privledges are toilets on a cliff? Please fix and make my comments look dumber than they are annoying. Not easy I know.
I give up blogging for 24 hrs. Time to read books.
privledges are toilets on a cliff? Please fix and make my comments look dumber than they are annoying. Not easy I know.
I give up blogging for 24 hrs. Time to read books.
Explanation much needed...
I think he's mad because OP spelled privilege wrong.
Sorry WTF, iPad doesn't always capture every letter I think I type. I did change the title in a way you won't look "dumber than annoying".
Thanks for adding to the conversation, brah.
I thought toilets on a cliff was kinda funny.
That the blog is worse recently, you, sir, can know it's because of posts exactly like this; grammar Nazi posts that you only just signed up in September to start making.
If he had just posted the bit about toilets on a cliff, it would have been fine. The whole this-is what-makes-this-blog-suck claim is what makes the post douchey. Nazis with a sense of humor are alright; Nazis who act like douchbags are not.
Not to mention anyone who thinks spelling errors are actually what's being complained about by those who think we are in some dark period on these boards is seriously off the mark..
As one who clearly values the English language, you should probably be aware that "blogging" is not synonymous with "reading a blog".
There is nothing he can do to alter that.
Absolutely what they should do. The block seating system is basically a way that guarentees the best seats for only those who are involved in greek life. I'm not against the greek system in any way, but I don't think whether or not you joined a frat should determine what seats you have for football games. That's a stupid system, IMHO.
General admission does nothing so much as to make bad attendance look even worse, by packing all of the attendees into limited space, with big swaths of empty space elsewhere.
I don't get it. I do not understand why anyone thinks that general admission is the answer to any of these problems.
when schools start doing the same things to alumni then I won't believe that this is really about limiting student seating so they can sell the tickets for more money...
then and only then...
ps. If i buy tickets to a jay-z show and don't go do you think Jay-z is gonna withhold my right to buy tickets next tour? Its getting out of hand...
I'm so damn sick of hearing about student ticket policies.
Athletic Departments should sell tickets to students. Students should go to games. Across the country, there seems to be a disconnect somewhere in this pretty simple equation, and it seems no one really wants to get at exactly what that is.
Your last sentence is the one that bothers me about this trend. It's not like the students are some hidden market the athletic department can't access. That's why I find it ridiculous various athletic departments are inacting these petty systems to punish the very people they want to show up. I know it's not popular on this blog, but I have a long career in marketing and not once have I ever thought punishing my target market because they are not purchasing my product was a good idea.
To me, it's a two-way street. Students seem generally more disinterested in college football than they were before. And Athletic Departments (especially ours) are freaking out, so they respond by generally inconveniencing, if not punishing students to try to compensate for the fact student interest is down. It's a vicious circle. When a game at Michigan Stadium is less attractive to a student than standing on a front lawn with a red Solo cup and then staggering inside to catch the TV broadcast, what's going wrong?
So, really, the question isn't the students themselves as much as what is it about the product, the atmosphere, the ticket prices, or even the sport in general that causes kids to want to stay home and watch on TV instead of going to their campus stadium? What makes a kid with a ticket in hand decide not to go? Why is that ticket pretty much worthless on the secondary market if they try to sell it?
Someone made a great comment on this topic a few weeks ago: "Students are simultaneously your best and worst fans."
That's so true. Nobody can bring the passion to the game like the students once they're in the stadium. The problem is getting them in the stadium, on time, and getting them to stay. They are very fickle about that.
At least one of our 15 Marketing MBA's in the AD should find out why they are not coming/coming late/leaving early, and what may entice them to change that.
This might be more productive than dreaming up yet another scheme for sticking a finger in the fans' eyes and separating them from a few dollars in their wallets with things like seat cushion licenses.
If after proper due diligence it turns out that today's kids really are different and there is nothing you can do to get them to attend in earnest, then cater to the ones that do want to show up, and shrink the size of the student section to make up for the ones that don't.
We've had this discussion many times. I can't remember all the reasons, but here are some of them.
We can't go back. Cable TV in high definition is with us. Costs never go down. Society is more and more fractured. There are creative ways to build community, but I don't see this happening at large state universities too often.
"every game is on tv in high definition"
It is literally impossible to see something in higher definition than in person.
I have two teens with driver's permits. When they are driving with me I am constantly asking them "do you know where you are and how to get home?" They could be half a mile from home and have no idea. Same thing happens on the boat out on the lake.
The only reason I can figure is they have never looked out the window at the real world and imprinted that map and sense of location and direction in their heads because they have always been connected or entertained.
A lot of good food included in the meal plan, student involvment (like voting) in the next seating policy (which has to include flexibilty to sit with friends who arrive at different times), and real connectivity in the stadium are probably starters.
Bottom line though, many in this "connected and entertained" generation completely disagree with your statement whether they philosophically admit it or not.
and it really pains me as a person who loves maps and loves figuring out where I am even if I'm lost (but won't admit it). My offspring can navigate their way through complex video games, but one of them (this just happened tonight) could not identify the name of the street his school was located on.
I'll never have another thrill like seeing Denard running towards our endzone in the Western Michigan game. But many might be satisfied watching replays from 4 different angles of it from the comfort of their couch. So, how to convince them otherwise?
I would think the AD's office would be trying to create future addicts/donors/season ticket alumni types. Don't make them stand/sit outside the stadium for many hours just to get in early and get a good seat.
Unless you're near the front, that's not true. You may not be able to see the play live as well as you could with a tv. In fact, how many times do people look to the jumbotron for a live play? I know I have, because the live play was too far away to see what's going on.
I'm not saying tv is better than going to the game, because nothing replaces the atmosphere of being there with 110,000 friends. And seeing the play live in person is actually pretty neat, and obviously something a TV can't really convey.
Michigan, along with a LOT of other places, have overexpanded their stadiums -- both in terms of capacity and amenities (e.g., suites). They did this based on the boom of interest in the 90s & 00s. To justify that expansion, they've raised ticket prices dramatically to pay for it.
Well, it turns out there is not unlimited interest in college football, particularly when games regularly cost $100+ (incl parking) and take 4 hours plus due to frequent time stoppages for commercials. It's a flawed product.
Thus Michigan (to use one example) has expanded its capacity too much. If we were back at 107,000 as the capacity, this issue of a couple thousand students and a couple thousand other folks showing up wouldn't be as big a deal. But the greedy universities built for the OSU and MSU games, and didn't realize (esp with expansion) well over half the games are for opponents people could not care less about (Rutgers & Maryland anyone?)
Along with the "pay the players" movement and head injury concerns, it's going to be interesting times for major college football over the next few years.
Goodbye South Endzone Upper Deck?
Because many of the reasons you include do not apply to students. Parking is not an issue and neither is cost. I say cost is not an issue because they are in fact selling tickets and for almost all students that is the entire cost of the in stadium experience. The problem is why don't they show for the whole game despite spending the money.
Also note that Michigan and most other big time colleges are having little problem selling tickets to the general public. This is probably even more frustrating as they could be selling those student tickets to the public for more money and to people that would show up, but not be nearly as loud.
I'd be a lot happier if they just took away a sliver of the student section, from the field all the way up -- not the top part, and made it more selective to receive tickets. Make attendance and timeliness part of next year's renewal requirements and freshmen girls and frat boys who don't care about coming on time won't get tickets next year. You'll end up with the students who care and show up.
It isn't that there's less demand. It's that there's less demand by students. Economics states -- decrease that supply and you'll see demand shoot up. Take out a chunk and you'll have alums climbing over each other for field tickets and those close by. Students will still have their student section. It will just be commensurately smaller in proportion to their demand/actions.
totally not (reasonable)
College football games -- b/c of TV timeouts and more incompletions due to more passing -- take F-O-R-E-V-E-R. Add in the fact that students (b/c of the new first come, first serve) are "expected" to get there an hour or two early, and you've got block out six hours of your day if you're going to be at the football game from start to finish.
If, instead, a student could drink, relax and dance with her friends at a house party until the game starts (so they can miss the 1/2 hour or more waiting in line), why wouldn't we expect that to happen? It's not what I would do, but there are only so many 'hard core' student fans who want to spend five/six hours at a game, particularly if it's a so-so opponent.
And you're completely wrong about there not being trouble selling to the general public. Look at the "waiting list" (or lack thereof) for Michigan and others. Look at the stub hub prices for any game not against a rival.
They've overexpanded and overpriced the product, generally speaking. It's perfect for MSU and OSU but for the majority of the games, it's overdone.
You seem to be moving all over the place with your reasoning.
First, the stadium expansion was only by 2,400 seats and is unrelated to the student section; it's the same size as it was before. Moreover, the student section sold more tickets this year than it has in many other years - it's at 22,000 this year, whereas it was as smal as 16,000 last decade. Selling tickets to students is not a problem.
Second, StubHub is not a great gauge of general demand for tickets, because 90+% of them are sold in the form of season tickets. The season ticket base has never shrunk to my knowledge. There have always bee a small number of individual tickets for games, and they've always been easy to come by in most games through scalping (or now StubHub). That's not a new development. You could easily get cheap individual tickets for crappy games in the '80s, '90s and '00s.
Finally, even if general admission is a drag for students, that doesn't explain why their attendance was so poor last year, when it wasn't around. The fact that it was so poor last year is why GA is in place now.
This is not about the size of the stadium or the ability to sell tickets. It's about people having tickets and not using them. The hardest part of the job (selling the tickets) is done; getting them to come should be the easier part of the job.
Students can only purchase season tickets. They buy them so they will have access to the big Ohio State/MSU/ND/Nebraska games. They tend to show up pretty well for those games. A little late sometimes, but they do fill up the student section.
The rest of the games are hit and miss. A lot of students are not hard core and don't really care. But they've got tickets on their hands they will not use because they had to buy a season ticket package.
I don't know if single-game tickets for students is a viable option. The AD at least needs to make it easier for students to sell tickets they don't want. Perhaps something on-line where the students can trade back tickets they don't use and non-students can buy them. No game day scalping. The AD could even pocket a small transaction fee (DAVE!).
.....all the late games have something to do with it. I recall most games being at noon when I was a student. You woke up and went to the game. Later games allow plenty of time for mind altering.
Noon games are even worse. They want to alter their minds regardless, and a noon start does not leave much time for it. So they just show up very late or skip the game entirely.
CFB does not take four hours.
When you take into account walking to and from and getting in and out of your section.
Michigan, along with a LOT of other places, have overexpanded their stadiums -- both in terms of capacity and amenities (e.g., suites)
I think you are missing the point here. The issue is not that students aren't buying tickets (which would be an issue of the stadium being too large), but that they ARE buying them but for whatever reason, aren't coming.
"When a game at Michigan Stadium is less attractive to a student than standing on a front lawn with a red Solo cup and then staggering inside to catch the TV broadcast, what's going wrong?"
Göδ-Ðαϖϖì†, students! Pick the BLUE Solo cup!!
So you've never given a volume discount that rewards customers for buying more. Isn't another way to look at that is you price disadvantage (or punish) the customers that aren't good enough ( that is that don't buy enough).
My struggle with this is the students are generally given a price break over other customers. The result is the AD may take less revenue than they could otherwise get. What should the AD get in return for the discount? Support from the students? for developing a bond with students. If that support is not there, then maybe the AD does have rights to take action against students arguably not living up to their end of the bargain.
Students are taking their perk for granted, they're not being taken for granted. There's a difference.
That may be what they are telling ESPN, but block seating was taken away 3 games ago due to an incident that became public where a sorority's alumni prevented a black girl from getting a bid because she was black. The backlash caused the student government to take away all block seating, but then they ended up reinstating it for the non-Greek blocks (pretty much the Student Government, Law School, and a few other groups). The fact is that the non-block seating area empties out just as much as the block seating area, and they are using it as an excuse to eliminate the Greek block seating without drawing more national attention to the fact that the Greek system has had some serious issues come to light regarding racism in the past few weeks.
That's sad and interesting. Do you happen to have a link to a source that discusses the incident?
Just google it. You'll find plenty of info. This incident has been big news for a while now; there was even a lengthy thread about it here about a month ago.
Whoa, very interesting (and ridiculous/sad/etc.). Not to make less of that situation but if what you say is true, I'm not surprised something like this doesn't get to the media to put a black eye on part of the media's cash cow.
I like how Saban calls out the students as if they are part of the team. I like that. Make 'em feel like they have some skin in the game.
They should randomly pick a bunch of kids from the student section each week to go stand on the sidelines and mix with the team and hear the coaches calls. Break down that invisible wall between the students and the team. Make them an actual part of the team, not just disinterested observers.
Might get more of them to show up.
He's got a five star athlete waiting for that spot on the sideline if he doesn't like how the current one stands there.
Let's go with uninterested, though. They are certainly not disinterested because they have a stake in the team winning.
I have to admit, since I've been taking pictures on the sidelines at EMU games, I've had a deeper appreciation for things. Granted it's EMU but still....
that we expanded the size of the student section a few years ago? And if so, how big was it before and exactly how big is it now?
Yes. A quick google search shows at the very least it was expanded in 2002, 2006, (I think) again after that, and then finally by 1000 seats in 2011. There were many years when some student tickets (I think they were grad and medical students, if memory serves) were in an overflow section in the opposite end zone, too.
There used to be a really good Detroit News article that had the specific numbers, but it's no longer online.
Yes. I was a victim of the 2011 expansion. I got kicked out of my longtime seats in Section 34, something I was mightily pissed about at the time. Imagine how even more pissed I was when I looked across the stadium from my new seats in section 18, only to see my old seats and hundreds others around them empty!
I'm over it now because in reality my new seats are much better seats. My main irriation was over being split up from the folks around me I was used to stiiting with. And I enjoyed sitting right next to the student section without actually being in it.
That's quite a rant.
the problem is that 18 - 22 year olds are motivated by sex and alcohol - which is a downgrade from the 60's and 70's of sex, drugs and rock n roll.
I don't understand why people talk about punishing groups of people. This is suppose to be entertainment and support of your school. Part of the issue is that college students, in general, have certain "expectations" for their football entertainment. 1) it needs to be 80 degrees outside. This can be a problem in Ann Arbor. I saw a lot of students last week with their T-shirt only and it rained and was in the 40's (uh - they left). 2) game times need to fit their sleeping habits ... noon games will always be an issue for student attendance.
I tend to agree that the size of the student section needs to be reduced (look at MBB at Crisler Center and the puny size of the Maize Rage section). I don't think it needs to be reduced by much - but by at least an amount that would make going to the game a "priority" for them. I would also sell the upper portion of the stadium to season ticket holders and put the student section lower. Better seats for the students and there wouldn't be as large of an empty area in the stands.
Puny size of the Maize Rage?
The first season I had student tickets for basketball, in the last throes of Amaker, I was sitting in the second to last row of the upper bowl. You didn't get bleacher tickets until you were a sophomore or junior. The last season I had student tickets, four seasons later, there were something like less than 300 season ticket holders. Bleacher tickets were sold to the general public for every single game. They were piling pizzas for us as rewards for actually showing up. It's not like that anymore.
No, the current Maize Rage is not "puny." That was puny.
to the number of seats and rows for the Maize Rage, court side as compared to places like msu or ohio.
But those courtside bleacher seats are not the only Maize Rage seats in the hosue. There are plenty more that you don't see on TV.
So it seems that the real culprit in all of this may in fact be rock-n-roll....
News Flash . . . students have always wanted to drink and have sex. Yet they still also used to show up for 6 or 7 football games a year.
It has been decades since you could drink at the stadium. And as far as I recall, you were never allowed to have sex in the stadium. Yet the students still came to games.
The games have been been televised for decades. The 1:00 game that is not on TV anywhere has not been around for years. Yet the students still came to games.
Students have always had busy schedules and hard courses and limited free time at Michigan. Yet the students still came to games.
So what's changed? There has to be more to it than just high-def TV. It's worth finding out what.
I've ben doing it wrong for a long time....
The AL.com story - HERE - fills in some details about how far this could go.
Essentially, this being the first "offense", they lose the block seating for just this game. If it happens again, they lose it for the rest of the season and, in both cases, take a hit on points for tickets for 2014. The third offense would mean a ban in 2014 as well. Apparently, this is a serious thing in the student seating handbook.
There is also a photo of the student section only sparsely populated during the Georgia State game, which I assume is an example of what prompted this.
When I got to UM in 1971 booze was allowed into the stadium, but capacity crowds were infrequent. From '71 through the '74 season, there were exactly 5 capacity crowds total. I can assure you that the student sections were far from filled, regardless of the fact that we could bring beer and wine in.
They started cracking down on openly bringing booze into the stadium sometime during the '80s or early '90s, by which time we'd already had our string of consecutive games over 100K going for some time. The issues with student attendance have arisen in the last several years.
In other words, allowing booze in the stadium won't cure the problem.
What I'd like to know is the historical record of how many seats have been allotted to the students over the last couple of decades. If it's true, as some assert here, that the student section was increased in size a few years ago, then it would seem sort of obvious that the section needs to be reduced in size to what it had been before.
But it would solve my sober problem.
and force them to play on kick coverage while trying to text at the same time. I'd pay good money to watch the carnage.
They could just stop selling student tickets. Move the GA part of it to the gate and scan the m card for payment at time of entry. The first whatever thousand students would get in untill the section is full. This would at least get a good measure of demand.
I like it. The rest would go scalp a ticket a few minutes before/after kickoff for right around regular price. If you're not early, you pay like everyone else. Great idea!
Unsold student allotment could be sold to the general public after a certain time frame. The marquee could project available tickets to the public based on entrance rates of students.
Remember canham had to be very creative about filling the stadium.
ok, I am fine with what M has done with the student seating, but what Bama has done is stupid. That is a little different IMO. Leaving in the second half when winning big is not as big of a deal compared to M students showing really late or not at all.
If Saban wants students to stay to the end of the game perhaps he should stop winning by 50+ friggin' points.
Even if they shrink the student section, would those tickets sell to the general public? If they keep this Dynamic pricing, then I think not. It's amazing to me that you can still buy tickets to the Nebraska game and Ohio game over at mgoblue.com right now. How are they not sold out yet? It's becasue they are way overpriced. It is pretty sad that you can get tickets cheaper on stub hub than directly from the university. I needed an extra ticket to the Minnesota game and was going to buy one from mgoblue, I said screw it after I found out they wanted a service fee and a transaction fee to go along with the ticket price. Just squeezing as much money out of ticket holders as they possibly can.
So... they are enforcing a rule that is in the ticketing policy (that they haven't been enforcing) to punish students for doing something that against the ticketing policy (ie I highly doubt it says in the ticket policy that the purchaser is obligated to stay the entire game)? Makes perfect sense...
The seats all appear to be singles, so that might be a factor, but I agree that cost must have something to do with it. Singles in the end zones for OSU are $235. That's an awful lot of money to pay to sit by yourself.
I wonder how many of those will be wearing red jersies next month, yelling to their red jersied friends a couple rows away.
I've said it before and got hammered for it, but...
At Michigan, at least, I think a major part of it is the decrease in in-state students. Out-of-state and international students majorly do not have a deep connection to Michigan football. When a growing percentage of your student body doesn't have a deep connection to the state and to the team... well, is it that surprising that they don't care?
You probably got hammered for it because it doesn't make that much sense. OOS students only make up around 35 percent of the student body, was the ratio that much different a few years ago when there weren't attendance "problems"? Also, a huge percentage of OOS students are legacies and thus probably have as deep or a greater connection to the team than the average person who simply grew up in the state. Furthermore, many OOS kids picked Michigan over competing schools because of the combined athletic-academic experience that it offers. Finally, what does having a deep connection to the state has to do with anything?
That's a lot of assumptions based on faulty data.
Your "data" is one year of admissions where the percentage of OOS students increase by a few percentage points?
The total enrollment has increased by over 3.5 thousand in the past 4 years. There is still the same amount, if not more in-state students at Michigan today as there was before the attendance problems started to occur. In the very article that you posted it states that "in 2002 U-M enrolled 1,827 non-resident freshmen, 801 fewer out-of-state students than this year. Also in 2002 overall freshmen enrollment levels were at 5,187 — 984 students fewer than this year. Of the enrollment difference between those two years, roughly 81 percent is comprised of non-resident students." Thus, the amount of in-state students increased by almost 200 kids from 2002-2012.
According to a 2011 Senate Fiscal Agency report, 47% of Michigan students are out-of-state. Up the road, it's 24% at Michigan State. If out-of-state enrollment (which includes international students) has gone up each year since then, what does it say about Michigan out-of-state enrollment? And you're really stretching it with unsubstantiated claims that a lot of them are legacies, etc. There's no way of knowing that.
Point is, OOS enrollment is up at the state's flagship public university.
Okay, but in-state enrollment is also up. The OP's claim was that a declining amount of in-state students was a reason for the lack of attendance. The premise of that argument is false.
And shut the he'll up.
Stupid auto correct
This is an issue I've gone full circle on and have completely changed my opinion on over the past year. Largely through reasoned discourse on this board I'm now in the "pro-student" camp (odd phrasing I know) and think we should address the issue with carrots, not sticks.
First and foremost our current GA policy I insane and actually punished early arrival by forcing seating down low. If we're going to go GA make it actual GA and let the students sit where they want.
I would advocate now a simple "first come, first served" policy and make the seats FREE for anyone showing a valid student ID. Let them sit where they want and with who they want. You want early arrivals? That would do it. You want full student section? That would do it. And this would also start the football game "habit" that will lead to alumni ticket purchases in the future.
Like you I have come pretty far towards the student's viewpoint on seating. When I was at NU my ex girlfriend got the University to impose a "student activities fee" in exchange for free admission to all sporting events. Now that NU has had a few pretty good years of football I would be curious to see if the student ID policy has helped attendance.
Yep, that's how NU does it, though with a much smaller student population that tends to be slightly disinterested in sports.
The kicker is grad students aren't included.
So is there something M could learn from the NU system? Would it work better with a more interested student body?
Also, how do you know the NU undergrad is not as interested as other schools? The football team is as good now as ever.
Have any of you guys actually been to Ryan Field? There is a reason why it is a virtual home game for the visiting team whenever Michigan, Ohio, or Wisconsin play there. We shouldn't be comparing our issues and potential solutions with Northwestern -- it is apples and oranges.
Because it's pretty obvious once you spend about five minutes on campus that NU is a much, much different place than a school like Michigan or Ohio State in terms of sports interest. It's a small, private, bookish university that pretty much has to coax itself into giving a shit when Gameday isn't in town.
Hell, come basketball season, they're pretty much bribing students to show up. Free tickets aren't enough.
So it's OK if I fork over cash for a ticket but I'd better show up and, god forbid, not leave early. What next, only use the rest room during time outs? My money, my ticket, now leave me alone. And get the hell off my lawn!
Well done Code-man, I'm with you.
but i think it would make sense to sell student tickets a la carte before the season. and whatever seats aren't sold before a certain cut off date become open to the general alumni/population.
Seems like if it were up to some of you we wouldn't have a student section at all.
Hell, if that's the case, we might as well divorce the football team from the university altogether, seeing as football was created by the students, for the students, and clearly it's not about that any longer.
I mean, we wouldn't want that pesky university thing with all of those pesky students to get in the way of the football program, now would we?
Would Bama have done anything about this had Saban not said anything? Doubtful. Just goes to show the level that school is willing to go to in order to keep him there.
I get you're frustrated, Saban, but how about you just shut the hell up and focus on coaching your team, not on students leaving mid-way through 4th quarter after another 45-0 blowout.
I think Saban is doing pretty well on the whole coaching thing, probably does not need your advice on where to keep his focus.
Play harder teams..If you play SE Missouri state and are up by 60 who is going to want to stay to the end of that game ???
That is all it would take. Cell service would help as well.
I really don't get the wifi thing. At all. It's a football game at a football stadium, not a home office.
Ask LSU, the Miami dolphins and half the roster at Alabama state.
*sees student thread* *prepares to defend the students' honor*
As always, I think the tution we pay should guarentee that we have seats if we want them. Maybe I'm spending too much time on this site, but I am starting to agree about possibly shrinking the section. On the other hand, this won't be a problem for Nebraska or OSU, showing that the student body does mobilize when we have a good schedule.
I think Saban's idea to stop allowing student orginizations priority seating is the right move. Howeva, I don't think leaving early is merely a student problem, a ton of other fans head to the aisles mid fourth quarter.
Has anyone thought about the feasability of a dynamic "number of seats system?" Full capacity student section for the big games, and shrinking it for the smaller ones. I guess the problem would be cutting off people who have bought season tickets, sort of like the terrible new basketball policy.
If anyone has more coherent thoughts on the shrinking and expanding section, I'd like to hear them.
This discussion never gets old.
Why is a few thousand students showing up late/leaving early such a concern? Why should we care?