my point. Sell the sizzle, as much as possible, because the steak isn't filet. Pretty much hamburger...
landing spot. will be interesting to see how he does.
my point. Sell the sizzle, as much as possible, because the steak isn't filet. Pretty much hamburger...
The traditionalists didn't want a steak to begin with -- they wanted hamburger. A nice Knight's half-pound patty. They wanted a coach who is part of, not bigger than, the program. A coach who owes his success to Michigan.
It's just two different ways of looking at the world -- program first, or coach first. I'm OK with the program-first mentality, and if you've been a Michigan fan for a while you can't be surprised that it won out.
Awesome post man.
Michigan football, having grown bored with its usual diet, entered into a brief romance with nouvelle quisine. However, finding the new stuff unpalatable if not downright inedible, it decided that a ham sandwich and a bag of chips was pretty good eatin' after all.
Maybe we are all learning from the mistakes of the RR era. Whether you liked him or not it is hard to argue that he wouldn't have had a better chance of success if he had better support. Now that we have a new coach, we SHOULD learn from that last experience and do a better job on the whole of supporting him. If RR supporters want to see Hoke shit on like RR was I would think that they are missing the boat. I say we should all get behind Hoke like we should have gotten behind RR. Lets move foward.
...that some of the people who were undermining Coach Rodriguez are some of the same people who are now congratulating Hoke. I don't like that part.
The really frustrating thing to me during the Rodriguez years was that we heard a lot about the lack of support and the backbiting of "factions," especially letterwinners from the Carr era, but we never really got the names of individuals. There were the dumbass public exceptions, of course; Braylon Edwards was the head of that class.
The pro-Rodriguez insurgency didn't have any trouble making their names known, even when they went to excess, i.e., Rick Leach. I just have this simmering distrust and low regard for the guys who never supported Rich Rodriguez the way that we are now being told to support Brady Hoke.
That's a fair criticism, particularly with respect to anyone who was actively trying to undermine RR. On the flip side, I do believe it's human nature to actively support people that you have a personal connection with, especially in light of the apparent need to show support and solidarity given the fractures in the fan base and the loss of the "Great Unifying Coaching Candidate" (hereinafter referred to as GUCC) to the 49ers.
Not everyone showing active support for BH now was previously actively undermining RR. And it is human nature for some people to be silent and sit on the sidelines for someone they don't really know personally.
There are some who may be guilty of doing bad things to get what they want in terms of this coaching change. But there are also some who are genuinely happy, with "good" motivations and "right" reasons, that BH is the coach at Michigan.
but I think it's natural for the former players to initially be skeptical of someone running a style of program very different from the one they knew and loved, and natural to jump to support a coach you played for and trust. For a lot of these guys, the jury seemed to be out until RR won the big games, and Hoke hasn't needed to jump that hurdle.
The only reason I say it quite possibly isn't fair, and not that it is, is that some of these players may support a defense first philosophy, as opposed to explosive offense, and then I wouldn't call it nepotism, or inbred coach syndrome, but a difference in philosophy of success.
I'd like to know who you think tried to undermine RR?
I've said it before in other threads, but former players didn't have some agenda to get RR fired.
We had "team meetings" with RR as a show of solidarity and support. We had the Chili and Cornbread deal each year and continued the "tunnel of champions". And every practice was open to former players if they chose to attend.
Sure there were some strong opinions among the group about the way the hiring was handled by Martin, just like there was this time with Brandon. (You should see the one thread that's been going on for a while now on LinkedIn). Yikes! However, in the end, when Hoke was hired, we naturally threw our support behind the coach and the program. Nobody sent out an email that stated "stop the bickering and support your new coach." It just happened natrually. We all want the team to win. Some people like the hire and some don't. Regardless, we are all throwing our support behind Hoke (like we did with RR). The support for RR started to wane as the defense started to suck.
You have mad love for Hoke. That's your choice, but the hearts and sugarplums dancing around in your head are impairing your judgement.
Where was the support from the old players over the past few years? Some have been coming out and saying that they didn't feel welcome. Considering that it is on record that players such as Marlin Jackson, Victor Hobson, Jamar Adams, Braylon Edwards, James Hall, Larry Foote, and Tyrone Wheatley have all spent time working with the Michigan strength and conditioning staff under RR's term, I argue that this is an absolute farce.
There was a displeasure shared by some of the old staff and players that Michigan football was headed in a different direction under RR, which isn't that surprising given that there was an openly expressed sentiment that the brand of football that existed when they were at U of M was stagnant and bland. With that said, they didn't have to agree with the new direction, but not offering support over the last 3 years only to come out of the woodwork now to support one of their guys doesn't exactly sit well with me.
When times were really tough and a shitstorm of media frenzy about RR. Why didnt they come out and support the program, the coach and the team then????
I understand your point, but what I don't get is why to get riled up about it now. What's done is done. We won't be erasing the last three years anytime soon, and Rich Rodriguez will not be coming back. It's time to start thinking about 2011. When is the Spring Game?
there are people out there who can't express their love for Hoke without bringing up RR or the past three years. If I feel that their sentiment implies something that I disagree with, I'm going to respond.
I look forward to you lecturing them on "what's done is done."
You're right. It's irritating to see Hoke and RR attached like that. But it's unfair to Hoke just as it is to Rodriguez. All I'm saying is the RR supporters who complain that he never had a chance because of the division of the fans and attacks from the media (which I agree is true) are setting up a similar situation for Hoke.
And for the record, I probably will lecture more people on "what's done is done."
It is a fair argument that players and fans should have come out and supported RR. The point I have is that it doesn't make that go away by turning around and doing the sdame thing to Hoke to prove a point. You did it so I am going to do it solves nothing and holds us back more than it pushes us foward. We all need to suck it up and move foward.
It's difficult to move forward when I continue to hear things that I don't agree with or that I find to be hypocritial, such as:
or my favorite:
I think I can move forward when the lemmings stop perpetuating nonsense.
Can't you see your hypocricy.
RR is exciting and Llyod Carr was boring and predictable.
RR can win it all and Lloyd was setling for Big Ten Championships (Even though Lloyd actually won a NC)
RR's players are lean and fast, Lloyds were fat and slow.
Why wouldn't players from that era be lessed than enthusiastic about RR. You are less than enthusiastic about Hoke for the exact same reason and didn't even play for RR or have a personal relationship with him.
Every coaching change is going to have people who preferred the old coach and people who prefer the new. The choice is how do we choose to deal with it. People who liked Lloyd (and I am one of those) probably chose poorly and didn't give RR a fair shake. That was on us. What are you going to choose to do?
but forgive us for expressing our frustration with people who completely failed to deal with the last new coach properly.
IMO, the lowest form of hypocrisy is giving the "be the bigger person" lecture when said lecturer has done nothing but the contrary.
have a real good understanding of what it means to by a hypocrit.
Saying "Carr used bad judement in recruiting Cissoko, but RR absolutely had to take a chance on Feagin" would be a hypocritical statement.
Saying "Carr's recruiting of defensive backs over his last three years was lean and this contributed to our woes on defense" is not a hypocritical statement.
Or are you implying that you have seen me say something negative about Carr aside from the recruiting of the defensive backfield from 2004 to 2007? If so, enlighten me.
Also, I'm not arguing that the old players needed to openly embrace RR. You are right. It is human nature to be more comfortable around people and situations that you are familiar with. I can't fault them for that. However, I'm not going to get all warm and fuzzy inside because these players are again comfortable coming around the program when the reason they didn't feel welcome previously was because of their own insecurities and not from the staff not actually wanting them around.
Maybe it is a lesson learned from the Rodriguez transition - but I view all this as dripping with hypocrisy. MGoBlog is not where the flag waving should, or needs to happen.
If this is really an attempt to fix the problems from last time, msm and the old boy inner circle is where the issues are - convince the easily herded masses and the inner circle out there. Let us arrive at our own conclusions based on analysis and debated opinion.
I bet all those posters under 200 mgopoints are secret plants from the athletic department! We're on to you now, Hokeshills!
at least I know I can trust you, you have more than 200 points.
I was wondering if the OP was suggesting some giant conspiracy to infiltrate mgoblog with positive Hoke comments.
The KGB has to be behind this
I work for a large corporation and we take social network marketing very seriously. We hire temps and students to create volumes of content all of the time that support our products and services (Linkin In Facebook, blogs, etc). To think that someone (a 3rd party PR firm for example) might employ this technique on behalf of U of M is not only plausible, but probable
I believe you are overthinking this, but the total 180 from many fans and media from three years ago is amazing.
But until this past week, as a longer-term mgoblogger, I found it unusual and kind of weird that the thread about Brian on WTKA yesterday entitled "Cook on WTKA."
When has Brian ever been referred to as "Cook" on here?
Just noting that there's a very definite new-style poster, and they seem to be very "All In" to Brady Hoke.
And yes, I'm a 46 y/o cynic in the metro-Detroit automotive industry, as well as a Class of '87 grad.
Jaded much? I'm 46 as well (though I took longer to get around to graduating until '89) and asked a similar question a few days ago about whether all the regulars had been raptured or if I missed the memo about everyone getting new login identities. It's been a bit surreal.
Is there a samizdat mgoblog where all the oldtimers went?
and we lost momentum in the one week of not being able to post or vote.
I've seen him referred to has "Cook" many many times. Granted I'm usually a big lurker, but it wasn't odd to me to see.
I would hate to be on your bad side. So what is the problem? You want us to suffer more so you can complain more? Be happy that we have Positive Vibes pumping through the university again.
Lastly, I find it so annoying when people blissfully refers to themselves as cynical. What a way to live life…
Nah, I just don't take the spoon-feedings as well as I did at a far younger age. I scratch a bit deeper and ask "why?" About five times. It's amazing how the answer changes with each "why?"
And no, I don't want more suffering. I just wanted us to be an organization of its word, and if we gave a guy a 6 year contract to effect a culture change, then let him have his 6 years. It's a very unprecedented firing, considering the time Bump Elliott and Tommy Amaker were given to work through their method (or "process" if you must).
You called people out for having ~200 points, when you really don't have much more than that yourself.
Not attacking your credibility, just pointing out that there is a bit of a contradiction.
It's a general number, observing the comments, how long I can guesstimate they've been on the board, or active on the board, etc.
You read Rosenberg's tweets?
How's that going for you?
Should be called "twits"! ZINGER!
I don't think you can drink the kool-aid until you get off of Rodriguez's balls and come up for air.
are you hung over?
And finally, unusual influx of new MGoBlog members, seemingly most with under 200 mgopoints, who are now the standard bearers for the defense of BH, his record, his opportunity, and the patience and time needed for him to do the job.
Are you suggesting that there is an orchestrated effort of trolls trying to sell BH to the program? That seems a little much.
Brady Hoke's charisma, fitness as a coach, and chances for success aside, I'm with the OP. You'd have to be blind not to notice the number of new Pro-Hoke accounts the past couple of weeks. A couple of DB (database, not Dave Brandon, ha) queries could confirm that.
Hoke-a-mania/Hokemania reeks of sappy corporate PR. Doesn't mean it happened, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Oh, and I still wish Brady the best. Really -- I do.
Seriously, do you work anywhere they do any level of PR or consumer marketing? Do you realize that any strategy would incorporate any and all online channels, especially one that is this focused on the topic at hand so intensely and with so many passionate users .
Really, they would be crazy not to.
Whether you think it right or wrong, it is nothing if not smart.
I realize it's 2011 and there are more ways to get your "brand" and your "message" out there but I totally agree. The full-court press on the positive Hoke spin is amazing. And, yes, I have noticed a ton of new users, all with the pro-Hoke message. Not that there's anything wrong with that but it has been noticeable. DB's corporate background is very evident.
There is a new coach and many fans, players, and even media members are excited about that. Therefore you get a lot of talk about the new coach, and a ll the Fluff that goes along with it.
I would without question rather have excessive positive coach coverage we've had than the excessive negative coach coverage we've had in the past. (I'm blaming the media/fans there, not RR.)
Hoke is the shiny new toy
He still has the new car smell
If you can't be excited about a coach in the first week then you may never be ( I know if he wins everyone will love him, but after these past 3 years its nice to have a little positive feelings)
No one is collecting money yet for his 30 foot statue on South U., but at least you can believe him when he says he wants the team to be more physical and not get pushed around
FWIW, I hate your avatar. I was wondering what that smell was though, I thought it was fishy but I guess it's that new car smell.
Not sure how the Adidas/Nike thing fits in with your rant; that was signed in mid-2007 while LC was still the head coach.
I'm one of those excited about Hoke, but I see your point. The most interesting thing to me isn't the media thing (that's predictable), it's the players. The players' support of RR was notable by its absence, and now it's notable by its presence. Why did so few players publicly support RR? The tin-foil theory is that Carr orchestrated it, but I'm not sure that's plausible. I'd really love to know what went on there.
I dislike the silence of former players during RR tenur as well. But a fair amount of the players i've seen come out and support Hoke and say positive things about him are players that played on the team while he was here, were recurited by him, or have some type of relationship. Not all, but most.
So, in that sense, I get how you can have a lot more players talking and saying positive things this time around than when RR was here. I'm in the camp that thinks it doesn't matter and they should have supported any coach the same way no matter what. But I can see why players are more vocal, and I really think it's extremely tin-foily to believe Carr orchestrated it. Sad if anyone really does think that's the case.
I was just linking that it was former players, AND one former HC, who all were eerily silent for 3 years, and now in one week, can't shut 'em up.
Just a little too well orchestrated for my tastes, not very natural or organic.
Just seems like you're reading way to much into the situation when there are many logical explinations avaliable.
Just my two cents :)
but isn't that what the internets and the off-season are for?
Don't you think it makes sense to get these former players involved once a new coach is hired? We are hoping to start a new era here in Michigan football so to have all the support is a benefit to the program. I don't think it was DB's fault that RR didn't have the support of the former players, but it was Bill Martin's. He was the one who made the hire and he should have brought everyone on board much better than he did. It was too late for Brandon to be able to circle the wagons because alot of the damage had already been done and there was really no changing the opinions of former players and coaches unless we miraculously won the Big Ten or beat Ohio State this year. IMO.
and I'd considered that a little venom needed to be aimed at Bill Martin for some of the spinning we're seeing today, that could have been oh-so-useful back three years ago.
Thanks for the positive inputs!
Really? Is it really a mystery? A guy who none of them knew is hired basically as a repudiation of the carr/bo tradition, promptly fires everyone on staff - you know, the coaches that they played for - brings a bunch of baggage, makes some pretty monumental changes, and then goes 3-9. And you wonder why he got less support than a guy who they knew, liked, and played for who promised to undo some of those changes and bring a lot of things back to the way they knew them?
Sounds like a conspiracy for sure.
Would your rather be going through Freep jihad the sequel? It's a long time until meaningful football is played again. Enjoy the peace. It's been a long time coming.
This whole process was an unmitigated disaster and DB is doing damage control now. He is trying to brainwash the fanbase into believing that BH was the man from the beginning and he is way more qualified than any of us know.
The condescending nature of DB is really starting to get on my nerves a bit. The way he always feels th eneed to point out that "I have far more information and knowledge to base my decisions on than you little people" is growing old.
He probably did have a little more information re: RR and the program when he was making tha decision (I don't think it was a great deal more, but probably more). But seriously, how much more information did he have on BH, JH, LM, JG, GP etc when it came to the coaching search and subsequent hire? Not very much if any.
I said long ago when so many posters on this blog were drooling over DB and singing about all the faith and love they had for the guy that he hadn't done anything to that point to base an opinion. Well he has now and IMHE I am not overly excited about the prospect of DB being the AD at The University of Michigan.
"But seriously, how much more information did he have on BH, JH, LM, JG, GP etc when it came to the coaching search and subsequent hire? Not very much if any."
You're kidding me right? You really think the AD, someone who has access to actually talk and interview these people, talk and interview people who have worked with them and know them... has "Not very much if any" more information on them than us? Really?
I'm intersted to hear the logic behind that one to be honest.
Listen, we even know what kind of toilet JH has at his home in Stanford so I stand by what I said. What do you think the AD has that is RELEVANT to a coaching hire that the public doesn't?
With the immergence of the internet there isn't alot that the public doesn't know about public figures. Tell me what is most important when you are picking a coach? To me it would things like: past coaching history, rankings of their offenses, rankings of their defenses, how they did recruiting, how did they perform in bowl games, how did they perform against good competition etc etc etc.
If you think what of kind beverage he prefers is relevant, or what type of underwear he likes (though I would bet you could even find this out on the internet somewhere) than yeah, he might have some information that we don't, but I don't think that is all that relevant.
I am honestly curious to know what things you need to know in terms of credentials for a HC candidate that most people can't find out over the internet? This is not counting things you find out during the interview process because DB didn't interview any of these people. I want to know what you think DB knew about those candidates that excluded them from being good choices for UM that no one else could possibly know?
Am I reading this right: Web surfers have access to basically the same info as Dave Brandon, and therefore can second guess every move he makes with complete credibility?
I was wondering what the personal thoughts of Les Miles, Harbaugh, and other prominent football people are regarding the schemes, recruiting, startegies, etc of the leading candidates. Can you google that for me?
so tell me how you would find that out without talking to them? Because DB made his decision without doing that from what he has said. That is my point....he tried to make it seem like he had tons of information that no one else did and chastised people for questioning his process and decision, when in reality he simply eliminated many because the main criteria was that the person had to be a "michigan man".
He eliminated all other candidates (except perhaps Harbaugh who eliminated himself by taking the SF Job) without even interviewing them because he has said BH was always his number one choice. So what does he know without interviewing any of these other coaches that magically makes BH a better hire than JG, GP, DM etc etc etc?
If DB could just give a single straight truthful answer I may change my opinion of him, but at this point, I can't believe anything the guys says.
I follow your point better, I still entirely disagree that just because we can look at a few stats and some rankings here and there we really "know" a coach more than an AD who has access to the exact same information (possibly better presented and researched, possibly not) in addition to being able to interview the coach and figure out how they can adapt to our personell, what they will bring to the team, what they were trying to do with their previous teams and what worked for them and what didn't.
But I do get your point, if one was motivated enough they could go through break down recuriting classes, team rosters, schedules to make those ranking numbers far more meaningful too and have a wealth of information at there hands for a coach.
As I just said though, i still disagree that the interview is as meaningless and trivial as you're trying to make it seem, and don't say that DB "didn't interview any of these people" because you nor I have any idea everyone he interviewed and talked to and possible pursued. I don't know why that line bugged me so much when I read it, but I can't stand when people will make assumptions and present them as facts in an argument.
At the end of the day, I truly believe that DB knows a lot more about each canidiate and what they could bring to the football team then the majority of the public (including the majority of posters on this board. The majority of which probably didn't know anything about Brady Hoke other than whatever Brian has mentioned during the coaching searches), but I do agree that with the internet and videos available that the general public can become very well educated on each canidate.
still missed my main point.
I am not going to say with any degree of certainty that DB is a truthful person. In fact, I think there is about a 50% the man is lying everytime he opens his mouth. However, if he is to be believed, he didn't interview anyone for this job other than BH. I agree 100% that the interview process can tell someone much more than anything we can learn from watching these guys coach and google stalking them, but DB didn't do that (or so he said anyway).
With that in mind then, my point was that I don't believe he had a whole lot more information than any of us did in relation to the other candidates out there. Since he didn't contact or interview anyone else for this job (which I believe was what he stated) he excluded JH, JG, LM, GP and every other coach based on information that is pretty easy for people to get access to.
Based on everything we know about those other candidates out there, it is pretty easy to see by any measure that Brady Hoke, as nice a man as he is, is not even remotely in the same category as some other coaches people were talking about. And it doesn't matter how much DB wants to believe that he is the smartest man on the planet and the fanbase are just a bunch of bumbling fools, this decision and the way he allowed this whole proces to be carried out is evidence of the reverse.
You may have already seen that considering earlier comments. But it's pretty spot onto our discussion.
However, if he is to be believed, he didn't interview anyone for this job other than BH. I agree 100% that the interview process can tell someone much more than anything we can learn from watching these guys coach and google stalking them, but DB didn't do that (or so he said anyway).
What are you talking about? I recommend you re-watch the Press Conference and maybe re-read a few articles if you think dave brandon ever said he didn't interview anyone else for the job but BH. He said the complete opposite. If your entire point of view and frustration is with that though, I entirely understand and agree. But I simply don't know why you think he said he didn't interview anyone else when he said he did (He never mentioned anybody by name though).
If Hoke has the same record as RR after three years, the media and the former players will turn on him too, and with a vengeance.
Former RR supporters (like me) can drive themselves crazy contemplating the astounding differential in media and fan treatment between Hoke and RR, but we'd be fooling ourselves if we denied that ultimately, it all came down to wins, losses, and how competitive we were. If RR had managed somehow, some way to field a more competitive team, and gotten a couple of victories against MSU and OSU in the bargain, Brady Hoke would still be in San Diego.
I don't think losing will be happily tolerated either, but:
In an "all other things equal" sort of way, how much slack do you think Brady will get relative to RichRod?
If the answer turns out to be "B" I'll eat my keyboard.
C) The same.
see the Push for details
Actually, I don't think it would ever come down solely to wins and losses. I remember being surprised at the venom from a young alum after RR's first year. If RR settled into 9-3 seasons, using smaller players in a spread option, I don't think the fan base (especially the old guard) would treat it the same as Hoke's or Carr's 9-3 seasons, with large, "tough" players in a pro-style offense. Ironically, the same is true for Les Miles at LSU -- despite his incredible success, he is not accepted by some as one of their own, and some pine for an even more elite coach.
As for the future, as long as we are "competitive" with MSU and OSU, I don't see Michigan willing to take chances to bring in new ideas or men who would "need a map of the campus" to get to the next level. I hope I'm wrong, but my guess is that we'll go back to being embarrassed on the national stage when we play teams like Alabama, USC (Rose Bowls), and Oregon. Michigan State this year is a good exemplar of what we're aiming for. (And yes, I realize that RR's team here, after three years, obviously couldn't compete with the Alabamas of the world as well, and also got blown out in some Big Ten games. We will never know whether we could have ultimately put together a team akin to the '07 WVU team that walloped Oklahoma.)
Are talking score or what? 14-3 seems like a fairly close game at times, but the 2007 OSU game certainly wasn't competitive.
I also think being "competitive" is useless when you still fucking lose every time.
I second blueheron's point. I can say with confidence that a number of M "fans" hated RR from the time he stepped on campus either due to his accent, his offense, or his lack of direct connection to Michigan.
...Something that didn't fully happen in the RR tenure. I've made it known that I dislike the hire and have doubts about the future of the program but I'll fully support Hoke in his attempts to prove me wrong, and I welcome him doing so.
Is it a little forced perhaps? Yes, but who cares? The fanbase needs to unite and its doing its best to do so. Dave Brandon remains dead to me.
We need to work on not prefacing "I'll fully support Hoke" with "I dislike the hire." Not picking on wlubd, because it is done a lot, but it is not support if you pronounce your dislike in hte same breath.
So I should just erase my entire opinion on the matter and blindly support whoever? Not going to happen.
Like I said, I will fully support because like it or not he is the coach and ultimately I want to see this team win, and in order for it to win, Hoke needs to succeed.
But I'm not going to pretend that I'm overjoyed and that Hoke is SUPER AWESOME AND GOING TO BRING US DOZENS OF CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!!!1!!!!!!. I hope that's true but I'm tempering my expectations until I actually see what happens on the field.
But skepticism does not equal a lack of support. That's the same mentality that some people had in assuming those that wanted RR gone were haters. I loved the guy and felt that he needed to go, not because of anything on the field, but because of how the process went down.
I would disagree. I hate seeing all of the prefacing done all the time, but supporting Hoke and being against the hire are two different things.
I did not like the way DB conducted himself in the last six weeks, I think he got "left at the altar" and conducted a "national search" of three candidates, while being a total dick to RR and his staff.
I also recognize that Brady Hoke did nothing more than take an open job, his dream job, and I further recognize that he will work his ass off to make M a winner.
Just because you're not behind the hire doesn't mean you can't then be behind Hoke.
Yes, the pushback has been a bit much, as though all the support the AD withheld from RR is now pouring out for Brady Hoke. Man, if they had this good of a marketing plan for their head coach I would have loved to see them implement it, oh, I don't know, maybe a year ago?
Either way, try not to think about it. Just close your nose and drink the Kool Aid, because continuing to be skeptical won't do any good, so might as well enjoy it until football season.
I do find it funny that most of the board was "Oh no, not HOKE!" until he was hired, and now it is "Hoke was the best choice, this is awesome!" I think part of that is that once the guy is hired, you have two choices- do a 180 and accept it or continue to stew. Stewing makes you look unpatriotic (i.e. not supporting your university), so just roll with it. It's not worth the hastle.
I'll get there. I just don't like the slurping I'm being accused of above, being suggested as my next best course of action today for the big guy.
I take some issue here -- the Michigan athletic department supported RR -- most notably with a vigorous defense of him to the NCAA. If you want to say the extended 'Michigan family' didn't support RR, I'd agree completely.
Pretty sure the root of the issue was a guy in the AD that never responded to e-mails regarding CARA forms, leading to FreeP hitjob and the NCAA investigation.
Defending RR in the NCAA investigation is part and parcel of defending the university.
That is a far cry from creating and implementing a PR strategy to improve his image and the perception of him by fans, which certainly never occurred in any form for RR.
In fact, the absence of it speaks volumes and overly terse Brandon quotes to the effect of 'RR is Michigan's coach' are more like a vote of no confidence than any kind of endorsement.
People just get excited about change. It's a shiny new coach with a shiny new philosophy who happens to have ties to the program. Alot of players and fans are getting behind this so quickly because this is the time to do it. This support, regardless of it's origin, is a nice change from the last three years. Now, once games are actually played or if Hoke makes one "non-michigan" man move (which he will make, it's inevitable, he's human) then we will see if the support is still here. FWIW this hire has grown on me more every day.
you must be a Hoke - third cousin on the fathers side?
I've actually been a reader for a long time. i just don't comment often. i was a huge RR supporter and at first i hated this hire, but I realized i was being unfair to Hoke considering we don't know what he is capable of yet.
Love your signature, by the way
"Points?...Points?...We're talkin' 'bout points! Not the game, but points!"
And finally, unusual influx of new MGoBlog members, seemingly most with under 200 mgopoints
No offense, but I have no idea who you are.
I'm Larry. Damn glad to meet ya.
Well hi there Larry.
I think your larger point is understandable, but only if you were to maybe have taken a break from the blog immediately after the hire. Over the last few days, people have embraced the hire because of (a) positive news (Denard and Fred staying, recruits being retained), (b) Hoke's presser and attitude, and (c) general optimism (Borges is going to run Denard still, but also pass = Michael Vick, our defense has to be better, Hoke loves Michigan).
The AD has to put the full court press on the PR front to sell the hire. Par for the course I think.
I DID stay away for a few days after RR got whacked. Didn't stray too far these past couple days, so yeah, I guess it's showing, huh?
Your comment about the Hoke presser is kinda funny, local Detroit/Windsor radio, the "sports jock" called the press conference a happy event for every "Michigan slap-dick." Then actually did his own impersonation, basically just using the mgoboard post for the over/under words/names/phrases to be heard.
Yeah, I mean, it was, but that was probably exactly Brandon's plan. I wonder how much Hoke was coached (if at all). If he wasn't, it's actually more impressive that he had that much energy and enthusiasm/ability to connect with the fanbase.
I really liked Rich as a person and coach, but I wish Martin had made him go through a week-long workshop on public speaking and media interaction for leaders. These days, you have to be able to talk to the media and hundreds of thousands of fans.
Unless you're Schnelly.
i understand the feeling. You can look back at my posts and see that I am not, in fact, a Hoke troll
Could this be a product of DB learning from Bill Martin's experience that you really have to sell the new coach in a way that takes advantage of the 24/7 news cycle, rather than being victimized by said short attention span reporting? DB seems a whole lot more media-aware - old and new media - than his predecessor.
Although I share the OP's discomfort with the over-the-top coverage and opinion-shaping, I admire DB for doing everything he can to make sure this new hire starts with as positive an image as possible.
I too was wondering this morning about related issues raised by the OP. Now, I'd be surprised if all these new MGoBlog members are actually planted by the AD, but, I also wouldn't rule out the possibility. DB is all about marketing. I'm surpised he hasn't replaced "The Team, The Team, The Team" with "The Brand, The Brand, The Brand." And his branding is BO-BALLMICHIGANHISTORYANDTRADITIONCARRIEDNOWBYBRADY.
The things that got me wondering are: (1) the FB Hokemania sunshine blown up my patootie; (2) DB's happy happy tweets on "what a perfect day" it is; (3) DB's incessant referrence to "The Team" x3; (4) referring to BH simply as "Brady" to reignite what we all loved in calling our coach simply Bo.
Yes, its easy to call this all conspiracy theory, because it is. I am not saying that I 100% believe this to be the case. But I certainly do suspect that DB has laid out a full scale marketing campaign plan to convince us all that it's "morning in Ann Arbor" again, and not only that, but it's a good "Bo Morning" and a good "Lloyd Morning." Well, now its a good Brady Morning.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if DB is using all means at his disposal to create an environment of that subconsciously tells us we're back in the good ol' glory days again.
I believe DB was once quoted saying: "I don't talk about the past; I create the future." Well, I am certainly open to the possibility that he is creating the future in our minds (and it being a case of "back to the future).
So let me conclude again by saying I don't necessarily believe this is all happening. But I don't discount the idea much either.
But I literally laughed out loud when I read this one "referring to BH simply as "Brady" to reignite what we all loved in calling our coach simply Bo."
Man conspiracy theories are jacked up sometimes.
and again, I'm aware that what I described is indeed a full-blown conspiracy theory. That's why I don't necessarily believe it. But I also don't put anything past DB. All I'm saying is that I'm not ruling anything out.
I don't think "conspiracy" is the right word. Conspiracy would imply that DB intended to undermine RR and I don't think that was the case. It is a concentrated marketing push though, and frankly, kudos to DB. I agree with the above poster that in 24/7 news cycles and social media realms you have to be very intentional about managing the message.
Yes. Hoke seems like such a non self-promoter that it feels especially orchestrated and disingenuous. .
over the top. However, it is exactly what we need. After the last three years with no support, we need to come together and support the current staff.
Let’s face it: the Hoke hire isn’t sexy, and it does not “sell itself.” It needs to be sold, not only to persuade a skeptical fan base, but also to make the most of the waning weeks of the recruiting year. With no games or practices to make real football news, the news needs to be manufactured. If you were in charge of marketing Michigan football, this is exactly what you ought to be doing.
The “sell” means nothing to me personally. I am not a recruit, and I don’t need to be persuaded to support Michigan football. I can afford wait to decide how I feel about Brady Hoke until he coaches some actual football games. But I do realize that there are people out there, especially recruits, who have never heard of this guy, and need to be educated in a hurry.
After the last 3 years, its no secret the fanbase has been split, so its logical for DB to try and build up some momentum to get everyone behind the program's new coach. Yes, they are trying too hard, and yes, there have been some exaggerations (such as the current players being ecstatic over the Hoke hire), but I can see what DB is trying to do, and I don't blame him. Its his job to correct course, and if this doesn't work out, its hard to see him being AD 5 years from now.
I'm not saying I agree with or even appreciate his tactics, but I understand what he is trying to accomplish.
Dave Brandon knows that Michigan football is about the bottom line, both in a wins and losses sense, and in a ledger sheet sense, and wins and losses drive the ledger. He has suites and club seats to fill and he has to make sure that people are buying in to the new hire. So yes, it's a marketing full court press. Yes, the media is being rather pliant toward Coach Hoke. Yes, there's more fluff around here than there has been in a long time. However, it's just the multi-vector attack.
Bill Martin wasn't leveraging Twitter and Facebook to push Rodriguez on people. The sources from which people can draw material from, and at the rapid pace at which they can is much better than even three years ago. But really, is "Hoke-a-mania" that different than "In Rod We Trust". Perhaps there is more alumni buy in, less skepticism, but there's also a greater hunger because the last three seasons "feel" like three of the worst seasons in most Michigan's fans lifetimes. When you call a 7-5 season the Season of Infinite Pain, it shows how many Michigan fans had been spoiled by things. If people are jumping back on the bandwagon, it's because they want to and people in the AD, who want the profligate cash that comes with that bandwagon, are reassuring them that it's just like you remember. If you cast a cynical eye upon this, no one blames you. If you think it's unfair, no one would blame you, because it is. But it's going to happen, because the AD wants you to believe, and in the absence of results until September, they have an easier time selling you on hope.
I appreciate your thoughtful reply.
Who knows if things would have/could have turned out differently. But Bill Martin did almost NOTHING to help RR with the transition to Michigan. He basically said to the press: I hired this really good coach, Michigan's lucky to have him, here he is.
I have no idea what went on behind the scenes, but my guess is that RR just went with his gut on how to present himself and his desire to coach at Michigan. But with a little PR handling, he could have come off in a way that better appeased both the traditionalists and those looking for something new.
Martin was a financials guy, and he put the department on good financial footing. And he had a lot to clean up, still, from the Eddie Martin mess. But his handling of the Rodriguez hire (not the hire itself), to me, is a permanent blotch on his record.
Well said, I think you've got it exactly right. If the coaching search proved anything, it's that people want more information now and now and now! So we'll have to expect the full court press to satisfy the people that are pining for information, even if they won't admit it.
I have some idiosyncrasies regarding Michigan football, should I start a thread about each one?
I've always believed very firmly that the proper amount of people coming out to support a new coach is 17 with a +/- window of 5, anything that deviates from the norm, then I start a thread expressing my grave concerns:)
As my boy Brady Hoke says; "I can promise ya"
My favorite football coaches in the last 40 years have been, in particular order
1. Bo Schembechler
2. Gary Moeller
3. Lloyd Carr
4. Rich Rodriguez
5. Brady Hoke
tell me how you really feel.
That all of these guys (Woodson, Tom Brady, Jon Jansen, Aaron Shea, all of the Harbaughs, etc, etc) genuinely think Hoke is a GREAT coach?
They all seem to think the last coaching staff wasn't doing a good job at all.
15-22 backs up their opinion.
They all seem convinced that this new guy is going to do a better job. I mean, did you read how excited Tom Brady was at the prospect of Brady Hoke coaching Michigan?
How can you not read quote after quote from our heroes and not be swayed?
Are you smarter at football than them?
Listen, I lambasted the choice when I heard it. Brady Joke! Holy shit, I can't beleieve DB chose such a loser!
And then I started hearing the genuine excitement of all these football greats gushing and gushing about how great Hoke is.
Instead of arrogantly sticking to my initial opinion I said to myself "Self, all of these great football players and coaches have forgotten more about footbal than I will ever know. So maybe I need to change my opinion on this."
For anyone to stick to their guns and assume they know more about football and more about Brady Hoke than all of these football guys is the height of arrogance.
And I'll be there, probably around August.
But I don't need the overly aggressive push that the AD is pumping out today.
And 47-50, only 2 wins over teams with winning records during the 2010 season, these data points don't tell me Michigan football has made a giant leap skyward...no matter how much Hokeamania someone wants to sell me.
As stated in other posts on this thread, in order for Michigan football to do well, we need Hoke to do well. No question. And the entire org will get my support, and my buy-in.
But it doesn't change todays seaminess I sense...
Well, there might be numerous reasons for the former players' comments, reasons that go beyond just believing Hoke is a great coach. It looks as if some number of them come from a bias against the Rodriguez hire and the whole cultural atmosphere at Michigan, which you can admire/like or find gratingly insular and arrogant.
At any rate, I do wonder if some of what we're seeing is not simply a Brandonesque approach to filling the most important position at the key sport at the school. We'll never know what Brandon would have done had he brought in Rodriguez, but we can certainly say that Martin could have put on a better show for RR than he did. I assume that was part Martin, part the coaching search, and part the rancor within the AD.
Let's hope that the hype, even if ill-motivated, will be a positive in the long run.
It is beyond annoying and I am sick to death of getting push via Twitter/Facebook/email telling me about the new coach and suggesting we get on the waitlist for season tickets. First off, we only go to two games a year for financial and social (kids are still young) reasons, so no matter what, we aren't getting on the waitlist. But second, it makes the whole thing look as crass and mercenary a choice as I am imagining it to be.
I'm a Hoke fiend. I'm all Hoked up on Michigan football. Have a Hoke and a smile!
The fist colony in the "New World" was in RoanHoke Virginny, my gawd, catch the fever
I must +1 you for that, my good sir. I'm hoping we aren't left with a cryptic note reading CROATAN carved onto the gates of the stadium after a devestating season, though.
Not a chance, we will be protected by the Big House of Bogesses
I think this idea is being overanalyzed. You have a bunch of people who didn't like RR from the get-go, whose feelings were magnified by the problems within the AD and lack of winning. Then you have a bunch of RR supporters, whose feelings were amped up by the anti-RR crowd and the lack of talent on the roster. These factions are still warring, with battle lines drawn after the Hoke hire, and they probably will for a while.
I'd like to see a coming-together for the sake of the program, but it does make for interesting reading. FWIW, I'm bummed out we couldn't do better than Hoke, but I guess 3-9/5-7/7-6 blinds some to potential and tradition.The only real concern is if we don't utilize Denard in an effective way. There's no reason we can't have an explosive offense and stout "big-ten" defense on the same team -- I'd say that's the goal, actually.
I was an RR supporter, though with a lot of reservations about player development, staff choices, fundamentals, etc. I was surprised by and disappointed by the Hoke hire, for lots of reasons. But it's done. Finished. Alea Jacta Est. Sincere best wishes to RR, but Hoke's the coach now, and I hope my reservations are unfounded. (And since I know much less about football than any former player, the chances that I'm mistaken are non-trivial.) I sincerely hope he turns out to be a Tressel-type sleeper. One thing that will help him do that is if the press, fans, former players, etc are enthusiastic, and we can avoid PR catastrophes like those that plagued RR. If DB's experience selling pizzas has taught him a thing or two about controlling the message - all the better.
Just pointing out it seems a lot more "managed" than self-generated.
And the FB stuff IS a lot over the top....agreed. But the RR stuff was on gameday, not January 14th. I thought the FB post at 10:23 p.m. regarding DR staying was again, a little more than the actual event required. Considering no one knows how he'll be utilized in the upcoming O, at QB (though I'm not feeling the guarantees so many others feel), it's just all way too orchestrated.
As our boy Martin Landau said in North by Northwest, "neatness is a sign of planning."
I'd restate it but most people have already, I'm all in* for Hoke and I love hearing other Michigan greats come out and support him. I mean if you're a four star DB and you learn that Charles Woodson boasts Hoke's coaching abilities, that in no way can hurt Michigan's image.
*Is "all in" still Michigan's slogan per say? I hope so.
My 2 cents.
First I have been on here longer than the Hoke hire, but I rarely comment, hence the lack of Mgopoints.
I think, it's 2 things. The former faction that wasn't "all in for RR" may have a very small amount of regret at forcing a "good guy" out of a job. It's human nature to feel bad for the guy that you had a hand ... or think you had a hand in ... getting the guy canned. Therefore, declare your over the top support now, to fell better and to show your not a "negative nelly".
Second, given the chaos, change and hoopla, we all need to rally around something, that something is Hoke right now.
Third, I think this AD is very proactice in getting the message out..."support whomever I hire" so we don't look so batshit crazy all the time. I think his message has been recieved.
Ok, what did I spell wrong?
did you say something? I was distracted.
I really don't think DB is trying to rip a page from the marketing manual of "The Blair Witch Project" in attacking the blogsphere with pro-Hoke posters, but he certainly is a few notches up the ladder from Bill Martin in creating his "Michigan brand". How many new names did they get for their mailing list with their "Win two seats at the intro press conference" drawing? Gave away TWO seats, probably netted thousands of e-mail addresses.
For my money, I supported RR, but started to waiver at the halftime of the Penn State game. I'll take my chances with the new guy--but item number one on the agenda better be to turn the ship around regarding those farmers from East Lansing.
Why don't my commetns go where I want them to.
It should be obvious. Our next mascot should be Ren Hoek. I want that mother in a Wolverine uniform on a tee!
No, the "Hoke Push" (whatever that is), is not a bit much. When this place erupted with peanut butter and jelly time ecstasy when RR was hired, I dont recall all of this really true, deep, genuine "concern" over whether the RR push was "a bit much." I know, I know, the former M players didn't line up to publicly love RR--that really surprised me in light of all the years they spent getting to know RR and play for him---oh wait. This site has become hilarious. The rest of the blogosphere is settling into looking forward and we're wrapped up in a ball of angst over:
1. Are all sub 200 posters really plants from the AD's office? Oh no! They MUST be! Why else would they possibly support this hire? That's what that winged helmet jet was doing!! it was travelling around the country recruiting sub 200 posters to carpet bomb this site with Pro Hoke content!
2. Anyone who supports Hoke MUST have been an RR hater. There's just no other possible explanation as to why someone would support this hire! Wait, you say that all Hoke haters were former RR jocksniffers? IMPOSSIBLE!
3. A PR company must have coordinated the content of all media outlets to joinlty support this new coach. It couldn't possibly be that this new coach is a known quantity to these media outlets from his 8 successful years at M--and that he---wait for it--earned their respect. No that's IMPOSSIBLE.
4. The intelligent fan MUST withhold all positive sentiment for this coach because, after all, the jury is "still out." Hey, he hasn't proven anything yet...and if he goes 15-22 in the next 3 years, we'll KNOW he was a bad hire and that RR should've never been fired...oh wait.
5. If Coach Hoke doesn't bend, and shape his entire coaching philosophy EXACTLY around the talent that is on campus at this very second, then he sucks and was a bad hire. Because, after all, any coach who forces existing talent to adapt to his divergent system MUST suck...oh wait.
Nice. Real nice.
Yes, the hype can be pretty annoying at times. Then again, fb and twitter are designed to hook you and keep you coming back -- which is annoying.
we've got a new C-suite marketig guy, so I imagine this sot of thing will increase over time
I realize I'm a little (or a lot) late to this thread. In fact, as you can tell, I'm popping my posting cherry. Like many other new posters, I've been a loyal reader of this blog for years. I've never felt the need to post because most of the time others have posted thoughts that mirrored my own. However, I was compelled to create a log-in to reply to the OP.
And finally, unusual influx of new MGoBlog members, seemingly most with under 200 mgopoints...
I certainly fit the under 200 point profile. However, I've grown disenchanted with the sentiment that anyone under a certain amount of points can't have a valid opinion, or is dismissed simply because they are a newer user to the site. Everyone who knows that this is the best place for information on all things Blue. The divsion over RR in the Michigan community clearly spilled into the MGocommunity so much so that we still have a great divide here, even after the coaching situation has been settled. That divide seems to have morphed into a new MGoaddict vs. veteran MGoaddicts, when in reality, we all have the same disease. I realize that MGopoints are a badge of honor, I just don't enjoy reading the jaded comments of some of the seasoned vets strictly on the basis of points. I realize that OP was only referring to the influx of newbies that backed Hoke, but the basis was conducive to my point.
Now, on to the actual topic (not that I've stepped down from my soapbox) of unmitigated Hokelove. I'm not a Hokemaniac by definition. Am I ok with the hire? Yes. Was I prepared for this hire? I guess. Although Brian's disdain for Hoke has been widely documented (thus I don't feel the need to link it), I heard right after the bust that Hoke would be the hire by a former Detroit radio personality. And no, I don't have any connections or claim to be an inisder. I'm just the principal of a school that this fella's child attends and we occassionally talk UM football. Did I put a lot of credence in what he said? Not really. I was holding out for a big name. However, as more and more of the process revealed itself, the scenario became much more likely and ultimately to fruition. I was not alone in holding out for a big name (or keeping RR) and Michigan needed this to be a success, for no other reason than to galvonize the fan base:
There's a real, "sell the sizzle, not the steak" odor to this whole "process" and it's one that never existed previously, to my knowledge.
You're right. I would venture to think that a lot of the attention was orchestrated by the PR staff. Michigan will always be Michigan. But that last three years have done a lot of damage to the image. Perception is important. The self-fulfilling prophecy aspect of this Hoke love may just help mitigate some of the pain of the last three years- even it is just for show. Attitude and morale is high right now, at least from what I've read, and that it is the first step in restoring Michigan football to their righftul place atop the B1G... that and talent.
and feel like everyone is watching me. Stupid point total.
judging, watching. Look at the baby, look at the baby.
To birdough and newbie.
Onwards and upwards!
I too am a RR supporter and truly believe had he stayed, the team would have improved (assuming they had a new dc).
However, don't you agree that so much of the attention and positive push for Hoke has much to do with the last 3 years of poor (over-all) seasons? The transition between LC and RR was much different between RR and BH. I bring that up because people keep talking about RR’s reception was not as welcoming/positive. Well no shit people were intimidated and hesitant to buy-in to the new system! Tradition goes a long way. It is the #1 reason our recruits say they chose Michigan!
RR took over a program that had a promising young QB and a pretty solid class to work with. He did his face lift and told everyone to be patient for a while. I was patient and was willing to extend my patience because I understood what was happening and potentially coming together.
For the record, here is the past 3 year results prior to transition:
LC: Overall: 27-11 (18-5)
7-5 (5-3) (beat FL in bowl game)
RR: Overall: 15-22 (5-18)
7-6 (3-5) (annihilated in bowl game)
Now, I understand we have to take into account the offensive make over...however, defense and special teams do not get the same leniency. I do not, and will not rationalize those phases of the game for RR.
When you add the transfers and NCAA investigation, that creates a state of emergency in the minds of U of M supporters.
My point is, the reason so many people are "coming out of the woodwork" is because so many people have never experienced what we went through the past 3 years. They’re outright pissed at what we have become and so am I. Even the rest of the B1G is begging for us to get it back so the conference has more respect. I’m downright exhausted and excited for change. The guy seems great for our program. Former players and coaches should rise up and support the change. Overtly too!
I have a hard time seeing any of this hype being planned out by the University. These past three years have been rough, and although I was a RR supporter till the end, I was happy to see him go (if that makes sense). I don't think anyone was overly hyped about the hire orginally, but after hearing him at the presser it's hard not to get pumped up. Getting some fresh blood in, and hearing him say he would walk to AA to get the Michigan job, that can and should get any Michigan fan pumped. Expect to see another sell out home-opener.