2011 Defense using 2009 Scheme (em0chart)

Submitted by Captain Obvious on

Disclaimer: I have no problem with the 3-3-5 and don't want to debate its merits here.  I think the scheme should fit the personnel and get the best players on the field.  I think our 2011 defensive depth may best fit our 2009 scheme.  Check footnotes for explanations.

DE: RVB or Black*

DT: Mike Martin

DT: Ash or Campbell or QWash or ?**

DE/Deathbacker: Roh

OLB: Mike Jones***

MLB: Demens

OLB/Spinner/Stevie Brown: Kovacs****

CB: Floyd

CB: Avery or Talbott or true freshman

Box safety: Cam or Marvin*****

Deep Safety: Woolfolk******

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* Black on passing downs, RVB otherwise

** This is the gaping hole that probably necessitated the move to the 3-3-5 and will likely keep it there until another DT steps it up.

*** Another problem is that the hybrid types like T Gordon and Carvin don't have a natural position in this scheme.  They are both speedy enough to play the Mouton position but would need to bulk up to back up Mike Jones.

**** I'm starting to talk myself out of this idea because the Spinner is supposed to be the most athletic player on the field and that's not Kovacs, though a scheme without a position for Kovacs is a bad scheme.  Josh Furman is an absolute natural for this position based on his measureables, but he is too raw at the moment.

***** I think Cam would be good at Kovacs' old position, stuffing the run but occasionally asked to cover.  I do wonder whether Cam would be better at one of the OLB positions and seeing what Marvin could do at box safety since he's supposedly pretty fast and a big hitter.

****** I thought the entire defense played better with Troy at deep safety and I like the idea of a speedy and experienced player as our last line of defense.  I'd also move Cullen to back him up (along with Vinopal).  Cullen reminds me of Warren with less speed and I do not think Cullen has the speed to be a CB for us.  He does have nice size, however, like Warren, and I think with a year of bulking up and learning under Troy he could be a great deep safety.  Recall that Warren had just enough speed to get by at the college level and was immediately moved to safety in the NFL.  Cullen is currently 6'0" and 187.

Eh?  It's a bye week.

Ziff72

October 27th, 2010 at 11:23 AM ^

You do not want these guys off the field at any point.  

First we play a mulitple defense not a 3-3-5 for the last fucking time.

If you say you want a 4 man line it will be Martin, Roh, RVB, Black. 

Captain Obvious

October 27th, 2010 at 11:42 AM ^

Maybe you should settle down some.  The first line of the post is that I don't want to talk about the 3-3-5.  This is about switching back to 2 safeties, eliminating the Spur/Bandit situation and bringing back the Spinner/Deathbacker.

Also, I'm not sure how it's obvious that RVB should slide to DT and that Black can't be kept off the field.  RVB is a good DE but not the greatest pass rusher and pass rushing happens to be Black's specialty.

snowcrash

October 27th, 2010 at 12:21 PM ^

Van Bergen is light years ahead of any of the non-Martin tackles as a pass rusher. On passing downs I assume we will line up with Roh, Van Bergen, Martin, and Black as down linemen.

On normal downs, I would expect the same lineup if both: (a) Black gets a lot better against the run and (b) none of the other tackles emerges as a good space-eater. I think Van Bergen is better at strongside DE than tackle given his frame, so ideally we would use the lineup you proposed and make Black a situational pass rusher. 

Ziff72

October 27th, 2010 at 12:40 PM ^

Playing on the DL as a true freshmen is a heroic task.  Black will get stronger next year and become a lot better against the run.

It is hard to deny his ability when you see him play.  Some may think I am overboard, but I see a great player.  Not a guy who can start or be all Big Ten put a NFL player.   Maybe he won't be Graham but I see a guy that could be real close.  If he doesn't progress than yeah maybe he is just a pass rusher, but I see it hard to imagine this guy not being a starter on a defense that is in need of some play makers.   With Martin demanding doubles he will be free to cause a lot of damage.

Ziff72

October 27th, 2010 at 12:35 PM ^

I'm a psycho because I used a swear word?  You need to lighten up Francis.

The fact that he said he wanted to go back to the 2009 scheme and referenced the 3-3-5 and didn't want to discuss it's merits leads me to believe he thinks we run a 3-3-5.

It has been referenced on this blog a thousand times, Brian had it on the front page, but people still cling to this.  It is incorrect and frustrating.

Also, please watch the 2006 defense every snap against Penn St and notice the multiple fronts and several uses of oh my the 3-3-5.

RVB  is conservatively our 3rd or 4th defensive player and J. Black has shown flashes of greatness and you want to rotate these guys so that guys who are nowhere close to being ready to play this year get 100% of the snaps next year?

willywill9

October 27th, 2010 at 11:54 AM ^

I think I'd rather see Woolfolk at CB.  I don't know why yo, I just do.  Perhaps that'd allow us to be able to jam WRs at the line again and disrupt timing and what not.

caup

October 27th, 2010 at 12:08 PM ^

I disagree.

A defense that is so good and deep that it no loger needs to play a slow undersized walk-on is worthy of being called a "Michigan Defense."

Captain Obvious

October 27th, 2010 at 12:16 PM ^

Also, why the bias?  When has his lack of speed been an issue this year?  He's almost always in the right position and is a great tackler.  Every defense needs that.  I don't ever want to ask him to cover a deep half as he did in 09, but recall that he was a freshman and coming off a significant knee injury as well.  I think he can hang with TEs and stuffs the run VERY well, so I want him on the field.  Just not as a safety.

Farnn

October 27th, 2010 at 12:24 PM ^

Almost getting the interception against Iowa in the first quarter comes to mind.  If he were a half step quicker, he would have probably returned that for a touchdown.

But I really can't complain about Kovacs, he's played exceptionally well and given his all for the team.

Captain Obvious

October 27th, 2010 at 12:32 PM ^

but this is a bad example.  First, it hit him in the hands.  He was in a position to intercept and just flat out screwed up.  Second, his abilities and instincts put him in a position to make a play on the ball and that is his greatest asset.  We can't guarantee that another player would have been in the right spot or that his athletic ability would have been enough to overcome being in the wrong place.  Of course, if there's another player with Kovacs' fundamentals and better athletic abilities, put him in there.  I just haven't seen it yet.

Farnn

October 27th, 2010 at 12:41 PM ^

I agree, I was just pointing out one time when him beeing a tiny bit faster could have changed the game for us.  It did hit him in the hands, but he had to make a bit of a jump with outstretched arms  to touch the ball.  Being a bit closer could have given him time to concentrate more on the interception than the pass break-up.

MightAndMainWeCheer

October 27th, 2010 at 2:21 PM ^

RVB-Black:  I don't see why you would take RVB out for Black under any circumstance unless RVB gets tired.  RVB doesn't get to the QB as much as Graham or Woodley did, but he still pressures the QB every now and then.  I can't remember Black even getting close to a QB once.  Against the run, RVB holds up well; Black has been a huge liability in our rush defense since he gets either blown back or hooked every time which leads to giant holes for the offense to exploit.  Obviously the coaches see something in Black, and he is a true freshman who will get stronger/quicker/bigger with a full year in a college strength and conditioning program, but I expect RVB to improve next year too.  My hope is that RVB continues to play most of the snaps at DE and Black emerges as a viable backup.

Spinner/Steve Brown Position:  Why can't Carvin or T Gordon play this position instead of Kovacs?  Carvin and T Gordon have shown that they are reliable tacklers, and they have been reliable in knowing their assignments.  They have shown that they are at least as good as Kovacs in taking on blocks (in my opinion, I think they may be better at taking on blocks).  They certainly have more speed than Kovacs.

Deathbacker: Roh basically still plays that right now.  He switches back and forth between DE and LB regardless of whether we are in a 3-3-5 or 4-man front.

Secondary:  This is every uncertain.  It all depends on whether Woolfolk returns at 100% speed/quickness or still has some subtle lingering issues (ala Vincent Smith).  Any loss of speed/quickness would force Woolfolk to play FS.  Assuming that Woolfolk is back to full speed, it comes down to who are are more comfortable with: C Gordon at FS or one of the three freshman (this year's freshman) at CB.  I'm hoping that one of Christian, Talbott or Avery can emerge as a viable starting CB which would allow Woolfolk to play deep safety and C Gordon to play the box safety.

macgoblue10

October 27th, 2010 at 3:00 PM ^

Kovacs shouldnt be anywhere near the line of scrimage. The player in the spot you have him needs to be able to get off blocks, Kovacs is brutal at this because hes so small. Talk "Former" Walk-On all you want with him.... he will always be an undersized walk on. Does he plug holes? Sure. Does he tackle well? At times. Does he get dragged 3-5 yards on most tackles? YEP! Thats why he sucks, sorry to burst your obvious Kovacs Man Love Bubble.

Its stupid to think that Carvin or Thomas Gordon will start all year, then go to not playing. Why are we moving Woolfolk to Safety? Thats stupid too, Avery and Tallbot, or Cam with another year under his belt.... I'll take Cam over those two. We need contributions from players like Furman, Herron, and does anyone else think M. Jones is to small to play LB besides me?

Your front 3 on 85% of downs next year better be RVB, Martin, Black. Ash and Q are short yardage players next season.

Captain Obvious

October 27th, 2010 at 6:31 PM ^

Woolfolk played Safety for significant periods during 2009 and that's when our defense was the most effective, right?  But hey, the "you're stupid" argument is pretty compelling.

BTW, if we have a Tallbot I want him on the field.  A giant robot patrolling the secondary sounds pretty intimidating.

AC1997

October 28th, 2010 at 1:37 AM ^

Wow, that was a passionate response macgoblue10.  I must say that I disagree somewhat.

While Kovacs will always be limited and while being "consistent" and "reliable" on this lousy defense makes you seem better than you probably are, I think you're far more negative on Kovacs than is warranted.  Whenever he's blitzed he's never missed an assignment.  He's in the right spot almost all the time.  He's covered TE's far better this year than last.  And he's probably missed fewer tackles than any other player on the squad.  I also don't have a vision of him getting dragged 5 yards every time he tackles.  He isn't a MLB who can take on guards head on, but he's solid as a tweener LB and far better than at deep safety.

I also found it odd that you rip Mike Jones for being small yet hope to see Herron, Furman, Avery, and Talbott play more. 

I do agree somewhat with your logic that moving the Gordon's and Johnson to the bench is unlikely.  But generally I like this concept of a base 4-3 D. 

AC1997

October 28th, 2010 at 1:45 AM ^

All defenses will shuffle personnel and alignment based on situations - that's a given.  But I like aspects of this 4-3 base idea. 

For starters, one position we actually have depth  on the D (though it is insanely young) is at DE.  Having two conventional (speed, limited size) DE on the field most of the time plays to that depth.  I do agree that you offset the need for two DT by moving RVB back to the middle, where he can be a significant upgrade over everyone not named Martin and buy time for the young guys to develop. 

The question of what to do with the Gordon/Gordon/Johnson/Robinson/Kovacs situation (and add Furman and Hawthorne if you wish) can be solved by putting one of them as the third LB and the other as the strong safety. 

If Michigan can find two decent corners (and that remains to be seen), I prefer having Woolfolk at deep safety.  I have seen him play well at that position and help the team.  I have not seen him do anything note worthy at corner and he's coming off a gruesome leg injury that will affect his cuts.  He's the only guy on the roster (minus maybe Vinopal) who is suited to play center field on this defense.  But if Talbot, Christian, Avery, or an incoming freshman don't take control of the other corner spot you might have to live with Woolfolk at corner and Gordon at safety. 

And say what you will about Mike Jones being small, but I think he's your starter for sure.  Maybe Isiah Bell, Jake Ryan, or one of the hybrid guys can push him for that spot, but he looked okay early this season and seems suited for that spot.  Larry Foote and Jonas Mouton weren't very big and they did fine there....usually.