Afternoon Games Open Thread
The fans in Lincoln have to be apoplectic right now.
I will be surprised if Bo is there in two years.
If he's there in 2 weeks! Tommy Frazier is already on a twitter rant! Get the popcorn ready, it's gonna get really good in cornhusker country!
I bet the Sparty D scores the most points in this game.
That was a big win for them.
another data point in why we need to bring back the posbang
Minnesota just hooked us up -- thank you, Gophers!
Anyone watch the game? Judging by the box score it looks like Minn controlled the game.
Yes and yes. Minny ran the ball ALL DAY, and it was probably one of the best coached games I've seen. Perfect timing on going for it on fourth down, passing for long gains when unexpected, etc etc. Really nice game all around by Minny.
It would be simply amazing if State can manage to lose to Illinois. With Northwestern and Nebraska notching losses for the day, that helps us considerably.
Go Illini! Go PSU!
Northwestern losing was pretty meaningless considering they were 0-3 already. An Iowa loss to give them 3 may have actually been better.
True, but any loss to our divisional opponents only helps us, even if marginally.
I think you missed his point. Iowa is also a divisional opponent, and they have only two league losses to NW's four.
Here are your key matchup stats courtesy of TeamRankings:
|Rush Play %||54.30%||53.28%|
|Pass Play %||45.70%||46.72%|
|3D Conv %||39.18%||48.57%|
|RZ Scoring %||83.33%||80.95%|
|Opp Completion %||45.58%||63.91%|
|Opp 3D Conv %||28.57%||41.67%|
|Opp RZ Scoring %||87.50%||91.30%|
Can they get rid of sideline reporters please. That Dabo interview was painfully awkward.
Why is MSU/Illinois on ABC? Must be a crap load of crap games today.
The 3:30 slot is especially bad today
Hoping for a bunch of sparty no today
the Spartans made after the ND game that the refs haven't been calling so many infractions against them; we'll see how that goes today...
I didnt watch the Purdue game ...because I like my eyes. But in the other MSU games since ND I think Ive only seen a flagrant Max Bullough PI and none on the CBs. Hollis obviously had a "constructive" talk with Delaney.
Good week to have a bye in the Legends division. Go Illini!
the NW Iowa game as well as the Minnesota Nebraska game; good fun fall football!
27- 13 MSU
Why does Illinois consider us their rival? Do they know we don't consider them even remotely to be a rival?
They probably have, but I can't recall any of late.
I thought I read
Last time before today was 1960.
is actually 30-22 against the Huskers. Though, their last win in the series was back in 1960
weak call, so weak
Impressive drive for FSU. They may well be one of the top 2 teams in the country, but the rest of that conference is draggin them down to the point where Bama or Oregon will have to lose for them to get a shot. The fact that Florida sucks this year hurts them as well.
Bold assertion given that FSU is #2 in the BCS
Because they are 1 on a lot of the computer rankings. That will change if Oregon picks up wins against UCLA and Stanford, and Bama wins out through the SEC. FSU is 3 in both human polls, and need one of Oregon and Bama to lose.
3-0? Run the clock out Illinois. You win.
MSU already benefitting from a crappy call. Oh well, whatever.
Maybe little brother is caught looking ahead
Lets see if the Illini D can do anything....
Sparty with big advantage with this wind -ILL whole offense is pass oriented. Also it looks like refs will be swallowing whistles today so "60 minutes of unnecessary pass interference" will be in full effect.
all of the kickoffs in the Ill-MSU game going like 35 yards?
Been to Illinois Memorial Stadium a couple times, it gets VERY windy there.
It looks like they are playing a HS team
Fsu may not play for a national championship but they certainly look like the most talented team in the country. Winston is amazing but their wr's are straight impossible to cover.
Connor Cook arm punt. Beautiful.
I love how indignant he looks whenever a foul is called against the Spartin's
to next week.
What is that, about 5 penalties in the first quarter?
Sparty Nooooooooo...testing the leg on former M walk on commit Mike Sadler.
I didn't know Sadler was a former walk on commit. I know MSUs long snapper was. They seem to like offering scholarships to our specialists. #recruitingwin #ownthestate
"Well the spartans shoot themselves in the foot with penaltys here." Hmmmm who would of thought you would here that.
I like the 3:30 slate. Alabama-Tennessee, TTU-Oklahoma, MSU-Illinois, and FSU-NCSU
Their punter remains sick. kid booms it 60 yards or pins teams inside 15 all game - on that punt he did both (wind aided) sheesh.
If Oregon and Bama do run the table FSU would likely end up in the orange bowl against Big12 runner up/ Wisconsin. That would be really unfortunate. Hopefully the good Mettenberger shows up against Alabama.
drinking game for "Spartans pushing and shoving"
And when will teams figure out the way overused double A-gap blitz. I hope Borges has a couple plays on file to annihilate it.
Tennessee pulls to within 14 of Bama with 51 minutes to go.
I, of course, laughed when I tuned to CBS after reading your post. Bama is favored by 28 points and I fully expect them to cover it.
And I'll admit it, I laughed.
I meant to do it when Bama was up only 7-0, but they scored a bit too quickly for me.
Is there an over/under for how many non-offensive touchdowns the Sparties score today?
Illinois/MSU makes me want to put my thumb in my eye. Just about as boring as it gets. Just needs more punts.
Half of ABC audience is watching the attrocious offenses of MSU/ILL and the other half is watching FSU destroy NC ST. Hopefully TT/OK is more competitive/watchable.
Did MSU just fumble in the endzone?
Sparty gonna spart.
That's some Spartanfreude right there.
Welp, that happened.
Sparty Noooooo, indeed.
With the diving chest pass.
Is going to win today.
the Illini don't seem able to take advantage of the situation so I'm going to give you a 'not so fast, my friend'
I pretty much always want MSU to lose, but I'm not sure I want their flake out game to be this week, so they're all the more mad & ready next week. I'd much prefer they save their flake out for next Saturday!!
Is always good. No matter the circumstance.
You're giving MSU too much credit. They're more than capable of having multiple flake-out games.
Duke/VT have combined for 92 yards, 6-18 passing and 3 INTs in the 1st QTR
Illinois isn't doing much, but they're doing absolutely NOTHING trying to get the edge vs. MSU.
They've had some success with the short passing game. Next week we need to utilize Dileo and Jake Butt and attack them with the short passes and use those as runs. If you're going to run, RUN RIGHT AT THEM.
Death to the stretch play.
I'm hoping for but to have a breakout game. Take fun chess deep up the seam and settle Butt in where the blitzing linebackers were
Sweet jesus penalties sparty
60 minutes of unnecesary roughness. /drink
The fuck was that?
LOL, the only thing Sparty knows how to do is play defense. This is how Sparty wins. They get a turnover and have a very short field on offense. It seems every game this happens.
It's good that we have a QB that takes care of the ball.
MD up early on Clemson and driving.
what kind of fail play was that
Michigan St. should only play defense. It's the only way they'll win.
Why you're Illinois. If you get the lea against MSU you might as well run the clock out. They won't score unless you hand it to them.
They need to be best friends and Devin needs to trust that punting is a good thing. In fact, I'd say a good punt is worth at least 1 point. 3 good punts against Sparty will get you at least a FG even if you can't really move the ball.
I would just run at them (not around them) and throw slants and hitches all day.
Then, hit them with a double move (max protect) and go for the kill shot.
NO! IT'S A DODGE DURANGO!
Jesus people it's the first quarter, msu probably will end up winning by 10 plus, Illinois is a terrible team.
I don't think that would strike fear into anyone.
I think our defense will bounce back vs. Sparty. It'll be about limiting turnovers and getting points.
And I don't want to win an ugly game, I want to score like no team has scored on Sparty all year. Why not? I want to put up 28+ on them.
5 Tds? I knew it wasn't many, but wow. Terrible
FSU is up 35-0 on NC State.
It's still the first quarter.
Henry-QWash combo next week? Jibreel will be gashed against this running game
IU's offense is designed to gash people so I don't put much stock into how people played vs. them and try to predict how they'll play vs. a team like MSU.
We're also going to need some sort of pass rush. We have a knack over the years of making bad QBs look average and average QBs look good.
MSU doesn't have Bell. Get after Cook and make his day miserable. Then go over O'Connor and make his day even worse.
Oh. Why don't we design an offense to gash people?
We stack our WRs quite often this year...it should help get guys into their routes.
Great play all around
I can only hope that Gardner can draw State offsides often next week.
Bill Cubit you crazay.
Why ILL is even bothering with run plays is beyond me. Just pass all day.
I love how all of the BTN "experts" are already writing us off. The whole panel either picked MSU or NEB to win the Legends division
Wait, they're picking Neb now, even after they lost to Minny?
"You have to go for it, you haven't won a B10 game in 2 years"
MSU run defense is top notch.
Run/pass option with the QB on the edge?
....why would you run up the gut on 4th down against Micihgan State?
Illinois should have run a bootleg.
Only the illini could hurry up to catch the D off guard and lose yards
Can't believe they didn't even try a sneak.
Al Borges approves of that redzone possession.
My thoughts exactly. He is probably wiping spit off his chin at how awesome those Ill runs were deep in Sparty territory and thinking "with our personnel we'll surely score doing the same"
from laughing at your inspired post. Especially when I think how inspired Mike Debord was in comparison. Good one!
The whole "let's bash Michigan while watching other teams play" thing is tired. Don't do it here.
The Penn State loss inexplicably and needlessly gave us an incredibly difficult path to Indianapolis, as State has a charmin soft schedule. So I reserve my right to question our OC and his tactics.
Is it bashing if it's true?
I was actually thinking the exact same thing when it happened.
Either that or it's going to give him reason to run that fake RB dive, QB bootleg and turn 3rd and 1 into 4th and 5 if it doesn't work.
Does it make me a bad person if I want to see FSU drop a hundred on NC State?
Nice student section Ill...
Don't know why you'd leave points on the field. First to 15 could win.
Amazing how undisciplined this MSU team - s o many penaltes.
Or they are well-disciplined to run Narduzzi's "60 minutes of unnecessary roughness." It seems apparent that the MSU staff tolerates, if not condones, a lot of their dirty play.
...this is why I think you harrass him all game. MOAR okie package.
Time to fully unleash him
But it doesn't have to be just Ryan.
Just CONFUSE Cook. They don't run a hurry up so don't let him get a presnap read.
Show a 7-8 man rush, but only send 3-4. Show a base 4-3, then blitz Ryan and drop Clark. Show your Nickel package and force the quick throw by blitzing Countess off the edge.
Anything. Just don't let him get comfortable.
I pray we don't run the "bend but don't break" defense...that's a good way to give a QB confidence.
Illini trying to march penalties now
What have you seen from Sparty that suggests they're a 10-11 win team? They'll lose to us and Neb, and possibly also NW or Minn. They're not that good.
Exactly. Nebraska and a healthy NW (who could need a win to be bowl eligible) will put up points, which MSU struggles to score.
Says who? I guarantee we will woop Little Brother's ass by 50 in their own barn and watch the brah's burn their own campus down in depression.
PSU game did kill us. But MSU has a great chance to lose at Neb. College teams play completely different at home than vs road. See ourselves.
These Illini penalties are beyond frustrating.
For grasping the jersey. Refs -2
I really want MSU to lose, but God, Illinois is pretty horrible on defense. This isn't going to go well. If MSU implodes it could be a fun watch, but watching a bad MSU team win is one of the worst football experiences I could ask for today. I might have to stop watching.
This is the first time I've watched sparty live this year and they are not that good. Illinois is incredibly bad. I'm not as worried about our matchup with sparty as I was before this game
Tackling from the front of the jersey = facemask
MSU OL has been one of the best in conf at pass protect. Cook has had all day to pass every game this year after the first 2 when the whole offense was a cluster. Underrated part of their team - it has a lot of experience and lack injuries of past 2 years. ANy QB with time will do well - Cook gets a lot of time.
Illinois is bottom of the Mac level competition.
If we don't win next week by at least team I'll be blown away. State is not a good football team. They have no balance and their defense I'd highly overrated.
They will play the best game of their season next week. Also, Michigan can't play on the road.
will be hopped up on goofballs. Just hope we win.
look$ like Delaney had a meeting with Dantonio to make $ure $party doe$n't get any call$ again$t them.
Illinois gave up 50 to Wisconsin. This game shows us nothing except MSU is overrated.
And just like that the OL implodes. lol. Rare for them this year.
The Illini says there's your pressure
It's going to happen.
LOL suddenly MSU OL implodes after being stout all year on pass protect.
Next week they're going to feel pain. Pass D pain.
wow sparty luck has turned.
Michigan State is the luckiest team in the universe.
Things that only happen in MSUs favor for 1000 Alex
selves on how they always f up, the next we're wondering why the gods are always on their side. Pick one, please, guys.
Is just stupid
Luckiest play ever!
Always. All that state is and has been is luck since Dantonio has been there.
Yup. They have had so many bull shit plays in the Dantonio era, many of which have allowed them to win games. It's what they do. That shit happened a lot during the Tressel era for Ohio, so I expect nothing different from MSU considering Dantonio coached under Tressel.
I cannot stop laughing at that BS play. ONLY with Sparty or Ohio does that type of shit happen.
Uh, see Roundtree vs Northwestern.
Are you shitting me?!
Argh. Not enjoyable.
their helmets before they enter the Big Ten next year?
They are the ugliest pieces of s*** in the known universe and make the Maryland Football team look like a traveling clown show . Other than that, I guess nothing much is wrong with them.
trumphed by Ilini Oh!!!
Holy boneheadedness Batman
Luck is beating ineptitude once again.
When do we play them? Oh wait. Thanks B1G.
The play by play guy just said, "Good teams make their own luck." There is one problem with that. Sparty is not a good team.
I hate Sparty just as much as the next Michigan fan but this is a completely homer thing to say.
I'm with you Bo. Not sure what people have seen from us to make them confident that we'll hammer state. I can't stand state, but it's very likely we'll struggle next week.
Cook made a terrible decision, and compounded it by throwing a terrible pass. It was sheer luck that the DB bobbled it right into the receiver's hands. In terms of anything MSU had control over, that play went horribly wrong.
Actually it's perfect. Let them win and secure that cook will be QB next week.
Would people on this blog seriously get a grip....MSU is not Oregon but if any one reasonably expected them to lose to a horrendous Illini team you're high.
Well the Spartans of yesteryear would have lost this game - on the road against a bad team, its a stypical Sparty loss. Without that play there this is 10-3 at halftime agains a very bad team.
EDIT: the 2 sacks of Cook actually put them out of FG range...it would have been 7-3.
I was thinking that. It's fun to watch and make fun of for a little while but the outcome isn't in doubt.
I expect spartina to have at least 5 sparty no moments in them to blow the game.
MSU is beating up a team that my Temple Owls would have a good shot against.
The 15 yard facemask penalty that was not a facemask was huge on that drive, plus the circus play at the end.
Throwing the ball I to the hands of a defensive back does not equal a great play, even if it bounced for the TD. I hate announcers.
Cook always rolling to his right.
He's AWFUL when you force him left.
I'd blitz off his right side damn near every down. It's almost the equivalent of forcing the guy youre guarding to use his off hand in basketball.
This game doesn't really tell us anything about how they'll play against us next week
- Cook sucks when he has to roll left, he's not bad going right
- Don't try and get cute in the backfield
- Use stack and bunch formations
- Use short passing game to set up the run (and long passes)
- A good punt is worth more vs. MSU than most other teams
Haha...don't know if I'm happier than he's not our coach or that he IS theirs.
Bama just had an 88 yard pick 6 on Tennessee with 20 seconds left in the half.
some moron at he brewery this morning told me TN has a shot to knock off Alabama. He was incredulous when I answered that Alabama would blow them out.
I'd LOVE to see a 4-team playoff with them, Oregon, FSU and OSU or Baylor.
Wow! Close game on CBS!
Illinois is not out of this game. Connor Cook went 10-11, which he's not likely to duplicate, and MSU converted 7-8 3rd downs (which again, they are unlikely to duplicate) and still MSU didn't put them away.
had a chance to intercept that pass, total failure. NOT as much fail as the announcer though, who thinks Connor Cook is the next Joe Montana, and wants an autograph, or perhaps a game-worn jock.
Tennessee's about to score on Bama... It will be the first points scored on Bama in a long long time
Just kidding. LOL.
don't worry only a matter of time before the NCAA comes to piss lansing to investigate little brother for HGH and steroids.
It's OK, guys. M will defeat MSU next week. Let MSU and their idiot fans get confidence because it will hurt that much more when we beat them.
we don't turn the damn ball over. That means mixing it up and not making Devin throw on 3rd and long all the time. We are a PASS FIRST team. This should be obvious by now, especially against a defense like MSU's.
Bama game is brutal. Third string will be in for the rest of the game.
Not sure why we'll struggle against them. We have our problems but State is no better than us. If we can just score above 10 points, we'll be good.
Florida State, Oregon, and Alabama are all in a class of their own... It's going to be hard to pick one out of the undefeated teams other than Bama.
Agreed. I'd like to see FSU v Alabama in the NCG.
Did you know that the last team to score a touchdown on Bama in Tuscaloosa was Texas A&M with their Heisman quarterback... LAST SEASON?
That is incredible. I wanna be that good.
not that big a deal
Although it's still impressive. They allowed 9 points 5 games.
Last week it felt like we were allowing 9 points in 1 possession.
Well considering it was not the starting defense in the entire time it is a bit more impressive.
That's a sick stat. Gosh, Saban is a bad a$$.
I think it is something like 77 touchdowns that Alabama's defense has given up since 2008. I think the next lowest was LSU with 120.
Damn, I should jinx Bama more often.
My thoughts on MSU is there is a lot of denial on this board. They purposely are playing Tressel ball ...with a lower level of athlete on the offense. People higher on the thread saying there is no chance they go to ILL and lose are rationalizing. (p.s. the game is not over - they can still lose) Plenty of teams go on the road in the Big 10 and cough it up against lesser teams. A lot of Carr's teams did it. MSU played quite possibly the worst game of offense this year in the Big 10 last week and still won 14-0. They have a very good defense which makes plays and gives their offense great field position constantly, and one of the top 3 punters in the country who likewise dictates field position. They have not faced great competition but neither have we. They are boring as hell to watch, by design. It is Tressel ball.
The fact they went to Iowa and aside for 7 minutes in that game when they gave up 2 TDs dominated for 53 minutes, and now is making Illini offense which scores at least 20+ on everyone, have 3 whopping points is impressive. You can poo poo the competition all you want but going on the road and shutting down teams in the Big 10 with your defense, even bad teams is not what a lot of teams can do - this year or most years. I expect a nail biter next week and if UM does not win, I do expect MSU to lose at Nebraska and a dogfight at NW but they would be the clear favorite in the division if they win today. Hence a loss today is needed to "equal" our PSU loss and give us some breathing room with a tough OSU game at end of the year.
This is EXACTLY the type of game the Spartans of yesteryear would have gone into and lost by 20.
If this was Minnesota or Iowa...I can see your point. Those are those "sleepy games" that OSU/MSU seem to win 16-13.
This Illinois team is AWFUL.
Also don't think this MSU team is great. I think they have a GREAT defense and a GREAT punter and that makes it look like TresselBall. OSU teams back then always played great defense and their kicking game was top notch.
This MSU offense is horrible. It's not that they're playing safe and playing the field position game like TresselBall does...it's that they're simply not that good.
Michigan will be fine IF, and it's a HUGE IF...they can win the turnover battle and punt the ball well. And yes, they need to do both.
And 2 weeks ago people were saying Minn was awful. Playing at home is diff than playing on road. Purdue is awful but put up 30 or whatever on Notre Dame. Wiscy gave up 32 to Illinois. Wiscy is not awful. Etc. Everyone likes to rationalize what they are doing because for the first time in a long time (since the early 60s) there is a constant feel we can lose to MSU each year. It's reality. I dont like it any bit but its reality. Going on the road and dominating teams - whatever caliber - is not easy. Especially what tire fire offense they have. I never said their offense is great or good. It can be average. MSU lacks individual playmakers on offense - that is where their recruiting level hurts. This is why its not playing "like OSU" - they dont have that level of offensive skill player. Same Tressel style without the dynamic offensive playmakers and in this conference its good enough to win a lot of games over the years. They overcome it on defense. An average offense is good enough with how good the defense is, especially in a very bad conference.
Illinois scored 19 against Nebraska. Just saying......
Seriously though, good defense will win you alot of games, bad offense or not.
Any time someone posts something that states "aside from x amount of minutes" I stop reading. You can't pick the data that supports your point and ignore the data that doesn't.
Marky mark is an ass.
Marky mark is also a fantastic head coach.
Last year he lost 6 games and went 0-4 at home in B1G play . . . how quickly we forget.
He's very good at one side of the ball. The other side, not so much.
When Narduzzi leaves at the end of the season I'll be interested to see if he can maintain the defensive continuity. I realize he was DC at Ohio but this is Narduzzi's defense.
Back on...could be the only good game of the afternoon. Weird seeing Coach Montgomery in crimson.
Yeah this Illinois game is not over but we need to beat Sparty next week to have a chance. I do think Nebraska and Minnesota can give them trouble. Also at this point we control our own destiny. Win out and there are no problems. Nebraska losing today is huge. It would be great for Sparty to blow this but not absolutely necessary. Just have to take care of our own business.
who is this Connor Cook admirer behind the ESPN microphone? What a douche.
the kid is 12/13
that's as much on Illinois D as Cook himself. Did you watch him last week vs. mighty Purdue? A steaming pile of goo...in fact a WR had to throw their only TD pass on an end-around. Cook blows.
He is a sophomore who had a very bad game. Like all sophomores. 3 of the past 4 games (against 2 bad defenses of course) he has had very good games (Ind, Iowa, Ill). He is halfway decent. He need not be great. He rarely turns the ball over. I think he has 2 INT all year. And today's fumble. He does not suck - he is decent and that is all they need. Stop being in denial.
Illinois has a terrible defense that gave up 56 to Wisconsin and 39 to Nebraska. They are also missing two of their corners today. They also scored 7 points against Purdue.
Stop telling me how to think.
I'll give you the point about 'need not be great', which is fortunate for MSU because he never will be. Hasn't made many mistakes yet because he hasn't played an aggressive D yet.
I'm done gentlemen. I can't take watching MSU win.
Next Saturday can't come soon enough. It'll be a good test for us, but frankly, they don't scare me at all. Can't wait.
but a pounding is not likely to happen.
does not exist.
They're 104 in the nation for a reason
Gotta good one folks.
Unstoppable Throw God Conner Cook?
Michigan State is good. I can't believe it, but their program is in a better place than ours right now. All things considered, they have a top three football program in the conference the last five years, with no indication that will change. We can't say that.
Hold on. Let's see where the two programs are at season's end.
Yeah, we'll see. I hate it, but Dantonio, while an ass of a human being, is a great coach. He has a clear idea of the team he wants to be and executes it very well. I thought they got lucky with a few diamonds in the rough with Bullough, Worthy, Rush, Dennard, etc. But, by all indications they will continue turning three-starts into All-Conference defenders. Calhoun is evidence that it's systemic and not flukey. They're not going away once Bullough, Dennard, and Lewis graduate.
They lose a lot of senior defenders and quite possibly also their DC after this year, as well as most of their OL, so it's anyone's guess where they'll go from here.
MSU definitely benefitted from our RichRod experiement, and they've been more stable than we have - that's pretty clear. They don't have 61 scholarship underclassmen out of 85 like we currently do. But that's going to change. In the future we're going to have a lot of talent and a lot of experience. And even now, I think we'll beat these guys next week and finish ahead of them.
I'm not buying your premise about the two programs. I understand it is the natural condition for the Michigan fan to perceive that the program is invariably "regressing" or somehow limited. That said, the home team is still 6-1, is still recruiting better athletes (understanding this is Hoke's second full recruiting class) and still has the usual advantages re: Big House etc.
One of these two programs has more recently (I mean ever) played in a BCS bowl. We'll also learn a lot about that team when Narduzzi leaves to be HC at UConn or Temple or somewhere soon.
I hope you're right. This season has been really tough for me, though, because it has dispelled both the narrative that Hoke can do no wrong and the narrative that MSU's window has closed. I'm glad we're 6-1, but there is no denying that we've regressed in every facet of the game this year. Meanwhile, MSU's season last year is looking more like an aberration rather than the beginning of a fall back to mediocrity.
Here's the thing, it's a return to Lloyd era Michigan/Sparty where the top end for Michigan State is going to be 8-4 or 9-3 to 2025 (they might get 10-2/9-3 this year and the opportunity for a horrific killing again vs. anyone from the SEC). So that's your Sparty ceiling. Periodically they will beat the big brother but mostly not. This was Lloyd.
Michigan, on the other hand will have a base of 8-4 and a ceiling of 12-0 or at least 4 team/8 team playoff contention. The difference in recruiting will show with players like Morris, Hand, Peppers, Mone, Ross, Ojemudia, our entire OLine class from last year etc.
Both teams can have success but the ceiling is different.
Yeah, they have some good coaches. I've been surprised by them the last few years.
no indication that will change
You mean besides getting their asses handed to them in recruiting for a couple of years? Besides not playing anyone worth a good goddamn outside of Notre Dame and looking like crud? Besides losing a bunch of talent on defense next year?
Is it non sequitur hour? And have you not seen MSU's record from last year?
The emphasis on winning mythical recruiting championships when your team has had a 9 loss season, a 5 loss season, 6 loss season, and a 7 loss season in the past 6 years is laughable. Who the f** cares. Win me some fucking games on the road against Big 10 competition that is good (Brady doesnt have a singular big road win in 3 years - and no I dont count neutral Sugar Bowl), win a fucking Big 10 championship sometime in a decade.
And we looked like absolute pure shit against Akron and UConn. We barely beat Akron at home. Just think about that for a second and let that sink in.
We're talking about indications of change. You're talking about something else for whatever reason. Also, we haven't had a top-10 recruiting class until this past year.
Also, I've been guilty of excessive bitching, but we're 6-1. Back off the ledge.
Well, they lost one game, so I'm not seeing the manhandling. And has been pointed out numerous times, the reason UM has struggled at times this year is in part because the recruiting classes years ago are fallow, leading to the lack of upper class men this year.
People who deny the impact of recruiting as the so-called "February Championship" are limited in their analysis of any program. I'll take my chances with years of 4 and 5 star athletes vs. Sparty and we'll win a hell of a lot more than we lose. This recipe, recruiting in volume high ceiling and high rated players, is basically what Saban, Carroll, Les Miles, Urban at Florida and Mack Brown have made work for the majority of National titles over the past decade.
Hell, Lloyd made that work in 97. I'll take my chances with Hoke and his recruiting philosophy. We should win games (6-1) but we'll lose games as the team matures. Sparty apologists might check Mark D's home record from last year before considering that the sky is falling.
No my position is teams that lose 3-6 times a year have a lot of fan bases who cling to recruiting rankings. See Texas of late - see Florida State for much of the past 10-15 years.
Saying "who cares about recruting" is just incredibly dumb. If you don't think recruiting matters you had better pick a better sport to follow.
Because Alabama wins all the time with inferior talent? Saying "wins" matter but not recruiting is myopic. You don't have to be an elite recruiter to remain competitive, but you can't keep recruiting a bunch of mediocre talent and stay competitive every season. If you do, you'll ping pong around like some teams do season to season.
Yep and using the extreme example always is the way to argue. If you are not top 3 recruiting every year you cannot be a successful program. Check out Wisconsin's, Oregon's and Stanford's recruiting rankings the past 5-6 years - UM beats them every year. Now check out the records.
I am not arguing you dont need good recruits - that is a silly argument. I am arguing with people who cling to these recruiting rankings in lieu of .... oh I dont know, winning a lot on the field and having a team that is a realistic BCS level team every year. Our recruiting rankings would indicate we should be there - the evidence on the field year in and year out says otherwise. You need not have Alabama recruits to have a top notch program and UM has zero excuses - other than one year we had a class outside of the top 20 in the past 5 years, we've consistently been between 5 and 20 type classes for a very long time and a bunch of 3-4 loss seasons for the past 20 years, before it got even worse lately. MSU recruits 30th-40th most years as an aside, but again we should not even be at a point we are having a valid argument vs MSU in this sport. It is pathetic.
Oregon #10, #9, #16, #22 ranked recruting classes. They aren't a very good example for your recruitng doesn't matter theory. Oh and theri junior and senior classes were both ranked above Michigan's from those 2 years. So in that regard you are just plain wrong.
YOu are the only person on this thread who said recruiting doesnt matter. I said losers cling to recruiting rankings rather than the only thing that matters - wins and losses. I could care less about recruiting national championships. GReat you picked out Oregon - look at the other 2 I named. Also look at Oregon 6-7-8 years ago when they were still doing great and before they got the recent bump up in recruiting rankings. If you are arguing UM has lived up to its recruiting rankings the past 10-15 years, I'd love to hear your argument - we have been chronic underachievers. And in all thsoe years people like you waved the recruiting flag and say "we're doing great! #7 class! #9 class"
And for your Oregon situation, UM has had very equal class rankings and look at how UM program has done those 5 years versus Oregon with the same type of classes.
I think you need to go easy on the sauce.
Recruiting rankings (Rivals):
2007: Oregon 11, UM 12
2008: Oregon 19, UM 10
2009: Oregon 32, UM 8
2010: Oregon 13, UM 20
2011: Oregon 9, UM 21
2012: Oregon 16, UM 7
2013: Oregon 22, UM 5
Oregon has "beat" us in recruiting twice in the past 7 years. The 2 programs are not even close right now in what they put on the field. Why?
Stanford has has one top 20 class in this time frame (2012). They are a very similar program with similar academic standards - better product on the field. Why? Stanford's class in 2013 is #63 and 2012 was #5.... 2008 was #50. Outside of those anamolies (sp?) they are generally in the 20s every year. Michigan beats them by 10+ spots almost every year. Wisconsin is generally in the 30s ... etc.
Thats actually 3 times theyve beaten us, but your overall point still stands.
Toss out the year by year win or losses in February recruiting. A person would look at those numbers and at worst say Oregon recruits similar to UM. Not much better, not much worse. The product on the field? Night and day. WE HAVE NO EXCUSES.*
*Our 2010 and 2011 classes are way below the rankings. The 2011 class does not have 1 offensive starter - probably the only team in the country who has ZERO starters from the 2011 class on offense (it did well for our defense however). The 2010 class we know the issues.
The larger point is based on our championships of February we have no business not being a BCS level type team year in and year out. The same February championships people crow about on these boards when we suffer through another 3-4-5 loss season and tell us "just wait 2 more years". They are not "waiting 2 more years" every year in Columbus. I am not saying recruiting doesnt matter - any team in the top 10-15 yearly should be at the 2 loss type of level max. If you do more than that, you are an underachiever versus all the raw talent you are given. UM gets too much talent for all these excuses to be thrown around the board.
Rich Rod messed up so bad that we need to wait for Hoke's recruits recruits to grow up. Urban Meyer already had a ton of talent from Tressel's teams.
You have to develop talent as well and RR was one of the worst at that. None of those are rankings are really that different besides Wisconsin's and Michigan, but for every Wisconsin there is a LSU, Alabama, FSU.
when half of those super great classes are lost to attrition.
Their program is not in a better place. I wouldn't trade our current players for their band of personal foul specialists, nor would I trade our coaches or facilities for theirs, the recruits we have coming in. Everything we have is better than theirs right now except the current defense, and ours isn't horrible. In a few more years, they won't even have that.
Our D isn't horrible? It's close.
47 to iu, no rush on passer, difficulty tackling, can't cover, etc. I wish it weren't the case. I must be watching different games the you.
No numbers outside of a single stat referring to a very good offense.
Your math must be broken. Or maybe it's your brain.
You bring up last week (yes it was bad) but you don't bring up the overall body of work. This defense isn't awful, and unless you actually have some stats to perpetuate your claims I suggest you stop making them.
Ohio (yes, that Ohio) gave up 48 to Indiana last year. They're a weird team to defend.
Stop your factual arguing, dammit.
Because if you aren't number one you are horrible? I welcome any evidence showing the defense is terrible.
Turnovers are a huge part of that arguement. Our defense isn't great, but its not bad by any means.
29th in total defense. We are also 11th in scoring offense. This is a terrible Illinois defense. This is exactly like when they scored 42 points on Indiana and the Sparty apologists where on here trying to convince everyone that Sparty was back and we had no chance against them and then we turned around and put 63 on them.
"They've lost to the only remotely decent team they have played"
1) Iowa is remotely decent
2) Who have we beat that is remotely decent? I can name one team. Notre Dame. You will bring up Minnesota probably but that is a stretch. We have likewise played nobody.
Next week when we beat them we'll still have beaten nobody. The big ten is not good. That's why the gophers can beat Nebraska today and northwestern is a laughing stock. We play in the fourth or fifth best conference in NCAA football.
I agree with those points. I hope OSU gets to play Oregon or FSU in their bowl.
And then shrug off Minnesota? Minnesota beat NW and Nebraska. Minnesota may actually be solid. Not great, but solid. They looked pretty good today. Michigan's win against them is definitely at least "remotely decent".
And then shrug off Minnesota? Minnesota beat NW and Nebraska. Minnesota may actually be solid. Not great, but solid. They looked pretty good today. Michigan's win against them is definitely at least "remotely decent".
People are clueless. Their schedule is so weak that they can't even sniff the top 25 at 6-1. They're offense is terrible for the second year in a row. I think next week we shop up and give them more than they can handle in their own stadium.
I don't have confidence that Michigan can beat any team on the road. I'm not here to give Sparty a bunch of credit either. They will win the shitty legend's division and they will beat the shit out of Michigan's lines and turnover prone QB next Saturday.
Yep it sucks. Its not the SOS. Going to be a dogfight and if UM loses next week MSU can afford to lose to someone else because we still have Ohio and tough games vs Iowa, NW, and Neb. And I expect Neb to lose to someone else (including us). Even if we beat MSU next week they have not stumbled against the 'patsies' like they used to do in the old days.
MSU Last 5 years:
6-7 (4-4 BIG)
Since Hoke was hired Michigan's gone
11-2 (6-2 BIG)
MSU had 2 great years (maybe 3 with this year) and two bad years.
Michigan has won more games and more conference games since Hoke was hired than MSU. So why is MSU a top 3 program and Michigan isn't?
The fact we are pulling out these comparisons is the issue. UM v MSU should not be a talking point. UM v OSU should be a talking point. We have so much more in resources and we have a legitimate chance to lose to Sparty just about every year with the 2 current regimes. Comparing us to MSU and saying "hey we could be better is not the greater point. We should be better, and it should not even be a discussion point. Our facilities, our coaching salaries, our recruiting, our money, our everything... and its still a debatable topic.
The discussion right above is about Michigan/MSU. That's why people are discussing it.
But that wasn't the point origininally. The point being argued was Magnum's glorious mustache up there saying MSU was better than Michigan and moving up, while we couldn't say that. I'm not arguing that it's wrong to say that MSU and Michigan are on par right now. I'm arguing it's stupid to say MSU is clearly better and looking likely to stay that way.
" I'm arguing it's stupid to say MSU is clearly better and looking likely to stay that way."
Yes, I dont think they are clearly better. The two are about equal right now.
Maybe the original guy commenting meant MSU is not going to fade away in 2 years but I am not in his head. The larger picture is UM is about the same as Nebraska and MSU right now, and despite OSU being highly flawed still seems to be behind, by a step or more. And even bigger picture we are light years away from what Bama is doing. But at this point I'd accept Ohio level sometime in the next 2 years.
Well, to be clear, I don't think state is "clearly" better than us, nor do I think they are moving up. I just think they've established a level of consistency and quality that we haven't.
They've been better than us the last four years. We're pretty even this year. Going into this season, I thought they were on an inevitable decline and us on an inevitable rise, but everything I've seen this fall has changed that perception.
Um. didn't we win last year?
We lost the year before but went to a BCS bowl (which, interestingly, Sparty has never been invited to...)
We win next week changes your opinion or still sames?
I meant the last four years taken as a whole, but last year's game didn't give much confidence. A last second FG to win by two at home doesn't even cover the three-point home field advantage.
Honestly, we've looked so bad this season that my faith in Hoke is already irreparably damaged. I still think he's a good coach and I like him a lot. I thought he had us back to a place where we might struggle against good teams at home and against average teams on the road but would put away bad teams without much trouble (see: every Michigan team from 1980 to 2007). That's what Hoke did the last two years, and I'm pretty okay with that as a baseline for my fandom. And that's what MSU has been for the last few years. But this year with the monkey circus against Akron, UConn, PSU, and Indiana has put some big cracks in my belief.
I obviously want to win next week. And I root for state to get pummeled every week. But they don't. They play great defense, don't turn it over, and typically win by grinding the opponent down. You know what you're gonna get from them. More than I can say about us right now.
I think we're two years away from grinding down opponents. The young O-Line of Magnusson, Kalis, Dawson etc. will be like Wisconsin in maturity (redshirt junior/junior minimun starters), Green will be a Junior and Shane Morris will be asked to manage games.
People are naturally impatient but I'm a realist that a coach needs to have their seniors in place. Any rational look at the depth chart indicates the limited senior presence on the current group. This is not really Hoke's fault in my view.
I'm not happy about probably taking that long but I think that's probably the trajectory with continued 4-5 star recruits and you hope the generational recruits like Hand or Peppers work out.
We'll still be solid next two years and could well go 2-0 in that time against MSU or Ohio depending on circumstances/turnovers but what it looks like the "vision" Hoke is recruiting on Offense and Defense is going to take a while to implement.
I'd rather still be us then them.