Any Further Info on "Top 12 CFB Team to Get Whacked"? Could it be us?

Submitted by Beavis on

Based on what was posted here previously, about a top college football team about to be exposed for all of its cheating and rule breaking, is there any more news to report?

I have a friend who is like the FSU version of me.  He is nuts for FSU football and reads WarChant regularly.  He said he was listening to a Tallahassee radio guy today (one he regularly listens to - so he must have some credibility or the kid wouldn't waste his time), and he came up with 5 names he was constantly hearing / suspected.  Again, this is likely just some BS, but I figured it was worth sharing.

Four of the teams are OSU, LSU, Oregon, and Alabama.  The fifth team was us. 

Not to say this guy has any credibility or anything, but I do love to rumor monger. 

MGoChippewa

March 2nd, 2011 at 11:53 PM ^

Shock jocks are offensive, crued and say outlandish things.  Calling Michigan a 2nd rate job is only offensive to segments of the fanbase that don't realize it's 2011, not 1998.  Michigan can be a 1st-rate job, but it is not at the moment as evidenced by our recent coaching search.  

MGoChippewa

March 3rd, 2011 at 12:02 AM ^

Those 11 national titles and 42 big ten titles haven't been enough for the likes of Harbaugh, Pryor, etc.  I could go on all day about the guys who don't see this as being as noteworthy as other programs.  This can be a first-rate program but at the moment it is not.  That only changes with on the field progress.  First-rate programs don't go 3-9, 5-7 and 7-6 in successive years.

BlueDragon

March 3rd, 2011 at 12:16 AM ^

Harbaugh was NFL bound no matter what.  Pryor followed the money, and I for one am very glad he chose to take his diseased personality elsewhere.  Michigan has not lost its ability to recruit well.  If we had, we would not have gotten Devin Gardner or Will Hagerup, who were the best in the country at their respective positions when they were recruited.  In your rush to point to the coaching change as an example of how Michigan has fallen from the first ranks, I would answer that getting Hoke enabled us to poach Mattison from the Ravens, and he is one of the best recruiters in the country.  The media has done an abrupt about-face and is now singing Michigan's praises to the heavens.  This would not be happening if we were a mediocre Big Ten squad such as, I don't know, Minnesota.

How is improving the win count by two wins from year to year not evidence of improvement?  The trend of better play and more wins has been established since 2008 DOOM.  We have competent to outstanding staff at all positions.  Texas posted a losing record this year.  Virginia Tech lost to Boise State.  USC has been struggling lately.  So has Florida.  Parity has come to college football and no one is immune to stunning upsets.

As for next year, Coach Hoke has called B1G Title or Bust.  Would he have said those fighting words if Michigan was truly a second-rate job?  It takes decades of mediocrity (Notre Dame and Tennessee are getting there) or NCAA ban-hammers (SMU) before a program can truly become second rate.

MGoChippewa

March 3rd, 2011 at 12:21 AM ^

Not sure how Virginia Tech losing to Boise State is relevant at all.  If not for Kyle F-ing Brotzman, Boise wouldve been in the title talk.  Texas had a down season after losing it's record-setting QB and still has their coach, if theyre not back to form next year then they may be in trouble.  Proof of Pryor being paid, outside of minor tattoo gifts, is necessary before you condemn the kid and university; regardless of him playing at OSU or Akron.  We obviously don't see eye-to-eye on this, so it's only prudent to say "agree to disagree".

BlueDragon

March 3rd, 2011 at 12:37 AM ^

VT came up short in a high-profile early-season game, supposedly with one of the best defenses in the country year-in and year-out.  Not to mention the fact that they lost in the ugliest fashion imaginable.  I watched the game and it was Yakety Sax material, what with all the mental errors VT was making. 

Pryor got to drive a borrowed dealership car to Jeanette, Pennsylvania.  He obviously didn't pay for gas or maintenance himself, and the dealership didn't let him borrow the vehicle out of the goodness of their hearts.  Someone had to pay for upkeep.  Remember when Clarett got busted for submitting a falsified police report?  He was driving a borrowed dealership car at the time--in 2002.  What are the odds?

I'm not sure how you can continue to defend the position that Michigan is not a first-rate program, but you have a God-given right to your own opinion.

MGoChippewa

March 3rd, 2011 at 2:37 AM ^

Thanks for the laugh.  VT losing to Boise State = The Horror x2?!?! -1 for using Fred Jackson-ish hyperbole in an inappropriate manner.  Boise State was a kicker away from possibly being in the title game.  Appalachian State, while a good one, was an FCS/D1-AA team that came into Ann Arbor and shocked a team with reasonably high expectations.  

BlueDragon

March 3rd, 2011 at 6:23 PM ^

Boise State went to the MAACO fucking Las Vegas Bowl because they don't matter.  Boise's roster is not full of elite level players.  One of RR's last actions was to snake-oil a key kicking recruit away from Boise, which should tell you something about how national recruiting works.

For their part, VT also lost to JMU that year.  VT 2010 is comparable to Michigan 2007.  No one is arguing that either program was not a top-level power at that time.  Michigan was one year removed from a serious national championship run that died in Columbus in 2006.  They beat Florida in the Capital One Bowl in 2008.  Unfortunately, most of the skill players--surprise!--went to the NFL, or transferred away.

justingoblue

March 3rd, 2011 at 12:22 AM ^

Take a look at what coaches dream of (ie, a first-rate job):

Tradition- A+, literally none better.

Facilities- A to A+, largest stadium in the country is a big deal.

Recruiting territory- A, nationwide.

Money for the program, assistant coaches, whatever- A+

Conference- A to A+, depending on the year. But even in a down year as a whole, Michigan and OSU are basically just judged against each other anyway, and that's the biggest rivalry in sports.

I'm confused as to how anything makes this a second rate job, besides two losing seasons in four decades (which no other school in the nation can lay claim to).

justingoblue

March 3rd, 2011 at 1:14 AM ^

 

Top 10

1. OSU - 67

2. USC - 63

3. Miami - 62

3. Georgia - 58

4. Florida - 54

5. LSU - 53

t6. FSU - 51

t6. Tenn - 51

t8. Oklahoma - 47

t8. Va Tech - 47

10. ND - 45



Others

Texas - 44

Michigan - 43

Wisconsin - 42

Nebraska - 41

Penn St. - 40

Alabama - 39

Iowa - 37

Oregon - 35

Auburn - 34

Ahead of Nebraska, PSU and Alabama, and within two of Texas and ND. Really pathetic...

(Link.)

BlueDragon

March 3rd, 2011 at 1:36 AM ^

I'd be interested in how many of those draftees earned starting spots, how many washed out, and how many were career backups, as well as which teams they play for.  The Michigan-NFL pipeline is still very much alive.  We haven't gotten as many players drafted lately but the ones that have gone (Brandon Graham comes to mind) are very, very good.

MGoChippewa

March 3rd, 2011 at 1:50 AM ^

If you look between Dec. '99 and Dec. '00, things look awful good, huh?  Michigan has had 11 players drafted since 2008, with 6 of those coming in '08 itself.  USC had 11 drafted in 2009 alone.  Alabama only had 12 between '08 and '10, but that gap will grow this year, for sure.  Same goes for Penn State and their 13, 15 for Texas, 14 for OSU, and 19 for LSU.  Convinced yet?  Once again, Michigan cannot, and will not, win on their tradition alone.

BlueDragon

March 3rd, 2011 at 2:01 AM ^

Our ten-year pace of drafting is comparable with other top programs.  To say that Michigan isn't first-rate because we only sent two or three players a year to the NFL in the last two years is ludicrous.  Every program in the country has periods where they don't send as many players to the draft.  You can't condemn Michigan's NFL cred based on a few years of diminishing returns.  It is reasonable to suppose that the top players on the current squad will be reasonably prepared and competitive for the draft.  Also, half of the programs you list have ethical problems with paying for players or oversigning.  It's apples and oranges, not to mention the irrelevant Enron graphic you threw in.

MGoChippewa

March 3rd, 2011 at 2:20 AM ^

Enron graphic completely relevant.  He picked a time span that is irrelevant, like plucking a one year span off the Enron graph.  Good God.  I'm losing patience with you.  So neg me into God-forsaken oblivion if that's how you want to prove your point.  I don't give a damn.

justingoblue

March 3rd, 2011 at 2:24 AM ^

You picked a TWO YEAR time span to evaluate a football program. You picked the two worst years you could find. Yes, ten is an arbitrary number; it's also the same starting date as your hero Cowherd picked to "diss" Michigan.

Don't cite someone and then call the continuation of that citations numbers arbitrary.

MGoChippewa

March 3rd, 2011 at 2:32 AM ^

You also picked numbers favorable to your position, it's called presenting your side of the argument.  Coaches aren't coveting a chance to coach Michigan because of draft picks over a  10 year span.  My statistics were more representative of the talent on the current roster. Harbaugh, Fitzgerald, Miles, etc.  Just because you would pitch a tent if offered the Michigan job doesn't make it more desirable than jobs elsewhere.  Alabama, Texas, Ohio State, LSU, USC.  Top tier programs.  Michigan as of March 3, 2011 belongs squarely in the 2nd tier.  Men lie, women lie, numbers don't.

justingoblue

March 3rd, 2011 at 2:39 AM ^

I picked the timeframe that you laid out when you linked to Cowherd's show. He said that from 2001-2006, Michigan wasn't performing at a high level in the draft. I extended the numbers to include current data, and they refute his and your opinions. 

Your "current roster" numbers do lie: they take a stat thrown out for one time period and then you inexplicably link them to another saying "See, they're the same!!!" while ignoring the data in between. Take Cowherd's numbers, take yours, add in the ones I brought to fill the gap, and you get a good picture.

As to the "neg away" remark on your reply to BlueDragon, you can easily see that neither one of us has negged you (with the exception of the Enron graph, I did) even though I (I won't speak for him) think you're tossing out intellectually dishonest data to support your conclusion, which basically amounts to, "lulz michigan isnt a big deal no more." 

MGoChippewa

March 3rd, 2011 at 3:04 AM ^

This debate and the Cowherd debate have become separated by now.  This isn't about Cowherd's "Michigan bashing" anymore, but about Michigan's relevance as a top-tier program.  The facts are clear.  We haven't seen a BCS bowl game in a while.  Take a look at this "blind resume", Michigan is not a dominant program like it used to be. http://www.thesportsjournalists.com/2010/11/college-football-blind-resumes-2002.html

And before you rip me for switching time frames, I'll say that this goes back to 2002.  So even before the failure of the RichRod era we weren't elite; we were good, sometimes great, but not elite.  We certainly haven't progressed as a program since Lloyd left, so where does that put Michigan?

EDIT

And if this was just "lulz michigan isnt no good anymore"or however you put it, then people like Colin Cowherd wouldn't talk about it.  If Michigan football wasn't important I wouldn't be on here trying to say that part of our problem is that our fanbase doesn't think we have a problem.

justingoblue

March 3rd, 2011 at 3:29 AM ^

Is this the Ten Year War? No. I've never argued that Michigan is a dominating program at the top of the universe right now. What I've said is that, over time, we put up stats (like wins and draft picks) up there with anyone.

It seems to me like all you've had to say is that Michigan isn't very good, or, to give you the benefit of the doubt after your last post, at the dominant level anymore. Anyone can see that on the field we are not the powerhouse we were under Bo or further back. However, I don't see that things are as bad as you, nor do I think that takes Michigan off the pedestal of elite programs.

I argued before that Michigan is a top tier job at the moment, and I won't back off of that. There are a million other reasons the Michigan program is still elite, despite a short-term slide. Every program you listed before has gone through the same thing while still being considered elite.

BlueDragon

March 3rd, 2011 at 12:22 PM ^

If you think the last two coaching searches were run competently then you sir need to read more.  Carr wanted out for years.  Bill Martin never let him until the cracks started to show and Carr's bad recruiting of defensive backs started to show up in the mid-2000s.  Rich Rodriguez was the best there is at the time, in 2008.  He was a slam-dunk hire.  Unfortunately, he met a perfect storm of attrition, injuries, general depleted talent base, and a hostile, semi-competent athletic department.  In 2011, DB started the coaching search in January--in January!--when he thought he had Harbaugh locked up months earlier.  Unfortunately, Harbaugh had his heart set on the NFL and DB was left holding the bag.  The ethical issues of Miles and the history with Moeller precluded him.  Who was left?  Brady Hoke.  Thanks to Hoke, we finally have a top-notch defensive coordinator.  I would argue Mattison is our best DC hire since the 90s.

Michigan is well-perceived outside of Ann Arbor because they recruit nationally, as has been said before.  Are the CMU Chippewas looking at top WR prospects out of California and LBs out of California?  No?  Then check your facts and stop listening to sports radio.  It's like going to Fox News for your sports coverage.  Makes you dumber.

Also, Mr. Cowherd is firmly at the center of this debate because he says that Michigan is a second-rate job now, a supposition that continues to baffle me.  Michigan is clearly not a second-rate career move, or Mattison would not have left the NFL to coach with Brady Hoke.  The problem in the past is that Michigan has balked at paying top dollar (~$1 million) for high-quality assistants.

justingoblue

March 3rd, 2011 at 2:17 AM ^

You mean since 2008 we've been short on Juniors/Seniors? Wow...

After 2007 we had a lot of guys leave for whatever reason (we're not adding that to this thread too). Since then, we have had less upperclassmen than in a normal cycle.

We have a good group coming up that will be drafted in big numbers, not to mention those "top-ten recruiting classes" at the end of Carr's tenure that Cowherd continually rants about were famously overrated.

The day you can't win a fantasy football team with only Michigan talent is the day I'd be concerned (not saying an all Michigan team would have won, but it would have been competitive).

Also, judging a program on two years is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. If Texas slips again this year will they no longer be an elite program? And how is Alabama light-years ahead of us if their numbers are identical? This makes no sense...you're cherry picking numbers to fit your conclusion.

MGoChippewa

March 3rd, 2011 at 2:18 AM ^

Here's the Big Ten for you: Ohio State(14), Iowa, Penn State(13), Michigan(11), Wisconsin(10), Nebraska(9), Illinois(7), Purdue(6), MSU, Indiana(5), Minnesota, NW(3) 

4th best in the Big Ten shouldn't be satisfactory as a first-rate program, will be 5th or 6th with Wisconsin for sure passing us with the 2011 draft, Nebraska likely will too.  Doesn't seem first rate material to me.  Let's try to be objective when we evaluate the program we root for.  

BlueDragon

March 3rd, 2011 at 12:30 PM ^

So 13 players drafted is elite, top-level material, but 11 drafted is absolute garbage that belongs in the second-tier?  Try again.  You're comparing a school with 42% defensive attrition to schools with normal levels of upperclassmen.  Just like your comparisons to ethically questionable programs (USC, LSU, Alabama, OSU), it's apples and oranges.

Michigan will still need several years to recover from the attrition, so the draft classes will be smaller for the moment.  However, we still have elite-level talent on the roster:  Molk, Martin, Denard are three names that come to mind.  They will be drafted and perform well at the next level (not necessarily as a QB in the case of DR).

MGoChippewa

March 3rd, 2011 at 5:46 PM ^

Nobody is calling second-tier garbage.  It takes a lot to be elite.  A main requirement for being elite is coming out on top.  We haven't produced on or off the field at an elite level.  Top coaches and recruits don't come here as frequently as they used to.  Hart and Frost had no problem walking away.  Tradition didn't convince them to come to Ann Arbor, the instability of our program chased them away.  Michigan isn't garbage, but it's not gold either.  We're not Notre Dame yet, but if the Hoke era goes as well as RichRod's, we very well could be.

EDIT

What about the performance of our program in the last 6 or so years makes you think we are currently an elite program?  If the discussion is over 60 years, sure, throw us in as elite.  This isn't about history, its about now.

BlueDragon

March 3rd, 2011 at 6:18 PM ^

You started this sub-discussion of the original post about whether Michigan was or was not a first-rate coaching gig.  Your justification into splitting up the thread was the NFL record.  I refuted your argument.  You can't reply to my rebuttal with a new line of reasoning.  Besides, YOU HAVE NOT REPLIED TO ANY OF MY EARLIER POINTS.

MGoChippewa

March 3rd, 2011 at 9:22 PM ^

Actually, you started this one, unless a different BlueDragon said this "Cowherd is on the record as calling Michigan a 'second-rate job.'  He's a shock jock and a ridiculous OSU homer."  As for refuting my argument, you may have made a counter-argument, but that doesn't automatically make it a good one.  The NFL thing still works in my favor.  How many players is Michigan going to see get drafted this year?  In a four year span, the length for a class to enter and leave, in terms of draft picks, Michigan has fallen significantly behind programs that the nation views as elite.  The gap will only get larger this year.  Alabama = elite, disagree?  LSU = elite, disagree? OSU, Texas, Florida = elite.  What does Michigan have on any of them right now? Greg Mattison? Please, he's a great hire, but let's wait a year or two to crown the guy.

BlueDragon

March 3rd, 2011 at 10:05 PM ^

Permit me to quote Mr. MGoChippewa:

"Here's the Big Ten for you: Ohio State(14), Iowa, Penn State(13), Michigan(11), Wisconsin(10), Nebraska(9), Illinois(7), Purdue(6), MSU, Indiana(5), Minnesota, NW(3) 

4th best in the Big Ten shouldn't be satisfactory as a first-rate program, will be 5th or 6th with Wisconsin for sure passing us with the 2011 draft, Nebraska likely will too.  Doesn't seem first rate material to me.  Let's try to be objective when we evaluate the program we root for."

Your argument was that being fourth-best in the B1G does not make Michigan an elite level program anymore.  I replied that being three players behind the #1 schools with normal senior classes does not make Michigan a second-tier program.  You're not defending any of the positions you choose to take; instead, you're slipping from one point of contention to another.  Alabama, LSU, OSU, and Florida all have ethical problems.  If you're going to compare Michigan to programs that oversign and/or pay players, there is frankly no point to having this debate.  Alabama does not have to put up with an Obi Ezeh or a Brendan Gibbons type on their roster for four years.  Saban can find a top recruit and cut the old one from the roster, no questions asked.  THAT, my friend, is the secret to those huge SEC draft classes.  Is becoming more like the SEC really the direction you want the Wolverines to take?

What's Greg Mattison done anyways?  Hmmm...he was the architect of the 1997 defense and the Ravens defense was one of the best in the NFL.  Is that good enough for Michigan?

maizenbluenc

March 3rd, 2011 at 1:53 PM ^

Rich was 3rd or 4th choice after several embarrassing no thank you's ...

Brady Hoke, while seemingly a great guy full of love for Michigan and our traditions, is an unproven hire. And you can alternately either believe Harbaugh and Miles were seriously gauged for their interest and turned us down or not, but still ...

It would seem there is a lot of tarnish on the luster you describe - OR - the position is so first rate that most proven coaches would prefer to leverage our interest in them into contract re-negotiations, rather than take on the pressure of coming here along with the challenges currently facing the program.

(Bless Brady Hoke for taking it on, and may he be successful at it.)

BlueDragon

March 3rd, 2011 at 4:03 PM ^

On the surface, RR was a weak hire.  However, he had taken the Mountaineers from Nowheresville U.S.A. to a respectable force.  Without him, WVU is another Big East team.

Hoke is indeed an unproven coach, but he comes from the Bo school and he has Mattison to take care of the defense.  He's called B1G Champions or Bust next year.  These are not claims and hires to be made lightly.  Hoke is going for broke.

Michigan's overall record speaks for itself IMO.  Recent years, especially since 2003, have not been as fruitful for the Maize and Blue.  I believe Michigan is a sleeping giant waiting for the right coach to find the right system for the team that we have today.  By "system" I mean beyond X's and O's to having the right personality and cultural ties to the program.  The media can make or break individuals in this day and age.  Perception is everything.  

I would argue that latent fear of Michigan has been written into the cultural DNA of the Big Ten conference.  What other program has had consistent decades of torching their foes to a fiery crisp year-in and year-out, recruiting the best players in the country, and winning B1G title after B1G title?  Ohio State would argue their recent history is far more glorious, but Michigan during the golden age reigned over the conference with a consistency and remoreselessness that no other team in the B1G can hope to rival.  The Big Ten, by extension, is the Heartland of America Football conference.  There is a mystique to Michigan that no other team can tear away, even if we lose seven years in a row to Ohio State or three to Michigan State.

In the meantime, our roster will still need improving, but normal recruiting will help with that.  For now, the key is transitioning the running game and making Denard more of a shotgun passer.  I have no idea where to start with the Defense, but whatever Coach Mattison wants to do is fine with me as long as it is the exact opposite of whatever Mr. GERG was doing there.

BlueDragon

March 3rd, 2011 at 5:10 PM ^

Perhaps Bill Martin's trouble was that he made the coaching search too public and the public ate it up.  If he had done things behind closed doors, more like a David Brandon-style AD, perhaps the post-Carr "The Process" would not have been as embarrassing as it was.

As for the national reach, I think cultural factors play into these decisions more than people realize.  A coach may hate Ann Arbor winter, snow, and ice.  A coach might be turned off by Michigan's stricter ethical rules and enforcement of university and NCAA bylaws.  That's where the AD needs to step in and sell the program.  As awkward as the 2008 "The Process" was, it eventually got Michigan a top hire.  The system worked.  

As it turned out, RR as head coach of the Michigan Wolverines did not work out for a variety of reasons.  The point is, top coaching talent was brought to Michigan and allowed to install a new system and a new way of doing things.  We still have the draw to bring in the most qualified candidates.  With Coach Hoke and DC Mattison, the emphasis will be firmly back on the 4-3 defense and West Coast I-form run game with a shotgun passing game.  These are closer to what Michigan has done in the past, and by virtue of historical weight, Michigan might have more success in the future running them.  Is it fair to Rich Rodriguez?  No.  Is it how the system works?  Yes.

maizenbluenc

March 3rd, 2011 at 7:17 PM ^

Martin's search resulting in the hire of Rich felt like a circus. (And for that matter, the circus may have played into the WVU lawsuit and the beginning of the Rich drama.)

I see your point on weather, and ethical restrictions, etc. I still think the brand was down as far back as the first search. Hopefully Brady Hoke and staff can restore the luster!

Tagg

March 2nd, 2011 at 5:56 PM ^

If I had to bet money I would place a big chunk on the University of Nike/Oregon. Of not the them my next best guess would be Alabama.

chitown.victor

March 2nd, 2011 at 6:02 PM ^

...but we decided not to post it just to keep you from knowing, Fartknocker.  He-He, He, He. 

Once one follower of this board knows anything for certain, I am pretty sure there will be six posts very quickly, and at least four will start with "SIAP:".

 

BlockM

March 2nd, 2011 at 6:08 PM ^

After the last few years' records, I have a hard time believing anyone would accuse us of cheating with regards to recruiting.

bklein09

March 2nd, 2011 at 6:18 PM ^

The rumor last night was that the big SI article was hitting the press today that would drop this bomb. However, that ended up being that stupid crime thing.

So the fact that all the rumors are pointing to Oregon could be equally inaccurate. 

However, the main sports writer for the Oregonian newspaper (Cazano) wrote yesterday that he was contacted by several national writers asking him for information about pending violations.

Cazano then contacted the U of O athletic department and posted their response in his headline: "Oregon AD hasn't heard a peep" from the NCAA or something like that.

Of course, the fact that the AD hasnt heard anything is pretty irrelevant since the rumor is that a major news source will be the ones to expose this.

Similar to what happened to us, the story will be exposed and then the NCAA will get involved.

And yes, the rumors I have seen all center on the Texas street agent Baron Flenory Jr. who formerly played for Chip Kelly at NH. The athletes I have heard mentioned with Flenory are Lache Seatrunk, LaMicheal James and Anthony Wallace.

But again, I have not seen anything on the original source of all this stuff. It is just floating around the internet. So who knows?

EDIT: Here's an article from the Oregonian today. I didn't realize that Cowherd started in Portland. Interesting.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindducksbeat/2011/03/oregon_ducks_rundown…