Cam Chancellor of Seattle just destroyed Vernon Davis and forced a dropped pass that was almost a sure touchdown. Has to be one of the best hits I've ever seen. Ref calls a penalty for ''defenseless receiver''. This shit is out of control.
Huge, huge play by the Seattle D.
That right there was awesome.
Win Forever. I love the fans in Seattle.
San Francisco has already had to use two timeouts and had a delay of game. Can you imagine this kind of noise in Michigan Stadium?
And just got another.
If Michigan ever encloses the end zones, which I think they will eventually, it could get that loud. Perhaps louder. Who knows?
want to play the Seahawks right now - they look good!
Another shit call in my opinion, no fun in this league
These personal fouls are really ruining the hitting aspect of football...
I think the tackling style of many is ruining the hitting aspect of football. For some reason it's better to make a big impact than it is to actually make the tackle. More people tackle either facing away from the offensive player in order to throw their shoulder into them, go too high, or lead with their helmet, or a combination of the three. A good tackle should involve hitting just above the waist, squared up and facing the offensive player, wrapping your arms around the player, and seeing the player you're hitting by putting your facemask in their torso. The culture of making a big hit has become more important than recording a tackle for some reason that I don't understand.
I couldn't agree more. The big hit culture has also contributed to more players getting neck injuries from leading with their head down and it provides a poor example for young kids watching.
I get that tackling form is somewhat of a lost art lately, but I'm talking more about breaking up passes.
How would you have defended the play above, keeping in mind it's Vernon FREAKing Davis?! I get that it's a pretty vicious hit but what else is he to do, get curb stomped himself by Davis but making sure it's "clean"??
You described the hit on this play perfectly, with the exception that he didn't wrap up. There was nothing wrong with this hit. Had he wrapped up, they still would have called the penalty. If this is a penalty, there is no reason to even try to break up passes with contact anymore.
It's not the "big hit culture" that is the problem, really...it's the evolution of players over the past 30 years with the real focus on strength/conditioning and speed.
I'll give you an example:
1978 Pittsburgh Steelers Superbowl Champions
Safety Donnie Shell 5'11 190
2012 Seattle Seahawks
Cam Chancellor 6'3 232
At his combine, Kam Chancellor ran a 4.62/40 and did 22 reps at 225 lbs. which is very respectable for a safety. Donnie Shell's reported 40 time was also 4.6.
The problem is that the field hasn't gotten any larger while the players certainly have become larger, physically stronger and capable of closing faster and delivering far more significant shots. It's not a "big hit culture" that is the problem it's the evolution of a better and better athlete competing on the same size field.
You don't have to tell me about strength & conditioning. I coach at a Division IAA football S&C program. There is no doubt that players are getting bigger, faster, and stronger. But, just as the defender gets bigger so does the offensive player. So a larger accepter of the hit should be more apt to handle the force. Also, although a faster defender will produce more force since force equals mass times acceleration, speed is on both sides of the ball, so the offensive player with more speed should be more capable of avoiding a hit. Anyways, I don't believe that is the biggest factor because it's goes both ways.
In regards to Chadler I think he is well above the norm for safeties in the NFL. If for example you look at the 2011 All-Pro team the safeties are Troy Polamalu (5'10" 207), Eric Weddle (5'11" 200), Ed Reed (5'11" 205), Earl Thomas (5'10" 202). I think it's the execption not the norm to have safeties over 6'1" and 215 lbs.
In regards to the big hit culture I still can't deny what my eyes tell me. In the past I simply didn't see this many hits going high, not wrapping up, leading with the shoulder, or leading with the helmet. I think the expanded coverage, popularity of the sport, internet videos, etc. have all played an impact on the big hit culture. Players today are simply more aware of what they look like, what their perception is, etc. In a similar way that recruiting coverage has changed the way high school kids act today, the same is true of big hits in the NFL. It's a cultural thing.
I generally agree with you except on one point. That a larger player should be able to handle the force may be true on the hit itself but not when that player subsequently hits the ground - the greater mass and speed he is carrying will then work against him, especially when his neck and head slam down.
I'm not in any way saying it should or should not have been called but the play in the OP is a good example - if that hit were lower his head would not have shot back with the same force.
In the nfl at least, I feel like you never see those kind of calls in college.
... but he looked defeneless to me. It's not a shit call. You can consider it a shit rule, but that's different. I personally feel like rules put in place that reduce the likelihood of someone being seriously injured are well intended and worth trying.
I understand the no hitting any part of the body with your helmet part of the rule, but how can you say a player can't lay his shoulder into someone? That's absurd.
I think it's the defensiveless thing. If you look at the reciever in the pic he is open...meaning there's a clear path to his torso, head, & neck with no means to protect himself. The defender on the other hand comes running and turns away from the target, drops his shoulder, and braces himself with his other arm. It's just putting the offensive player in a really bad and unprotected position. I'm OK if a defender does that by either going a little lower or if the hit comes from the offensive player's side vs head on. But, when the offensive player is opened up and the defender is sideways dropping a shoulder and going high it's just a bad scenario for the reciever. If Davis didn't likely outweigh the deferder by 30 pounds he would probably be even more severely injured.
I just feel like it's kinda hard to aim your hit when you're going full speed at someone
I totally agree. If you're playing defense you're just doing whatever you can to try dislodge the ball there, right? And, you're looking at a big dude like Davis and knowing you have come hard and protect yourself as well. But, that's why it's a judgement call. Intent may have something to do with too idk. It's not the worst example by the defender...it's no James Harrison. That's kinda why I think it's a cultural thing I don't like. It's too much about "me" (making a big hit and everyone looks at me) versus "team" (recording the tackle regardless of how it looks). Plus, I think these hits will only get worse if they don't police it IMO.
however annoying it might be as a fan and as a DB that a hit like that gets flagged...that hit and almost every hit like it ends up getting the defenseless player concussed.
and it is becoming more clear that concussions are damn dangerous, and rules need to be in place at every level to deter unnecessary plays that result in getting people concussed.
It is true, but even though they've made it a penalty it'll still happen. It's impossible to try and stop it. It's been a part of football for years. I'd like to see Goodell try and answer the question "How do you expect the corner/safety to break up passes if every receiver is pretty much defenseless?''
You could go for the ball instead of trying to take off the head of the player.
He didn't get there in time to go for the ball. If he goes for the ball its a touchdown. How can you tell a defender to not hit a guy and give up a tpuchdown? Thats just not allowing people to play defense, at a certain point you have to let them play with the risk of concussions or stop playing football. A lot of research is starting to show the small hits that offensive and defensive lineman take on the head while blocking is just as dangerous as the big hits. Are we going to eliminiate blocking from the sport and go 7 on 7? I understand wanting to protect players but a certain point you have to realize football is a dangerous sport, if you want to allow defense to exist you have to live with the consequences. If guys go low you are blowing out knees and ending carreers. This was a hit from a shoulder to a chest, you can't do it better if you are trying to prevent a completion and stop the touchdown. If this hit is too dangerous you might as well start playing flag football because you just can't stop a passing attack anymore.
Did you see the play where the settle defender went low to tackle Manningham? The result was Manningham getting his knee blown out. I would absolutely hate being a defensive player in todays NFL, a safety's job, if he cannot get to the receiver in time to make a play on the ball is to seperate the ball from said receiver... which is exactly what he did.
To me, 5 years ago that play would have been perfectly legal and a textbook hit by a safety.
Are you mad about the ability to appeal or that they worked the system?
I think an appeals process is necessary, because false positives do happen. But I definitely agree with you that it should be an expedited process. If they're cheating then they shouldn't be able to prolong the process just to play extra games.
It's good to see former UM players Manningham, Goodwin, & Branch all playing tonight!
Mike Martin sacked Aaron Rodgers today and Leon Hall returned an INT for a TD. Not to mention Chad vs. Brady.
They should penalize the qb for putting the receiver in a defenseless position.
Fuck yeah, go hawks!!
When I was a kid the receiver getting drilled was the QBs fault for putting the receiver in that position, not the DB making a play and getting penalized for it
Thoughts and prayers with manningham right now
I think that's the end of Manningham for the year.
in the NFL. Jake Long, David Molk and Steve Hutchinson all joining Tim Jamison on IR. And this one really hurts.
That doesn't look good.
Damn feel bad for Mario.
Mario just got his leg/knee screwed up.
That looked really bad. Looks like an ACL...hopefully not worse
If the gif above really did result in a penalty for hitting a defenseless player I am now convinced that receivers shouldn't be allowed to jump to make a catch. If the defender wrapped his arms I think it would have resulted in a similar hit. What was he supposed to do? Wait for the receiver to come down and push him out of bounds?
The ravens got penalized for blocking a defensless player that was chasing rice from behind, its getting to the point where I won't be surprised if a player gets penalized for tackling from behind because it was unfair to the offensive player since he didn't see him coming.
Why are there so many blowouts this year.
So that players don't get called for hitting a "defenseless player" let's eliminate pass plays.
As a presumably grown ass adult possibly use that phrase without cringing at what it means?
irrelevant to me
I have to agree with the OP on the hit. The DB didn't launch himself, he didn't lead with his helmet, hell, it looks to me like the only reason the hit looks as bad as it does is because of the incredible inertia Vernon Davis brings with him. The safety came in under control and laid his shoulder pads into the ball and separated man from ball. That looks textbook to me, and as safe as a hit in the NFL can be.