Academic Requirements - ND, UM and others
Everyone always talks about ND's tough admissions standards, but does anyone actually know what is required for GPA and test scores to get into ND? How does this compare to UM and others such as Stanford, USC, Texas, Florida, Alabama. Obviously I know that the SEC is a joke, but what are their actual requirements? Do you just have to have a pulse and anything over a 0.01 GPA to be accepted? And while UM has brought in a small number of JuCo players in the past, it has always said that it is very, very hard for UM, ND, and Stanford to do this because of their academic standards. This makes it hard for us to fill holes immediately with experienced players like other programs can do. Does anyone have this information, or know where these standards can be found?
December 2nd, 2009 at 9:19 AM ^
Notre Dame's standard for athletic admission is a 3.0 or higher. This is a B average. Most of the other schools in the country only require a 2.0, which is a C average. The problem with JUCO players is getting their credits to transfer. A lot of universities have this problem.
December 2nd, 2009 at 9:40 AM ^
I'm sure Irish can chime in but this is what I have read before.
UM like most schools merely requires that the player be academically eligible coming out of high school. In other words, they will accept the student if he meets NCAA minimums. This is not true at ND.
One of the differences I have read, is that ND requires all students to take Calculus in the first year, this includes football players. So if a player doesn't have the necessary math classes, that go beyond the NCAA minimum, then they can't be accepted.
Of course ND will make exceptions but the amount of exceptions and the degree has been clamped down since Holtz left.
This could all be internet lore and not true, but this is just some of the stuff I've seen around.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:30 AM ^
yeah thats a good place to start, its more than just math though more like a core group of classes recruits have to have completed to get through admissions. That is one of the reasons why ND tries to pull from particular schools, they already know they'll pass admissions
December 2nd, 2009 at 1:06 PM ^
FWIW, a friend of mine who majored in math at UM and taught math at ND confirmed that the calc class ND freshman take is *not* a Math 115 equivalent. I had a hard time believing that a entire football team could pass Math 115 without some "help." This little detail helped me make sense of it all.
August 14th, 2010 at 9:25 AM ^
One of the differences I have read, is that ND requires all students to take Calculus in the first year,...
this is untrue and, as mentioned, the calc offered at ND is not the same as 115 at M.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:00 AM ^
Its not just the admissions that make it tough, but the expectation of actually graduating as well. You have to go to class and work towards your major, and for all the football players that stay its a 100% graduation rate.
ND doesn't accept any Jucos
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:10 AM ^
I would think ND must limit recruiting if taking calculus in college and having a 3.0 or better is required. The 3.0 in many HS's is much easier to achieve than passing a college calc course if you haven't had the prerequisites.
I've often wondered about the correlation between a good college GPA and success in the college and the NFL. If Brees and Brady and both Mannings are any example, the correlation is definitely there as they all were good students in college.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:19 AM ^
Brees, Brady and the Mannings are QBs. ND's failures in recent years have not been at QB. ND lacks talent and depth on defense.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:29 AM ^
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/296044-notre-dames-next-coach-will-d…
word on the street is that notre dame does allow some exceptions to their standards, although they most likely try to keep it on the downlow how many. if it is three per year, that would be 12 for an entire team, maybe 15 incl redshirts. that would be about 15% of the team.
"I'm being told it will require 12 academic exceptions to get Meyer to Notre Dame. Right now Notre Dame grants three..." - from a message board
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:32 AM ^
that is very very incorrect
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:39 AM ^
...is incorrect? And why?
December 2nd, 2009 at 12:11 PM ^
...should never be taken seriously.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:34 AM ^
This tells you so much about the SEC and why Meyer would never leave.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:46 AM ^
In the link above, it references a 2008 AJC article about SAT scores of athletes versus the student average, which was posted on this site at the time of publication.
Available here: http://www.ajc.com/homefinder/content/sports/stories/2008/12/28/acadmai…
Really interesting article, especially this part:
FOOTBALL SAT SCORES: THE TOP 10 (School, Average) Georgia Tech, 1028 Oregon State, 997 Michigan, 997 Virginia, 993 Purdue, 974 Indiana, 973 Hawaii, 968 California, 967 Colorado, 966 Iowa, 964 THE BOTTOM 10 (School, Average) Oklahoma State, 878 Louisville, 878 Memphis, 890 Florida, 890 Texas Tech, 901 Arkansas, 910 Texas A&M, 911 Mississippi State, 911 Washington State, 916 Michigan State, 917It only did public universities, so Notre Dame wasn't counted. Also note that MSU is 10th to last, not last (that goes to Louisville and Oklahoma State). Still, that's really bad. Considering the schools they're lumped in with, that's gotta be embarrassing for Sparty. My magazine works with Georgia Tech on a trade show, and I've met a handful of their football players (including Calvin Johnson). They're not kidding about academics there -- these fellas knew more about environmental science than most of the professionals in the room.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:53 AM ^
Also from the AJC article:
“They’re saying we’ll take just about anybody as long as we can get them through,” said Allen Sack, director of the University of New Haven’s Institute for Sport Management and a former University of Notre Dame football player. “They’re betting what they can do is they can get anyone through school if they get the right kind of counseling.”I highly recommend the whole read.
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:10 AM ^
its a good read
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:22 AM ^
Very interesting it shows the effort is there
December 2nd, 2009 at 11:51 AM ^
For those who aren't reading the full article, it should be mentioned that the top and bottom ten lists given are out of the 53 schools for which SAT scores were available, not the full 120. I would be surprised if South Florida is not in the actual bottom ten
December 2nd, 2009 at 1:04 PM ^
4 of the top 10 are BIG 10 schools. It's nice to see the BIG 10 come out on top in something football related.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:36 AM ^
You have to consider how much more difficult it will be for these players to stay eligible once enrolled in these institutions (ND, UofM, Stanford). Just because you pass NCAA standards does not mean you have 4 easy years ahead of you. I remember talking to my academic counselor as a freshman at UofM. He made it a point to tell me that at UofM, expectations are much higher. If you were a 4.0 student at another school, history has shown that you would get anywhere from a 3.4 - 3.5 at UofM. Now think of this in terms of someone squeaking in with a 3.0 - 3.1. They could expect to achieve a 2.5 - 2.6 GPA. Of course this is not applicable to every case. There are exceptions. However, this is something to think about. I have no doubt that a 3.5 GPA student at UofM, ND, and Stanford is very different than a 3.5 GPA student at EMU, Oregon, Oklahoma, etc. Just my thoughts.
December 2nd, 2009 at 12:40 PM ^
Entering engineering, I was told a full letter grade (1.0) if I were to put in the same amount of effort. It turned out to be pretty accurate.
My room mate and I always thought that there should be a strength of schedule on our transcripts, because there is a wide range of difficulties between degree programs, which does hurt when applying to grad school and jobs. The raw score is what people see, not everyone takes into account the institution or the degree program.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:48 AM ^
When assessing academics, there are many factors involved so you cannot pick straws.
First, a 3.0 GPA standing alone is meaningless. Does the school weight GPA and assess higher GPAs for students taking honors and AP courses? Obviously, the types of courses taken by the student matter a great deal.
High school GPA is meaningless unless you see the types of classes taken. While test scores do not tell the whole story, you need a test score to complement a defined GPA in order to assess the strength of a student. Go to rivals or scout and they list scores for some commitments. There are obvious exceptions given to ND players, as well as Michigan players.
Michigan seems to have a larger proportion of players with good academics. That's really the only conclusion you can draw. There are a number of good scores listed. Also, I'm willing to assume a student has good academics if they get an offer from an elite academic institution. For example, a lot of commitments have Stanford offers as well.
As far as the correlation between your high school GPA and college GPA, there's really no link unless you assess the types of courses taken in high school, the competition at your high school and your intended major. It's practically useless when you factor that in with athletic commitment in a new surrounding.
December 2nd, 2009 at 12:43 PM ^
UM discontinued their practice of recalculating applicant GPA's this year. There was an article in the Daily about it. Now those weighted GPA's are taken at face-value...
December 2nd, 2009 at 7:44 PM ^
When I was applying, they counted only core academic classes in Sophomore and Junior years. My weighted GPA would have looked ridiculous (like over 4.0).
You saying they don't do that anymore?
It seems to me that the old way of doing things was more fair. You were expected to take honors classes if they were available, but applicants weren't discriminated against if their school didn't offer them.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:54 AM ^
as a former athlete at Mich, i know this process pretty well.
As long as the clearinghouse will grant you eligibility (sliding scale of SAT/ACT and GPA), umich will accept you and I'm sure this is true for 99.9% of all D1 schools.
For the more "at risk" students, there are class checkers, advisers, tutors, required study hours, etc to make sure the transition from high school to college is a successful one. 99.9% of all freshmen, no matter the GPA & SAT/ACT or sport are required to meet a number of supervised study hours per week. Then if your semester GPA (after your freshmen year) at umich does not meet a coach's standard, they will then be required a number of supervised study hours per week.
December 2nd, 2009 at 10:57 AM ^
Most colleges force you to adhere to the NCAA clearinghouse standards, at the minimum. For example if you have a 2.0 GPA, you need to get a 22 or better on the ACT (not a guess). If you have a 3.0, you must get an 18 (this is a guess) or better on the ACT. Also, they require that you took "core courses" like English and Math and Science. The NCAA does say that these are minimum standards for eligibility, not admission requirements. As a reference, in 2006 the median ACT score was 21 (15 is the mode). So these standards are not exactly rigorous.
Admission requirements are always hazy. Colleges never say things like, "you must have a 3.0 GPA and a 27 ACT score at minimum," because there is no rigid standard. First of all, legacies, applicants who are related to alumni, are often as a policy admitted assuming a minimum academic standard is met. Also, admission committees will admit "philanthropic" students, that is, students with rich parents in the hope that the parents will drop a few million on their school. Now a 4.0 student with a 36 ACT score may not be admitted (especially to a place like Harvard) if the student does not "fit" in the university culture. Ultra competitive schools will have alumni interview (and recommend) applicants for admission, often ignoring things like transcripts. I can imagine the admissions committee asking, "Is he a Michigan Man?" or "Is she a Michigan Woman?" after looking at a student's transcript, recommendations, and personal essay.