Anyone else think Brian Gregory could be our basketball Bo?
Yes, I know football season is just around the corner. However, I couldn't help thinking about this as I looked at the box scores from our basketball trip to Europe. We're not going to be that good at basketball...again.
I like Beilein, I really do, but it's pretty apparent that we're not going to make the tournament again and that, unless some freshmen step up big, we're looking at being in the basement of the Big Ten. For the 4th time in 4 years we're probably going to finish 7th or worse in the Big Ten. If Brandon cans JB, am I the only one to see the similarity between Brian Gregory and Bo Schembechler?
Like Bo, Gregory was one of the trusted assistants at our biggest rival. If something happened to Woody while Bo was at Miami, there's no doubt that Bo would have been the guy to replace him. The same goes with Gregory, during the Izzo-to-the-Cavs-or-maybe-not period a few months ago Gregory was the only guy really mentioned that could step in at MSU.
However, just like Woody was never leaving OSU, it's clear that Izzo is going to be staying at MSU for a long time. Gregory understands the MSU-UM rivalry just like Bo understood the OSU-UM one. He's connected to the Midwest, just like Bo, and is in a stepping stone job, just like Bo. I'm proposing that if the season goes the way it looks like it's going to go, that we start a new Ten Year War, only this time it's on the hardwood.
Edit: I understand the European teams we're playing are A. professionals and B. good at basketball. As I mentioned, the box scores got me thinking about basketball a week before football season. It's not why I think he might be gone.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:12 PM ^
"am I the only one to see the similarity between Brian Gregory and Bo Schembechler? "
Yes.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:15 PM ^
You think Beilein is going to be fired because he's lost to a few pro teams in the preseason?
OK dude.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:16 PM ^
The team we are playing against today, for example, has a couple of players who averaged 15 points for final four teams. Additionally, these guys have had another five years to develop and play together. EVERY SINGLE TEAM IN NCAA WOULD GET BLOWN OUT BY THESE BELGIUM TEAMS.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:16 PM ^
In 2008 he was able to coach up his roster to overachieve. In 2009 he fell back to earth and the team played much worse than we expected. He is not a 1 and done guy so it will take a few years before we can really judge him properly.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:16 PM ^
...please donate a point for the cause.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:17 PM ^
Didn't Beilein take us to the Tourney a couple of years ago? Why are you so quick to write him off? Our hoops team is very young, give these guys a chane before you declare teh season a bust. You may just end up pleasantly suprised.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:17 PM ^
Jesus christ, 2 games In Europe and you're already writing the season off? What fun is it to declare doom before a single fucking dribble?
Write about a team you care about, because Michigan Basketball clearly isn't it.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:17 PM ^
Why would you be posting about replacing a coach you like, really like?
JB is in a very tough gig. I think he has done a fine job. Do you not remember two whole years ago? Last year was a disappointment, but there was many moving pieces last year. Some players had agendas and there was a severe lack of leadership amongst the guys.
No matter who you get to coach this team it is going to be tough given what Izzo has created down the road. Like it or not they are a bit of a basketball powerhouse.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:27 PM ^
I do remember 2 years ago. We had a nice little run, beat a handful of good teams, though UCLA wasn't as good as advertised. But I think that in year 4 we shouldn't be waiting for year 5. And as a response to below, I'm not writing the season off because of losses to pro euro teams. There is no one who thinks we're going to make the tournament this year and we're going to struggle to get to the NIT. If he gets to the NIT I think we should give him another year. If we have another 15 win-type of season, why shouldn't we consider going in a different direction?
We might not look like MSU, but there's no reason for us to look like Penn State.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:36 PM ^
Beilein just got a contract extension in the middle of last year's disappointing season. I don't think you have a clue how safe his job is right now.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:49 PM ^
We damn near made it to the Sweet 16. If not for the #1 overall pick we probably would have. Seriously this is an insane post. I don't really know what you want from UM Basketball if that isn't good enough for you.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:02 PM ^
Look at us. Look back at Minnesota. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to be as good as Minnesota.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:12 PM ^
Look at a Lego. Look at a Toyota Prius. Look back at a Lego. What the fuck are you fucking talking about?
August 25th, 2010 at 4:19 PM ^
Do you realize we recruit against a national pwerhouse in our home state? What in the hell does Minnesota recruit against? Not to mention in order to get an out of state kid to come to our peninsula they have to drive right past Indiana, Butler, Notre Dame, Ohio State aaaaand then say no to Michigan State... I don't think you know how hard it really is to get a recruit to play here right now. JB is doing a great job. Great.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:48 PM ^
One of their leading scorers is from Minnesota, the others are from Arizona, Louisiana, Georgia, and Ontario.
August 25th, 2010 at 6:14 PM ^
But Minnesota recruits against Wisconsin, and its not like that part of the country is a bball hotbed. There is a lot more talent in Michigan than in Minnesota.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:23 PM ^
I've always viewed Beilein as a great transition coach for us. He's the coach who brought us back to the tournament, made the Athletic Department realize they actually needed to put money and attention into the basketball program and its facilities to get results, drummed up fan support, realized that getting Michigan Basketball out there meant actually being visible in the media and the coaching community (unlike Amaker), got people talking about Michigan Basketball without mentioning Ed Martin in the next sentence. And has done it with a control of his team Tommy Amaker always seemed to lack.
Michigan Basketball is 500% the program it was 4 years ago. But I think with Beilein, we've reached the ceiling. And I say that as someone who really, really likes John Beilein. He's brought incredible stability to a program which had defined itself over a period of about 15 years by incredible instability. I think we're looking at a guy who will coach out his contract, take Michigan to the tournament maybe a couple more times at most, keep them on the bubble the rest of the time, and then the next guy will take it to the next level. We need separation from the "time of troubles," and Beilein is supplying that.
As for this European tour, who cares? Not going to play Chicken Little because we lost to a couple professional teams from Belgium. They're pros for a reason.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:59 PM ^
I've heard this "transition coach" theory before and, quite frankly, it's garbage. Beilein's recruiting at Michigan is steadily improving--he has by no means reached his "ceiling."
August 25th, 2010 at 3:45 PM ^
I agree with this and I don't. I have always looked at Beilein as a guy who could bridge the gap between the Amaker era and a potential return to elite status(provided we make the right hire after him). I don't see him ever consistently competing for Big Ten championships while he's here. However, the idea that 1 tourney in 3 years is his "ceiling" at Michigan is ludicrous. We are steadily improving as a program under JB and i think that his best days at UM are ahead of him
August 25th, 2010 at 3:28 PM ^
...should just throw in the towel for the season, because it looks bad for the boys again today.
Michigan_mbball Halftime: Michigan 28, Oostende 46. Douglass with 12, Morgan with 5.
I guess it doesn't matter that THEIR OPPONENTS ARE PROFESSIONALS.
Yes, I just yelled. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
By the by:
andrewbeilein Honestly, between the Oostende and Charleroi we will probably not play a better team this season.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:39 PM ^
No no no, you've got it all wrong. These are europeans...they drink lattes and eat scones and crossaunts and shit. We're americans and have always dominated them in sports (not counting soccer, or hockey, or basketball any time we lost to a european team). To think that a college basketball team that has true freshmen on it would ever lose to professionals is ludacris. The season is over, and probably the two after it as well. We need to fire RichRod because this is clearly his fault.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:24 PM ^
I propose this entire thread be deleted, particularly as it comes a day after Beilein received a verbal commit from a very solid recruit.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:29 PM ^
I think this is the vision our OP here has of European basketball.
The reality of European basketball?
August 25th, 2010 at 3:32 PM ^
That's very telling.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:39 PM ^
Hot chips anyone?
August 25th, 2010 at 3:41 PM ^
For those freaking about about Belgium, let's mention the rules under which they're playing in Europe right now have a very short shot clock. In an offense like Michigan's, where shot selection and ball movement are key, and the boundaries of a college shot clock are often explored, how successful are you going to be shock-transitioning into a system of rules by which you're forced to take a lot of shots you're never going to take once you get back home?
August 25th, 2010 at 3:44 PM ^
Whoa whoa whoa whoa....Hang on a second.
As someone who lived in Dayton for 25 years, watched Gregory many times at UD games and know former players of his I can tell you this would be a terrible idea. Just awfull.
I like the guy as a person, he's a decent recruiter, but he can't coach. During the games he is always coaching his players, every second of the game. Compared to say Bobby Knight who during games, sits back and watches his players play. You coach during pratice, not during the game.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:22 PM ^
I agree. I go to UD and most students who follow the team think that Gregory is greatly overrated by most fans and outside speculators. He's a decent coach, but I feel like he needs to adjust his system more to the players he has, we finally saw what they could do in the NIT when they were constantly running the ball. At times during the season, it doesn't look like there is any sign of an offense being run. And forget about late game clock management, Gregory is terrible at.
Brandon would be very naive if he thought Gregory could improve upon Beilein.
August 25th, 2010 at 5:28 PM ^
I live in Dayton and am a basketball guy. From everything I've seen of Gregory's tenure, he seems like a terrible Xs and Os coach. Yes, he can do the recruiting thing, car commercials, and a killer Michael J. Fox impersonation...but I would've taken Brad Brownell in a heartbeat (obviously, Clemson did) and a couple high school coaches in Dayton over Gregory. I was salivating over the thought of him going to MSU to replace Izzo.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:44 PM ^
Look:
Beilein has had 3 classes of recruits come into the program:
Class 1: Novak, Douglass, Cronin
He had, literally, 25 days to fill a class because Amaker had signed 0 players. Right, 0. So he grabbed virtually the only three players he could get. Novak seems like he'll be a solid player, the jury is out on Stu, Cronin got hurt, will never play again
Class 2: Morris, Vogrich, Morgan, McLimans
Morris and Vogrich were both top-100 recruits. Morris showed himself to be a good defensive player in need of some work on his shot, and Vogrich as a true freshman, wasn't quite ready (not many are). McLimans was to skinny to play, Morgan got hurt. Overall, it's way too early to determine anything about this class, but on paper, it's solid, and is probably the best class the school had since the early Amaker era.
Class 3: Smotrycz, Hardaway, Horford, Christian
We obviously can't say a word about their results on the floor, but Smotrycz is another top 100 recruit, Hardway was on the fringe, and Horford is a guy with NBA bloodlines all over his family tree. These are probably the best back to back classes since the Horton/Abram class was followed up with the Sims/Harris/Petway class.
Class 4: Brundidge, Burke
Nothing to be said. Brundidge is another top 100 player.
So what have we learned? The talent is incoming. It's not Beilein's fault that he retained 3 players from last years Junior AND Senior classes and 0 players from this years Senior class. The team was decimated, and the other upper-classmen on the roster are from the clas that he had 5 minutes to put together. The talent is CLEARLY coming in. Give it a chance to actually play.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:47 PM ^
I'm my OP was meant to be more about Gregory's similarities to Schembechler than about firing or calling for the firing of JB.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:48 PM ^
It seems weird to me that everyone here seems to be ok with giving RR more time yet they already want to fire JB when JB has actually, you know, had success AT MICHIGAN.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:51 PM ^
Except that "everyone here" does not want to fire Beilein, it seems.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:58 PM ^
I doubt that you'll be seeing the give Rod more time crowd.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:07 PM ^
and if RR had had the season that JB had in year 2(doing something the program hadn't done in over a decade which would be a Rose Bowl victory) no one would be criticizing him even if year 3 was a disappointment.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:17 PM ^
After year 3 I don't think it would matter much if he took us to the Citrus Bowl or whatever the equivalent of winning a game in the tournament is. Amaker's last 4 seasons were 8-8, 4-12, 8-8, 8-8. He didn't make the tournament, but he still has a better record. He also had that one good season, but couldn't go to the Dance.
So I guess the question is when did you want Tommy fired? I wanted it after 05.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:22 PM ^
If RR is .388 in the Big Ten after this year I will be ecstatic because that means we won 6 games in the Big Ten this year.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:27 PM ^
We think of our basketball team as being horrible because we didn't go to the tournament for a decade. It wasn't that bad. When Beilein took over we had won 22 games the year before and had won over 20 games three times in 4 years.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:38 PM ^
Are you kidding me? Not that bad? Did you actually watch Michigan basketball under JB? The reason we won 20 games so much was because Amaker didn't know the definition of tough non-conference game and they would win 2 games against NIT patsies regularly. Did you realize that every Big Ten team not named Northwestern had gone to the tourney since we had last gone? That's right, PSU had gone more recently. To imply that Amaker would have done anywhere nearly as well as JB these last 3 years is simply dumb.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:43 PM ^
I'm just pointing out the fact that Beilein didn't inherit a pile of crap. He inherited a team that was underachieving. As of right now Beilein has as many losing seasons in the Big Ten in 3 years as Amaker had in 6.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:29 PM ^
There are other, important factors to consider with JB in comparison to RR. Look at recruiting for example...JB has vastly improved our national footprint. We're now in on recruits in a way we haven't seen for years. The opposite is true with RR. We certainly aren't starving for recruits, but our profile has decreased under RR.
Further, it can't be overstated that RR turned a winning program into a losing program while JB turned a poor program into a decently ok program. Of course, RR's Big Ten winning percentage was .111 in 2009. JB kicked the shit out of that.
As much as I like JB, however, I do think he is on the hot seat as well.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:42 PM ^
JB's seat is about as hot as a bleacher seat in Michigan Stadium in November. He just got a contract extension. By DB's own criteria(recruiting performance, national profile), JB is doing a fine job and is not in danger of being fired. Also RR has not "decreased our profile", recruits are simply waiting to see if he gets off the hot seat. The M brand is just as strong now as it was in 2005 in respect to football.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:05 PM ^
Except the situations aren't comparable at all when it comes to JB vs. RR. Rich Rodriguez took over a program coming off of 3 Rose Bowls in 5 years, and a bowl win over the Heisman Trophy winner. And with that comes expectations of a certain level of performance, regardless of whether or not he has the talent to do so.
Michigan Basketball was coming off of years of sanctions and suck, mediocrity sandwiched in between flashes of "could this really be the year!?!!?!?", which always ended in "Oh, yeah, no, it isn't."
I don't think people want to fire John Beilein, and when I said ceiling, I didn't mean that the best he could do was 1 tournament out of 3 years, but rather that I think 2nd round of the NCAA tournament, maybe Sweet 16, a run like that is what we can expect, I think. A lot better than the ceiling being the NIT Championship, like it was under Amaker, and I think we've seen that Beilein is capable of bringing much more. I just don't see NCAA championship here, but I'd love to be proven wrong, of course!
August 25th, 2010 at 4:54 PM ^
Don't forget Dumars and Akune. Even the walk onsn that Beilein is getting are better than what we had before he got here. That may seem silly, but the more talent you have in practice/scout teams, the better it makes your starters play.
August 25th, 2010 at 3:53 PM ^
Jesus, I love how once-upon-a-time, Brian writes a highly-debatable column about John Beilein's "ceiling", and now 1 out of 3 people on this blog mindlessly parrots it everytime the man is brought up. Do people have their own opinions?
August 25th, 2010 at 4:26 PM ^
It's groupthink. Anybody who thinks Beilein should be fired is insane IMO.
August 25th, 2010 at 4:49 PM ^
a matter of expectations. If your expectations of Michigan are to be a top 10 team then I would say that Beilein is not your coach, and you want him fired. If it's to occasionally make the NCAA tourney, then he may be the man.
I don't believe this because Brian wrote it, but because of our recruiting classes.
August 25th, 2010 at 5:11 PM ^
my thoughts exactly!
August 25th, 2010 at 6:17 PM ^
Its mgocult at its best. Give a dissenting opinion about Rich Rod and watch the negs come and company line replies.