I Like Burgers

August 24th, 2015 at 11:31 AM ^

For as much as we shit on Dave Brandon for all the program's ails, Lloyd Carr deserves a huge share of that too.  His recruiting classes at the end of his tenure were garbage, his coaching tree was inept, he nuked Rich Rod's time here which set the program back, and according to this excerpt he supported Hoke over Harbaugh back in 2011. Ass. Hole.

lunchboxthegoat

August 24th, 2015 at 11:38 AM ^

The difference is Lloyd ran as clean of a program as you can for 13 years meanwhlie wining our only modern era NC, 5 BTT and being a fantastic representative of the program.

He's got some cache to offset those things. 

Brandon contributed virtually nothing to the program and could have easliy overruled Lloyd -- he was the AD for R'hllor's sake. 

Lloyd's not perfect and I'm not thrilled about a lot of his tenure and afterwards but he's still a top 3 coach for us all time. 

Everyone Murders

August 24th, 2015 at 11:51 AM ^

While you point out the funniest line of the excerpt in the OP, the really sad thing is that Brandon seemed leery of Harbaugh because he was afraid that Harbaugh's star would outshine Brandon's  So he hired Hoke, and we saw how that worked out.

That's on Brandon, not Carr.  Carr had a few flaws and did not handle the RichRod succession well at all (mostly by damning RichRod with no visible show of support, IMO).  But I don't blame Carr for being pissed about the 2007 quotes from Harbaugh re: Michigan academics.  Those quotes pissed me off, too.  (In part because there was more than a grain of truth in them.  But in larger part because I think it's pretty bush league to strike out at your alma mater like that.)

For all of that, a competent AD should know how to build bridges and mend fences.  Brandon only knew how to blow up bridges and tear through fences. 

saveferris

August 24th, 2015 at 12:55 PM ^

Not getting Jim Harbaugh in 2011 may be the best thing for us.  If Brandon had succeeded in getting Harbaugh to return in the 2011, how long is it before the dynamic between them turns into another version of Jerry York and Harbaugh?  It's easy to see Jim getting fed up with Brandon's bullshit and bailing out on Michigan after 3 or 4 season, regardless of results and we're back looking for a new candidate and having chased the best possible one away forever.

At least with the situation we have now, I think we've got a good chance of keeping Jim around Ann Arbor for 7 or 8 seasons, if not for the rest of his career.  It's frustrating to think how we've wasted the past 4 seasons, allowing our enemies to strengthen their positions at our expense and make closing the gap with them that much more difficult, but in the long run, I think we'll be better for it.

BlueMan80

August 24th, 2015 at 1:33 PM ^

I think you are right.  Brandon could not have handled being in Harbaugh's shadow and I'm sure Harbaugh would not be happy dealing with a guy who is going to implement his own ideas, whether they are bad or not.  I don't see Harbaugh dealing well with a crew of Dave's "yes men", either.  I'm sure Dave would paint Harbaugh as the bad guy when he left, too.

unWavering

August 24th, 2015 at 1:37 PM ^

The overall conclusion here should be that we should have hired a competent AD in 2010, who then would have hired Harbaugh. Or hell, we should have hired Harbaugh in 2008. If we had done that, he may have moved on by now, but the last 7 years would have gone much smoother and we'd be in a lot better shape than we are now, regardless of who the coach in 2015 would be.

unWavering

August 24th, 2015 at 1:06 PM ^

While I agree that Carr was less than accepting of Rich Rod's tenure, what in the hell would support from Carr have done for Rich Rod? Would we have won more games? Probably not. Would Rich Rod have been given another year or two? Probably not, since Dave Brandon was the AD and Dave Brandon does what Dave Brandon wants. Would the administration have given Rich Rod more money for a DC? Maybe, but I have my doubts.

I guess that the point I'm trying to make is that Lloyd had no part whatsoever in Rich Rod's demise. Maybe the attrition would have been slightly better had he been supportive, but that wouldn't have saved that 2008 season and didn't matter after that.

Reader71

August 24th, 2015 at 2:08 PM ^

And Hoke's tenure further proves the fallacy. Coach Rod should have gotten more support. But Hoke got all the support possible and still failed. In the end, you've gotta coach football players on a football field. A lack of support certainly makes it harder, but the presence of support doesn't make a single block or tackle.

If Coach Rod would have won 6 games in 2008, he would have created the support. If Hoke won 8-9 games last year, he would have maintained his support.

Imagine if people were still sore over Harbaugh's academic comments and weren't fully behind him. Do we think that would stop him from succeeding? I doubt it. He's too good of a coach to let that happen.

Ronnie Kaye

August 24th, 2015 at 6:47 PM ^

Rich Rod is 10x the coach Hoke is. There is no "proof" at all in this because it's impossible to quantity how many more games RR would have won if he had the proper support levels and you're free to believe that number would be zero but I strongly disagree.

Reader71

August 24th, 2015 at 8:14 PM ^

Your math seems off. If Coach Rod is 10 coaching units better than Hoke, but Hoke has the better record at Michigan, you seem to suggest that support of the old guard is worth at least 11 coaching units. That I cannot abide.

Reader71

August 24th, 2015 at 10:43 PM ^

That's besides the point, though. Nowhere in there did I deny that Coach Rod was the better coach. But you seem to want to blame everything on lack of support. If that's true, coaches aren't very valuable at all. His superior coaching was worth less than Lloyd Carr's blessing.

It tickles me when someone accuses others of ignoring context while blaming the failure of an entire program on one factor.

They both failed. Its not like one was Lombardi and the other Marinelli. Couple of Fontes's.

Brodie

August 25th, 2015 at 9:35 AM ^

so

let me get this straight

the reason RichRod could not beat Purdue at Michigan is entirely down to the fact that a bunch of fat old men didn't give him their personal blessings? Am I understanding this? 

RichRod failed at Michigan because he recruited poorly, was a deer in the headlights on defense without Casteel and when we gave him lots of money to get a DC he chose GERG and because, honestly, I kind of feel like his heart wasn't completely in it after making a mercenary move away from his alma mater. Lloyd's support changes none of these things. 

mtzlblk

August 25th, 2015 at 10:45 AM ^

one with RR trending upward from nothing at three different schools, and one with Hoke trending downward our flat lining everywhere he coached.

Oh, and one of those guys generated a new offensive scheme that has revolutionized the game....guess which one.

They are in completely different leagues as coaches....not even close.

pescadero

August 25th, 2015 at 3:10 PM ^

That is some real quality logical anlysis there.

An almost perfect example of the logical fallacy known as "denying the antecedent".

 

Like this...

If you behead the King, then he will die.

You won't behead the King.

Therefore, the King won't die.

 

Hoke failing with support says absolutely ZERO either way about whether Rodriguez would have failed if given the same support.

 

 

MGlobules

August 24th, 2015 at 2:15 PM ^

RR. And I say that as someone who was a huge Carr homer (who remains a big fan of Rich).

The eternal mystery to me is that Carr supported--even plumped for RR--at the beginning. The turnaround remains just weird as hell to me. Was it ego? Was it something he learned? Something valid? Appreciate anyone's insight. . .

unWavering

August 24th, 2015 at 3:24 PM ^

I've read Three and Out, and the only thing I can remember Carr doing to "undermine" Rich Rod is telling players he would support them if they chose to leave the program. And like I said, had a couple more players stuck around, it wouldn't have made a whole hell of a lot of difference in 2008 anyhow. Ryan Mallet would not have stuck around either way, and he was the biggest key to the season.

Is there anything that I'm forgetting that Carr did that directly affected the football team?

ElBictors

August 24th, 2015 at 5:54 PM ^

That's what I recall - Carr saying he would sign off on those wishing to transfer and especially for a guy like Mallett who would have taken one look at the WVU offense (with his Dad) and moved on to a more pro-style scheme (which he did).

This statement or acknowledgement by Carr at some point turned into "Carr told players to leave Michigan and told recruits to sign elsewhere to screw over Rodriguez."

 

Big difference, IMO

MGlobules

August 25th, 2015 at 12:57 PM ^

in many ways, chief among them by quietly encouraging his guys not to help. The point came when the AD was letting RR swing in the wind, and a lot of that was quietly encouraged by Carr. Bacon goes into considerable detail about this; across the u, a lot of it owed to antagonism toward the spread. But why Carr encouraged the hire, then did an about-face is still a mystery. Would be interesting to put this question to Bacon.

 

Brodie

August 25th, 2015 at 9:41 AM ^

Yes, yes, if only Lloyd had done the honorable thing and told those players to go fuck themselves and that they were stuck at Michigan forever with a coaching staff or offensive system they weren't comofortable with. Because the real victim here is the 40something millionaire coach, not the 19 year old looking to preserve his 0.0005% shot at being making the pros.

Brodie

August 25th, 2015 at 9:41 AM ^

Yes, yes, if only Lloyd had done the honorable thing and told those players to go fuck themselves and that they were stuck at Michigan forever with a coaching staff or offensive system they weren't comofortable with. Because the real victim here is the 40something millionaire coach, not the 19 year old looking to preserve his 0.0005% shot at being making the pros.

Clarence Boddicker

August 24th, 2015 at 11:26 PM ^

Yeah, I really don't get the pining for the 'lost' potential of the Rich Rod years. He wasn't undone by a lack of support. He was undone because of his poor recruiting and his crappy defenses--it's not like Lloyd Carr stuck a gun to his head and demanded that he not recruit any offensive lineman at all, or linebackers who could correctly diagnose plays, or defensive backs who could cover people. Rich Rod would not have succeeded here with the support some claim he was denied, and, further, I'm certain that his current Arizona team--a strong offense, but middling in toto and entrenched the 2nd tier of big players in the PAC 12 because of his inability to field a decent defense--is his ceiling as a coach.

When Michigan hired him I thought it was a mistake. I was still a couple of years from that magic day when I was accepted to Rackham and wasn't an M fan yet--I believed this because I felt his record as the WVU coach was largely illusionary. WVU only began dominating the Big East and to emerge as a national player --after Miami (YTM) and Boston College left for the ACC. I actually had the chance to roadtrip to a game in Morgantown with a B.C. alum friend to watch B.C.'s last game against WVU as a Big East member, and the beat down B.C. put on the 'Eers--led by a power run game WVU simply couldn't stop and which kept Rich Rod's high-powered offense on the sidelines--resembled nothing so much as the beat down Wisconsin put on us in Rich Rod's last go round at the Big House, which I also saw live. The flashbacks that day... Anyway, after all the pain of his time in A2, and Hoke's, we got the right guy at the right time. No reason to pine for what-might-have-been with Rich Rod. Because it wouldn't have been.

BigBlue02

August 25th, 2015 at 2:26 AM ^

Considering he did more at WV than he has at Arizona, it's pretty dumb to say what he's done at Arizona is his ceiling. Although I would take a coach whose ceiling is multiple BCS games and competing for national championships. Also, his offense last year featured a freshmen QB and RB and his defense had the best player in the Pac 12, but you can go on thinking that was his ceiling

Brodie

August 25th, 2015 at 9:47 AM ^

well, if you bothered to actually read his post he's mainly saying that RR's WVU record was inflated by the Big East devolving into a conference where South Florida and Rutgers were legitimate contenders and that when faced with real competition on a weekly basis he'll always top out in the second tier... able to hang in with the biggest dogs for a while before eventually collapsing. 

It wasn't until BC left the conference in 2005 that West Virginia broke the 8 win barrier. 

lilpenny1316

August 24th, 2015 at 12:07 PM ^

Bo, Yost, Crisler would top the list in no particular order.  

But I think you could argue Lloyd as one of the top 3 coaches during his tenure.

Tressel

Stoops

Carr

I would include Bobby Bowden, but he coached in a dumpster fire of a conference for a better part of the time Lloyd was coaching.  Once the ACC expanded, they became quite average.

You got Saban, Miles, Urban and others, but they took over talented teams.  Tressel and Stoops took over teams trending downward and we were coming off two 4-loss seasons.  And people we already losing confidence in Moeller.  I love Gary, but a lot of Mo supporters and Lloyd bashers seem to forget that.

BigBlue02

August 24th, 2015 at 1:46 PM ^

The lack of viable QBs and DBs was alarming. And those numbers wouldn't be nearly that with all the departures. Yes, a chunk of guys left when RR got here. That can be expected when going through a coaching change as drastic as ours at the time. What can't be expected is the ridiculous number of players in those classes that didn't even make it to when RichRod was hired. Those classes were depleted well before the coaching change

Naked Bootlegger

August 24th, 2015 at 2:02 PM ^

Mallett was 5* future NFL pick. Sure, he was a headcase.   But he would've been a sure-fire 2-3 year starter if not for the Rich Rod transition.   I'll take a QB string of Brady, Henson, (Gutierrez), Navarre, Henne, Mallett any day (not counting Dreisbach and Griese since Lloyd "inherited" them as HC).   

lilpenny1316

August 24th, 2015 at 2:41 PM ^

But I get your point.  I think Mallett could've started the next 2-3 years here.  Rich Rod's spread started out as a pass first spread, then transitioned to more of a running spread.  I think Rich Rod would've known not to tinker with that much talent.

Brodie

August 25th, 2015 at 9:53 AM ^

he could have easily run that kind of spread with Threet but he instead chose to try and shoehorn Nick Sheridan into the Pat White role. Why are we supposed to believe he had ne plan for Mallett so we could win right away but without him he was totes kewl with going 3-9? 

mtzlblk

August 25th, 2015 at 10:40 AM ^

Mallet was transferring way before Rodriguez was hired.....Carr hated him, everyone on the team hated him, he hated Ann Arbor.

It is a documented and Well known fact that Mallet was gone, no matter what happened.

Can we please stop with the "RR ran off Mallet, RR's offense ran off Mallet, RR didn't keep, or try to keep Mallet". He was already going to go somewhere where his southern, gum-cracking, scumbag ass would be kissed the way he liked it, no matter how big a douche he was, plain and simple.

BigBlue02

August 24th, 2015 at 2:51 PM ^

Having one QB, a walk on and a transfer freshmen isn't what I would call a good QB situation. Yes, mallet was a better option and great QB. But only recruiting one good QB every four years is what I was talking about. Sorry, should have said "better QB situation," not viable QB.

And having one DB that left early doesn't equal a good DB situation. Decimated defense shows exactly how our recruiting fell off, especially with our defensive backs