So by your logic, how do you explain Bama's success? Or LSU's? Or Stanford's?
Mike Lantry, 1972
So by your logic, how do you explain Bama's success? Or LSU's? Or Stanford's?
DB and the powers that be embody some sort of control over every detail down to the very plays that are called.
I have heard whispers like that in the past (former players) that there is some kind of powerful alumni force behind everything.
I certainly hope and don't think that's the case. I can tell you that when I was in close quarters with Loeffler, DeBord, Carr, etc. they weren't backing down from calling plays or discussing what Bill Martin or the alumni would think of their play calling.
OTOH, Carr did plow through two OC's within a few years.
But if you know something that we all don't, thank you for sharing. I hope you are wrong.
I see it as a lot of misfortune. We could have had Brian Kelly, but Brian Kelly is an asshole, so not everyone wants him here.
Would I have taken the good with the bad on him? Probably.
But you never know with that guy. He strikes me as about as loyal as a shark in a feeding frenzy.
If an NFL team came calling, who's to say he wouldn't bolt?
It's extremely bad luck that Urban happened on a personal crisis/meltdown and decided to come back exactly when OSU had a vacancy. He is arguably/on route to becoming the most successful coach in the history of the game (depending on your determining factors).
Things certainly don't like good in respect to our rivals right now... but, then sometimes the unpredictable happens.
In the back of my mind, I saw us on the downside of our main rivalries when Kelly and Meyer came into the picture. What a shitty gut feeling to have.
As others have pointed out, there are a couple of teams out there (Alabama, Stanford, etc.) doing some nice things with a more traditional offense. It can be done.
I really don't understand what it is you wanted. Michigan tried a spread coach. In his third year on the job, the team went 3-5 in B1G play with wins over Purdue, Indiana, and Illinois. In the other games we lost 1290834E11 - 46, and then in our bowl game against that "up and coming" Mississippi State squad it actually got worse. But according to you the magic spread was just all of a sudden going to "click" and fix everything? Or maybe there was another spread coach out there you wanted?
Your predictions a decade into the future are worthless. This coaching staff did not have the personnel it was used to when it came in, and yet they've managed to go 19-6. Let's please see what they can do next year before you get all up in arms. That being said, Al Borges is 100% on the hot seat at this point.
Tater, I liked your remarks about "toughness," which I find stupid on the level of "HE DOESN'T UNDERSTAND THE RIVALRY!!!"
But, as others have noted, Manball-intensive offenses can be very successful.
What we should avoid here is a false dichotomy (all Spread / all Manball). No reason they can't be mixed ...
Season isn't over yet. I'll talk about the season in past tense when in fact it is. Got a pretty important bowl game and a chance to pull our all-time bowl record to .500
Beating Georgia, LSU, or A&M would be awesome going into next year.
Yes, I know we played a nationally tough schedule (finally). I know we had tough road losses to stud teams in Alabama, ND and OSU, forgetting the Nebraska game. Our seniors showed plenty of character, and even guys who had been immature grew up and worked hard, so there is that.
Four losses? Let's not tout that for being a very good season. Let's say this: Our team has great potential, as many other teams do. Now, it's up to us to work extremely hard to correct this season's mistakes. Unfortunately, we lose some valuable folks. That having been said, we'll get some good new faces in here.
There are a lot of things that need to be addressed. Let's work hard and address them. We can win big if we reacher higher and work harder. Hats off to our opponents. No trash talk, just plain old hard work!
1996 Michigan lost 3 regular sesaon games and bowl game.....1997......
ND has been stacked with talent for years. Kelley was able to finally make you of that talent. Hoke needs to build up our talent and depth to make us a great team again. I think he will come 2014-15 seasons and beyond!
Did you see that happening at ND?
Nobody saw that for ND either.
At ND the ball bounced the right way for them seemingly everytime... Until they get destroyed in the championship game 35-12 and it won't seem that close
So if you think only spread teams are national title contenders, how do you explain Alabama? That's as pro-style as it gets, and they level everyone in their path.
It's not the system. It's the players in that system. Yes, the game is speeding up, but any offensive philosophy can win a national title. Evan one as conservative as Iowa's. What it comes down to is the players and how well coached they are.
Wow, wrong thread. My bad.
it made about as much sense as half the posts on here anyhow.
I know people always try to put a positive spin on every season. Fact is i though this team would go 9-3. I didnt think they had a chance against Bama n i thought there were four toss-up games. MSU, ND, Huskers, Ohio. I though they would go 2-2 in those 4 games they didnt. I dont think the season was a total fail but u have to remeber we are still recovering form the whole RichRod mess. We won 11 games last year and we assumed the worst was over and it was happy sailing. Fact is were not there yet. I just want to say patience, recruiting and the ability of the coaching staff inspires me for future success. I know Borges screwed up in this game still pisses me off but we just need to be patient. Hopefully we bounce back next season with a 10 win season with a favorable schedule and i would judge the coaching staff on the 2014 season. I think by than the coaching staff will have established the team they want to be and we will be a chamionship team again. Just be pateint and dont jump to conclusions. Some guy called in today saying we should fire Hoke!! Dont be that guy
The fact is our fans have short memories. This team is 19-6 the last two years. The team was 20-5 when TOM BRADY was an upperclassmen at quarterback. And he didn't miss the second half of his senior year due to injury and we didn't lose a game because Drew Henson was playing WR and couldn't help out at QB. We were 19-5 during Desmond Howard's last two years here.
This is as good as it has been in your lifetime outside of 1997 and the 1970's (if you don't count games against good teams from other parts of the country).
"This is as good as it has been in your lifetime outside of 1997 and the 1970's (if you don't count games against good teams from other parts of the country)."
How dare you mess with the heads of Old (and Young) Blues who've been remembering a time that never existed!
What exactly are they remembering?
* Michigan was tough. T-O-U-G-H.
* Coaches understood our big rivalries. (I thought Hoke understood the OSU and ND rivalries, but I guess I was wrong. At least he now seems to understand the MSU rivalry.)
* We ran the ball down the throat of opposing teams and got three yards whenever we needed. None of that pussy passing game.
* We didn't care about playing "in space." We put ten guys on the line and snapped the ball directly to our big hoss of a running back.
* On the other side of the ball, we STOPPED THE RUN.
* We never lost any games.
Our best win was against Northwestern. If we had beaten ND or Bama, ND and Bama wouldn't have been #1-2. I'm still pissed Hoke didn't have a backup QB ready for Nebraska. Hoke did not excrete gold this year and for $2M, it just wasn't good enough for Michigan standards.
From where I sit, I think we lost to everyone that I was worried about, with the exception of Michigan State, and they turned out to be awful. We might have given it a good fight, but we're far from where we need to be.
OT, but there is always basketball ;)
but we lost four games this year, and those four teams combined for a 45-3 record. We were very close in two of those, and another was decided by an injury early. Not really a fan of "moral victories" and whatnot, but I don't think 8-4 really tells the story of this regular season.
That may be but the teams Michigan beat this year were:
Air Force 6-6 (close game)
MSU 6-6 (close game)
Northwestern 9-3 (close game)
I would say that 8-4 does tell the story. Michigan beat up on average teams but could not beat the good teams.
Beating bad teams, losing to good ones. It is the identity that Georgia has had in the ESS EEE SEE for the longest time. It's actually worse for them because their recruiting classes should be worth more than the results they've been getting on the field.
Hoke is starting to recruit that well...hopefully he'll get a better return on his classes than Mark Richt has in Athens.
I do agree that this team has an identity crisis, though. One of the complaints people had with RichRod was that he was trying to run his offense without compromise using (what was left of) Lloyd Carr's talent. Hoke and Borges seem to be doing the same thing, but the results are significantly better. Last year spoiled us a bit. Next year will be better, assuming our recruits aren't all defecting to Columbus or South Bend by the time spring practice begins.
was that M didn't play "good" teams. The schedule was eight games M was favored to win in varying fashions, and then four teams in nationally elite positions at the end of the season.
Nebraska is the closest to good, but Bellomy v. UNL Defense might as well have been Denard v. Alabama. Had we played Wisconsin or PSU or even the top couple ACC teams or USC or someone, that likely would have been a good win. In other words, the schedule was split between bad teams and really, really good teams.
They were right on target for what I and most projected as a season record. My biggest disappointment was the weak OL play. For much of the season our OL has been handled by opposing D lines during running plays. I'm not sure if it was lack of talent beside Taylor or just losing a veteran center Molk? But this will have to change. We need to dominate the line of scrimmage again!
The defense played a lot of bend but do not break. The secondary played well.
Hopefully we'll beat OSU next season at home.
I guess the younger generation is into moral victories. I remember when Michigan was the team you played and said oh well at least we played them tough, but they are just better than us. So what we played 3 real good teams and lost to them all. That is what every other mediocre team would have done. I expect to at least have one marquee win...This year was a disappointment plain and simple. I love the guys we have on our team, but the results just weren't there. This is Michigan fergodsakes.
Why did Jerry Kill draw up better plays then you in the 2nd half and he was having seizures at the time?
J/k get better soon coach
This isn't just to you but we do have another shot at a marquee win - what should be a game in the Capital One Bowl against a Top 10 SEC team.
I don't know about you but I'd call beating an upper echelon SEC team as a big win.
This season will still sting for all the reasons mentioned by other posters but let's remember that from 08-10 we were never competitive in the big games. I was a supporter of the previous staff but that argument did not escape me. Yes we lost all the big games (so far) this year but almost all of them were competitive and could (maybe should) have gone differently.
This was season 2 and Hoke and Co will have to go to the drawing board and figure out what to learn from the regular season.
Make incremental improvements, win the bowl game, ????, profit next season.
I'm proud of the team and the way they fought, and I'm not saying I could have done any better, but this was not a good season.
We failed to produce a quality backup QB when we needed one most.
We lost to what is now the #1 team in the country by a single touchdown, a game we could have won were it not for 6 turnovers. I love Denard, but that performance was inexcusable. 6 fucking turnovers. Just thinking about it infuriates me.
We did not beat Ohio State. Borges' play calling in the 2nd half was pathetic at best.
We did not win a championship. No Rose Bowl.
We failed to produce a quality backup QB when we needed one most.
We can thank one Mr. Darryl Stonum for that one. His final scrape with the law cost him, and us, dearly. Add this one player to the team and this is probably a Big Ten champion.
Overall, the season was a bust. Michigan lost 4 games. All to quality opponents. We lost 2 out of 3 rivalry games. The bright spot was a win over Michigan State. This was a difficult schedule and I suspect OSU would have achieved the same record if they played this type of schedule. Michigan had no running game outside of Denard for the majority of the year and our offensive line didn't improve at all. Still, I can't wait to see the team play in a bowl game and gain victory. I believe better things are in store for 2013.
I'm glad you saved me the time to write this myself! What a major disappointment of a season we just had!!! We could win any big games away from home! Hopefully next year we have a title run. The next 9 months are gonna suck ass like always
Michigan played six games against pretty good to great opponents. We went 2-4 against them.
Alabama was a blowout; it made us look like high-ranked frauds. We went 1-2 against our biggest rivals, and while beating very good ND and OSU teams on the road is certainly difficult, if we don't expect Michigan to win some difficult games, what are we? We really never came that close in the end of either of those games. Also, the Nebraska loss (w/ its QB follies in the 2nd half) was a debacle.
On the flip side, we needed a miracle bomb to get in position to beat Northwestern and a last-second FG (not to mention a great scramble, throw & catch by Denard/Dileo right before it) to beat MSU. We were much closer to going 6-6 than we were 10-2.
But we went 8-4 and I am glad we didn't blow a game against a decent team like Air Force (which Michigan has done in the past) and blew out the bad teams we should (e.g., Iowa, Illinois). But this team had the talent/experience to go at least 9-3 and they didn't get it done. In particular the OL play was MUCH worse than I had hoped (I was only worried about our lack depth; our lack of production/skill with the starters was the problem); same with the RBs. Denard also regressed and while Devin was awesome his first 3 games, he frankly (If understandably) didn't play well against OSU.
It's not a terrible season and this team gave strong effort all year, and they should be proud of it. But don't tell me 8-4, in a year the Big 10 is just horrendous, is a "good" season. This 12-0 OSU team would get beat soundly by their 1995 or 1996 teams that were undefeated until we beat them.
I agree that this wasn't a "good" season, but I don't think we underachieved, either. Basically, we took away Molk, Martin, Hemingway, RVB, Koger, and Countess from the 2011 team, did not add Stonum as expected, and then lost Denard as a functional QB for the final 4.5 games of the season. We didn't have a lot of breakthrough players (Ryan, Funchess, Clark, maybe Taylor) and played a very tough road schedule. 8-4 was right about where we should have finished. 9-3 or better would have constituted overachievement.
I think 9-3 was a very reasonable expectation. I agree we lost significant players from 2011, but we also gained quite a bit (Jake Ryan, Frank Clark et al with more experience; a large % of the offense, including the QB, coming back in their 2nd year in the same system).
We literally beat everyone who we were "supposed" to beat, lost to who we were "supposed" to lose to, and then lost the "toss-up" game to Nebraska. If we had won any one of the 4 games we lost, it would have been a good season (and all except Alabama were definitely in the realm of possibility with better plays/playcalling). But I watched Nebraska against OSU, MSU and Iowa - they are a good team, but nothing remotely special. Whether Nebraska or Wisconsin wins, it will be the worst Big 10 champion in our lifetime.
Ultimately, blowing that game, and our coaches being caught with their pants down, was what made it an underachieving season for me.
Both urban and hoke started in the MAC and coached a decade of football. Urban has won two national titles and had two other undefeated seasons. Hoke has 0 conference titles.
Hoke has 0 top 15 wins. 2 or 3 top 25 wins. This year we were shut out of a td in 10 of the 12 quarters against our rivals. Last yr we went to a bcs game solely because we outdraw Kansas st and finished third in the big ten.
Brady hoke looks like the guy Brian feared he would be and a coach that we got after we were turned own by our top pick. Next year is critical, he has no excuses.
This is ridiculous... We go 8-4 and you are already jumping off the ledge? This coaching staff worked miracles with the defense, and got some bad breaks this year. They deserve better than to have these sorts of attacks lodged at them at this point.
We gotta stay together on this. We all KNOW our team is in better hands than the last regime. The defensive turnaround alone shows we are on the path. Recruiting better players, better students, will lead us down the path to championships. Hoke and co are doing that. Gimme Hoke over Meyer all day, everyday. Anyone else think they will have the same awkward celebration in about ten with Meyer in Ohio they just had with Tressel? Celebrating his record, while making excuses for his not following the rules. Win at all cost mentality is fine if you don't want to look at yourself in the mirror. Winning within the rules, and thru hard work is going to pull us thru...GO BLUE OR GO HOME!
Keep withholding any credit, but they are playing for the National Championship, not only having beat us, but Stanford, USC, and Oklahoma. I think that's a bit better than "marginal."
You're right about Stanford and Oklahoma but I would not call a win against USC this year a quality win. They are rivals so a good win for them but USC is not a nationally relevant team this year.
But probably no worse than us. Back-up QB=6 INT QB. You go cross country to beat a decent rival, it's a good win. Certainly not a great one. But who has 4-5 great wins? Alabama has beaten LSU....annnnddd... Georgia, if they win. Georgia has beaten Florida...and maybe Bama. Kansas State beat Oklahoma. Did Oregon beat ANYBODY? (The 2 games they played against teams that played ND, they did worse). Yet these are all teams that the "eye test" tell us are better, and I kinda think they are too. But or on field accomplishments, teams just don't play and win against 4-5 great teams. The best schedule of the bigs might be Florida. Sure ND's schedule wasn't the gauntlet we thought it was going to be. But it's never easy to go undefeated. And they may get rocked by a better team in a bowl, but they're hardly middling.
This was an awful season. What is the OP smoking?
I'd probably be happier if State hadn't turned out to be a fraud. That was a satisfying win at the time, but now it doesn't make up as much for the close losses (and could have beens).
However, I really love this class of kids. I don't know if I'll be as personally invested in group of players as much as these guys. I really wanted these guys to succeed, and as we get farther and farther from these years, I think everyone will look back and be very pleased with what we had, what we did, and how they did it.
Lewan comes back next year?
Will all depend on what he hears from scouts but the last mock draft I saw had him going in the top 10. No way he comes back if he projects that high. Would simply not be worth the risk of injury.
8-4 as a record is strange... at 7-5 you know you had a bad year and at 9-3 you know you had a good year. At 8-4, nobody really knows what to think and you're sort of waiting for the bowl game to validate you one way or the other.
But anyone calling this season awful probably hasn't been paying attention to Michigan football over the past 30 years. Because this has been kind of average for us over that stretch.
except for 1984