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And you think you're crowded at Michigan Stadium
IMPORTANT: Ondre Pipkins not involved.
That's my take as well. Hoke and Beilein seem to both have that ability.
“What the mind can conceive, the mind can achieve and those who stay will be champions.” - Bo
easier to beat the other big dogs to the meat when Charlie Weis is out of the Midwest.
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Did this kid score every touchdown for his team? Every catch is a score.
Look at the calendar. Breathe. This is not a contingency plan offer. Michigan is not having trouble recruiting receivers. It is May. The fact that Csont'e York received his first BCS offer in May suggests that he is flying under the radar and many BCS coaches haven't evaluated his play. If this were a contingency offer, it would occur after most top-ranked WR recruits are committed... not while most of them are completely undecided. The coaches must like York's potential. That is why he has an offer. It is not because they are scared that all the good ones are gone. I'm sure glad we don't make recruiting decisions by fanbase vote.... we wouldn't send out enough offers to fill a roster.
2014 Offer List BOYCOTT ADIDAS
"We wouldn't send out enough offers to fill a roster"....but every 5* would get a lot of love.
Not a blazer, but some kids just know how to play. I love speedy WRs, but I need to remind myself that the hall-of-fame has a bunch of receivers that were not burners.
I'll take a Marquise Walker or Jason Avant all day long and they were not burners.
How about Jerry Rice? The GOAT ran a 4.71 40. Speed is the most over-rated ability for a WR. If you can run routes and consistently catch the ball, you can be great.
That said, I see one great route in the highlights--the slant-corner. Of course, it's a highlight reel, so who knows? The fact that we offered him in May and the comments from the scouts are encouraging. Go get him Brady!
Thank you, Coach Hoke, for bringing Michigan back.
If there's one position I'm OK with us taking the non-blue chip sorts is WR. It seems that guys over achieve at receiver more than anywhere else. Sure, the top 5 or so in the country usually pan out, but beyond that, the difference between #15 and #50 is often a toss up. Scouting them can be hard since they rely on a good QB for production and many teams don't have that, so maybe that's why York has flown a bit under the radar.
At this point, I'll choose to trust the staff. They've gotten in early on several guys that have blown up in recruiting. Conley is a great example from this class. He wasn't rated very highly at all and has steadily risen up the rankings. Charlton is another example. For both guys, Michigan was one of their first BCS offers and now both are very highly regarded prospects. Not sure if York is the same caliber, but I'll trust Hoke & Co.
Jeremy Clark. I think that kid is going to be a stud
“When your team is winning, be ready to be tough, because winning can make you soft. On the other hand, when your team is losing, stick by them. Keep believing” - Bo Schembechler
Don't forget Ondre Pipkins. Three-star when he committed last year. Five-star by signing day.
"Recruiting Ninja" | Email | Twitter
Pipkins was highly rated by some sites early on. It's not like he was a sleeper across the board and burst onto the scene. At least at the time he committed (before his senior season, in August), Pipkins was #102, #147, and #246 overall to Scout, 247 Sports, and Rivals, respectively.
Twitter - Recruiting Update: May 20
OMG!!! This probably means that we're not getting Treadwell. PANIC TIME!!
"Congrats to @Ct_York1 on his offer and commitment to U-M! Not rated, but brings good size to the receivers. Must be a special day for him."
a quick search of him on Twitter and someone else asked if he commited. He said "nawl" which I assume means no...
I read your post to myself in Dave Chappelle's Chuck Tayor anchorman voice...
Except for the other thing. That hurts the most. But the lack of respect hurts the second most.
Added bonus Chandler Park seems like a school intent on bringing in some talent in football/basketball. Michigan could land their first major prospects in both sports.
I was going to mention this before wesq beat me to it, but incidentally Chandler Park is also the home of 2013 PG commit Derrick Walton, who has been receiving much praise lately on the early AAU season. I know very little about this school, but I'm fairly certain it is pretty small. Not sure what class level they are though.
Walton and York are in the same high school class though, FWIW.
Not intending to be snarky here, and I have no real opinion on this particular recruit, but the logic applied in most of these comments seem to indicate that people would not question any offer made by this coaching staff under any reasonable circumstance.
I think they're doing a great job overall, but they're not infalliable. Expressing reasonable doubt on the strategies being employed is....well, reasonable.
The coaching staff's approach to WR recruiting is noticibly different than other positions. My concern is not with recruiting rankings but the type of player being recruited. Specifically, the lack of high-end speed. I got annoyed at Rodriguez for all the slot-WR types and I'm a little concerned we're headed for the same type of overemphasis on 'big' WR. I like taller WR, but I think speed is far more important.
Kenton Gibbs today I would question it. From what I've heard, he would jump on a Michigan offer. Taking him now would all but eliminate the possibility of landing Poggi, Vanderdoes or Pagano though. Hoke seems to be after one NT-type.
Somewhat off topic, but I wonder if someone like Gibbs is hurt by the Cass Tech connection. If you're a lower-profile Big Ten school, it's probably not worth it to offer Gibbs and risk that he'll jump ship if Michigan wants him late. Seems like a tough position to be in.
Neither Poggi nor Vanderdoes are NTs. Both are 3-tech, maybe 5-tech guys.
he looked very slow. Small sample size caveats apply.
our package is our package, and it’s pretty big. - Greg Mattison, Bowl Practice Presser Tr. 12-13-11.
I'd wait to see how the class wraps up. Plus, it sounds like Chesson is fast as hell.
There are some offers that I question (e.g., Scott Orndorff). This is not one of them. He'll end up highly regarded with a bunch of very nice offers, I suspect.
Can't judge yet, but there's been a lot of offers thrown out and I'm assumimng Dukes will stick.
I don't think anyone feels that the coaches are infalliable, just that they have a pretty good track record on these things, plus they have a lot more info than we do.
To address your poi nt above, both of our receivers from the 2012 class are fast. Not Denard fast, but I bet they're both faster than any WR currently on the roster. Drake Johnson, who may be a RB or a WR, is an absolute burner, and a number of the WRs Hoke has offered in this class are burners as well.
You have a bad habit of making broad statements without having anything to back it up. Yes, Jaron Dukes is not a speed demon. He's also 6'5". Yet you suggest that Hoke and Borges want all Jaron Dukes on the field, even when there's no evidence to suggest that.
the focus on WR recruiting has been speed. Now, obviously Hoke and staff aren't dumb. They want 6'5, 4.2 speed, like any other coach. It's about what they consider a priority and the guys they offer that AREN'T 5-star types. Generally, they're offering tall guys w/o elite speed but not short guys with it. There have been some shorter WR recruited, but in general the focus has been on tall guys.
Rule of thumb: If you're tall and fast, you're going to be very highly rated. If you're tall and not highly rated, you're probably not that fast. Michigan has recruited a lot of tall WRs that aren't that highly rated.
And just for the sake of argument: you say the coaches"have a pretty good track record on these things". Do they?
I don't think you understand how rare it is to have guys that are tall and also burners.
Greetings from Bolivia.
"It's special how the real true people hang together. And if you don't support the program you're not a true Michigan guy. It's that simple." - Gary Moeller
I think most of the time you have to choose tall or fast. That's my whole point -- is this staff is choosing taller over faster? If so, I'm skeptical about that decision.
Well I meant recruiting in general, so I'd say yes. Regarding WRs specifically, it's probably too early to tell, and I don't know enough about players he recruited elsewhere to say.
As for the tall WRs who aren't that highly rated - who have we recruited? You say we've recruited "a lot." Maybe Dukes could qualify, although he's a 4 star to two of the four services. Anyone else?
By the way, the other WR we just offered, Alvin Bailey, is 5'11".
Seriously, how is it possible that it's NOT too early to tell when the only 2 WR recruits they've taken haven't even enrolled yet...and the one TE they had totally flamed out? OF COURSE it's too early. You can point to Borges or Hoke or other individual coaches and try from previous stops, but THIS staff, as it's currently constructed, has zero track record with WR recruiting, so...no, that's not a good reason. That's just blind faith.
A 4 star to 2 of the services isn't highly rated by Michigan standards. That's a baseline/replacement-level ranking for a Michigan player. Paul Harris, Kevin Gladney and Zach Bradshaw are some of the 3-star WRs Michigan is recruiting. I have no clue if they're good players to recruit (I'd suspect they are.). Again, my concern is not about their rankings. It's about the fact that elite speed recruits (like Devon Allen) are far less common than people with 'adequate' speed. My concern is with where the priorities and focus seems to be.
Maybe I was misunderstanding before, but is your gripe simply that, when given the choice, the coaches seem to be choosing WRs with size over ones with speed?
Guess what, nearly every other coach makes that same choice. A good S&C program can make a player faster, but it won't make him taller. Also, on most routes (anything less than 25 yards or so) the difference between a kid who can run a 4.5 and a 4.6 is negligible, but the difference between the kid who is 5'11" and 6'3" is huge. Sure, you want a guy who can run deep routes, but how many 60 yard pass plays are actually completed in college football?
But really, you listed 3 guys who are tall and not fast (though I've heard we're no longer pursuing Gladney) but those just happen to be the three lowest rated WRs we've offered out of a dozen or so. The two commits we took last year were big-ish and both fast. So just because we've offered a few guys who aren't burners doesn't mean the coaches don't want fast guys too.
I have no 'gripe' with the coaches. I have a concern that they're undervaluing speed in their quest for size.
There are many coaches out there who pass on tall wide receivers who are not fast. Jaron Dukes is 6'4 but had offers from only Illinois and Toledo. I'm confident that strength and conditioning isn't going to make Dukes an olympic sprinter. Anyway, it's not just tall kids who benefit from your purported S&C-generated speed-infusion.
The greatest short-route receivers in the NFL are not tall WRs, they are fast and quick. You're completely wrong to say in speed doesn't matter in that context. I'd argue height is more beneficial on long passes where taller receivers can leap above CBs on less accurate throws and make diving catches as well...which is why I agree with you that you don't recruit for the rare jump-ball type scenarios. You recruit Mario Manningham because he is fast and runs good routes before you recruit Adrian Arrington or Junior Hemingway...
In your world, every offense would have double TEs and 6'5 WRs... but no such teams exist. Why? Because speed matters more.
You keep saying Chesson is fast - he isn't, not for Michigan-caliber WR recruits. That's why, depite being 6'3 he was a 3-star that wasn't highly recruited. I'm sure he can be a fine player (he has an absolutely fantastic opportunity in front of him) but he's not a fast WR. Darboh is (fairly) fast, but his offers reflect that (Florida, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Wisconsin). Even he though, is not a 'burner'. He's just a quality prospect with a good mix of above average size and speed...
I'm curious why you think that height is more important than speed when neither of the 6'3 and 6'4 WRs that MIchigan brought in were highly recruited. You claim that Chesson is both fast and tall? You claim that Duke's 6'4 height is more important than his speed? But other coaches don't seem to agree - are they just stupid?
If Chesson isn't fast enough for you, no one will be.
You chose to duck my questions.
Chesson wasn't fast enough for MOST upper-tier programs. You're delusional if you think I'm being overly critical here.
Because most of the claims you make are just false. You list Manningham as a "fast" receiver, then say Chesson isn't fast. Manningham is one of the slowest of the star receivers we've had. He ran crisp routes and that made up for it, but he was by no mean fast. Meanwhile, Chesson is breaking records on the track and you say he's not fast enough. So you posts, in additional to being illogical, are simply inaccurate.
You don't know why Chesson didn't get many upper-tier offers. Maybe he attends a lightly scouted school, maybe he knew what schools he was interested in and didn't pursue many others. Maybe he didn't attend camps or his coach is a bad marketer. Maybe it's because he's more raw than some programs wanted. But to simply assume it was because of his speed is presumptuous and pretty ridiculous considering what we know about his speed.
My point was not to say "speed rules all" it was to say that speed is more important than height. Manningham is 6 foot nuthin. His 40 time, according to Rivals, was faster than Chesson's. Yet, I'm the guy making false statements here...
I asked you to back up statements like "coaches perfer height to speed" when all evidence says otherwise and you punted.
You can try to turn my statements into "speed is all that matters", but it's not at all what I said. Your attempts at counter-argument only reinforce my point. The defensive attempts to rationalize or justify every lowly ranked recruit are laughable.
The good thing is all 40 times listed on Rivals are 100% accurate.
but they're probably more accurate than LA's historical 100% recruit approval
I'm surprised you questioned the Orndoff offer. He was 6'5 240, great hands and almost ran like a WR.
They coaches may not be "infalliable", but I think they are on the right track.
First of all, as I said above, speed is the most overrated attribute of a WR. The ability to catch the football consistently and run good routes are far more important. Look at Justin Blackmon. That is the type of player Uof M is recruiting.
There aren't many Randy Moss/Calvin Johnson players out there. Treadwell is fast. Allen is fast. There are speedy recruits in there too, but hands and route running are clearly the priority. And I like that, partially because it gives us a shot at better recruits since all the spread offenses are chasing the short, fast players.
I agree that route running is more important than speed - but it can also be coached. Straight line speed may not be THAT important but overall athleticism, the ability to cut quickly, accelerate, etc. is. We're obviously just talking about raw ingrediants here, not everything that goes into being a quality player. But if we're going to bother following recruiting we have to have SOME sort of criteria right?
I have no concerns about the Treadwell or Allen pursuits - those are the kind of kids I think should be targeted.
Oh, so you're OK with the coaches recruiting the top WRs in the nation that every major school is after? Really going out on a limb there. I bet you're OK with them recruiting Su'a Cravens and Ty Isaac too, huh?
I'm not TRYING to go out on a limb. I'm trying to be rational.
Reminds me of a slightly smaller Hemingway with similar ball skills. Looks like he would be able to contribute out of the gate. Would still love to see Treadwell or another blue-chipper on-board, but I like this offer.
Moeller v. Excalibur Restaurant -- Fight!
At this point you'd save time by cutting and pasting "big and great going up to get the ball." Wouldn't be surprised to see his recruitment blow up and have him end up as a 4-star on at least one site.
Football is both an identity and a terminal illness. A rhythm and a chaos and an opiate for the mind all at once.
-Johnny Danbury (umichedme.blogspot.com)
can catch those arm punts!