StephenRKass

April 13th, 2010 at 11:23 AM ^

And I have no problem with the spread. In fact, I'm very excited and am eagerly anticipating what Fall 2010 will bring with Michigan football.

However, I'd like to hear from more of the coaches on the blog about how well OL players playing in a spread convert to the NFL. I have heard this canard for the last several years, ever since RR came on board. This seems to be one of those memes that takes on a life of its own, with no basis in reality.

Yostal

April 13th, 2010 at 11:25 AM ^

Given the way that Amani Toomer has been popping up on ESPN properties last week, I think he's undergoing a sort of tryout with the WWL for an analyst position. How do you make sure ESPN hires you? One way might be to take strong positions that you can support. Toomer states an opinion that he knows will draw hits and publicity.

For instance, also on April 8, Toomer was on with Ryen Russillo on the Scott Van Pelt Show and he had several strong takes on the McNabb to Washington situation, using his perspective as a long-time NFL East player. I thought he was very clearly trying to make the most of his moment to try and make sure the bosses in Bristol knew he would be a good addition. Whether anything comes of this remains to be seen.

M Go Blue

April 13th, 2010 at 11:26 AM ^

Paul Johnson went to Georgia Tech, and looked at the players he had, and then decided what system he would run. That was cool.

And when he talked about how June Jones went to SMU, and looked at the players he had returning, and then decided what offense he would install. That was cool too.

Magnus

April 13th, 2010 at 11:28 AM ^

I fail to see any "bashing" going on.

The worst thing he said was that he thinks Rodriguez's failure to adapt to his personnel in his first year was "not a sign of a great coach."

Yikes! Release the hounds!

The article is a joke, and so is any kind of overwhelmingly negative reaction toward Toomer (and, pleasantly, the reactions in this thread seem to be pretty level-headed).

Speaking of which, any article that uses "principals" instead of "principles" should be taken with a grain of salt.

JC3

April 13th, 2010 at 11:42 AM ^

I just think it's ignorant when people continue to say "being the spread means you won't go to the pro's!". It's stupid, it's been disproven, and a large percentage of colleges are running the offense so shut up about it.

michgoblue

April 13th, 2010 at 11:56 AM ^

In reading Amani's comments, I think that we should consider the folling points:

1. Amani has been critical of Lloyd in the last. Not sure why he is praising Holtz, as he didn't play for him.

2. Amani has had virtually no affiliation with the Michigan program during the 12 years since graduating. Hasn't spoken to Carr since graduation and has not been to a game during that time either.

3. Despite #1 and #2, Amani was a class act at Michigan, and contributed to some pretty successful teams, so we shouldn't bash him. For those who are too young to remember, he had some awesome games against OSU. (Also, a friend of mine was dating Mecury Hayes, who was roommates with Amani, and they had some pretty freaking awesome parties at their apartment during their offseason. Not sure why this is relevant, but it is to me.)

4. On the "spread players do not transition to the NFL point," this is a common criticism, and Amani is certainly not the first to say this. The zone read spread that RR runs is not akin to the offenses that NFL teams run, and therefore players that excel in that offense may not have as much success in the NFL. This is far from a definite, though (see #6).

5. Despite #4, the zone read spread has proven itself to be pretty damn successful in the college game. As a fan, while I want us to produce NFL talent, my more immediate goal is to see us win games, regularly beat OSU and compete for the B10 title every year. There is no reason to believe that the spread cannot do this.

6. Also despite #4, if Michigan can return to prominance, RR should be able to get the massive linemen and stud wide receivers that would transition to the NFL. Isn't the general excitement over Devin Gardiner related to the fact that aside from being able to run, he can throw the deap ball? I would think that this is only relevant if we are planning on, you know, throwing the deap ball. So I think that Amani may be wrong that you cannot produce NFL talent in a spread offense. I think that Percy Harvin may disagree with him.

michgoblue

April 13th, 2010 at 12:16 PM ^

The following is an excerpt from an interview with Amani in mid 2008. The interview was posted here around that time, as well, I believe:

Did you hear from any of your former U-M teammates or Lloyd Carr after the win? No. The last time I heard a word from Lloyd was when I was playing in a (Michigan) game; it was my last play of my senior year. I caught a touchdown from Brian Griese, and I was walking off the field and Lloyd looks at me, looks at Griese, looks at me again, and goes, “Good throw, Brian.” And that’s the last thing he ever said in my direction.

Did you have a good relationship with Carr while at U-M? I thought we did, but I guess we didn’t. So I don’t know. I wasn’t too upset to see the whole regime change.

Which former U-M teammates do you keep in touch with most? Shoot, I don’t keep in touch with any of them.

Will you reach out to the athletic department to get more involved, or are you waiting to hear from Rich Rodriguez? You know, I’m not really waiting to hear from him. I think he has enough (to do). I don’t know, I just feel like there’s a lot of guys. (My Giants teammate) Plaxico (Burress) went to Michigan State; he loves Michigan State. They welcome him with open arms. I’m definitely kind of jealous about that … but I don’t really have any ties.

aaamichfan

April 13th, 2010 at 12:14 PM ^

Now that the personnel for the spread is in place, it appears the recruiting strategy has changed. They now seem to be recruiting for a spread run game with pro style passing incorporated.

If I had to guess, they are trying to recreate the offense we used against Florida in the Citrus Bowl. I don't see any reason why we wouldn't be able to produce quality NFL players from that particular system.

Tim Waymen

April 13th, 2010 at 12:00 PM ^

It's lame of Toomer, but he didn't say anything really terrible. I think he seems to be a bit of a type-A personality in general. He didn't have many flattering things to say about Lloyd Carr either. My take is that he wasn't so happy with the end of his career at UM and hasn't had much to do with it since. He doesn't talk like he really cares so much about what's going on at UM anyway.

toomer18

April 13th, 2010 at 12:03 PM ^

Toomer is the Man. Just because you don't agree with what he says about a coach, doesn't make him wrong. He said Lloyd Carr wouldn't even talk to him. He doesn't like the RichRod losing games. Not a big deal.

Laveranues

April 13th, 2010 at 12:06 PM ^

Amani is making an argument here. At this point, it is easier to support his statements than refute them. Rich Rod's offense hasn't worked in the B10 (so far) and he hasn't maximized the talent on the team (so far). Can't really judge the pro-prospect point until some of Rich Rod's guys are eligible for the draft.

"Bashing" someone would be presenting an indefensible criticism, i.e. "Rich Rod is a douchebag."

Firstbase

April 13th, 2010 at 12:17 PM ^

...I was bothered (and still am) that RR didn't try to adapt his philosophy to the players he inherited in year one. Stubbornly allowing a Michigan team that was ill-suited to run his system contributed greatly to the 9 losses. Watching M play was like watching the keystone cops half the time. At Michigan, that's just plain inexcusable. Frankly, I see Toomer's point to some extent. (Although I do detect bitterness in his answers.)

aaamichfan

April 13th, 2010 at 12:26 PM ^

Not that I really want to reopen this can of worms, but do you honestly think, "He could of won 7 or 8 games that first year"?

If so, I'd like to hear the breakdown.

michgoblue

April 13th, 2010 at 12:24 PM ^

I have gone up and back on this, as well. It was plainly obvious that the personnel that RR had during his first year was ill suited to run his spread, and that the result might have been better had RR run a pro-style offense. That said, how many games were we going to win with Nich Sheridan at QB and an almost entirely underclassman O-line? Not to mention our lack of elite running backs or gamebreaking WRs (assuming that, of course, Sheridan would have been able to get the ball to those receivers even if those receivers got open).

I think that RR made the decision that the first year was going to be a transition year, and that there was nothing to be gained by waiting a year to start implimenting his base offense. All that this would have accomplished was a slightly less painful 2008 (maybe 4 and 6, 5-7?), and an even slower transition in 2009. Last year would have been transformed into the year where the players were "learning the spread" and this year would have been only the second year in that system. The way RR did it, he front-loaded the pain, rather than spreading it over another season.

Again, not sure where I fall on this issue, but just some points to consider . . .

aaamichfan

April 13th, 2010 at 12:56 PM ^

Although it was painful to experience at the time, I don't see how anyone honestly expected RR to run a pro-style offense in 2008. The only thing it would have done is prolong implementation of the spread for another year.

The Summer before the 2008 season, I vividly remember saying to a friend, "Michigan is going to be downright terrible this season." This was before knowing what type of system would be run, and coming from a guy who always predicts the team to be better than they actually are.

I think people need to begin distinguishing myth from reality about the 2008 and 2009 seasons.

The Original Seth

April 13th, 2010 at 12:32 PM ^

Quarterbacks: Steven Threet and Nick Sheridan
True Wide Receivers: Greg Mathews, Laterryal Savoy
Running Backs: Injured Brandon Minor, Injured Sam McGuffie

What players should he have adapted his offense to suit the skills of? What stunning pro-set experience was brought to the table by any of his skill position players?

Either you're an idiot, or you're an asshole. My money's on both.

blueheron

April 13th, 2010 at 1:13 PM ^

Agreed. To those who disagree, jiminy @#$%ing crickets. Look at that skill-player roster again and address Seth's question.

Notice, also, in the article, how the names Henne, Hart, and Long (rather than Sheridan, Moosman, etc.) are cited even though they weren't available in '08. Williamson is playing straight to the shallow "THIS UNACCEPTABLE!!!" pool of UM fans with that line. Subtle, very subtle... not unlike that stupid Caputo sticking Appy State near (if not exactly intersecting with) Rodriguez in his recent anti-UM rant.

Blue2255

April 13th, 2010 at 1:53 PM ^

To me a truely great coach regardless of sport, has the ability to adapt a scheme with talent on hand. That is what we as M fans had seen for for 40 years, Bo, Mo and Carr molded the team around those strengths. With graduation and a constant turnover of players you have to be flexible and not pigeonholed to one way. As much as I cant stand the vest and o$u he is very good at adapting his team year in year out to what he has that season. To me RR has never done that from what I seen at WVU or his first 2 years he albeit a small sample.

BlueTimesTwo

April 13th, 2010 at 2:09 PM ^

How many times has Tressel been forced to start a walk-on at QB? Or at LB? Or at safety? Gee, after 2 years as a starter, Tressel was finally able to figure out how to get productivity of the #1 recruit in the country. What a genius! How hard is it to get someone who is physically a Vince Young clone to make plays?

Njia

April 13th, 2010 at 12:20 PM ^

He brings up Ohio State as running a "version of the spread." And he glorifies the pro-set offense. And says the spread can't work in the Big Ten.

Ummm... Check me if I'm wrong, Sammy, but hasn't it been something on the order of 2,300+ days since we last beat tOSU? And they've been to the BCS how many times (in a row) not to mention the BCS Championship? Talk about hanging yourself with your own rope.

I agree he's not UM or RR bashing here, but his opinion doesn't reveal him to be the sharpest knife in the drawer, either.

ironman4579

April 13th, 2010 at 12:41 PM ^

I have heard several GM's or ex GM's on Sirius NFL radio talking about the difficulty in evaluating spread players. QB's are probably the most difficult, as the throws, reads, etc are much different. WR's are also difficult, as they don't have experience running the full route tree (there are fairly limited routes actually run out of a spread offense). I'm sure there's difficulty for linemen and RB's as well. This could cause some high school kids to think that they must go to a pro style offense to get drafted high (I think this certainly applies to QB's at the moment, but any other position I believe they're being misinformed, or it's a negative recruiting tactic), so I do see Toomer's point there.

That said, simply being difficult to evaluate, or perhaps not preparing a guy as well for the NFL (in terms of simply not being used to a pro style offense, ie. routes, assignments, etc) does not mean a guy won't be drafted high. A great player is a great player, and that guy is going to get drafted in the first or second round if he plays well. The ONLY position on offense that is really hurt by playing in a spread in terms on draft status(at the moment. I think that will start to change) are QB's.

ironman4579

April 13th, 2010 at 11:55 PM ^

Yea, I think he's a little off if he thinks that the spread doesn't produce good Olinemen or high draft picks. It may be more difficult to evaluate them, but in the long run, a good player is going to be a good player. The top 5 rated OT's in this years draft, all with potential to go first round are:

Russell Okung, Oklahoma State (spread)
Trent Williams, Oklahoma (spread)
Bryan Bulaga, Iowa (pro style)
Anthony Davis, Rutgers (pro style)
Bruce Campbell, Maryland (pro style)

The top two guys are from the spread. The interior guys are the same way:

Mike Iupati, Idaho (pro style? I have no idea what the Vandals run)
Rodger Saffold, Indiana (kind of a pistol actually. I know he was a tackle, but it looks like his future is at guard)
John Jerry, Ole Miss (spread)
Jon Asamoah, Illinois (spread)
Mike Johnson, Alabama (pro style)

Most of the interior linemen are from a spread or some variation.

Dave

April 13th, 2010 at 3:26 PM ^

...as a player. But his beef with Michigan is, as far as I can tell, long-standing and entirely one-sided. Kinda weird.

And wasn't he involved in a divorce battle so nasty it made Strahan's look like a love-in? (I only remember allegations that he peed on her clothing after an argument, and another regarding her behavior that I don't care to repeat because it was so horribly sad.) I only raise it to make the point that he has issues and they don't have anything to do with the maize n' blue.