And Section 1 post in 5...4...3...2...
11 Warriors Article on diff. between Hoke & RR
that somehow gets placed in the top few comments on seemingly 25% of all board posts to be far more annoying and played out than Section 1's actual comments.
It's more of a preemptive strike. Some here foolishly believe by pointing out how tired the schtick in question is, the less likely they will be to have to scroll through the same 5 page essay to get to the interesting comments/lolcats.
Although I would gladly deal with this in every single thread if it meant I never had to see Rojo, Dee Hart, Stefon Diggs, Kris Frost, Demar Dorsey, etc "jokes" again. They are beyond old.
I feel like I've already read this article....7,000 goddam times.
I would bet it's a hell of a lot more than that. Now even TSIO blogs are trying to beat a dead horse, next thing you know we'll have Illini fans talking about it
Let the negbangs begin. Whatever, can't say I'm surprised. Still, as I said above, I'm kind of nonplussed that they would use so much of their column space at an Ohio site with an article about Michigan. And while I knew that there were several Michigan players who didn't like Hoke, this suggests that was the feeling of most of the team. That is news to me.
You said Hoke, but I think you meant Rich Rod. I can't imagine any player disliking Hoke, which is one of the main reasons he is a recruiting master.
And now I can't edit & fix it. C'est la Vie.
Because you posted something, then ended the post by saying it just doesn't matter. If it doesn't matter, why post it? And if it DOES matter, then don't try to cover up bringing it up again, stick to your convictions. I neg for wishy-washy.
I'm glad Hoke is our coach. I don't really want to rehash RR ad nausem.
At the same time, I found it interesting that 11W put up the article. And I have also been curious about what those who played under RR really thought.
So, on the one hand, I don't care to foster analysis about RR. On the other, I'd be interested in hearing more about what the actual players under him and Hoke thought in comparing the two.
How's that for waffling?
The odds of finding it out here? Probably not too high.
on an OSU blog, for that matter.
My feeling on the OP as a whole is that clearly the MgoCommunity hasn't worked out its feelings about where the RR era fits into the 140-year history (after all, it's still not too long ago) and posts like this serve as a huge vent for accumulated explosive gases that might be harmful otherwise.
After Bo died, we thought we were a community and found out during the RR era that some people so put their factions over the good of the program as a whole that sabotage was possible. I like having the discussion out in the open better.
This is behind a paywall, so someone definitely should take it down if it's inappropriate to post, but it's a couple months old and is just one part of a very interesting, worthwhile piece from Michael Rothstein at ESPN.
It's from a survey of Michigan's graduating seniors (who just finished in 2012).
Did you like Rich Rodriguez?
• Yes -- 8
• As a person, yes, but he wasn't a good coaching fit -- 6
• Neutral -- 2
• No, but he did positive things as well -- 1
• No -- 2
Most of these answers were much more nuanced, but these categories boiled down their general points when it came to Rodriguez.
Did you like Brady Hoke?
• Yes -- 19
The Rodriguez results don't strike me as great or terrible. For Hoke, though, that's pretty amazing, considering that he didn't recruit any of those kids and they all had only a year with him.
I feel like a lot of that has to do with winning. I bet if it was Rich Rod coaching last year and won 11 games, then he would have gotten close to 19 yes.
Maybe to some extent, but I think Hoke is just a really likeable guy. He's the type who you would want to sit down and have a six pack with.
Well he didn't win 11 games in one season, he won 15 games in 3 seasons, pathetic at the winningest program in history. I don't care what DC he woulda brought in, people assume that if we only coulda hired Casteel that everything would've been hunky-dory, I just didn't believe it then nor now. My insincts indicated to me during the middle of the 2008 season that we were in for a brutal era w/RR and I was hoping I was wrong but I'm usually accurate with these things.
I've been keeping this to myself for a couple years but I feel now is the time to share this:
-RR created a feeling of paranoia on the team, in 2009 a player who was not able to play anymore and was made a team mgr was ordered by RR and Staff to report on guys for smoking weed and stuff like that and narced on Tate Forcier and another player and players didn't know who they could trust anymore.
-RR had people perusing blogs to see if they could filter out who was talking shit about him or the rest of the the Staff, I bet Hoke doesn't worry about this sort of thing.
-During the practice week of that infamous 67-65 OT win over the Illini in 2010, Tate was running the 1st team in practice and hurt his ankle on a play and was trying to tell RR that he tweaked his ankle and should have it looked at, RR kept screaming at him and not believing Tate was hurt and when Tate finally could barely walk and they took off his cleat and saw how black and blue the ankle was, RR says to Tate "hey you gonna be alright by game time"? Well thank god he was cause he came in to that game and saved our asses and we luckily had a winning record that year, finally!
These are things I heard from the family, I'm not making it up and don't know the exact validity of them, however, the results and overall mood of the program suggest they were true, so make of it what you will.
Me thinks the anger in your writing about something that is long over tells me that you might be the kind of person who holds a grudge and doesn't get over stuff very easily. Why pour more fuel on a fire that has almost been trampled to death with rumors and my friend and friend of friend type allegations?
Lastly, and most importantly, always remember that winning cures all...
I agree this is +1 interesting, but not for the reasons people may think. :)
"I've been keeping this to myself for a couple years but I feel now is the time to share this ..."
Oh, really? Much like the comment included in the OP, I'm inclined to say what you provided is BS until proven otherwise.
"My insincts indicated to me during the middle of the 2008 season that we were in for a brutal era w/RR and I was hoping I was wrong but I'm usually accurate with these things."
Wow -- what a Nostradamus you are! Never mind the QB situation or one of the least talented offensive teams of the modern era.
I can at least *imagine* RichRod doing all those things. Doesn't mean they actually happened ...
>> ordered by RR and Staff to report on guys for smoking weed
This is a bad thing?
>>narced on Tate Forcier
Also I have absolutely no problem with this. Potheads like Forcier can GTFO. Anyone remember Kelly Baraka?
It's a bad thing if it leads to a widespread sense of distrust among teammates. I've no idea if it did, obviously, but its much better if pressure not to violate team rules comes from within the team, rather than from the belief that a teammate sold someone out.
In my haste to post my comment I failed to point out that it was not true that he had smoke weed from what I was told.
Also, please read my last paragraph before you jump down my throat. I said I'm not sure of the validity of the claims I heard of but the results and the mood of the program indicated they might be true.
The OP asked for opinions, rumors and grapevine stuff and I obliged, why are so many people on here so defensive when it comes to RR? You act as if he was successful or something. That story I heard about the Illini week practice came from his uncle who was visiting his nephew that week after having gone to the PSU night game the previous week and he was so pissed at RR's behavior that he left practice, this is what I heard, again I'm not making it up. But many people have said that RR's treatment of the players was misguided, I'm not the 1st or last guy you will hear this from, sorry if I have pissed off some of you.
I hope you feel better after venting. Other than that, there is no reason for people to post these kinds of comments anymore. There is no room on the Board for hearsay (yes, everything you stated in your post is hearsay) about Rich Rodriguez anymore.
this place would be awfully quiet.
Hearsay is great. Just not when it concerns Rich Rodriguez. Not anymore.
And it's hearsay without any attempt at providing context.
- In 2009, Rodriguez probably had good reason to feel a little bit paranoid what with the media actively trying to screw him over, tepid departmental support, and a lack of senior leadership. Can you imagine the headlines if some of the underclassmen like Forcier were caught smoking weed? Normally, that would be the type of thing you could have your seniors taking care of in house, but we didn't have many seniors to speak of at this point.
- A coach trying to gauge the morale of his team? What a novel idea. So Rodriguez is the first coach who ever tried to find and isolate players who had bad attitudes and try and keep them from ruining the chemistry of the lockroom. No, no, Rich Rod is Big Brother! Beware! What Orwellian hogwash.
- Forcier had already proven himself to be a bit of a discipline case, what with losing his wings, other players criticizing his offseason work ethic, and the trouble with this grades. I'm willing to give Rich the benefit of the doubt for him questioning Forcier complaining about an injury rather than interpret that he was running some kind of sweatshop. If Forcier couldn't convince his coach he was really hurt, he probably bears some responsibility for leaving that doubt in Rodriguez's mind.
Now granted, my explanation is just as much hearsay as Mick's, but without the Machiavellian overtones. Context people.
Rich Rodriguez made a lot of mistakes. So did Bil Martin...and Mary Sue Coleman....and Lloyd Carr.....and so on. The man is gone. It's not necessary to piss on his grave and descrate his memory for Christ's sake.
so i am going to call bullshit on this one. tate was all over facebook with pictures of his awesome life with parties and hotties. you didn't have to retain a narc to spy on the players. and the general tone of your post hints at an emotional reaction rather than an intellectual one which my understanding is frowned upon here.
I bet if it was Rich Rod coaching last year and won 11 games, then he would have gotten close to 19 yes.
This is kind of a chicken/egg thing. Do players like the coach because the team wins, or does the team win because the players like the coach and want to play their hardest for him? It may be a little of both.
And you knew it could reflect on your team's effort and character...
How representative can these answers really be? Remember, these are thoroughly educated Michigan athletes. Especially this class. Post-practicegate, you think they dont know their answers will reflect on themselves and their school?
is a majority of players. You can tell the article came from an Ohio perspective.
But if you look at it from the other perspective, only eight of 19 could give an unqualified "yes." And these were last year's seniors - the guys who stuck it out through three years of Rodriguez and one of Hoke. This survey doesn't sample the opinions of all the guys who left the program early.
But anyhow, to me the most telling bit of info is that all 19 seniors gave Hoke a "Yes," despite the fact that none were recruited by him. That's an incredible endorsement. It seems almost too good to believe.
"I really don't care. RR is gone. Hoke is tremendous. Let sleeping dogs lie, and don't beat dead horses. "
I couldn't have said it better myself.
I'd be willing to bet that the players definitely didn't hate RRod. My evidence is that poll above this post and the fact that a lot of the players were upset/surprised when he got fired.
I also do not think the majority of the players hated RR. From what few connections I have to the program, the general buzz around RR and the players, and other accounts, I never got the impression that most players hated him. Sure a few did not appreciate him, his methods, or their lack of playing time, but I think the survey does a better job at least cutting into the very nuanced manner in which the players viewed RR. Additionally, the whole put their heads down and waited the season out when the losing started was really only a theme during the third year as it started during the second year. However, I could see some truth to that. I think even reading 3&Out would give you that impression.
After a very long day and a horrible workout, this really helped...
The players did not like Rich Rod. Anyone who, you know, actually straight up asked the players this, friend to friend, heard that. I asked a couple of friends on the team (non starters) about what they thought. Every single one of them liked Hoke more.
RR was a drag to play for. Hoke was different, practice was actually, fun under him. The defense especially was overjoyed to have a real coach. Their words not mine
I LOL hard when people like Section 1, who basically live in a fantasy world of their own, pretend Rich Rod was beloved by everyone but the Freep. The friggin team did not like him. There's not much else to say.
It'd be entirely coherent - and maybe even likely - if the median player view was to like RR but like Hoke a lot more.
You are confirming what I suspected.
I heard from the father of a potential recruit who was at a practice with RR that the yelling and screaming was not fun. I've been around enough football coaches because of my son playing on the DL. (albeit at a much lower level.) Nonetheless, it isn't a whole lot of fun when someone is yelling and screaming and in your face all the time. Mind you, I think that Mattison and Borges and Hoke are also very intense, but they are directed, and not yelling all the time, from what little I've heard.
I think that Mattison and Borges and Hoke are also very intense, but they are directed, and not yelling all the time, from what little I've heard.
I'll never forget the Michigan - OSU game this past year when punter Will Hagerup fumbled the snap. Hoke's treatment of Hagerup was calm and aimed at getting Hagerup's mind back to the game, not on the mistake. Hoke was disappointed, no doubt, but he did not let that rule his reaction.
And one that my wife compared with Rich Rod right away, She said "If Dick Rod was the coach I'd be feeling sorry for the kid, But look how Brady handles the situatuion".
Everyone in our section that heard her nodded their heads in agreement.
You stay classy, San Diego.
But that is the way a lot of the most successful coaches got and get results. Bo and Woody were very intense and difficult to play for AND world class screamers and yellers.
Don't forget about a guy like Saban. He's a dick (and probably the MGoBlog villian), but his players also have nothing but positive things to say about him
From talking with a former defensive player the shift from RR to Hoke was from "yelling" to "teaching."
Bo definitely yelled, but there was a lot of teaching going on, too. Obviously the RR coaches were trying to teach, but at least on the defensive side of the ball, it does not sound (nor did it look) like they were very good at it.
I LOL hard when people like Section 1, who basically live in a fantasy world of their own, pretend Rich Rod was beloved by everyone but the Freep. The friggin team did not like him. There's not much else to say.
Find a quote. Show the Board where I was trying to "pretend [that] Rich Rod was beloved by everyone but the Freep." Get to work, asshole. Because I'll be waiting for the proof.
If you want a great big over-generalization of what I've written on this Board, it was mostly the same things that were later shown to have been true in Three and Out. And it still isn't even all that clear; but there were many people who seemed to be less than supportive of Rodriguez.
The funny and really stupid thing about what you wrote is that far from being in any "fantasy world," I have done a lot less guessing about "factions" than some others, because the facts and the records haven't been so clear. But because the Free Press put its story into print, and then the NCAA and Michigan put their findings on the record, the story of the Free Press' wrongdoing has been really clear.
Isn't it just hilarious? The original Freep publisher's response dismissed all criticism of the Rosenberg-Snyder reporting as having come essentially from Michigan fanboys. So who are the fanboys now?
real coaches get triple the salary of not-real coaches.
It makes complete sense that 11 Warriors still has no clue in the article as to what makes a Michigan Man. They still think it's three yards and a cloud of dust.
Taking a step back the article is really about leadership. What do great leaders do:
1) (Institutional Support) Build and care for the institutional support around them.
2) (Michigan Man) Lead with integrity and character and are beyond reproach.
3) (Defensive Coordinator) Recruit great people (defensive coaches and players) to follow them.
Oh and 4, the best leaders truely care about the men and women they lead.
when you consider this:
Things were great for the first 5-6 weeks of the seasons when they were winning
As far as 3-9, even a commenter with an OSU avatar can see this from the banks of the Olentangy:
Michigan being too cheap to get Jeff Castell + No QB = Fail
This article doesn't seem like a huge amount of space to spend on a major rival. It is Spring, after all.
I thought at the time that we lucked out with RR because he actually turned out to be serious, even passionate, about creating a family atmosphere and with his focus on quality off-the-field behavior, emphasizing grades, sitting his #1 punter for OSU for disciplinary reasons, etc. I thought the lazy repetitions of the MSM meme about "sleazy" did a serious injustice to the truth about RR. I was/am also one of those who thinks three years is maybe one year too early to pull the plug on anybody who doesn't crash a motorbike with a mistress on board or something similar, maybe the opposite of giving Weiss five years, perhaps one too many. At any rate, all the coaches involved either way, and the schools that fired them, are going on with their lives.
I also think we lucked out with Hoke. I was covering my eyes when the talk was around Harbaugh and Miles; I had seen enough comments about Harbaugh from commenters over the years on this site to make me wonder how long it would be before something unpleasant happened with Harbaugh in charge, although he is very good at what he does. With the Hoke hire, UM continues an unbroken tradition of coaching with the highest ethics and concern with the welfare of the young ones under the coach's responsibility. (I'm not fooled by the Rosenberg/Snyder hit job for a minute, thanks to the detailed desconstructions we saw first on this site.)
It also turns out that Hoke is an aggressive but effective game-manager and an outstanding recruiter. And rather than cheap out on a DC for the sake of $10,000, our new AD decided to compete price-wise with the NFL to make sure the boys are ready to play.
A few breaks in scheduling helped us out last year. May the good times continue.
Re: the "Michigan Man Culture" -- this is, I believe, a more nuanced thing than I think many in the sports media understand.
I've seen some accounts -- often mocking of the "Michigan Man" concept (spoken with the little finger quote gesture and an eye roll) -- that seemed to imply there's a set of codified beliefs that make someone a "Michigan Man."
To my eye it boils down to an appreciation and humble acknowledgement of one's role within a rich line of history and tradition. That's where Hoke's now famous, "This is Michigan, for God's sake!" statement came from.
I don't think RR fully appreciated that when he first got here. I'm not sure I would have had my life to that point been fully outside the Michigan tradition. But I think RR left with a much better sense for it. Too late, perhaps, but I do believe he did.
I live in Tucson and it's clear he learned his lesson. He's exhibited a much greater sense of the Arizona Wildcat tradition -- such as it is -- since he arrived here.
I went to the Arizona spring game a few weeks back. I can report the fans here are as excited about Rodriguez as the coach as Michigan was leading up to that first year. I truly do think Rodriguez will do fine here at Arizona. It won't be easy -- recruiting to Arizona is not like recruiting to Michigan; Arizona is not a really rich football state; and good recruits in CA and TX draw the attention of many schools (USC, Texas, Oregon, etc.). Still, he has Casteel with him and Arizona fans are not quite as intense as Michigan fans. He'll have a grace period.
A cursory glance at Arizona recruiting shows that Rodriguez isn't doing all that poorly so far. He was able to hold onto a couple of 4ish star guys who commited to Stoops for the 2012 class, and he's got a couple of 4ish star guys in his 6 man 2013 class. For lack of a better comparison, its Michigan Stateish. The two years before they had 5 total 4ish guys, so it also seems comparable to what Stoops did there, obviously with time to improve that '13 class.
But where's the next Pat White? That's the question. :-)
verbally committed for next year. But I think you should be asking where's the next Denard Robinson?
Yeah, I thought about that as I typed "Pat White."
But in the end I stuck with Pat White because I have a gut feel that Pat White is the ideal in RR's mind ... running, passing, etc. Actually, I sense the success he had with White / Slaton created a kind of "blind spot" ... i.e., try to recreate that model even if other paths to success might exist with the talent on hand.
Just my musing ... and I confess I could be totally wrong about that.
His offense is going to struggle badly this year, but this time around he has his defensive coordinator. They just picked up a borderline 3/4* QB recruit who looks solid, and I wouldn't be surprised if they ended up finishing fairly high in the Pac 12 once he matures.
Here's to hoping that I'm not the only MGoBlogger pulling for Rodriguez in Arizona.
Actually, I do think you're TheOnlyOne...
I see what you did there...
You're also the only one to receive an upvote from TheOnlyOne, mostly because I just topped 100 points.
But I really cant help but be curious how he does there. It's like keeping track of that girl you broke up with in high school. You want her to do well, but not TOO well.
Yes, but can he hold onto these 4 stars and players in general?
I love(d) RR, huge supporter of him during his time here and hopefully he will challenge USC in the coming years but damn man I believe it was the '09 class thats seen a near 50% attrition rate with a lot of those who were considered potential starters leaving and as such killing the depth chart.
to your post or an argument with it in any way, but your post reminds me that we further owe RR for his part in a really seamless and quiet transition to the Hoke era; particularly his advice to his most noteworthy recruit. I think we owe him good wishes (except against UM in the Rose Bowl) just for the contrast between the saga of Mallett and D-Rob.
I don't mind seeing this post especially since the site has been dreadfully boring the past couple days...even though some of the comments make me want to punch myself in the head to get rid of my deja vu of having talked about this 2 billion other times.
My biggest question about Rich Rod is whether he really learned from his mistakes or not. I remember him talking about how he wasn't surprised at all that Michigan was succeeding because most of the players were his and maturing but I really hope he realizes the benefit coaching had and how he failed those defensive players he considered an afterthought
Not that I disagree with an of he three points made by 11W, but it's somewhat irritating that a fourth reason that Hoke had more success than RR did isn't mentioned: he had better players - not "basically the same players."
Jr returning starter heirs an trophy candidate at QB
Actual returning starters on the OL including the Rimington award winner
Senior versions of Mike Martin and Ryan Van Bergen
Junior version of Jordan Kovacs
Depth at WR
Let's not forget who we had starting on offense in RR's first year.
11W should be making comparisons between Meyer and Rodriguez to see if there are any similarities because, ultimately, that is what they are afraid of...
Great Insight. Duh, of course. As Ohio considers and ponders what Meyer will bring, this is the great unknown for them: Will Meyer be like Rodriguez? For all their braggadocia, some Ohio fans are scared. Of course, Meyer has already achieved more than RR ever did. And Meyer recruited better than RR ever did, both last year and already in the current recruiting cycle.
But yes, I think you are on the right track. Meyer hasn't played a single game yet, and Ohio fans are a bit afraid about what this year will bring. I have two different thoughts on that.
- First, I suspect Ohio will do better than Michigan did under RR in the first year (think: Sheridan - Threet disaster, vs. Braxton Miller.)
- Second, I also think the transition from Tressel ball to Meyer is going to be more difficult than Ohio anticipates. They're in for some rough sledding, especially against Michigan State, Michigan, and the other big boys.
Meyer will succeed with ease at Ohio because he is set up for success.
Rodriguez did not succeed because he was not set up for success and then he himself helped snowball his demise.
Simple as that.
with both of your thoughts on this, Stephen.
Meyer is a good coach and good recruiter and my assumption is he will be successful, but I don't think Ohio will dominate as they had done under Tressel for a variety of reasons.
Given how much success Ohio has had over the past decade, and how great their expectactions are, I think it will be interesting to see what the fans do when they start to struggle.
my vote for the Nostradamus award goes to "Rick," writing here from the OSU point of view at the blog "Waiting for Next Year," for comments in a Feb. 4, 2008 intervew with Brian Cook, in which he saw things none of us wanted to see, including Brian, and wrote proleptically with acumen approaching hindsight:
Much of Michigan’s recent problems have been because of the defense in my opinion, how is that being addressed and will they be improved this year?
[BC] Uh… how recent? Despite a couple of rough games in ’05, that was still a lights-out unit statistically. This year it was considerably uglier.
[Rick]Well, looking at games against Ohio State and bowl opponents since 2003, Michigan is giving up 31.8 points per contest, including the 14 points that Ohio State got on a sloppy field this year.
It is dizzying to go back and read predictions, like Brian's, from that era in the harsh light of hindsight.
It seems to me that OHIO is in a very different boat than Michigan was. I would compare Meyer's success at Utah to RR's at West Virginia, but Meyer proved himself at a big-time program at Florida before taking over the OHIO program. That, combined with his previous experience at OHIO lowered the risk considerably for them. The shift from sometimes-spread to mostly-spread will not be a big deal.
The use of the unusual word "nonplussed" above is perfect for threads like this. It has two perfectly opposite meanings, and I have no clue which meaning the poster may have meant. I still churn with two perfectly opposite emotions inside about the RR era, and I suspect that they will never be resolved.
jhackney nuking this thread in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.........................damn
/Curtain rises on 11W Headquarters
11W Leader: Our efforts have proceeded brilliantly, and our dastardly plans are nearly ready to unleash. But how can we distract the MGoMods long enough to succeed?
Nameless 11W Flunky #1: We could call Hoke fat again.
11W Leader: C'mon, that'll keep them busy for what, ten minutes?
Nameless 11W Flunky #2: Uh... Bring up the whole Rich Rod thing again?
11W Leader: Good. Good. Now we're talking. COMMENCE TROLLING.
So often people around here say "oh, 11 Warriors are the REASONABLE Ohio fans", which, yeah, sure, maybe on a curve. But it's still pretty awful writing.
and the MGoBoard as also one of the best.
The main page content here is wonderful, of course. Brian & Co. do a great job. The MGoBoard is highly useful, for fast-breaking events, serving as a gigantic aggregator of Twitter news and other social media breaks, particuarly for people like me who have neither the time nor the inclination to follow that stuff personally.
But I also like to think of the Board as a place for some above-average intelligent fan commentary; and comments like this one; "it's still pretty awful writing" just leave me feeling a little embarassed as to how outsiders might view the quality of this Board. When in fact Eleven Warriors posts some really excellent writing and content, day after day.
And a front page article.
Though I'd be careful what you say about others when you you double semi-colon, write "embarassed" (which you should be "embarrassed" by), and end with a fragment. Again, glass houses.
Some of the comments are great on 11 warriors. There are dozens of posters commenting about being friends with Michigan fans. So, without further ado I also admit I have 2 friend's that are ohio grads and fans. Both are great people that I enjoy talking B1G football and the rivalry with.
BISB! Mods! For the love of all things Tremendous BAN the imposter! He's a trojan horse with all his OHIO friends.
I've been a sleeper troll cell for the past 3 years and 8 months. Now is the time to show my true identity.
I know few here will like the comparison, but it has always struck me that there was a lot more similarities between RR and Weiss than most people care to admit. This similarity is all the more apparent in the contrast between RR and Hoke. We all remember the hubris of Weiss and his "decided schematic advantage." It seems to me that RR was first and foremost a "scheme" guy.
I remember the early days of RR how we salivated over the system. We were going to finally have a modern offence here and with the calibre of athletes who will just line up to play at Michigan because its Michigan and we will destory all. But one thing that became apparent over time, especially as the team faltered is that scheme came ahead of fundamentals. In the RR era the teams were fundamentally bad. To me the similarities between him and Weiss have always amused me, except that Weiss may be a better recruiter. Neither man really teaches fundamentals. Its all about "installing their offence." Both men think their scheme and offensive genius will eventually win the day. Both have yet to prove themselves on the biggest stages of college football as head coaches.
The funny thing is that both Hoke and RR are "aww shucks" kind of guys. But the biggest thing that stands out with Hoke and especially the defensive staff is how they preach and teach fundamentals. Also, they seem to sell the school ahead of themselves or the scheme.
Weiss. Miss U Big Guy xoxo
It's Weis. Otherwise it's good stuff.
From a season/recruiting/hype after first year standpoint, Hoke and Weiss are pretty much mirror image.
The difference being, Hoke is a great guy and Weiss is an asshole.
But people are so quick to annoint saviors and failures as fans, they fail (or choose not?) to acknowledge that Hoke and Weiss had seasons that were eerily similar.
I actually contrasted this in another thread a while ago, wish I could find it.
Very nice summary, Jeff. Good work.
One meta-comment, regarding 11W. Is there another blog in the Conference (in the country?!) that would have done this sort of clear-eyed, fair, reasonable, informative appraisal of a rival's history? I think not. There is some very good content at MGoBlog; but none of it is as non-partisan as this is
No offense intended to StephenR, but is anyone else as excited to read College Football 99 today as I am? It can't be any worse than another destructive Rich Rodriguez discussion . . .
I was late to reading Three and Out, but one aspect of Rich Rodriguez's tenure as Michigan's Head Football Coach that I believe was significantly downplayed in the book was the one event that really might’ve marked the beginning of Rich Rodriguez’s downfall at Michigan.
Years from now, Rich Rodriguez’s trade of Michigan’s Defensive Coordinator Scott Shafer to Syracuse in exchange for the worst head coach in Syracuse football history and the only one to have produced two seasons of double-digit losses, and then making that man Michigan’s Defensive Coordinator will be viewed far less favorably than the New York Mets trading Nolan Ryan to the California Angels for Jim Fregosi.
At the time of the Ryan-Fregosi trade in December 1971, Fregosi had been an All-Star in 1964 and every year from 1966 through 1970. During the four seasons when Shafer’s replacement coached at Syracuse, the Orange were 10-37 (3-25 in the Big East.)
I suspect that Rich Rodriguez has nightmares of the day when he decided on Scott Shafer’s replacement.
Brady coaches Michigan. Rich coaches Arizona. That's all that matters anymore.
Rich was coaching Michigan, and Brady was coaching San Diego State. But that wasn't "all that mattered" to some at that time.
In 2008 and 2010, Brian was writing articles on the difference between Brady and Rich.
And we all saw how that turned out.
But like flies on shit, M-Wolverine can be found all over any RR thread, despite being so over the man.
We don't really need to hear what Ohio State fans have to say about our coaches, and that it's over, man. Only people like you are still fighting the war you lost. Defend myself from personal attacks? Sure. I mean, I can't stop you from being obsessed with ME. (Love how you negged every post). Now that, THAT'S sad. But don't ever change. Your tears are so...delicious.
You are always on every RR thread.
And the only person I've ever seen emotionally break down on this site is you, after this year's Minnesota game. It was truly pathetic to see that on an internet forum.
Keep being pathetic.
You only seem to see the Rich Rod ones...so who's obsessed?
But I know you're in the fetal position in front of your keyboard when you get down to the name calling. Since you've lost everything that involves reason and argument, that's all you have left. Hopefully someday you'll become an adult like the rest of us.
Bahaha, please, you're probably twice my age and fling personal insults about on an internet message board.
You also can't let go of any little grudge on an internet message board.
So really, whose the immature one?
Its okay, you don't have to answer, but you will because you're pathetic and you need the last word.
Its okay bitter old man, you can have your little victory.
I thought we banned you from the Michigan fanbase till the last of the RR guys were gone? You know since you considered them all failures and the tarnish on your precious view of Michigan football.
something like "No more 11 Warriors articles from me."
That didn't last long. We get it. As a major fan blog of a major Michigan rival, they are going to talk about Michigan..... a lot.
For the love of Kate Upton, stop bringing it over here, ESPECIALLY if it is in regards to the coach whose name shall not be spoken.
Seems to me that all this is saying is:
There's a huge range of opinions on Rodriguez's time here.
There seems to be consensus on the things Hoke has done with the team.
And drawing too many conclusions beyond that may be unreasonable and/or unfair.
A surprisingly high number of the comments at That Website Down South (hur hur?) are surprisingly fair-minded and lucid, and it's fine they're going to be homers that dislike their rival because all fans are. But I'm still puzzled at how *every* one of them to a man or woman (in between their collective circlejerk to Urban Meyer) to harp on the "Detard can't pass hur hur" meme.
I can admit that Braxton Miller near singlehandedly pwned our back seven in part because we weren't game planning for actual pass plays but mostly because he's super talented. To see Buckeye fans ignore Denard threading more needles than Betsy Ross against their secondary... that's kinda like Elmer Fudd pooh-poohing Bugs Bunny's talent for subterfuge.
I finally found Three and Out (hard to find it in a Barnes and Noble in Springfield, IL -- this is Illini land here *rolls eyes*)............and read it last weekend. My take from this is that the players do love Rich, but just hated losing...
But I've always said it from the beginning to my other Big Ten friends, Rich didn't have the right DC (which John ends up confirming for me in his book) ...with Casteel, I'm sure we might had not gotten mentioned about practicegate from Scott Templeton ..eh, I mean Michael Rosenberg (Wire fans will get the joke).
...is drawn from the lyrics to The Buckeye Battle Cry:
Buckeye Battle Cry
In Old Ohio there's a team,
That's known throughout the land;
Eleven warriors, brave and bold,
Whose fame will ever stand,
And when the ball goes over,
Our cheers will reach the sky,
Ohio Field will hear again
The Buckeye Battle Cry.
Drive! Drive on down the field,
Men of scarlet and gray;
Don't let them through that line,
We have to win this game today,
Come on, Ohio! Smash through to victory
We cheer you as you go;
Our honor defend
So, we'll fight to the end
The song has given rise to the titles of several blogs; BBC, 11W, Our Honor Defend, etc.
He was the captain of the ship, and not the free press, Michigan Man (whoever the f that is), and sure as hell not Gerg. He failed so please stop!
Give it a rest. RR is gone, eventually forgotten.