

The book was good, but covers a period of time that I am very happy to have moved on from. 

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July 9th, 2013 at 4:33 PM
(Reply to #60) #86
ijohnb
Joined: 09/21/2009
MGoPoints: 51900
Come on,

the last words in the book were that Rich Rod was "finally free."  It was not objective, it was as much of a smear job toward the Michigan athletic department as the Free Press article was toward Rich Rod.  If you want to say that Rich Rod got shafted by all media before the book and that he deserved a little pampering to even the score I could buy that, but the book is pro-RR to the point of being nauseating to read.  Objective it was not.

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July 9th, 2013 at 5:52 PM
(Reply to #104) #87
grumbler
Joined: 08/17/2011
MGoPoints: 8093
That's just your bias

That's just your bias speaking.  3&O was as objective a book about a college football program as I have seen.  It wasn't perfectly objective, because that's not possible.  I didn't have a dog in that fight, so I just enjoyed it for what it was, and cursed it for not having more MGoAnalysis of what happened in the games and why RR's strategy never jelled.

Bacon, alas, knows a lot about the history of the Michigan football program, but not over-much about football itself.  That's not his fault or even a weakness, but it made the book less valuable to me.

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July 9th, 2013 at 10:26 PM
(Reply to #114) #88
Cope
Joined: 10/07/2010
MGoPoints: 2274
Majority opinion around here

When it came out was that it was slanted slightly to RR. The one area I think Bacon wasn't objective was painting Carr in a bad light, with no comment from Carr, nor real sources. Mostly his own inferences, if I remember correctly. And we'll never know. But things that can't be known otherwise aren't made more correct by coloring them through one's own lense.

I think that's a fair criticism, regardless of if Carr was willing to say anything. But I think Bacon tried to write the book in an objective light, or at least as honest as he could to what he thought happened. And he certainly succeeded in eschewing sides enough to piss everyone off.

It was worth every minute of the two straight days I spent reading it.

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July 10th, 2013 at 3:15 PM
(Reply to #104) #89
umumum
Joined: 01/06/2011
MGoPoints: 4481
pro-RichRod, really??

 it wasn't, and he received a fair amount of the blame.   You're the one, it would appear, who was looking for a black-and-white book----with RichRod being the only bad guy--when, in fact, others were also part of the problem.  It wasn't a good time in Michigan football for many reasons, and that is what 3 and Out was about.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:10 PM
(Reply to #19) #90
Canada loves Sh...
Canada loves Shoelace's picture
Joined: 05/16/2011
MGoPoints: 668
Yes, it's high time you read it.

I couldn't put it down, but damn it was painful re-living so many of those losses!

I would mail you my copy but those Nova Scotia postal rates are killer!

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:23 PM
(Reply to #19) #91
SeekingSun
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Joined: 05/28/2013
MGoPoints: 344
it really is a great read....

the most amazing thing is to realize what really it takes for those kids to get out there any play everyday.  The chapter where he followed Denard Robinson for a day was awe inspiring.  I'll never look at the giants lumbering slowly around the union the same way.  No wonder they seems so tired all the time!

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:41 PM
#92
Farnn
Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 11640
Newsflash:  Michigan isn't

Newsflash:  Michigan isn't perfect.  As much as many of you would like to bury your heads in the sand and ignore anything negative about the university, there are things to criticize and just because someone brings them up doesn't mean they are a traitor or only care about money.  

Are we going to start calling anyone who says something we don't like about Michigan a "Fake Wolverine"?  Or run them out of town?  We're better than that, this is Michigan for Godsake!

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:42 PM
#93
MGlobules
Joined: 11/17/2008
MGoPoints: 16432
I've come to trust this guy and--honestly--

think we'd all be a little bit deluded if we believed that Michigan athletics--in such a messy world--could do no wrong. 

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:42 PM
#94
Darker Blue
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Joined: 10/30/2011
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The Real Bacon Book

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:53 PM
(Reply to #24) #95
MMBhorn
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Joined: 09/30/2008
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The Baconomicon!

The Baconomicon!

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:18 PM
(Reply to #31) #96
Eastside Maize
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Joined: 06/09/2013
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Clacktu necktie

Clacktu necktie humrdtgk...... I said the words!

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:26 PM
(Reply to #44) #97
Ron Utah
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Joined: 02/28/2012
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Army of Darkness

Plus 1,000,000 for the AoD reference.  One of the most underrated comedies ever.

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July 9th, 2013 at 4:31 PM
(Reply to #44) #98
saveferris
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Joined: 07/02/2009
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.....definately an "n" word.

.....definately an "n" word.

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:43 PM
#99
BlueGoM
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Joined: 08/25/2009
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really?

So you haven't read the book because it's not even out yet, and you're already bashing both the book and the author?

uh-huh.

 

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July 9th, 2013 at 1:54 PM
#100
BlockM
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Joined: 07/03/2008
MGoPoints: 28426
I think it's a great idea to put a "game" that

I think it's a great idea to put a "game" that takes high school kids, thrusts them into the national spotlight, turns a few into celebrities, injures a bunch of them, and generally treats them as commodities all for the profit of a few under the microscope on a regular basis.

I love college football and it provides a lot of opportunities for kids that might not have had them otherwise, but it's naive to think it's all rainbows and butterflies.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:10 PM
#101
His Dudeness
Joined: 11/24/2008
MGoPoints: -104
Hmmmm.. so if it is one mans

Hmmmm.. so if it is one mans opinion that makes Michigan look good it is a good book (Bo's Lasting Lessons), but if it is the same mans opinion that makes Michigan look sketchy it is a crappy book (Fourth and Long).

Got it. Thanks.

/dies

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:35 PM
(Reply to #40) #102
BiSB
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Joined: 08/15/2009
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Yup

It's the literary version of the "Recruiting services that rank my team's recruits higher are objectively better" phenomenon.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:14 PM
#103
MGoAndy
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Long live Bacon.

Shout out to all the Dave Brandon stooges on the board today. Someone needs to hold the guy accountable.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:27 PM
(Reply to #49) #104
Wolverine Devotee
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Hold him accountable for

Hold him accountable for wanting to make money.

Because he is mean business man!

 

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July 9th, 2013 at 5:01 PM
(Reply to #52) #105
Sopwith
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Joined: 06/29/2010
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Pretty sure his job description

isn't about what David Brandon can do for David Brandon.  What, does he get compensated with UM stock options or something?  And being an educational institution (UM still is one, right?), there are supposedly more considerations for an AD than simply the bottom line.   At least in theory.  And my guess on Bacon's book is that will likely be the well-worn, but still timely theme.  

There's been some good and bad from Brandon, mostly drawn from the same well of unfettered corporatism, but on the whole the athletic dept. seems to be on an upswing, so I figure those of us who aren't his biggest fans can at least admit he's a competent dude.

Let's face it--anyone who can get rich slinging the world's crappiest pizza is probably slick enough to captain this particular ship.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:30 PM
(Reply to #49) #106
Monocle Smile
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That's a bit better

Maybe close to the politics line and still slightly bitchy (although I agree wholeheartedly), but baby steps.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:51 PM
(Reply to #49) #107
His Dudeness
Joined: 11/24/2008
MGoPoints: -104
The business man in me loves

The business man in me loves DB.

The underpaid working man in me hates DB.

And for the time being I don't drive a Lexus...

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:20 PM
#108
SeekingSun
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Joined: 05/28/2013
MGoPoints: 344
Bacon loves Michigan

John U Bacon loves UM.  He grew up in A2, has taught here and idolized Bo and all things UM sports.  Because of his close affinity for the school, he was given unprecedented behind the scenes access to the football team for his book "Three and Out".  But he is a journalist, not a PR guy.  His job in writing the book was to synthasize what he saw, not regurgitate what the Athletic Department wanted him to say.  Only the athletes come out of that book looking positive - MSC, Dave Brandon, Bill Martin, RichRod all made serious mistakes.  UM folk were upset with Bacon re: his unvarnished portrayal and punished him for it - removing much of his access.  

I trust Bacon's intentions.  He wants UM to live up to our highest standards - both ethically and scholastically.  

I look forward to his next book.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:30 PM
#109
oHOWiHATEohioSTATE
Joined: 11/22/2010
MGoPoints: 2861
The fact that

so many people believe that Michigan can do no wrong is what got the program in trouble in the first place. Bacon Loves the university. It would be a slap in the face if he did not write with integrity.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:32 PM
#110
ThadMattasagoblin
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I agree that we're not

I agree that we're not perfect at Michigan but it sounds as if Bacon is making it out to be something that just happens at Michigan when all teams do the same things.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:49 PM
(Reply to #57) #111
BiSB
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Not sure how it can "sound" like that

Seeing as no one here has read it yet.

My guess is that he treats it as something that has infiltrated Michigan... and every other major football school.

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July 9th, 2013 at 11:02 PM
(Reply to #57) #112
CriticalFan
Joined: 10/14/2009
MGoPoints: 1270
why michigan?

Because he has notebooks and notebooks full of observations about UM that are also useful for this topic too! I am not shocked that he didn't pitch them all, then invest years into getting unprecedented access AGAIN at a different school, just to use them as his primary source instead. PSU is not only one of the juiciest topics in recent CFB history, he got a lot of info for free from the other billion journalists that parachuted into Happy Valley and wrote about it. And it seems tough for him to find any other evidence for his argument from other schools across the country as they are either

1) not profitable and thus not big business enough

2) not interesting to most fans or their own alums from a potential customer view.

3) very secretive or protected by their local reporters

4) OSU 

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:32 PM
#113
LSAClassOf2000
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Joined: 01/07/2011
MGoPoints: 81388
Listened To The Podcast...

In listening to the actual segment of the podcast, it seems like this was prompted by a call-in question which mentions a rumor that the book could be damaging somehow. Ira admits to being only ten pages into a draft copy of the book, and is in fact summarizing Dan Wetzel's opinion when he says what it is quoted in the OP.

Interestingly, he also mentions that Bacon's access at Michigan was comparatively limited when held against Ohio State, Penn State and Northwestern (I believe those are the other three programs examined). What exactly that means - if it is the case - will probably not be clear until we are in fact able to read the book. 

So really, there's not a whole lot to go on here other than what may very well be a paraphrase of someone else's opinion of a draft copy of the book.  

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:54 PM
#114
Space Coyote
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Joined: 06/18/2009
MGoPoints: 35079
I'm probably in the minority

But I didn't really like "3 and Out". It wasn't bad, it just wasn't as good as it could have been. I finished it thinking it was kinda meh. To me, it really didn't come across as objective (apparently it did to others, though, so maybe it was me). It seemed more like he was trying to act objective while still pushing his beliefs, which is his right, but it really seemed like it tried to push a lot on the reader, particularly between the lines.

Now, to his defense, he did only have access to one side of things. But I do think he tried to make Carr and Co, and pretty much the whole old staff, look bad. I think he tried very hard to make RR human. But to me, it also came across a bit of "because you gave me access I'll take it a bit easier on you". I for one, would have liked much more in depth talks about what happened  with coaching, player coach interaction, team relationships, and the like, and much less "this player was crying at half time". I didn't feel like I really got to know Michigan's program because of the book.

My personal feeling is that he kind of took the easy way out. It was pushy enough but not overly so to become preachy, it struck at a fanbase that wanted all-access and really just got a taste of access, and it had an agenda that many could relate to or that was controversial enough to sell to those that couldn't. No doubt, it was a good book to sell and because of that a good book to write. I also have no doubt that Bacon does love Michigan. I just think he really kind of took an easy way out for what could have been with the access he had. Not that, in reality, more access would have put Michigan or college sports in a better or more positive light necessarily.

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July 9th, 2013 at 2:59 PM
(Reply to #70) #115
Monocle Smile
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Joined: 09/17/2009
MGoPoints: 12243
I beat this drum earlier

But the criticism of Bacon for his stance on Lloyd Carr rarely seems to take into account Carr's total silence and refusal to speak to Bacon about any of this. Whether you agree with Bacon or not, he was put in an uneasy position by this. Maybe there were other ways to handle it, but I wouldn't want to be in his shoes at that point...there's really no winning.

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:10 PM
(Reply to #73) #116
Space Coyote
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Joined: 06/18/2009
MGoPoints: 35079
I agree he could have been helped by Carr's inclusion

But I also think he inferred a lot because Carr declined to talk. It wasn't an easy position to be in surely, and I think human nature would tend to lead almost anyone to favoring the person that's helping them rather than the one declining too. I just didn't think, in the end, be it with some understandable reasoning, that it came across completely balanced.

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July 9th, 2013 at 5:01 PM
(Reply to #77) #117
MI Expat NY
Joined: 07/24/2008
MGoPoints: 7495
Didn't he say elsewhere on

Didn't he say elsewhere on the Carr stories that he only included the stories for which he had impecable sources?  And that he had quote-un-quote "worse" material that he believed but didn't include because the sourcing wasn't up to snuff?  It almost seems like you and some others want to believe that without hearing from Carr there's no way to accurately describe something that happened.  

I  also don't remember him making a ton of implications on Carr and his reasons for doing things.  If one was being generous to your point of view you could say that Bacon allowed the reader to make his own inferrences absent any statements by Carr.  But maybe that's really your problem, that really the only fair inferrences from the well sourced stories reflect poorly on Carr.  In any event, Carr had the opportunity to set forth his reasons and chose not to do so.  I don't know how that is the fault of Bacon.

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July 9th, 2013 at 7:58 PM
(Reply to #110) #118
Space Coyote
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Joined: 06/18/2009
MGoPoints: 35079
I think you're kind of proving my point

I don't know if he said he had worse material on Carr or not. If he said what you're claiming, that's possibly even worse. If he doesn't have the sources to say what it is than he shouldn't say it to begin with. That's like me being a credible reporter and saying "I have information that [insert Michigan player here] violated serious NCAA rules but I don't have sources so I won't say what he did". It infers something that isn't necessarily true.

I do think a more balanced story could have been told. It didn't necessarily have to come from Carr (see M-Wolverine's post below), but it could have come from others in his camp and a better effort could have been made to try to justify some of what Carr and others were doing. Personally, if I was Carr and Bacon asked to interview me, I'd probably say something along the lines of "why the hell would you ask me a stupid question like that?" Carr has no reason to set the record straight for something that amounts to hearsay. He has even less reason to divulge what are private and personal relationships between him and his former players and coaches, and the new coaching staff. Many people would rightfully think that is none of our business. I would, and I think it's fair to think that. Right or wrong, pleading the fifth allows people to put words in your mouth, and to a degree I think Bacon did that. However, it's like when my dad used to tell me as a kid "you can do what you want". He said I could do what I want, but he was pretty clearly inferring something else. Bacon seemed to say "you can infer what you want" - like my dad used to - in this book without much effort to give the other side to anything more than a minimal extent.

I think it's odd that you say it's my problem that I didn't think the book was fair, as if my opinion was less valid than yours (and that line itself is what spurred this too-long post). I didn't think the book was extremely balanced because I think, albeit understandably, like I said, Bacon told the side of the story he wanted and let readers "infer" the rest of it. I don't think that's my problem. I believe many believe his word to be gospal when there were notable errors in the book that have been proven to be errors, I'm just not willing to think that way. 

At the end of the day, that was only one reason I thought the book was just alright though. I gave my other reasons above. Just don't claim that others and myself that are a bit skeptical of taking Bacon's word as fact when to at least some it came off as unbalanced. I'm not in the business of defending Carr and Co, but I do believe that claims to tell-all of what actually happened does have that responsibility if it indeed is attempting to live up to what it claims to be.

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July 9th, 2013 at 10:07 PM
(Reply to #118) #119
Section 1
Section 1's picture
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 16556
lulz

Dear Leader has no reason to explain himself to the masses because they have no right to know.

I'll read Lloyd Carr's book when and if he writes one.  I have a bet going that he will write one.

Then, I'll expect Carr to answer questions about his book the way that Bacon has taken on all comers with questions about Three and Out.

I have deep prejudice: in favor of people who answer questions publicly, and against people who won't answer questions publicly.  The notion that Michigan football is above the lowly business of answering questions seems positively Soviet to me.

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July 9th, 2013 at 10:45 PM
(Reply to #129) #120
Space Coyote
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Joined: 06/18/2009
MGoPoints: 35079
Laughable response

I bet Carr writes a book eventually, too. I bet it turns out to be much like a lot of Bo's books turned out, in that I highly doubt he answers questions or really even brings up these topics.  It'll likely be about leadership, good stories from his time at Michigan, and the things that his Michigan experience has given him and his family (namely Mott). When has Carr ever been one that aired dirty laundry or spoke about controversial topics? It's never been his style to put all that out in public. He surely won't in any book he writes.

The "Dear Leader" thing is hilarious as well. I admit that I like Carr. I think he represented Michigan well during his time as coach in a very unique way, in that there are very few intellectuals that are also head football coaches. But like I supported Carr, I supported RR and I support Hoke. I do fundamentally disagree that everyone's personal business should be our business as well. Calling privacy "Soviet" is laughable at best. Answering questions publically about private matters does not define America, though much of America's desire for TMZ-style intrusion into business that isn't theirs is unfortunately becoming more popular. Still, you clearly haven't worked for government or checked our own history, rights, or freedoms if you think privacy is a communist "Soviet" ideal.

Your insinuation that I don't think Carr needs to speak out because I worship him is idiotic. You can prefer people to release all their information, that's your opinion, but many, many people feel differently and I agree with them. No one needs to speak out just because you want them to, or some auther wants to, especailly about matters that frankly they have no desire to talk about for a wide array of reasons. In fact, almost every college football coach doesn't speak out about these things of this nature. Additionally, most people in public situations don't reveal what goes on behind the scenes and don't feel the need to justify it, so why should Carr? 

In the end, I'm not here simply to defend Carr, but other people brought it up and started bad mouthing him purely off of a fairly one-sided account. I think people can have whatever opinion they want. My main point is that Bacon - as much as I respect him - didn't do a thorough job getting both sides of the story, among other things that I had problems with the book. I also feel the people that say "Carr had his chance to talk" are misguided in that thinking. I never said the book was bad, just that I thought it could be better.

I do like, however, that you feel your job on this board is always do tear down Carr and anyone who doesn't hate him and for whatever reason still pump up RR, as if many of the posters here were the ones that didn't support him (which is very false). I've defended you in the past, but you continue to pile on or dig deeper, whichever analogy you prefer.

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July 10th, 2013 at 8:30 AM
(Reply to #131) #121
Section 1
Section 1's picture
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 16556
?

When did I ever "tear down Carr"?  Please give me an example.

When did I ever "build up Rodriguez"?  Again, give us examples.

Repeatedly on this Board (unlike most of the rest), I have said that I am not a football coach, and that every man who has coached football at Michigan will have forgotten more football than I will ever know.

My one theory with respect to Coach Rodriguez was that he was treated badly in general, and treated with wild unfairness by the Detroit Free Press in particular.  On that theory, I find both Brian Cook and John U. Bacon in agreement with me.

The worst thing that I have ever said about Lloyd Carr is that if he cares about his place in any public debate about these matters, he should speak up.

Carr was not a merely retired football coach at the time of the Free Press Jihad.  Carr was the Associate Athletic Director for Development.  Carr had that official position, and his bully pulpit position (he was unlike any other associate athletic director in name-recognition) from which to denounce the Free Press.  He failed to do so.  Why?  Maybe Carr has a real answer to that old question.  Whatever he thinks, whatever he may have done, he should answer that question.

And I do hope that Bacon's excellent book puts pressure on Carr to do just that.

Really -- the MGoBoard is becoming more and more like an internet 97.1 of Michigan Fanz.

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July 10th, 2013 at 9:35 AM
(Reply to #140) #122
Space Coyote
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Joined: 06/18/2009
MGoPoints: 35079
The arrogance continues: Now we're all "Michigan fanz"

Like me, as someone that have never been labeled as making succinct posts, you leave a lot  of your opinion between the lines. Much of that comes from the fact that whenever someone even attempts to support Carr you automatically have to refute it and bring up how Rich Rod was treated unfairly. Yet still, even in this post, your direct claim that "Dear Leader" (with two words, essentially trying to tear down both Carr and readers of this Board) is obligated to tell his side because you think he should supports my claim, you insinuate over and over that because he doesn't, because he "failed" to do so, he is not up to Michigan snuff.It's happened time and time again. And, some how, despite my history and what I've even said fairly directly in posts above, you act like I think Rich Rod deserved to get his ass sent to the curb as soon as he arrived at Michigan. You act like you're the only one on this entire board that agreed with Brian and John U. Bacon that the media and the Freep treated Rich Rod poorly. And you're absolutely wrong about that, particularly on this board where people defended him to the end. Yet you get on your soup box and give your arrogant pretension about how somehow you are more enlightened than essentially everyone else, when in reality it comes off as either petty ignorance, or an inability to move on like everyone else. And it's all because someone (me in this case) has the audacity to want a little more of the story before claiming Carr needs to tell his side or otherwise desrves to be damned.

I don't think Rich Rod's time at Michigan was handled how it should have been, by the media, by people surrounding the program, and by Rich Rod himself. What I do think, is that a book that claims to be a objective work that covers the whole story of that time at Michigan should make a better attempt to get at least half the story, rather than the one side. I'm sure Carr has answers. I'm also sure he has every right, despite your claim that he has some sort of obligation because of what his position was in the AD, to not talk about things that are none of our business. I think he could have at least came out and supported it a bit more, I think it was totally overblown that he wasn't going to every corner of the world to defend unjustified attacks, both on him and on Rich Rod.

And your last line is beyond lame. Michigan fans are generally smug and arrogant. I'm smug and arrogant. But you take the cake. The problem is you actually think that you're better than everyone else but you're so damn ignorant of every POV that isn't yours, somehow even when that POV has many similarities as yours.

\ I'll hang up now and listen, since you're essentially a well read, literate version of "Huge" 

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July 10th, 2013 at 9:43 AM
(Reply to #145) #123
Section 1
Section 1's picture
Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 16556
It's "soapbox." Not soup box.

I'm not going to ask you where I suggested that I was "better than everyone else."  Don't waste your time on that wild goose chase.

I'm sure Carr has answers. I'm also sure he has every right, despite your claim that he has some sort of obligation because of what his position was in the AD, to not talk about things that are none of our business.  

It is not, and never has been, a question of Carr's "rights."  He has every right to say nothing.  Which is what he has done.  Nothing.  He hasn't lifted a finger.  For me, I think the NCAA investigation of Michigan football was a public matter.  The Freep sure thought so.  They created the story.

What I do think, is that a book that claims to be a objective work that covers the whole story of that time at Michigan should make a better attempt to get at least half the story, rather than the one side. 

What is Bacon supposed to do, to get a "Lloyd Carr side" to any story?  Other than, you know, repeatedly asking Carr for an interview?

I'm sure Carr has answers. 

Fabulous.  Do tell us what those answers are.

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July 10th, 2013 at 9:58 AM
(Reply to #147) #124
Space Coyote
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Joined: 06/18/2009
MGoPoints: 35079
My response

"Soup box" - I made a typo. I understand it's soapbox. 

Where you insinuate you're "better than everyone else" - Perhaps a generalization, I said above that you think you're better than almost everyone else. The evidence is obvious with the  claims that most of this site is now "fan boyz" and "Michigan fanz" and the other sophomoric insults you launch at anyone who has a differing opinion that you.

Carr's "rights" - He has the right to say nothing. You have a right to an opinion that he should have done more. I agree he should have done a little more. We both have opinions. Alrighty then.

"What was Bacon supposed to do" - Read what M-Wolverine wrote. He didn't need to go directly to Carr. He didn't get all his info directly from Rich Rod. There are lots of sources he could have tried to get that could support, clarify, or at least give another point of view.

"Do tell us what those are" - How the hell should I know what his answers are? Of course he has answers, he's part of the damn story. It doesn't mean he needs to tell them to everybody. Just because I'm sure he has answers doesn't mean I know. Geez, you're dense.

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July 10th, 2013 at 10:30 AM
(Reply to #140) #125
Bando Calrissian
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Joined: 07/02/2008
MGoPoints: 60185
Good lord, give it a rest

Good lord, give it a rest already. This stuff was tiresome when you were doing it three years ago. It's a flat-out exercise in absurdity now.

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July 10th, 2013 at 10:48 AM
(Reply to #153) #126
Section 1
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Joined: 06/29/2009
MGoPoints: 16556
I didn't start this thread.

I didn't begin with any attacks of any kind, on anybody.

I'm responding to what The Board has started.

Bando, I think it is both curious and funny, to see the change, however subtle, in The Board's view of Bacon's two books and his upcoming book.

Before Three and Out, Bacon was widely regarded as an admirable Michigan sports historian; Bo's collaborator and personal archivist.  Everybody loved John U. Bacon.  Then Three and Out was published.  That book vindicated much of what had been written on this blog, and it eviscerated Michael Rosenberg and the Free Press.  There was lots of division at the time, but not about that.  People disagreed about the fate of Rich Rodriguez; not about whether Rosenberg had committed journalistic malpractice.  (Unless perhaps you are still prepared to defend Rosenberg on that front.)

And now, it seems, anything less than total commitment to the future with Brady Hoke (including, it seems any continued loyalty to the work of John U. Bacon) is an unacceptable form of Michigan fandom.

You have never made it really clear -- are you still a Freep defender?

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July 10th, 2013 at 11:02 AM
(Reply to #155) #127
Space Coyote
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There are very few people that are hating on Bacon

I, surely, am not one of him. I love a lot of his books as easy reads. I thought Three and Out could have been better for several reasons, some agreed with that. Overall, it just wasn't one of my favorite books of his, other agreed that it was alright, but not great. I'll leave judgement to his next book up to when/if I read it.

Very few have said they flat out reject him now (outside of possibly the OP and maybe a few others). You're reading what you want into this.

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July 10th, 2013 at 11:19 AM
(Reply to #156) #128
Section 1
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Joined: 06/29/2009
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j-u-d-g-m-e-n-t

Try it.

As for Bacon's next book; I'll tell you about it this fall if you don't have the time to read it.

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July 10th, 2013 at 11:35 AM
(Reply to #158) #129
Space Coyote
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Joined: 06/18/2009
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Both spellings are considered valid in today’s English

Though, you are correct, in that more prefer j-u-d-g-m-e-n-t. You can, however, find the variant spelling that I used even in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. Colour me shocked that you'd nitpick spelling though.

I'll  look for your review of Bacon's next book regardless of if I read his book or not.

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July 9th, 2013 at 11:26 PM
(Reply to #129) #130
Reader71
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Joined: 08/30/2009
MGoPoints: 22152
Section 1, always

Section 1, always vigilant.

 

I love you.

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July 10th, 2013 at 8:34 AM
(Reply to #138) #131
Section 1
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I could not care less...

I could not care less about what people on this Board call me.  Anything, that is, except "wrong."

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July 10th, 2013 at 9:33 AM
(Reply to #141) #132
Space Coyote
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Joined: 06/18/2009
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Yet you're willing to generalize the majority of this board

As "stupid" and "fanz". I've never claimed you're wrong. You have your opinion. But you are pretentious in that you can't even accept well-though opposing point of views.

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July 10th, 2013 at 9:48 AM
(Reply to #146) #133
Section 1
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No problem.

I can readily accept "well thought-out" [I think that is what you were trying to write] opposing points of view.

Indeed, that is why I am having a great deal of difficulty accepting yours.

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July 10th, 2013 at 10:23 AM
(Reply to #149) #134
Space Coyote
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Joined: 06/18/2009
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Pointing out what is clearly a typo

Again, you show just how dense you really are. I refute your opinions with opinions of my own, you insinuate that I'm incapable of having a well thought-out point of view because part of it differs from yours.

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July 10th, 2013 at 9:52 AM
(Reply to #141) #135
His Dudeness
Joined: 11/24/2008
MGoPoints: -104
You're right. You and I have

You're right. You and I have similar feelings on the issue.

People here are more and moreof the all for Hoke ilk, which is fine (he has done well early) and I like Hoke too dont get me wrong. I just feel RR should have been given 5. All coaches should be given 5 unless they do something xcompletely out of line off the field.

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:30 PM
(Reply to #70) #136
Wendyk5
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Joined: 11/20/2008
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I agree with you on this, but

I agree with you on this, but it was more his writing that I didn't love. He took a subject that had the potential to be very compelling and made it bland. It was filled with sports cliches, and was about as riveting as the Saturday evening news. Sports writing has come a long way - just not his. 

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:35 PM
(Reply to #70) #137
CRex
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Joined: 09/28/2009
MGoPoints: 9002
I'd definitely agree.  I was

I'd definitely agree.  I was close to some people in the program during the Carr to RR transition.  Some of them said the things that Bacon eventually published, but many also had credible sounding other sides of the story.  I was definitely dissappointed that Bacon's book mostly told one side of the story and as such is only part of a definitive account of that era as opposed to the definitive account.

I realize Carr wasn't talking and likely never will (not surprising), but even on the board we had a lot of people who could provide views from the 'Carr camp'/'anti-RR camp'/'whatever you want to call it camp' and that led to some really informative (and intense) discussions on the boards.  Bacon should have gone out and interviewed enough people to accurately portray all the forces at play surrounding RichRod as opposed to just saying "Carr won't comment and Moeller won't say anything really substantive, so I'll only tell you what I learned while embedded with RR."  We might have come out looking worse, but at least we'd be closer to having a formal account of that era.

Also the writing style actually felt lower level than many things I read on the board.  Although I suppose his publisher wanted that since the average person reads on a low level, if they can get them to read a book at all.  

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July 9th, 2013 at 4:03 PM
(Reply to #87) #138
Space Coyote
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He did dumb down the writing style

But, like you said, I can't really blame him for that. In fact, you could consider that good writing because it makes it much more available to a much wider audience. So while I found it bland, simple, and safe, I understand why he (or his publisher) chose to have it written* it that way.

*edited it to avoid having a stupid spelling error while critiquing someone for dumbing down their writing

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July 9th, 2013 at 4:48 PM
(Reply to #87) #139
M-Wolverine
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Joined: 10/04/2009
MGoPoints: 42199
That's an interesting point.

Saying that "Carr won't talk to me" is a bit of a co-out.  A number of the attacks against Michigan aren't made by Rich himself, but guys in his camp. (The whole Casteel claims are made by people other than Rich, for example).  There certainly had to be lots of people, from assistant coaches, to friends and players, who would talk about what was going on if Carr didn't. But he doesn't seem to quote any of them to any great length.

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:19 PM
#140
mGrowOld
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Joined: 10/04/2010
MGoPoints: 111768
How on earth can we hope to

How on earth can we hope to form an opinion on an unreleased book that none of us have read yet?  To say "the folks in Ann Arbor wont like it much" is a bit vague for my liking as it raises more questions than it answers.  What wont we like?  Why wont we like it?  What is he saying that we're not going to agree with our want published?  I'm a bit unclear on those pesky detail things.

Look - John U has already penned a book that a lot of people in Ann Arbor "didnt like".  Either because it made one side (the anti RR folks) look mean spirited and petty while painting the other (the pro RR side) as powerless victims of the evil cabal aligned against poor Rich.  And both sides didnt like the dirty laundry aired out so widely for all others to see.

So what's one more book people won't like in his quiver?

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July 9th, 2013 at 11:13 PM
(Reply to #80) #141
might and main
might and main's picture
Joined: 11/18/2008
MGoPoints: 2730
I was all for airing the laundry

Transparency, accountability ... it's what Michigan says it's all about.  Easier to say than do.  Bacon put his livelihood on the line to tell the truth as he saw it from an insider's viewpoint.  I'll put my money on Bacon's side.

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:31 PM
#142
MGoEntrepreneur
Joined: 06/17/2013
MGoPoints: 113
UCONN V MICHIGAN TIKS

I can't create my own thread (at least I don' think) but UCONN is sending season ticket holders a one time use code for a $120 three pack (Blue Mini Plan Package) of tickets including the Michigan game. The tickets are in section 231 and include Michigan plus any two teams on the schedule. It appears there is no limit to the # of tickets that can be purchased with the unique code. I don't need the code so I am happy to share it with someone that does or to coordinate tickets for a group of people. The ticket price is $120 for 3 + $6 Fee/Ticket (3 Pack) + $5 1st Class Mail (per order) + $7 order charge (per order). The current minimum price is $138 per ticket on SeatCrunch plus whatever fees they add on. 

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:32 PM
#143
maize-blue
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Joined: 01/10/2013
MGoPoints: 30133
Never heard of him.

Never heard of him.

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:32 PM
#144
UMgradMSUdad
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Joined: 07/02/2011
MGoPoints: 9518
So, we have an OP basing his

So, we have an OP basing his opinion on a few comments about the book, then several people jumping on him because omg! John Bacon luvs Michigan! Everything he reports is so totally true and free of any possible bias!

.i agree with those who say let's just wait and read the book, then we can pass judgment (and probably end up right where we started).

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:41 PM
#145
Ron Utah
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Joined: 02/28/2012
MGoPoints: 7427
Really liked 3 and Out

I supported the RR hire.  The guy is an offensive genius that just proved it again at Arizona.  He absolutely sucked at coaching the defense or putting together a coherent defensive strategy, but he was and is a very, very good offensive coach, and most believe him to be a good motivator.

I really liked 3 and Out.  We all know the story of the defensive failures, and that was hinted at (though certainly not thoroughly discussed) in the book.  The reason I liked it was that it gave me the other side of the story--the part I didn't know.

I don't think Bacon is just a money-grubber.  I think he tries to find some truth in his work.  I'm not going to pretend 3 & Out wasn't imbalanced--it was.  But Bacon's access probably showed him something that I also believe to be true: RR is a good coach and a good man, but was in the wrong place and made some stupid choices.  It's probably hard to be critical of someone that you've come to admire, esp. when that preson has already received plenty of criticism.

Don't get me wrong--I was glad to see RR go.  He blew his opportunity and deserved to be fired.  But I like getting both sides of the story, and I'm grateful for Bacon's perspective.  I don't have to agree with everything he writes to like it.

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:47 PM
#146
bacon1431
Joined: 07/26/2008
MGoPoints: 10299
Hopefully he writes a new

Hopefully he writes a new edition of Blue Ice next.

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July 9th, 2013 at 3:48 PM
#147
GoBlueInIowa
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Joined: 03/05/2011
MGoPoints: 5025
Always like hearing from

Always like hearing from Bacon. He seems to have a real love for the university. I will hold judgment on the book until it is actually out. If it ends up being about sports being big business that would not necessarily be news.

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July 9th, 2013 at 6:58 PM
(Reply to #111) #148
Wee-Bey Brice
Wee-Bey Brice's picture
Joined: 05/23/2013
MGoPoints: 6226
Pretty sure that falls under

Pretty sure that falls under politics, and if it doesnt then it needs to..

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July 9th, 2013 at 7:56 PM
#149
jsquigg
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Joined: 09/06/2009
MGoPoints: 6140
I think Bacon is worth a read

I think Bacon is worth a read everytime.  When Michigan wins it's amazing what people will overlook.  When they don't, it's amazing what gets dug up.  I respect Bacon for staying relatively consistent as opposed to all the fair weather fans who don't look deeper than win totals.

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July 10th, 2013 at 11:08 AM
(Reply to #121) #150
Don
Don's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 70402
"A full Bo Schembechler biography"

I know these don't constitute a real biography on Bo, but you might find these SI articles about him from 1970 and 1981 interesting anyhow.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1084291/1/ind...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1124782/1/ind...

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July 9th, 2013 at 10:31 PM
#151
dakotapalm
dakotapalm's picture
Joined: 07/15/2008
MGoPoints: 2267
War and Peace. I heard it ruffled a lot of

War and Peace. I heard it ruffled a lot of feathers in Russia. I have not read it, but I don't like it. Probably won't buy any of Tolstoy's later books.

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July 10th, 2013 at 9:19 AM
#152
Der Alte
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Joined: 07/30/2010
MGoPoints: 1359
Hearsay

The standard hearsay definition is "an out-of-court statement offered to prove the truth of the matters contained therein." Such statements are generally excluded from evidence because they aren't subject to verification by cross-examination. Some exceptions open the door to hearsay, such as dying declarations, admissions against interest, and others, but they're usually narrowly drawn. A jury or other fact-finder is only supposed to hear reliable, tested facts on which to base their findings. After all, they're determining the fate of someone's liberty or property.

John Bacon wasn't involved in a court trial; he didn't need nor did he profess to offer facts that met such a high standard. Sure he offered opinion and maybe even some speculation. So what? You read what he says, and maybe read or listen to the comments of others, and decide for yourself how credible he is. I agree with some here who found Three and Out okay, but without the heft of a definitive, credentialed, searching analysis of why RichRod got canned. Fine --- it wasn't supposed to be the 9/11 Commission Report. It's just his view of what went down based on his research, his interviews (or lack thereof) and his inferences drawn from that research and those interviews.

Will I read his next book? Sure.  

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July 10th, 2013 at 10:38 AM
#153
Don
Don's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 70402
I wonder if the mere mention of John Cooper on 11W

prompts such immediate, passionate, and even crazy commentary over there as do the initials "RR" do on MGoBlog.

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July 10th, 2013 at 12:57 PM
(Reply to #154) #154
Ron Utah
Ron Utah's picture
Joined: 02/28/2012
MGoPoints: 7427
Probably not

Cooper was a winner...except when he played Michigan.

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July 10th, 2013 at 12:30 PM
#155
Mr. Yost
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Joined: 07/25/2011
MGoPoints: -9898289
(No subject)

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