"BWC is as talented or more talented than Mike Martin"
"Black and Roh are more talented than Van Bergen and Heinenger"
Are you the Fred Jackson of defensive linemen?
"BWC is as talented or more talented than Mike Martin"
"Black and Roh are more talented than Van Bergen and Heinenger"
Are you the Fred Jackson of defensive linemen?
The first one is a bit of a stretch, but the second is not. BWC has size and athleticism that MM did not, Martin had most everything else though, so is that ends up being a wash I'd be happy.
But I don't see why the Roh-Black combo isn't as good as RVB-Heininger. Sure, they're smaller, but certainly more athletic.
Also - we probably have more depth this year than last. Last season, the only back ups we ever saw were BWC on occasion and Black at WDE. This year, I think we'll have slightly more rotation on the DL with Brink or Heitzman at SDE, Pipkins and Ash at the tackles and (hopefully) Clark at WDE.
I think we will be better rushing the passer overall due to the increase in speed, as long as they can get used to the new positions (mostly black but still will affect roh) and the double teams they will face. However I am fearful this will weaken the rushing defense against the wisconsins/alabamas of the world. Overall starwise they will be "more talented" but they are pretty inexperienced as a group, I wouldn't be suprised to see them struggle early on and end up dominate in the second half once everyone gets comfortable
But what measures of athleticism are you using other than "is taller and heavier" that would lead you to believe that BWC is more athletic than Martin? Martin is stronger, faster and quicker than BWC. I know you generally disagree with what the OP said, but that first claim is much more of a stretch than I think you're giving him credit for.
Your dictionary must have a different definition of athleticism than mine.
Mike Martin won a state championship in his first year ever wrestling, and was college football's strongest man last year. I don't think we can say with even remote certainty that Campbell is a better athlete.
Uhhh. Yeah. I agree with Mr. Barron. As a senior in high school, BWC was more highly touted than Martin. He has not shown in the past three years he can sniff Martin's cleats. I think BWC is primed to prove himself, but that statement is vastly overrated. Roh and Black both are changing positions and we don't know how they are going to react. The defensive line is one giant question mark. How anyone can honestly say they think they will be better is drinking the maize-n-blue kool-aid. Of course the coaches are going to talk up their guys. It's coachspeak. It doesn't mean anything.
Also, the gap between Clark and Beyer is being vastly overstated. Beyer can play. He got more playing time than Clark last year. Clark might make more big plays, but Beyer might be more consistent. Losing Clark sucks, but being 'stuck' with Beyer isn't a bad thing.
BWC is a little bit straonger than Woodley and Martin combined and just a bit faster than Denard....pause....He's pretty good.
i guess i missed something. also, i think you're being a bit optimistic.
It was in one of the CTK videos.
Its at 2:09 in the clip!....
Pee Wee can really move for someone that size.
Thank you, I was just about to do the same
FYI to above poster: Pipkins v Schofield match takes place around the 2:07 mark, but of course you will want to watch the whole thing.
It wasn't that great. He stood up too much and did get pushed back...
compare it to the next clip of Q Washington, and I think the difference is stark
I agree, but being better than a guy that is better suited for offensive guard probably shouldn't be the measuring stick. I think Pipkins will be really good when it is all said and done and will probably play quite a bit this year, but there will be growing pains.
still my favorite countdown to kick off.... great seeing the 1on1 up close
That Peewee's whole career will involve him pretty much just facing off against guards and centers. That's sort of how the NT position works. Which means you are making the other poster's point for him.
No I'm saying Q is basically a man without a position and probably would be better suited as a guard.
It all starts and ends with how BWC and Black preform on the interior.
You could be cautiously optimistic and hope that they can replicate last years efficiency, but to replace Mike Martin and Ryan Van Bergen and claim superiority would be overdoing it IMO.
Should change your title to "can be better" not "is better". And I agree with you. The ceiling is higher this year IMO
And where is this video of Pipkins you speak of? Please link
I 100% Agree, Please Link.
I would love to see this if its true!
There seemed to be a hint of "Freshman Hype" could be related to the underperformance of our upperclassman at the NYC Alumni Event last night, but PeeWee handling our offensive lineman would (in my mind) alleviate any concerns!
Im just looking for proof!
Thanks for the info though.
You are right on the title change, but I am not going to change it now, because it would bastardize the context of some of the posts.
I think the video he's referencing is one of the countdown to kickoff's from a couple days ago. I think it was first day of pads, 1-on-1's..... Kind of recall PeeWee in there. Not sure if I came away as impressed, but he is athletic.
Unfortunately, No. BWC had more potential than Mike Martin coming out of HS, but he is by no means more talented when comparing the two going into their senior year. Martin was much more talented. Also, Van Bergen is better than Black and Roh, granted Roh does have a chance to be better. This is making it sound like I think our line is bad, which it isn't, it will be okay. I just think that our line last year was better than this years will be.
Not sure if you can come out and say those things definitively.
Like what others have said, they all have higher ceilings than their predecessors. Especially if you consider RVB to Black. Black is going to bring more speed to the pass rush than RVB.
I think you would compare Black to Heininger, not RVB, but your point still certainly stands, in fact probably more so.
Roh is taking over for RVB, and I think his ceiling is also higher. Even at WDE, you have Beyer starting for Roh, and although that sounds like a drop off, Beyer is better suited for that position than Roh was, I think. Beyer won't be as strong against the run as Roh was, but we have three returning starters at LB behind him to make up for that. He'll bring a better pass rush than Roh did.
I am revising expectations upwards for the season. What have I got to lose, after all?
BWC, and Brink is a solid line-up. With 3 DL coaches and those players, I'm not too worried about the DL. I'm also not too worried about the OL. However, I am worried about our receivers, although the emergence of Darboh has alleviated my concerns, somewhat.
Can we formally accept:
as a new mgomeme? I laugh everytime I read that on here. Not to say it isn't true, but it just gets me every time somebody pulls that statement out again. Sorry hart20, I don't mean to be a jerk. Just had to ask.
I disagree that older versions of Roh, Black, and Campbell along with the addition of Pipkins makes up for the loss of three starters along a very disruptive front. If Campbell goes from non-factor to All-Big 10, then I would agree that this line could be better, but I'll believe that when I see it.
Pipkins may be ready physically, but he's still going to have a long, long way to go until he understands what he's supposed to be doing down-to-down. If he doesn't, Alabama's line will make him look pretty bad.
your sig is a dead link.
And another piece of my early 20s died.
By all accounts Beyer was actually beating out Frank Clark for the starting spot before the legal stuff. Don't really know if Clark will come back and take the position away from Beyer or not, but adding him to the two-deep would be nice.
That's fine, but since none of us have any info on this, that's nothing more than a feeling.
Pick him up from jail, and make him sit out one series. That would be a way to get him in. It would take a total jackass that doesn't give a shit about the players, but it is an option. Oh wait, sorry I was having a Sparty flashback.
Yes, but he wouldn't be the first person charges of something without getting convicted of it, right? Isn't this the same charge Marvin Robinson had last year? And nothing came of it. I'm just saying, a lot of times these things end up being a lot less of a deal once all the facts come out. I have a feeling that if he really busted into a dorm room and ganked a laptop he'd be off the team and in not-Ann Arbor anymore.
The fact that he's still around suggests to me that this will all come to pass.
The video footage is from "The Men Who Stare At Goats." If you haven't seen this movie, stop whatever you are doing RIGHT NOW and go watch this film. It is absolutely hilarious.
BWC is no where near Mike Martin. That is a frustrating statement you made comparing them. You think Mike Martin was not athletic? You think Big Will is more athletic?
Everything else has a chance to be true, but Mike Martin was arguably one of the best defensive tackle we have had since ....... and your saying BWC, a guy that was not good enough to start until his senior year, is better?
I will never say BWC is better than Martin until he proves it ! Martin pulled so many double teams it opened up a lot for the rest of the line, and when Campbell starts doing that, then we will see !!
Mike Martin was an elite player. If Will Campbell were to outdo his senior year, he'd be bordering on Suh level production.
but I agree with the overall sentiment of your post. suh was on a whole different level than even martin but I would love if BWC came anywhere close to either of them this season
As far as DL....we might be a little stronger in size and all...but I dont expect as many plays from them as we got from MM/RVB last year.
However, I truly think our LB's will take a huge step forward and more than carry the load this season.
WR is also a position I'm not really worried about and I also think that DG is going to play a lot more WR then the coaches have let on to the public. I wouldn't be surprised if RR, Gallon and DG are starting against Bama.
Brennen Beyer, Keith Heitzman, and Craig Roh standing with Nathan Brink.
RVB compared to Jibreel Black we downgraded in size about 10 pounds or so, but Black is shorter, too, so might get slightly better leverage, and might be more athletic, but at DE we are definitely upgrading over last year in size and strength.
Anyone else shocked by the lack of Derrick Green related posts, when there's a ton of new and relevant info out on him?
Care to fill us in?
Martin and Van Bergen were senior multi-year starters who were so savvy that by late in the season (specifically against Ohio) they were running their own stunts, etc. BWC and Black are first-year starters, Black at a new position. Martin was such a tremendous penetrator that they came up with more big short-yardage stops than any Michigan defense in years. I can't see this year's group matching last year's. If they stay healthy enough to gel, they have a lot of potential. But early on in particular, they may struggle.
that belongs on a t-shirt
It's on a T-shirt. My wife gave it to me.
Weird, she gave one to me too...
But not total question marks, right? It's not like they're being replaced by guys who've never seen PT before. Both Black and BWC saw a good amount of time as rotation guys the last couple years. They're first year starters, but they aren't all that green.
Black is making a pretty significant position change. He is athletic, but I'm not sure if he is best suited for playing inside.
Hoke isn't going to say anything racy, but he keeps alluding to the increase in talent provided by this years freshman class. God bless RVB and Heinenger but they aren't physically as talented as the kids Hoke is bringing in. This isn't a shot at Carr and RR, but they weren't recruiting to the level of what Hoke is.
I give BWC a 1/10 chance to be what Martin was last year and much less than that to be better. Roh and Black could very well be better on the interior than what we had last year, but at the same time they are both very unproven at that position and could just as easily bust. I wouldn't be surprised to see one of those two not work out, thus we struggle a bit at that position early before Pipkins comes on strong the second half of the season. I am very optimistic about our end play, I think there is a very good chance we are better there.
Overall, yeah our line could be better, chances are they fall slightly short but do a respectable job. The real story will be the improvement of our LB core and secondary though.
Much better with the experience of being under Mattison longer.
What? No. I never even considered the possibility. No one stands out to me on this Dline the way Mike Martin or Brandon Graham did.
I don't think that there is any way that the D-Line is actually better than last year. The good news is, with practically everyone back from the LB's and secondary, if they continue to improve, the D-Line could at least SEEM to be about as good, becasue they won't have to contribute so much.
BWC's second year at the same position, with the same DC. Given the situations the kid was in for his freshman and sophomore years, if he has a shot at living up to his potential this would be the year. Mike Martin left big shoes to fill, but Hoke and Mattison will extract everything that can be gotten out of BWC. Maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised.
In case anyone is interested, the average season production of the 2011 defensive line in a few basic categories is as follows:
- Individually, the front four averaged 20 solo tackles and 25 assisted tackles. (max. 25 solo tackles and 44 assisted tackles)
- Each player averaged 8 tackles for loss with an average of 33 yards (max. 12.5 TFL for 55 total yards)
- Each player averaged 4 sacks with an average of 23 sack yards (max. 5.5 tackles for 35 total yards)
Essentially, this would be the approximate benchmark for this year's defensive line. If they can be that disruptive and effective up front, then they are basically "as good" as last year's line. I will say, however, that with the relative athleticism of this line and the fact that there is still some experience starting here (counting guys who saw playing time in rotation), as others have pointed out, it might be possible for them to at least come within earshot of this sort of performance.
You can make predictions, but it's way too early to claim they will be better! I hope for the best.
BWC is as talented or more talented than Mike Martin? Come on, man. Martin was always a consistent producer throughout his career, and BWC has done next to nothing. No offense to BWC, but its premature to put him in the same league as Martin right now.
I do think BWC has the potential to be better, but until he proves it on the field, he doesn't deserve to be equated with, or elevated above Martin.
This Kool-Aid tastes so good.
Roh is on par with Van Bergen.
Campbell is worse than Martin.
Black is probably a slight upgrade over Heininger.
Beyer is probably on par with Roh.
So...is Michigan's DL better? No. Is it a huge dropoff? Eh...maybe. Martin was the key player, so the dropoff there is the one that should concern us.
I think we will have the best defense in the big ten this year. We have one of the best coordinators in the game, not just the NCAA. The fundamentals are down and the development will continue. Some of our second year players are going to take huge leaps. I'm extremely excited for this season and the defensive line. I think it moves on and even improves.
I like BWC and hope he excels on the field but he is no Mike Martin. They're two different defensive lineman in my oppinion. Mike Martin showed signs and flashes of being a dominant defensive lineman his first two years; BWC has not. BWC will be an effective run-stuffer but his lack of strength and quickness off the line leads me to believe he'll be good but not dominant.
I don't think there is really too much of a question about BWC and MM as many people have already pointed out how great of an athlete MM was his senior year and how disruptive he was at nose. However, I also think that the OP and many other people are underestimating the impact that RVB had in the game. He was not as pysically talented but I recal from several different sources hearing about his intelligence and his leadership. MM himself said that RVB would call out the plays that our opponents were about to run because he watched so much game film and Greg Mattison even trusted him enough to allow him to call out stunts on the line. That kind of football smarts can go a long way to improving production. This is especially true on the line where communication is critical. I am not sure with the inexperience on this years line if anyone can really fill that role for the team.
in the SDSU game last year. I was impressed.
I'm glad to see it looks like Pip will be a stud, but I have to remind myself to pump the breaks everytime I think that his first game, in all liklihood, will be against the cast of All-Americans that is the Alabama offensive line.
how this DL compares to last season. I think by the end of the year they will be a much better group than at the beginning. I hope they improve enough to dominate the B1G!!! It will be great to shut teams down again!
Did you wake up in a crack house this morning?
Let's revisit this topic Sept. 2nd.
I think it is doubtful the DL will be better, but it is possible. So much hinges on BWC. The rest are probably a slight uptick from last year. I am very dubious that Big Will is going to be an improvement over Martin. But with his physical attributes, it is possible.
this is exactly why you don't do drugs
I doubt that this year's D-Line will be better, or as good as last years line. I don't think it will be as catastophic as some people think. I'm really looking forward to the next few years, when Pipkins, Wormley, etc. get their playing time. I'm excited to see Pipkins play this year too, even if most of his time will come against our less talented opponents.
One thing BWC has done in games fairly well is get his hands up in the passing lanes very well. I feel like Mike Martin never had that many batted passes but BWC did a good job at that.
Ok, I looked it up. MM never had one batted pass. BWC has had 4 in 3 years. 1 last year against Purdue, 2011 Bowling Green, 2010 Delaware State and Wisconsin.
I guess that's not as many as I had remembered. Maybe just because he's tall and has gigantic hands he covers a lot of airspace. This is my hypothesis.
As strange as this sounds, that may not be a good thing (more batted passes).
Last year we got most of our defensive production from the interior linemen, this year we might get most of it from our ends. We lost our anchor in the middle, but we upgraded slightly across the rest of the line, and with this being the second year for these players in the system, and Demens, and Ryan improving, and Morgan not being a true freshman now, I think our TFL's, hurries, and sacks could increase over last years numbers. BWC may not be Mike Martin, but it might not matter...
The thread should have been. "Is it possible this years defensive line will be better than the tire fire that some were fearing at the end of last year"
To compare Will Campbell to Mike Martin at this point is simply insane. Comparison would be on a scale of 1 to 10 based on the data we've seen with our eyes during games vs the magical maize preseason dust.
NT Martin 8.5 vs Campbell 4
SDE RVB 6.5 vs Roh 5
DT Heininger 4 vs Black 4
WDE Roh 5 vs Beyer 3
11 wins 24 to 16.
Unless Pipkins is Vince Woolfolk II. I think minimum regression on the D line is the best outcome.
"Vince Woolfolk II."
My mind is blown.
Well, since he is the son of Zoltan, maybe Wilfork had a name change and told him about in training camp. Or maybe Butch changed his first name, but he would have been skinny for a nose tackle. Ditto Troy. I'm sure there is a logical explnation out there.
Well, this post has taken an ironic turn for the worse this morning :(
I blame this thread. That is all.
If your asking if it CAN be better than the answer is yes. It's pretty clear to me based on the increased performance from the DLine last season that our staff is capable of coaching up players to a whole new level. It's difinitely possible, however it's not something to expect. Still, no one expected last year, so my hopes are high.
This D line is different than last years but, so far so good, I think they will end up better than team 130 whatever was.