Care to fill us in?
Care to fill us in?
Martin and Van Bergen were senior multi-year starters who were so savvy that by late in the season (specifically against Ohio) they were running their own stunts, etc. BWC and Black are first-year starters, Black at a new position. Martin was such a tremendous penetrator that they came up with more big short-yardage stops than any Michigan defense in years. I can't see this year's group matching last year's. If they stay healthy enough to gel, they have a lot of potential. But early on in particular, they may struggle.
that belongs on a t-shirt
It's on a T-shirt. My wife gave it to me.
Weird, she gave one to me too...
But not total question marks, right? It's not like they're being replaced by guys who've never seen PT before. Both Black and BWC saw a good amount of time as rotation guys the last couple years. They're first year starters, but they aren't all that green.
Black is making a pretty significant position change. He is athletic, but I'm not sure if he is best suited for playing inside.
Hoke isn't going to say anything racy, but he keeps alluding to the increase in talent provided by this years freshman class. God bless RVB and Heinenger but they aren't physically as talented as the kids Hoke is bringing in. This isn't a shot at Carr and RR, but they weren't recruiting to the level of what Hoke is.
I give BWC a 1/10 chance to be what Martin was last year and much less than that to be better. Roh and Black could very well be better on the interior than what we had last year, but at the same time they are both very unproven at that position and could just as easily bust. I wouldn't be surprised to see one of those two not work out, thus we struggle a bit at that position early before Pipkins comes on strong the second half of the season. I am very optimistic about our end play, I think there is a very good chance we are better there.
Overall, yeah our line could be better, chances are they fall slightly short but do a respectable job. The real story will be the improvement of our LB core and secondary though.
Much better with the experience of being under Mattison longer.
What? No. I never even considered the possibility. No one stands out to me on this Dline the way Mike Martin or Brandon Graham did.
I don't think that there is any way that the D-Line is actually better than last year. The good news is, with practically everyone back from the LB's and secondary, if they continue to improve, the D-Line could at least SEEM to be about as good, becasue they won't have to contribute so much.
BWC's second year at the same position, with the same DC. Given the situations the kid was in for his freshman and sophomore years, if he has a shot at living up to his potential this would be the year. Mike Martin left big shoes to fill, but Hoke and Mattison will extract everything that can be gotten out of BWC. Maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised.
In case anyone is interested, the average season production of the 2011 defensive line in a few basic categories is as follows:
- Individually, the front four averaged 20 solo tackles and 25 assisted tackles. (max. 25 solo tackles and 44 assisted tackles)
- Each player averaged 8 tackles for loss with an average of 33 yards (max. 12.5 TFL for 55 total yards)
- Each player averaged 4 sacks with an average of 23 sack yards (max. 5.5 tackles for 35 total yards)
Essentially, this would be the approximate benchmark for this year's defensive line. If they can be that disruptive and effective up front, then they are basically "as good" as last year's line. I will say, however, that with the relative athleticism of this line and the fact that there is still some experience starting here (counting guys who saw playing time in rotation), as others have pointed out, it might be possible for them to at least come within earshot of this sort of performance.
You can make predictions, but it's way too early to claim they will be better! I hope for the best.
BWC is as talented or more talented than Mike Martin? Come on, man. Martin was always a consistent producer throughout his career, and BWC has done next to nothing. No offense to BWC, but its premature to put him in the same league as Martin right now.
I do think BWC has the potential to be better, but until he proves it on the field, he doesn't deserve to be equated with, or elevated above Martin.
This Kool-Aid tastes so good.
Roh is on par with Van Bergen.
Campbell is worse than Martin.
Black is probably a slight upgrade over Heininger.
Beyer is probably on par with Roh.
So...is Michigan's DL better? No. Is it a huge dropoff? Eh...maybe. Martin was the key player, so the dropoff there is the one that should concern us.
I think we will have the best defense in the big ten this year. We have one of the best coordinators in the game, not just the NCAA. The fundamentals are down and the development will continue. Some of our second year players are going to take huge leaps. I'm extremely excited for this season and the defensive line. I think it moves on and even improves.
But i think there's a good chance it's ok, which could give is a better overall d.
I like BWC and hope he excels on the field but he is no Mike Martin. They're two different defensive lineman in my oppinion. Mike Martin showed signs and flashes of being a dominant defensive lineman his first two years; BWC has not. BWC will be an effective run-stuffer but his lack of strength and quickness off the line leads me to believe he'll be good but not dominant.
I don't think there is really too much of a question about BWC and MM as many people have already pointed out how great of an athlete MM was his senior year and how disruptive he was at nose. However, I also think that the OP and many other people are underestimating the impact that RVB had in the game. He was not as pysically talented but I recal from several different sources hearing about his intelligence and his leadership. MM himself said that RVB would call out the plays that our opponents were about to run because he watched so much game film and Greg Mattison even trusted him enough to allow him to call out stunts on the line. That kind of football smarts can go a long way to improving production. This is especially true on the line where communication is critical. I am not sure with the inexperience on this years line if anyone can really fill that role for the team.
in the SDSU game last year. I was impressed.
I'm glad to see it looks like Pip will be a stud, but I have to remind myself to pump the breaks everytime I think that his first game, in all liklihood, will be against the cast of All-Americans that is the Alabama offensive line.
how this DL compares to last season. I think by the end of the year they will be a much better group than at the beginning. I hope they improve enough to dominate the B1G!!! It will be great to shut teams down again!
Did you wake up in a crack house this morning?
Let's revisit this topic Sept. 2nd.
I think it is doubtful the DL will be better, but it is possible. So much hinges on BWC. The rest are probably a slight uptick from last year. I am very dubious that Big Will is going to be an improvement over Martin. But with his physical attributes, it is possible.
this is exactly why you don't do drugs
I doubt that this year's D-Line will be better, or as good as last years line. I don't think it will be as catastophic as some people think. I'm really looking forward to the next few years, when Pipkins, Wormley, etc. get their playing time. I'm excited to see Pipkins play this year too, even if most of his time will come against our less talented opponents.
One thing BWC has done in games fairly well is get his hands up in the passing lanes very well. I feel like Mike Martin never had that many batted passes but BWC did a good job at that.
Ok, I looked it up. MM never had one batted pass. BWC has had 4 in 3 years. 1 last year against Purdue, 2011 Bowling Green, 2010 Delaware State and Wisconsin.
I guess that's not as many as I had remembered. Maybe just because he's tall and has gigantic hands he covers a lot of airspace. This is my hypothesis.
As strange as this sounds, that may not be a good thing (more batted passes).
Last year we got most of our defensive production from the interior linemen, this year we might get most of it from our ends. We lost our anchor in the middle, but we upgraded slightly across the rest of the line, and with this being the second year for these players in the system, and Demens, and Ryan improving, and Morgan not being a true freshman now, I think our TFL's, hurries, and sacks could increase over last years numbers. BWC may not be Mike Martin, but it might not matter...
The thread should have been. "Is it possible this years defensive line will be better than the tire fire that some were fearing at the end of last year"
To compare Will Campbell to Mike Martin at this point is simply insane. Comparison would be on a scale of 1 to 10 based on the data we've seen with our eyes during games vs the magical maize preseason dust.
NT Martin 8.5 vs Campbell 4
SDE RVB 6.5 vs Roh 5
DT Heininger 4 vs Black 4
WDE Roh 5 vs Beyer 3
11 wins 24 to 16.
Unless Pipkins is Vince Woolfolk II. I think minimum regression on the D line is the best outcome.
"Vince Woolfolk II."
My mind is blown.
Well, since he is the son of Zoltan, maybe Wilfork had a name change and told him about in training camp. Or maybe Butch changed his first name, but he would have been skinny for a nose tackle. Ditto Troy. I'm sure there is a logical explnation out there.
Well, this post has taken an ironic turn for the worse this morning :(
I blame this thread. That is all.
If your asking if it CAN be better than the answer is yes. It's pretty clear to me based on the increased performance from the DLine last season that our staff is capable of coaching up players to a whole new level. It's difinitely possible, however it's not something to expect. Still, no one expected last year, so my hopes are high.
This D line is different than last years but, so far so good, I think they will end up better than team 130 whatever was.