Another Good Game for Trey Burke
13 points, 9 assists, 2 rebounds & only 1 TO against the excellent defense of the Pacers
December 4th, 2013 at 11:31 PM ^
December 5th, 2013 at 3:42 AM ^
Well, it's not like Dumars has been wrong thus far.
KCP and Burke have both been shooting poorly from the field, but KCP is quickly developing into an elite wing/guard defender, something the Pistons sorely need and Burke will never be.
Burke also missed the first 11 games this year, which would have been killer for the Pistons. He's had 3 nice games in a row, but so has Kentavious.
You also have to factor in Kentavious' defense doesn't show up on the stat sheet, and he's also the 5th option on the team, whereas Burke is asked to be the number 1 or 2 option.
The Pistons also didn't draft him because they were working on a trade to bring in Brandon Jennings, who has been top 5 in assists this year.
You can go back to the NBA draft thread and see me commenting, "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!" several times when they passed on Burke, but KCP was not a bad pick. Then when you factor in his value defensively, and that there aren't many solid 2s, compared to a million amazing point guards, plus the Jennings trade....it wasn't a bad pick by any means.
December 5th, 2013 at 10:30 AM ^
A lot of basketball fans forget that half the game and thus half your value as a player is on the defensive end.
December 5th, 2013 at 12:48 PM ^
You can defend the KCP pick in basketball terms. It wasn't the worst pick in the world in terms of helping the team. But in terms of giving the team a shot in the arm in terms of fan interest, it was a mistake. I was once a big Piston fan but have become totally apathetic in recent years. That would have changed if they'd drafted Burke. I would have watched him any chance I could. I would have considered buying tickets to go to games. That is not the case now. KCP doesn't move the needle for me. It's nothing against him - it's just not enough to make me care about the Pistons again. I know quite a few people who feel the same way.
December 6th, 2013 at 3:52 AM ^
I'm sorry, JM, but this is just a shit argument.
Winning brings back fans, not drafting Michigan or Michigan State players so the Pistons can run gimmicky fan night stuff like, "Hey! Look! Come see your favorite former Wolverines and Spartans in the NBA!"
Just win, baby. If you win, the fans will come back.
Drafting a player purely for the purpose of receiving a temporary boost in eyeballs is just pathetic. Plus, Burke was hurt for the first 11 games, so, "Oops, people don't care anymore!"
And I'm sorry, but if you claim to be a basketball fan, and a Pistons fan at that, and you can't get excited about this guy:
It's over for you. I'm sorry. Hit the road, Jack. Don't even come around here no more. He is the future, in case you haven't been paying attention.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:35 PM ^
December 5th, 2013 at 9:47 AM ^
who won NBA championship in his tenure and has essentially his hands tied due to the owner situation with Davidson death and his wife not wanting to do anything with the franchise.
He has made some bad moves, but he's not one of the worst GM in the league.
December 5th, 2013 at 10:58 AM ^
The Pistons were sold two years ago to Tom Gores. Dumars has had a free hand since then.
December 5th, 2013 at 12:38 PM ^
Tons of luck went into building that Championship team. Billups and Wallace were both available at the right time for the right price and both made huge jumps in production. Then they were able to steal Wallace in a late salary dump. Prince, Rip and Okur were nice pickups.
On the other side of the ledger we have Darko, the Rip extension, the Billups trade, Ben Gordon, Charlie V, dumping Afflalo for nothing, the Prince extension, Austin Daye, Brandon Knight, DJ White, Carlos Delfino, Rodney White, Mateen Cleves, Michael Curry, John Cuester, Lawrence Frank, etc, etc.
December 6th, 2013 at 3:53 AM ^
I like how you left out drafting Monroe and Drummond.
You could also spend several paragraphs detailing all of the great trades Joe D has made that have worked out in the Pistons' favor, but you've elected to gloss over that as "luck."
Funny how when you assume every positive thing a person has done is "lucky" and every negative thing they've done is, "the real them," you can make them look bad.
If Joe Dumars is a terrible GM, then like 90% of the GMs in the NBA are terrible.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:39 PM ^
December 4th, 2013 at 11:57 PM ^
December 5th, 2013 at 1:45 AM ^
December 5th, 2013 at 8:01 AM ^
Depends on what your personal seat donation is for that event. Put me down for the Victors level.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:40 PM ^
December 4th, 2013 at 11:45 PM ^
There have been several articles about how he is quickly developing into an elite defender. Like Burke he started out the year struggling with his shot, but he has been shooting extremely well his last few games.
He is basically doing everything that the Pistons have asked him to do.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:43 PM ^
December 5th, 2013 at 8:40 AM ^
December 4th, 2013 at 11:43 PM ^
Pope has been fine for the Pistons, and while I like Burke a great deal I'm not sure he'd be any better on this team than Jennings. I'm happy for Burke that he is having a good start to the year, but that doesn't mean Dumars screwed up not taking him.
December 4th, 2013 at 11:52 PM ^
BAN
(not really)
(BUT MAYBE)
December 5th, 2013 at 9:57 AM ^
December 5th, 2013 at 11:59 AM ^
Insightful.
December 5th, 2013 at 12:19 AM ^
Wrote this in the last thread. KCP is playing very good defense these days and Pistons are being rewarded. Pistons just won their third in a row. KCP has the potential to be a much needed 3 and D guy for us. We won't know who is a better NBA player for years between KCP and Burke. I obviously am rooting for both of them.
December 5th, 2013 at 12:39 AM ^
12 shots to get 12 points. Trey needs to work on getting to the line. Although he's shooting a bit better, the efficiency numbers are taking a hit because of the lack of FT attempts.
December 5th, 2013 at 2:45 AM ^
He also had 9 assists against 1 turnover.
December 5th, 2013 at 12:57 AM ^
December 5th, 2013 at 1:22 AM ^
The Pistons don't need KCP to be a go to scorer. They need him to play good defense and knock down 3s. Something he is more than capable of doing. The defense is key. The Pistons have 0 good perimeter defenders outside of KCP.
They have Andre Drummond, Greg Monroe, Josh Smith, Brandon Jennings, and Rodney Stuckey for scoring. Scoring is not a problem for this team. They are dead last in the NBA this year in defensive effective field goal percentage.
Edit: Also, let's be frank, if KCP had missed the first 11 games like Burke, if he were putting up the same numbers as Burke, and the Pistons were 4-16, people would be saying, "Wow, what a bust! Horrible pick by Dumars! Should have drafted Burke."
December 5th, 2013 at 1:23 AM ^
December 5th, 2013 at 1:34 AM ^
Do I think Stuckey can lead the team deep into the playoffs? No.
Do I think if Burke were the point guard he would lead this deep into the playoffs? No.
Why? Because this team is not a 2nd round playoff team. I mean, maybe they are, but that's only by virtue of the fact that the East is atrocious.
Burke has also been shooting pretty poorly from the field. Right around the exact same percentage as Brandon Jennings and KCP.
As a result of not drafting Burke we were able to land both KCP and Jennings, which would not have been the case had we gotten Burke.
Also, as a side note...Stuckey has been good this year. He's been in the early conversation for 6th man of the year, so I'm not sure why saying he is a 6th man is an insult. He would be starting on a lot of teams, and had we drafted Burke he'd almost certainly be our starting 2 guard.
Edit: Also, also, why do you just get to assume Burke will be an elite perimeter player? Can I just assume for the sake of argument that both Jennings and KCP will turn into elite perimeter players thereby negating that statement? If so, they will both turn into elite perimeter players. Cool beans.
Also, also, also...playoff teams need elite perimeter defense, which KCP is proving he can provide but Burke probably cannot. He will probably never be more than an average defender due to his athletic limitations and size.
December 5th, 2013 at 2:07 AM ^
December 5th, 2013 at 2:37 AM ^
And 67% of statistics are made up on the spot.
Through 20 games Burke has shown he can't shoot, is not a good defender, and is injury prone, but I'm not willing to sell him down the river just yet.
Jennings has been solid this year. Top 5 in assists. He's by no means perfect. He's still working on improving his shot selection, which is something he's done if you've been paying attention and watching games.
Brandon's main problem is that he is bad at finishing around the rim. He also doesn't have a right hand. If he works on those two things (easily fixable) his fg% will improve dramatically.
People said Chauncey was a bust.He was a guy who had been floating around the league. Not saying the same thing will happen here, but it's possible. Jennings' problems are not a lack of skill. They are mental and style of play. They are fixable.
Stuckey doesn't lead the team. Andre Drummond is far and away the team's best player. Next is Greg Monroe. Then JSmoove. Those are the guys that will have to lead this team regardless of whether we drafted Burke or not.
The Pistons future is tied to Drummond and Moose.
Burke's shot selection has been questionable at times. He's been known to jack up some pretty long 3s with a ton of time still on the shot clock (the Brandon Jennings special). He's also not great finishing around the rim.
This team needs to make the playoffs this year or Joe Dumars is getting fired. Brandon Jennings and KCP give the Pistons a better chance of that than just having a rookie point guard in Burke who was injured for the first 11 games of the season.
I wish the Pistons have drafted Burke, but drafting KCP was not a bad decision.
Because people love Trey they are just assuming he's going to be as good in the NBA as he was at Michigan. He could be great. He could be a bust. So far he's been injured, hasn't shot well, and is averaging like 4 assists per game on the worst team in the NBA.
If anything, Pistons fans should be pissed they didn't draft Michael Carter-Williams. That dude has been tearing it up, and is probably the odds on favorite to win rookie of the year at this point.
December 5th, 2013 at 8:31 AM ^
December 5th, 2013 at 9:20 AM ^
I think his point was that if you look at just 20 games, you could make ridiculous claims about why Trey Burke is not good and that it is too early to make any judgement on either player.
December 5th, 2013 at 1:54 PM ^
December 6th, 2013 at 3:29 AM ^
I like how you totally missed my point.
I was being facetious with my criticisms of Burke, much in the same way that a lot of people on the board have been unnecessarily harsh in their criticisms of KCP (Markovits was right on the money).
Also, we've been through 20 games. That's a fact. And I can most definitely hold missing those 11 games against Burke, because lord knows people on the board would have held missing the first 11 games against KCP had Burke been healthy all year.
December 5th, 2013 at 10:05 AM ^
San Antonio Spurs ring a bell for ya? Manu has been arguably their best player on the team and he came off the bench.
December 5th, 2013 at 11:09 AM ^
he should show flashes of being a great offensive perimeter player while being on a team where he is the fifth option? The four guys a head of him are all-stars or potential all-stars. The beauty about KCP is he pressures the ball and has some height and athleticism. I actually think Dumars made the right move here.
Your starting 5 if you drafted Burke is
Burke, Stuckey, Smith, Drummond and Monroe.
I personally don’t like having a 6’5 Stuckey (really about 6’3) being my tall guard or a starter.
The starting 5 with KCP drafted is
Jennings, KCP, Smith, Drummond, and Monroe with Stuckey finding a role as a versatile of the bench guy. That lineup has 3 extremely athletic defenders on it with excellent height and length. The only real defensive weaknesses are Monroe (which is a bit overblown) and Jennings, who is going to finish the year as one of the top assists guys in the NBA.
Also the eventual test to see if Burke reaches his potential is how his style translates to the NBA. I kept hearing draft analyst worry that Burke’s style and size put him at high risk of injury sense he creates so much contact. Over the next 3-5 years let’s see how Burke holds up. I hope he is a great pro, but I am pretty happy with KCP.
December 5th, 2013 at 2:25 PM ^
"Burk is never going to be a 50% shooter, but his shot selection is rarely in question where as a large percentage of Jennings shots are so bad that they are basically turnovers."
Yet somehow Burke barely has a better eFG% Jennings.
Jennings averages 5 more TO per 100 posessions - but he also averages almost 8 more assists per 100 posessions.
December 5th, 2013 at 1:02 AM ^
Watching Burke (I bought League Pass), I'm reminded of why the Pistons SHOULD HAVE drafted him. While he will never be an elite defender, he is a fantastic passer, has ice in his veins when it comes to making the clutch shot, and has been holding his own on defense. He still has a lot of work to do, but he is looking like the same guy who led us to the NC.
You can talk about "fitting pieces together," but this year of Michigan basketball shows just how much Trey's leadership brings to the table. Now THAT'S something that doesn't show up on the score sheet.
December 5th, 2013 at 2:35 PM ^
"and has been holding his own on defense."
Currently giving up 110.1 pts/100 posessions according to NBA Defensive Rating stats.
...about 6 points/100 posessions worse than Brandon Jennings, and one of the worst starting PG in the NBA on that stat.
December 5th, 2013 at 1:32 AM ^
I'm sorry but when you have the 8th pick, you don't look for a defensive guy who can hit some 3 pointers for you. You're basically describing Bruce Bowen, who went undrafted.
When you have the 8th pick, you better get someone who can do more than play defense. I'm glad Pope is doing something well. But geez, if you want an elite wing defender, the 8th pick of the first round isn't the place to go shopping for it.
December 5th, 2013 at 2:09 AM ^
I'm pretty sure had people known Bruce Bowen was going to be Bruce Bowen, he would have gotten drafted 8th or so in 1994.
The guy was the best perimeter defender in the NBA for a long time. Pretty sure the Pistons (and several other teams) have won a few championships with elite perimeter defenders that can knock down 3 pointers, who play extremely intelligent basketball...
Also...
The 6th pick that year was Sharone Wright.
The 7th pick was Lamond Murray.
The 8th pick was Brian Grant.
And the 9th pick was Eric Montross.
Yikes...
Hell, the last 10 #8 picks have been KCP, Terrence Ross, Brandon Knight, Al-Farouq Aminu, Jordan Hill, Joe Alexander, Brandan Wright, Rudy Gay, Channing Frye, and Rafael Arujo. Based on that I'm pretty sure teams would kill for a Bruce Bowen type player with the 8th pick.
December 5th, 2013 at 10:09 AM ^
at 1st round are busts. Look at the past drafts, it's astonishing that it's been that bad. If you can get an elite shooter with elite defense, teams would take that every time at #8 overall. People wants superstar, but that's rare. Getting a Paul George this late in the draft is rare and you shouldn't expect that. The expectation is can he contribute to the team in a positive way. If yes, he'll be an useful player. Depending on the strength of the draft, if you have a top 3 pick, you should expect a superstar.
December 5th, 2013 at 3:41 AM ^
December 5th, 2013 at 8:40 AM ^
December 5th, 2013 at 3:47 AM ^
December 5th, 2013 at 6:12 AM ^
If anyone is interested, NBA.com actually does an excellent job of charting player stats. Trey's profile is here - http://stats.nba.com/playerProfile.html?PlayerID=203504
So far, he's averaging about 27 minutes per game, and in that time, 12.6 points, 3.3 rebounds and 4.1 assists per game. According to NBA.com, in his 8 games, he has accumulated 101 points, 26 rebounds and 33 assists. Not really a bad start to an NBA career.
December 5th, 2013 at 9:09 AM ^
Trey definitely looked good. Utah played out of their ass last night and the Pacers still won pretty comfortably. I am a Pacer fan forever, and I am loving this team, such good defense, deep bench, really good stars. Hopefully we can get to the finals this year. A San antonio vs Indiana finals would be a ratings nightmare, but it might be the best series in a while.
December 5th, 2013 at 9:15 AM ^
Dont know if it was noticed/mentioned, but did anyone take a look at Hardaway's last game? :)
December 5th, 2013 at 12:27 PM ^
When people talk about KCP, it's often "well he's a good defender" which is sort of like "but he's got a nice personality". You don't spend a lotto pick on a defender and spot up shooter.
What was and is intriguing about Burke is his intangibles. There are things that just don't show up when you're measuring a guy's size, strength, speed, etc. He doesn't have all the prototypical tools you'd want in a point, but he often found a way to do great things and be clutch when it mattered. And some of his early performances indicate he translates to the NBA and the "shortcomings" on the scouting report may not hold him back.
KCP is all right, I just don't think he has the potential to be special like Trey does.