Home
we had subs it was crazy

Primary links

  • About
    • $upport (lol)
    • Ethics
    • FAQ
    • Privacy Policy
  • Contact
  • MGoStore
  • MGoBoard
    • MGoBoard FAQ
    • Ticket spreadsheet
    • Michigan bar locator
    • Moderator Action Sticky
  • Useful Stuff
    • 2014 Recruiting Board, Offense
    • Depth Chart By Class
    • Unofficial Two Deep
    • Diaries, Windows Live Writer, And You
    • Michigan Future Schedules
    • User-Curated HOF
    • Where To Eat In Ann Arbor
Home Diaries The Mathlete's blog

Navigation

  • Forums
  • Recent posts

User login

  • Create new account
  • Request new password

MGoElsewhere

  • @MGoBlog (Brian)
  • @aceanbender
  • @TomVH (Tom)
  • RSS Feed
  • iPhone App
  • Facebook profile
  • MGoKindle Store
  • mgo.licio.us
  • Brian @ TSB [Archive]
  • Brian @ AOL [Archive]
  • Sour Salty Bitter Sweet

Michigan Blogs

  • Big House Blog
  • Burgeoning Wolverine Star
  • Genuinely Sarcastic
  • Go Blue Michigan Wolverine
  • Holdin' The Rope
  • MGoFootball
  • MVictors
  • Maize 'n' Blue Nation
  • Maize 'n' Brew
  • Maize And Go Blue
  • Michigan Hockey Net
  • The Blog That Yost Built
  • The Hoover Street Rag
  • The M Block
  • The M Zone
  • The Wolverine Blog
  • Touch The Banner
  • UMGoBlog
  • UMHoops
  • UMTailgate
  • Wolverine Liberation Army

M On The Net

  • mgovideo
  • MGoBlue.com
  • Mike DeSimone
  • Recruiting Planet
  • The Wolverine
  • Go Blue Wolverine
  • Winged Helmet
  • UMGoBlue.com
  • MaizeRage.org
  • Puckhead
  • The M Den
  • True Blue Fan Forum

Big Ten Blogs

  • Illinois
    • A Lion Eye
    • Hail To The Orange
    • Illinois Baseball Report
    • Illinois Loyalty
  • Indiana
    • Inside The Hall
    • The Crimson Quarry
  • Iowa
    • Black Heart, Gold Pants
    • Fight For Iowa
  • Michigan State
    • The Only Colors
  • Minnesota
    • GopherHole.com
    • The Daily Gopher
    • I'm In Love With A Fringe Bowl Team
    • TNABACG
  • Nebraska
    • Big Red Network
    • Corn Nation
    • Husker Mike's Blasphemy
    • Husker Gameday
  • Northwestern
    • Sippin' On Purple
    • Lake The Posts
  • Notre Dame
    • The House Rock Built
    • One Foot Down
  • Ohio State
    • Eleven Warriors
    • Buckeye Commentary
    • Men of the Scarlet and Gray
    • Our Honor Defend
    • The Buckeye Nine
  • Penn State
    • Slow States
    • Black Shoe Diaries
    • Happy Valley Hardball
    • Penn State Clips
    • Linebacker U
    • Nittany White Out
  • Purdue
    • Boiled Sports
    • Hammer and Rails
  • Wisconsin
    • Bruce Ciskie

Links of Note

  • Baseball
    • Big Ten Hardball
    • College Baseball Today
    • The Baseball Zealot
    • The College Baseball Blog
  • Basketball
    • Ken Pomeroy
    • Basketball Prospectus
    • Midmajority
  • College Hockey
    • Chris Heisenberg
    • College Hockey Stats
    • Inside College Hockey
    • Michigan College Hockey
    • Hockey's Future
    • Sioux Sports
    • USCHO
    • Western College Hockey
    • CCHA
      • LSSU Hockey
      • Bronco Hockey Blog
  • Football
    • Smart Football
    • Every Day Should Be Saturday
    • Doctor Saturday
    • CFB Stats
    • Harold Stassen
    • NCAA D-I Stats Page
    • The Wizard Of Odds
  • General
    • Sports Central
  • Local Interest
    • The Ann Arbor Chronicle
    • Arborwiki
    • Arbor Update
    • Teeter Talk
    • Vacuum
  • Teams Of The D
    • Lions
      • Pride of Detroit
      • Fire Millen
    • Pistons
      • Detroit Bad Boys
      • Need4Sheed
    • Tigers
      • Roar Of The Tigers
      • The Detroit Tigers Weblog
      • The Daily Fungo
    • Red Wings
      • On The Wings
      • Behind The Jersey
      • Winging It In Motown
    • Michigan Sports Forum

Get Yer Tickets

Football Display Case

NFL Watches

Follow your favorite team with localtv-satellite.com: Click Here.

Site Search

Diaries

  • New
  • Popular
  • Hot
  • On Endowment, Financial Aid, and Perceived Prestige
    maizeonblueaction - 7 hours ago
  • Who is Al Borges? (Part III - HOKE IS A STRATEGY)
    Ron Utah - 12 hours ago
  • The Blockhams in "SPARTYCAN'T"
    Six Zero - 4 days ago
  • Who is Al Borges? (Part I)
    Ron Utah - 4 days ago
  • Yet Another Da'Shawn Hand post
    canzior - 5 days ago
  •  
  • 1 of 5
  • ››
more
  • Yet Another Da'Shawn Hand post
    canzior - 2,845 views
  • Who is Al Borges? (Part II - THE MISTAKE)
    Ron Utah - 1,295 views
  • Devin and the White Rainbow
    MCalibur - 1,001 views
  • Who is Al Borges? (Part I)
    Ron Utah - 926 views
  • The Blockhams in "SPARTYCAN'T"
    Six Zero - 913 views
  •  
  • 1 of 2
  • ››
more
  • This Day In History: June 10, 1944 - Alumnus Ed Tipper
    wildbackdunesman - 10 comments
  • Who is Al Borges? (Part I)
    Ron Utah - 10 comments
  • Who is Al Borges? (Part III - HOKE IS A STRATEGY)
    Ron Utah - 6 comments
  • On Endowment, Financial Aid, and Perceived Prestige
    maizeonblueaction - 6 comments
  • The Blockhams in "SPARTYCAN'T"
    Six Zero - 5 comments
  • ‹‹
  • 2 of 2
  •  
more

MGoBoard

  • New
  • Recent
  • Hot
  • ESPN Names Webber Top Draft Pick from B10 Since '89
    21 replies
  • MSU doesn't know who they're recruiting
    32 replies
  • (Mostly) OT: Michelle Chamuel of UM can win The Voice tonight (with votes)
    20 replies
  • Urban Meyer and Charlie Strong's "Core Values"
    91 replies
  • Burke & Hardway Jr Feature on BTN
    8 replies
  • Pretty OT: Golf Wedge Customization
    18 replies
  • ESPN Predicts Hand to M
    51 replies
  • OT: MCAT prep advice
    53 replies
  • OT: NCAA 14 Demo out tomorrow
    27 replies
  • High Noon with Rich Rodriguez and the Arizona Football Staff
    111 replies
  • ESPN Path to the Draft: No. 8 Michigan (Edit: Hoops)
    7 replies
  • B1G: Lunt to Illinois
    14 replies
  • Des Photobomb
    41 replies
  • Great Sam Webb Article on Hand
    43 replies
  • Jaguars "Rookie 101" Vid w/ Denard Robinson
    11 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 7
  • ››
  • Urban Meyer and Charlie Strong's "Core Values"
    91 replies
  • Des Photobomb
    41 replies
  • High Noon with Rich Rodriguez and the Arizona Football Staff
    111 replies
  • MSU doesn't know who they're recruiting
    32 replies
  • (Mostly) OT: Michelle Chamuel of UM can win The Voice tonight (with votes)
    20 replies
  • ESPN Names Webber Top Draft Pick from B10 Since '89
    21 replies
  • OT: MCAT prep advice
    53 replies
  • ESPN Predicts Hand to M
    51 replies
  • SMSB Recap "Free"
    36 replies
  • Pretty OT: Golf Wedge Customization
    18 replies
  • B1G: Lunt to Illinois
    14 replies
  • Burke & Hardway Jr Feature on BTN
    8 replies
  • Great Sam Webb Article on Hand
    43 replies
  • OT: NCAA 14 Demo out tomorrow
    27 replies
  • OT: Cool Story Bro!
    96 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 7
  • ››
  • Da'shawn Hand's New Top Three
    209 replies
  • Rivals Mike says "today I think Michigan would be choice for Da'Shawn Hand" EDIT: Also Sandwiches
    191 replies
  • OT'ish: Michigan or Harvard?
    176 replies
  • Abrupt Shift in Crystal Ball projections for Hand (To Bama)
    149 replies
  • OT: Sony trolled Microsoft HARD last night(video)
    147 replies
  • Coolest/favorite Michigan thing you own?
    139 replies
  • OT: Man Of Steel. Wow
    129 replies
  • OT: City of Detroit Epic Comeback? (Business Insider)
    125 replies
  • ND to play ASU in football series
    112 replies
  • High Noon with Rich Rodriguez and the Arizona Football Staff
    111 replies
  • OT: Big storm coming
    103 replies
  • OT-4* recruit (non Michigan) posting really dumb things
    101 replies
  • OT: USA Vs. Panama World Cup Qualifier (10 PM EST)
    101 replies
  • OT: Tigers/afternoon baseball Open Thread
    97 replies
  • John U. Bacon on the GA Student Section
    97 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 7
  • ››

mgo.licio.us

  • NBA draft rumors: Pistons like Cody Zeller, but not Trey Burke - Detroit Bad Boys

    just what the Pistons need: a third string center. Joe Dumars was replaced by a mean ol' alien a few years back you guys.

    3 comments
  • New college grads: Don’t sell your time for a living

    this would be a close approximation of hypothetical graduation speech

    9 comments
  • College World Series Misspells "College" On Dugout

    no you guys they're just super pumped about COLLLLLLLLLLLLEGE

    0 comments
  • Michigan no longer looking for a transfer quarterback, Brady Hoke says

    not a surprise

    0 comments
  • Babcock: 'Glendening will play at the next level, for sure''

    premature congrats. One thing we can be sure of: he'll take fewer asinine penalties than Abdelkader

    1 comments
  • Spurrier may have to come up with a new UT spelling joke.

    Thanks to ugly transitions between Fulmer/Kiffin/Dooley/Davis, Tennessee is on the edge of APR penalties for football.

    1 comments
  • Report: NCAA ditching domes prior to Final Four

    i approve of this message

    0 comments
  • San Antonio Spurs may be doing something right by drafting international athletes

    strong indictment of AAU right heah

    0 comments
  • NBA draft 2013 Toss Up: Better PG prospect, Trey Burke or Michael Carter-Williams

    Glockner sides with justice

    0 comments
  • Brady Hoke-coached fantasy camp raises $140K for prostate cancer research

    a good cause, and a good time

    0 comments
  • Michigan men's basketball receives high academic honor with APR Public Recognition Award

    good job gents

    0 comments
  • Tournament trash talk helped Mitch McGary complete massive turnaround, Bacari Alexander says

    "Jeff Withey shouldn't have called him Peter Dinklage, is all I'm saying."

    1 comments
  • ESPN drops Trey Burke five spots in mock draft, says Orlando is questioning his worth at No. 2

    this would be bad if it wasn't LIES

    4 comments
  • How he Drew it up

    Drew Henson's career, or not quite career, or whatever.

    0 comments
  • 2016 big man Caleb Swanigan recaps Michigan trip

    “I’m more of a back-to-the-basket type of big man that rebounds a lot,” Swanigan said on Wednesday, describing his game. “I have a Zach Randolph type of game — that’s who I base my game off of. Being physical and playing with both hands on the rim.”

    0 comments
  •  
  • 1 of 2
  • ››
more

What’s a 5 Star Really Worth: Predicting Future Team Success Off of Recruiting Rankings

By The Mathlete — January 17th, 2012 at 12:10 PM — 28 comments
Filed under:
  • football
  • mid-week metrics

We all know it matters. Otherwise there wouldn’t be four major recruiting sites, countless team-specific recruiting blogs and grown men tweeting and facebooking 17 year old high school males, and breathlessly refreshing message boards for the next 14 days.

The question I want to answer is how much does it matter, and where do the numbers play out the most? How much of team success can be predicted based on recruiting profile of the present roster (not the JUCO-stuffed 38 member SEC class that the majority never shows)? Do recruiting services do a better job of predicting offense or defense? Which is more likely to win you conference and national championships, the 5 star running back or the 5 star linebacker?

Methodology

I have created a complimentary recruiting database that links into my PBP database. For a source I picked Rivals because I wanted to keep it relatively straightforward and they have a full 10-year history online. I only looked at the players who were ranked at their position. Each year that is about 1,000 players and virtually every signee from a major program. Anyone not ranked for their position was omitted. I only have comprehensive rosters for all teams for the last three years, so for that time period I did my best to link the two DBs together. I am sure there are a few that I am missing but I think I got all the Dee Harts linked up with Demetrius Harts and all the other weird things that happen to a recruit's name between recruitment and the official roster.

Each recruit is given an initial value. The value is roughly

[Percentile within position] * [# of stars] ^ 2

So a 5 star #1 at his position recruit is worth about 25 points and a 50th percentile 3 star would be worth 4.5 pts. The initial value is then adjusted based on how long the player has been in the program.

The recruits are then matched up with the final rosters. Players are only counted if they are still on the roster. So any players that have transferred, left school or gone to the NFL are excluded from the totals. The only major gap is transfers. For ones I knew of right away like Cam Newton or Ryan Mallet, they only count at their final school. Most other transfers will only show up at the original school for their time there and then disappear from the grid. Players are then given a “bonus” multiplier based on their experience. Players' initial values are doubled from their first year to their second year and tripled for every year after that.

That’s a lot fewer words than hours put in but in a nutshell, that’s the background for what I will show you below. The magnitude of the points isn’t relevant, all you need to know is the more points the better.

Answer Your Question Already

When you start talking to yourself within an article on mgoblog, there is only one appropriate response, CHART

image

Lot’s of variation within the numbers but definitely a strong correlation between recruiting points and team PAN [ed: points above normal, the Mathlete's SOS- and situation-adjusted stat]. For all the charts I put up the data will be BCS schools from 2009-2011. Recruits prior to 2009 will be included, but only the actual seasons of play from 2009 on.

There have been some really good seasons from teams with <1,000 pts like Oklahoma St this past season (896). There have also been some mediocre season from teams with 3,000+ points like Texas in 2010 (3,082 pts). But all in all more recruits is better, but we already knew that. So let’s dig a little deeper and see if recruiting rankings mean more for offense or defense and if any position groups are better indicators than others.

Who To Trust, Offense or Defense

Moving to specifics can become a bit more of a challenge. To ease that, I counted every recruit in the position they play, not the position that they are recruited for. They keep the same point total they would at the original position, it just counts in a different bucket. Whether its a WR moving to DB or an ATH finding a home, the points are set based on the initial group ranking, but they are allocated based on the roster position. On to the offense.

image

The correlation is still there, but it is much weaker for the offense as opposed to the team as a whole. In fact, most of the best offensive seasons were accomplished with relatively average recruiting talent. The ultimate loaded team, 2009 USC, only managed a 3.3 on offense with 10% pts more than any other team I have measured. Teams like the latest incarnations of Michigan and Oregon were able to achieve double digit offensive PAN without elite offensive recruiting classes.

image

Defensive recruiting is much more correlated with defensive success than offensive. The slope is nearly double and the R-Squared is much greater as well. There are still exceptions like 2009 Florida St who was almost –10 PAN despite over 1,000 defensive recruiting points. There is still success on the lower range but overall there are fewer failures at the top and less success at the bottom of defensive recruiting rankings.

Based on this data, system, player development and finding diamonds in the rough are more prevalent on offense than defense. On defense there is some variation but for the most part you are who you recruit. Unless you hire Greg Robinson and even your Never Forget roster still has 853 points to “earn” a –7 on the season.

The Best Position To Be In

Since the defense as a whole proved to be the most predictive, let’s look there first.

image

image

image

Being a good defense is all about your weakest link and based on that philosophy, you shouldn’t be surprised to see all positions play out relatively equal. None of the position groups is significantly better or worse than another at predicting defensive success.

image

image

image

image

Offense is where it really gets muddled. O-Line, tight ends and receivers all are moderate correlations between recruiting and offensive success and running backs (as I’ve stated elsewhere) are the most overrated position in football. Quarterback is far and away the highest correlation to offensive success of any position. Even with that QB, is still below all of the defensive positions when it comes to future success on that side of the ball.

Conference Variation

How recruiting matches up with success varies greatly by conference. Rather than throw up six more charts, I just put the R^2 values in a table:

Conf R^2
ACC 0.50
Big East 0.07
Big Ten 0.33
Big 12 0.22
PAC 12 0.06
SEC 0.43

Recruiting has virtually no correlation to success over the last three years in the Big East and the PAC 12 but for the other four conferences it's anywhere from a little (Big 12, land of Red River and everyone else) to a lot (the ACC and the SEC).

The Big Ten is in the middle; Ohio St has dominated at the top of both recruiting and success but Michigan’s underachievement and Wisconsin and Nebraska having strong seasons without top tier recruiting classes have thrown in enough variance to disrupt the correlation.

Your 5 Star Takeaway

Recruiting rankings have a huge correlation to future team success, especially on defense. Great teams can come from average talent, but more talent typically means more success. On defense it is virtually impossible to build an elite defense without elite recruits, and its equally true across all defensive positions. On offense dreams of 5 star skill position players are fun, but coaching, player development, system and luck play a much bigger role in future success than they do on defense. With top 20 and higher recruits at nearly every position on defense, Michigan is poised for a very strong future if they can keep the talent around.

  • The Mathlete's blog
  • Login or register to post comments

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
January 17th, 2012 at 10:54 AM | Awesome info, thank you! (Score:1)
sheepdog
sheepdog's picture
Joined: 06/15/2011
MGoPoints: 811

Does TRUE GRIT factor in to elite defenses?  If so, Michigan would be off the charts.

Kovacs baby!

Username and password authentication is dead.  Touchless fingerprint biometric authentication for your mobile devices is here.

Help our Indiegogo campaign!

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 12:50 PM | where 5*’s go to die (Score:1)
markinmsp
markinmsp's picture
Joined: 10/18/2011
MGoPoints: 521

Fantastic info. Yes we do still seem to instill “Heart” along with the “Blue” inside.

Just wonder how ND falls in all this. Domers seem to get these awesome classes every year, loaded with 5* and just haven’t been able to do anything significant with them.

Not that I want them to, mind you. Just wonder if the data supported the “…where 5*’s go to die” hypothesis.  8)

                                          

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 11:00 AM | Quarterbacks (Score:2 Normal)
oakapple
Joined: 02/06/2009
MGoPoints: 1319

One point not extensively discussed, is that quarterbacks have the highest correlation between recruiting ranking and collegiate success.

A few factors may contribute to this:

1) The QB will be filmed on every snap he plays, so it is a lot easier for scouts to evaluate QBs based on their total body of work.

2) QBs have a lot of measurables, because they generate more stats than any other position.

3) There are a lot of camps that focus on QB play specifically, so there are a lot of opportunities for them to be evaluated.

At the other end, you would expect offensive linemen to be tough to evaluate, because their position generates the fewest stats (as in: none).

But the rather weak correlation with wide receivers and running backs surprises me, and it's hard for me to put my finger on the reasons for it.

Marc Shepherd
New York, NY

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 12:18 PM | It was mentioned, but QB is the fourth strongest correlation. (Score:1)
justingoblue
justingoblue's picture
Joined: 11/16/2010
MGoPoints: 11027

Quarterback is far and away the highest correlation to offensive success of any position. Even with that QB, is still below all of the defensive positions when it comes to future success on that side of the ball.

"We bring you to Michigan to take care of Michigan; your job is to protect that block M."
-Carol Hutchins

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 4:15 PM | I'm confused. (Score:2)
RedandGuilty
RedandGuilty's picture
Joined: 02/04/2010
MGoPoints: 2260

QB is at 0.03x and the D positions are at 0.01x.

  • Login or register to post comments
January 18th, 2012 at 1:14 AM | Did you read/ponder any of this? (Score:1)
led_hassen
Joined: 01/18/2010
MGoPoints: 4

It's not the highest correlation, as stated in the post. Furthermore...

1) Me thinks every player is filmed on every play. I don't think high school QB's receive the same individual camera attention afforded to elite NFL QB's (see; Brady, Tom (not to say that even TB has a camera situated only on him every snap (He doesn't.))).

2) QB "generated" stats are subject to more externalities than any other position, exposing them to the (dis)advantage of dramatic skewing (a poor vs. exceptional OL; having an elite receiver; particular coaching scheme, although every position is subject to this to a degree). Perhaps "QB logged stats" would be more accurate.

3) There are some stats available, though not many, but 2) indicates that individual stats may be (often are) a poor indicator of success. Fact of the matter, there are a bunch of guys with a bunch of specific knowledge who are paid a bunch of money to spend a bunch of time looking at a bunch of film and who have, thankfully, made it unnecessary for you to place your finger anywhere near reason.

So there..

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 11:01 AM | Excellent (Score:2)
Go Blue from OH
Go Blue from OH's picture
Joined: 10/04/2010
MGoPoints: 177

As usual, this is both informative and well done. A well thought out argument is most persuasive when there are facts to back it up...you sir have given me that. Mad props. 

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 11:33 AM | A couple of questions... (Score:2 Normal)
kmedved
Joined: 11/09/2009
MGoPoints: 160

And I know it's not fair to ask for more (free) content, but some other avenues for inquiry:

1. I know you've been collecting that coaching database. It seems like that should line up nicely with a look at which coaches most systematically under/overperform their recruiting rankings?

2. Adding a variable for offensive scheme would also be interesting. Yeah it's a bitch with 120 teams, but I think again you could open up a google docs spreadsheet and MGoBlog members would be happy to contribute data when they knew it. It would be very interesting to see if offensive recruiting ranking match up much better with pro style systems than they do with spread sets. 

More generally, and this is something that could be gleaned from the data with no manual coding needed: do teams with higher pass/run ratios have lower correlations than vice versa? How about teams where the QB makes up a higher percentage of team rushing yards? Etc...

3. This isn't even an inquiry, but could we maybe see a list of the top 10 over and underperforming units in your study? You mention the Michigan/Oregon offenses, but I'd be curious to see the whole list.

Thanks.

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 4:39 PM | Yeah #3 (Score:1)
Asgardian
Joined: 12/08/2010
MGoPoints: 588

This data is all great, but such a teaser.

I can't look at those scatters without going,

A. "hmm I wonder where Michigan/OSU/ND/Sparty's dots are in there?"

B. "hmm I wonder who that outlier is?"

"I have a dream that someday Michigan will not have freshmen on the field. That day is 2013 at the earliest." - Brian, Defense vs MSU UFR 2011

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 12:16 PM | i posbang you for excessive (Score:1)
ish
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 7698

i posbang you for excessive awesomeness. 

i wonder if the low correlation btwn ranking and offensive output has to do with clever schemes.  USC was tied up in a fairly conservative scheme.  the who point of the spread was to shrink the advantage of a talent spread.  in that vain, i agree with kmedved's second question - i bet spreads get the most use of their talent.

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 12:18 PM | Mathlete, it seems you get (Score:4 Normal)
unWavering
unWavering's picture
Joined: 01/13/2011
MGoPoints: 1767

Mathlete, it seems you get more done with your free time than I do when I'm actually at work. 

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 12:32 PM | Excellent Analysis (Score:2)
blueloosh
blueloosh's picture
Joined: 10/26/2008
MGoPoints: 800

Brilliant work.

The spin on a study like this is always "see, stars do matter."  As though in answer to the commonly-held belief that stars mean nothing.  I think the opposite is true.  Everyone hyperventilates over stars (to the point of begging analysts to add a star to a player you're already going to get (however good he is), just so you can see him on a web page with 4 or 5 stars next to his name and feel even better about things).  And so I think the more interesting thing to note is the incredible variance in your charts -- notwithstanding the strong overall trend, which certainly must be acknowledged.  As you say, coaching and player development matter a lot, and you are by no means doomed by mediocre talent (esp. on offense).

The stronger correlation on defense is very interesting and very persuasively presented.  Again, great work.

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 1:53 PM | Well, (Score:1)
wolverine1987
wolverine1987's picture
Joined: 07/07/2008
MGoPoints: 2935

many people do (ignorantly) proclaim "stars don't matter." So more data is better at refuting that, and this is another in several studies that prove that yes, it is worthwhile to be happy that your favorite team got a four star guy, variance notwithstanding. I do agree that people go way too far the other way, and your example is one way that they do. But just like with the stock market and other fields, the trend is what matters, not the outliers.

"Everyone gets dumped Gabe. Let me give you some advice: a little coverup on your Adams Apple will make it appear smaller. Which will make you appear less like a transvestite." 

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 12:32 PM | You rule! (Score:1)
Roachgoblue
Joined: 08/29/2011
MGoPoints: 1477

Great information and an amazing post!

[Caved troll is caved. Sorry, Mobile app users.]

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 12:33 PM | Pure awesomeness (Score:1)
Dudeski
Joined: 01/23/2011
MGoPoints: 84

This is pure awesomeness. Thanks so much!

 

One question: why don't you put more than one of these in a multivariate regression model? Great offensive recruiting classes are almost certain to go along with great defensive classes, so the bivariate plots you're giving us are almost certain to be textbook illustrations of omitted variable bias. Even if the correlation is reasonably strong between defensive stars and success, the regression coefficient on defense recruiting probably overstates the effect. 

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 12:37 PM | If you note the y-axis' the (Score:3 Normal)
The Mathlete
Joined: 10/01/2008
MGoPoints: 2357

If you note the y-axis' the only time recruiting is compared against team success is on the overall team recruiting totals. Offense, defense and position recruiting are only compared against offense or defense success. I agree with your point that they are tied, but I am not comparing OL recruiting to team success, just offensive.

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 12:42 PM | OK, you're regressing on (Score:1)
Dudeski
Joined: 01/23/2011
MGoPoints: 84

[triple post!]

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 12:42 PM | OK, you're regressing on (Score:1)
Dudeski
Joined: 01/23/2011
MGoPoints: 84

[triple post + mathlete beat me to the correction!]

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 12:41 PM | OK, you're regressing on (Score:1)
Dudeski
Joined: 01/23/2011
MGoPoints: 84

OK, you're regressing on defensive and offensive PAN, not total team. Ignore my previous comment. 

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 12:49 PM | This is interesting . . . and (Score:4 Normal)
Magnus
Magnus's picture
Joined: 07/17/2008
MGoPoints: 27785

This is interesting . . . and confirms my belief that, as a coach, I need to get my best athletes on the field to play defense.  Athletes make plays on defense.  Sometimes people get too caught up in talking about positions.  If a kid is one of the 11 best athletes on the team, he needs to find a position on defense (unless he's the QB...in which case I might need to protect his health a little bit).

As you seem to indicate, offense is a little bit more about system and finding diamonds in the rough.  There are plenty of good offensive players who aren't very big or very fast, especially receivers and running backs.  But the good defensive players are usually either big or fast...and it helps if they've got a good head on their shoulders.

Anyway...good work, mathlete.

Twitter - Recruiting Update: June 17

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 12:56 PM | Did we win? (Score:2)
ReadYourGuard
ReadYourGuard's picture
Joined: 08/21/2008
MGoPoints: 6221

Did we win?

"the Spirit of Michigan...is based on a deathless loyalty to Michigan and all her ways....and a conviction that nowhere is there a better university, in any way, than this Michigan of ours" - Fielding Yost
  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 1:13 PM | Mathlete: by far your most important work yet (Score:2)
Jivas
Jivas's picture
Joined: 07/06/2008
MGoPoints: 2379

The result that high school recruiting rankings explain 26% of the variation in ability of college football teams is a striking result. We all know recruiting matters, but I never would have guessed it mattered quite that much.

Bravo, sir.

De gustibus non est disputandum

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 1:14 PM | posted from iPhone (Score:2)
SoFlaWolverine
SoFlaWolverine's picture
Joined: 07/08/2011
MGoPoints: 373

Let the drooling over our future defense begin. Pipkins at dt, Wilson at s, Richardson at cb, Ross/Bolden/RJS at lb. All these 4 stars should tear it up under Mattison and Hoke.

Denard is my homeboy.

University of Michigan Class of 2014

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 1:16 PM | Very Impressive Work Mathlete (Score:2)
MichTits
Joined: 07/08/2009
MGoPoints: 147

I really really enjoy reading these analyses that you put together!

I notice that you chose the Rivals database to use for your recruiting rankings, which makes a lot of sense since they have the most data available.  I wonder if you could use your same methodologies and Scout/ESPN/247 databases (assuming information is available) to see how their rankings correlate with future success and thus provide another bullet point in the argument of which recruiting service has the most reliable rankings. 

Obviously team success and individual success are not the same, and also you can only really work with the data that is available.  But I think it would certainly be interesting, especially as more and more recruiting data becomes available. 

Party...

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 2:03 PM | Logically this seems to make (Score:1)
lunchboxthegoat
lunchboxthegoat's picture
Joined: 10/07/2008
MGoPoints: 1888

Logically this seems to make perfect sense as well.

 

Its a lot easier to hide your weaknesses athletically when you can control where a play is going and forcing someone to react to you. On defense you can get away with being technique sloppy or imperfect if you're a phenomenol athlete. A lot of defense is reacting and physically overmatching your opponent. You can't really finesse an opponent on defense and have long term success.

successfully achieved 1 year self-imposed posting ban 4/10/13

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 2:30 PM | very nice work (Score:1)
snowcrash
Joined: 07/22/2008
MGoPoints: 1585

I like the way you included percentile rank within position, which is a way to make a distinction between a high 4-star and low 4-star, etc.

This would probably be very labor-intensive, but it would be interesting to see what would happen if you controlled for collective number of games started prior to the season. For example, I would guess that Auburn's 2011 defense did very poorly compared to its recruiting rankings, but this should not have been too surprising given how little experience they had. 

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 4:22 PM | Stars are pointless... (Score:1)
Lucky1349
Joined: 04/10/2011
MGoPoints: 61

Look at the player's offer sheet and the depth of the player's position on the offering teams...

Wherever you go, desire is desire... The sun cannot bleach it, nor the tide wash it away...

  • Login or register to post comments
January 17th, 2012 at 6:20 PM | mini case study proves you right (Score:1)
Coach Schiano
Coach Schiano's picture
Joined: 10/05/2008
MGoPoints: 3057

Alabama: oversigns like crazy, is loaded with 4- and 5- stars.

Alabama: has ridiculous awesome defense.

QED, you are right. Mathlete, you did it again!

More seriously, very nice numbers. I do wish I could look at them more myself though (but perhaps you don't want to share the database...?)

 

I am not really Coach Schiano. -Coach Schiano on Mgoblog

  • Login or register to post comments
Powered by Pressflow, an open source content management system
Theme provided by Roopletheme; sidebars adapted from Chris Murphy.