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Who owns the state? Who represents the state? A historical look at the Michigan roster, 1960-2009

By physics guy — October 2nd, 2009 at 5:16 PM — 7 comments

We’ve heard a lot on this topic since MD has taken up residence in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />East Lansing and begun to “ratchet up” MSU’s in-state recruiting effort. MD seems to have landed a few recruits at MSU who may have not even considered the school in previous years.  This has led many Spartan fans to declare that MSU now “owns” the state of Michigan in terms of getting the best and most home-state athletes, and conversely Michigan has given up on recruiting Michigan and having in-state players on the roster.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Question: is such rhetoric consistent with the facts?  What does the record actually show?  I thought it would be interesting to go back over the last 50 years and analyze the makeup of the UM football roster. I decided to go back that far because it would give us a good idea of what things were like in the “pre-Bo” days of Bump Elliot.   Fortunately this task is facilitated by the excellent football roster database available on the UM Bentley Historical Library website.  Here you can find rosters for every Michigan team (and I mean every team, dating back to 1879), and where the players went to high school.  Unfortunately, this data includes all players, including walk-ons, and thus doesn’t reflect only recruited players.  However, I thought it still might be instructive to look at how the makeup of the team has changed over the last half-century, and see if there is any evidence of state of Michigan representation falling off in recent years.

Before we begin the analysis, we need to recognize that the size of football rosters has changed over the years, generally becoming smaller as scholarship limitations were imposed.  For instance, Bump Elliot’s 1960 squad had 144 players; Rich Rod’s 2008 squad has 96.  In order to account for this difference, I’ve focused on not the total number of in-state players on the roster, but also what fraction is from the state. 

Results (chart-based!).  I’ve broken down the results into three “eras,” the Bump Elliot Era (1960-68*), the Schembecler Era (1969-2007, including the regimes of Moeller and Carr), and the Rodriguez Era (2008-2009).

Elliot Era:

Year

Total

%Mich

1960

145

52

1961

140

55

1962

128

54

1963

137

54

1964

144

55

1965

138

53

1966

144

53

1968

144

51

 

Schembecler Era:

Year

Total

%Mich

1969

113

48

1970

130

49

1971

126

41

1972

128

45

1973

119

37

1974

118

25

1975

115

34

1976

118

45

1977

116

47

1978

111

48

1979

112

42

1980

113

35

1981

114

33

1982

112

36

1983

113

36

1984

114

35

1985

121

36

1986

117

39

1987

119

40

1988

122

30

1989

111

32

1990

117

33

1991

107

35

1992

103

35

1993

99

33

1994

99

37

1995

105

43

1996

105

43

1997

105

41

1998

108

37

1999

111

37

2000

107

33

2001

110

31

2002

111

38

2003

108

44

2004

110

43

2005

111

43

2006

118

42

2007

116

46

 

Rodriguez Era:

Year

Total

%Mich

2008

96

50

2009

122

47

 

Here we see some interesting things.  First there are two large drops in total roster count (column two in these tables): one in 1969, Bo’s first year, and a second in 2008, Rich’s first year.  Obviously this is the well-documented result of attrition with the new regimes.   Bo’s 1969 roster was 113, compared to Bump’s last roster of 144.  Similarly, Rich’s first roster was 96, compared to Carr’s last of 116.  We also see a more gradual decline in the early 1990’s.  This was in response to the imposition of the 85-scholarship limit in 1994.  Overall, it’s pretty clear that Bump’s typical roster was about 140, Bo’s about 120, Carr’s about 110.  Interestingly, in spite of the “small” number of players on Rich’s first team (96), the roster this year is up to 122, equivalent to the biggest roster (122 in 1998) of the entire Bo-Moeller-Carr time span.  Perhaps this reflects Rich’s emphasis on a robust walk-on program?

Now let’s look at column three, the situation regarding Michigan-bred players.  Once again, we have some very interesting results.   Bump had a very steady record of having about 55 % of his players from the state of Michigan.  Things clearly changed dramatically when Bo arrived.  By 1974, only about one-quarter of the roster were Michiganders.  Throughout the Bo-Moeller-Carr years on the average only about 1/3 of the players were from the state of Michigan (the time period of 1976-1978 was a bit anomalous, and I think this is evidence of what was one very strong group of state of Michigan recruits that entered in ’76).  Since about 2001, however, the fraction of state of Michigan players has been rising.  Interestingly, last year’s roster, for Rich’s first year, had the highest fraction of state of Michigan recruits since the pre-Bo years, and this year’s roster has 47% Michigan-bred players.  I think that pretty much blows a big hole in the entire “RR has turned his back on the state” argument.

Now how does this compare to Sparty?  Unfortunately, I could not find database information on historical MSU football rosters.  My suspicion is that they exist only in paper form, archived away in some barn alongside records of state milk production quotas and soy bean yields.  There is roster data for the years 2004 and 2006-2009 on the MSU athletic website (don’t go there!), but that’s the best we can do:

MSU:

Year

Total

%Mich

2004

105

47

2006

106

44

2007

105

43

2008

106

52

2009

115

52


The MSU roster for these years averages about 105  or so players, and the fraction of Michigan-bred players varies in the range 46-52%.

 So who represents the state?  I see almost no difference in the representation of state of Michigan players on the rosters of UM and MSU over the last 5 years.  In fact, state representation on the Michigan roster in the Rich Rod era (nascent as it is) is at historically high levels.  If anything, state of Michigan representation on UM’s roster reached its apogee in the early seventies, when Bo was hailed for developing a national program, not disdained for “turning his back on the state.” On the basis of these data, the argument of UM “turning its back on the state” in recent years must be refuted. 

Who owns the state?  Alas, from these data we can’t tell, because that question involves determining who has the highest quality players from the state of Michigan (e.g., based on recruiting rankings).  One piece of evidence: the somewhat wild variation in state representation on the Michigan roster(varying from 25% to 50%) suggests that when higher quality state players were available, Michigan took them.

I’m sure that there’s a lot more that can be discussed and determined from these data and I hope this encourages more discussion. Sorry for any formatting issues here.  I am a bit of an old dog learning new tricks.

*I excluded data for the 1967 roster.  It was inconsistent all other rosters in the Bump Elliot era, and I think that perhaps the Bentley database in incomplete for this year.  Plus leaving it out helps support my argument.

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October 2nd, 2009 at 5:20 PM | I apologize (Score:1)
physics guy
physics guy's picture
Joined: 09/25/2009
MGoPoints: 28

I apologize for the appearance of a couple of html tags (or whatever they are) in the document. I don't know how to excise them. I would appreciate any advice here.

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October 2nd, 2009 at 5:30 PM | Although not perfect, if you (Score:1)
rdlwolverine
Joined: 09/28/2008
MGoPoints: 268

Although not perfect, if you were to filter the rosters each year for lettermen only, you would get rid of many of the walk-ons and get a more meaningful picture in my mind.

As for Michigan State, I am not aware of a database, but if you look in their Media Guides (downloadable online) for the all-time Sparty lettermen list it gives hometowns. You could then make an apples-to-apples comparison. It would take a lot of manual legwork for the MSU piece.

My sense has been that Michigan has traditionally recruited more outside the state than MSU, except for MSU recruiting more southern African-Americans in the 50s and early 60s.

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October 2nd, 2009 at 7:56 PM | Thanks for confirming what I (Score:1)
tomhagan
tomhagan's picture
Joined: 08/30/2008
MGoPoints: 105

Thanks for confirming what I already knew and have mentioned before...but you put actual historical numbers to it....Michigan is a national recruiting team...the fact that Sparty is too, shows there is a dearth of HS talent in the state historically...

btw, most walkons would come from in-state which would further push the number of scholarship athlete % down...

Strictly business...Not personal.

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October 2nd, 2009 at 8:06 PM | this one line (Score:1)
sandiego
Joined: 12/15/2008
MGoPoints: -572

I'd give you a plus if I knew how for just this one line:

"My suspicion is that they exist only in paper form, archived away in some barn alongside records of state milk production quotas and soy bean yields"

Drink a pint of tequila, 12 beers and start one post about Justin Boren in bad taste and end up with - 590 points.

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October 3rd, 2009 at 6:45 AM | The fraudulent Spartoon argument (Score:1)
Don
Don's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 19222

MSU fans have been loudly beating their collective chestal regions 24/7 over the past year (aided and abetted by sports "journalists") over how the Spartoons are dominating in-state recruiting. This argument is always coupled with a criticism of UM for its out-of-state recruiting, with the implicit point that getting players from states other than Michigan is a bad thing that the Sparties would never stoop to.

Here are some notable names from MSU football history, and where they hailed from:

Bubba Smith - Texas
Tony Banks - California
Javon Ringer - Ohio
Ike Reese - North Carolina
Tony Mandarich - Ontario
Plaxico Burress - Virginia
Gene Washington - Texas
Billy Joe Dupree - Lousiana
Lorenzo White - Florida
Mark Ingram - Illinois
Sedrick Irvin - Florida
Flozell Adams - Illinois
Morton Anderson - Denmark
Jehuu Caulcrick - New York
Deandra Cobb - Nevada
Julian Peterson - Maryland
Jonal St. Dic - New Jersey
Brian Hoyer - Ohio


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October 3rd, 2009 at 11:15 AM | Numbers can be misleading (Score:1)
bluebyyou
Joined: 09/07/2009
MGoPoints: 2683

Good job.

What the analysis lacks and, obviously would be impossible to determine until about the last decade, is the quality of the recruit. Someone mentioned the number of lettermen as a parameter. That metric would not provide the relative recruiting strength of UM and MSU. The average number of stars as determined by Rivals or Scout would indicate what school has "star appeal", no pun intended.

I have started doubting, with greater frequency, how predictive recruiting really is to a team's success. Look at Iowa or Wisc as two programs with relatively average recruiting, yet often do fairly well fielding a team.

Go Blue!

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October 4th, 2009 at 10:19 PM | I did a comparison of All-Americans (Score:1)
rdlwolverine
Joined: 09/28/2008
MGoPoints: 268

at UM and MSU from 1960 through 2008 and their home states. Michigan had 77 All-Americans in that timeframe, with 25 from Michigan, 17 from Ohio and 35 from 13 of the remaining states with Florida (6) and Illinois (5) next highest. MSU had 37 AAs in that time frame with 15 from Michigan, 7 from Ohio and 15 from 10 other states (and Ontario). Of those not from Ohio or Michigan, 11 of MSU's 15 were from South of the Mason-Dixon line, while 13 of Michigan's 35 were from South of the M-D line. (I am counting Nevada and California as "north" of the M-D line although latitudinally they are, culturally they are not. Similarly, I am counting all of Indiana, Illinois and Kansas as north.

On a percentage basis, 32% of UM's AAs were from Michigan compared to 41% for MSU; 22% of UMs from Ohio, compared to 19% for MSU; 17% of UM's from the South, compared to 30% for MSU; and UM had 39% from the remaining states, compared to 11% for MSU. In raw numbers, Michigan had more in each of the 4 categories. If I had included the 1950s, MSU would have closed the overall gap considerably, with almost all of their AAs in that decade hailing from Michigan.

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