Was the defense reeeeally that bad?
Hi guys, please go easy on me as this is my first post and I'm a relative newcomer to being a die-hard UM football fan, but was our defense really that bad last year? Having been at all the games, I can say it seemed more the product of a stagnant offense, where our lack of ability to go more than 3 and out caused our un-Barwissian defense to be on the field too long.
Even when the defense was able to make a stop, I have to lay a bit of the impetus of our statistical suckitude on the fact that Martavius Maximus Rex (or anyone else, for that matter) was unable to hold on to that damn porcine hide long enough to give our John Thompsons enough time to catch some oxygen. What do you think?
I simply have a hard time believing that it was all the fault of the bumbling Shafer or our bad secondary that led to the third and long conversions by the other offense; it seems much more plausible that our players were simply going on fumes. But, I'm still a weanling babe, with nary a hint of the experience of you mighty minds.
Even when the defense was able to make a stop, I have to lay a bit of the impetus of our statistical suckitude on the fact that Martavius Maximus Rex (or anyone else, for that matter) was unable to hold on to that damn porcine hide long enough to give our John Thompsons enough time to catch some oxygen. What do you think?
I simply have a hard time believing that it was all the fault of the bumbling Shafer or our bad secondary that led to the third and long conversions by the other offense; it seems much more plausible that our players were simply going on fumes. But, I'm still a weanling babe, with nary a hint of the experience of you mighty minds.
Michigan's third down defense was also awful though. I remember a lot of good first and second down defense being soulcrushed on third and nine. I think it had something to do with a switch from heavy reliance on good corner play in Carr's D to heavy reliance on good safety play in Shafer's D. Our safeties were not up to that challenge in year one. I don't know though.
Either way, last year could not have happened without an outright catastrophe of special teams, offense and defense if you ask me. Although, you could say that our D was doomed from day one, having no one to practice against but our botched abortion of an offense.
I like your anlaysis of the switch from corner play to safety play. That was probably the crux of the problem, as the safety play was obviously not up to par.
But I am going to side with those who say (even if they haven't) that the defense, while by no means apic or as good as we all thought it would be, was absolutley made worse by the offensive and special teams clusterfuckage.
I also agree that if the offense and special teams play improves by 25%, the team will improve by at least 50% this coming season.
I think that is something that we often overlook in our gnashing of teeth over safety play in the last decade. Carr produced some excellent corners.
As far as special teams, I honestly believe if M had avoided punted balls like the plague and let every kickoff roll out the back of the endzone, they probably would have been .500 last season. Oh well!
Anyway, enjoy the rest of your first day on the inside.
Welcome to the Blog. Read everything and learn from wisdom of others and meditate on this wisdom and the greatness that is Ti Kwan Leap (Boot to the Head - Dr. Demento).
There were times, Purdue, MSU, Illinois for examples where the defensive scheme, execution or talent or some combination costing us yards, points or games.
Yes the offense was hideous at times and the special teams did tend drop the pigskin, but the defense was supposed to be the veteran part of the team that was thought to steady the ship while the offense matured.
There was no steadiness, the offense didn't really mature, aside from Minor Rage and the TOs came from every angle.
It was a perfect storm of problems, injuries, inexperience and learning a whole new system.
It's over now and we need to focus on this year. All that bad shit is in the past, where I'd like it to stay. I am trying to recover from the punt and kick return fumbles of last season. While watching the OSU Rivalry DVDs I still winced when Toomer or Thomas or even Woodson returned a kick of any kind.
It will take a while to heal those wounds, but I have great optimism for this season, we will do GREAT things.
GO BLUE!
...the fault of the offense in 2008 lay largely at the feet of the O-Line and the QBs, not the wideouts, and especially not Martavious Odoms. I've studied this and it wasn't his fault.
The defense was okay in some games, horrible in others (like, all they gave up over 40 points). They'll be okay this year if there are no injuries and if the offense keeps the ball more, which they will.
You studied the wideouts as found them competent?????
They broke off routes. They sucked blocking. Our QB play was terrible and the WR didn't do anything to help.
Our WR's were very underwhelming. Our most memorable receptions were from McGuffie and Koger.
The OL grew as a group and improved. The RB's improved. The WR's did not.
in response to a guy, blueseoul i believe, who stated that Martavious Odoms had a terrible year and was one of the worst leading receivers for Michigan, ever.
Here is the data:
http://mgoblog.com/diaries/statistical-response-blueseouls-critique-mar…
I'm not saying that Odoms is the next Anthony Carter. What I am saying by reviewing all of 2008's data is that Odoms, for example, was put in a terrible position on almost 30% of his throws by either awful QB throwing or missed blocks. When he was given a chance, he produced rather well. And yes, I know about the fumble problem. I would submit that will even itself out this year when he isn't forced to play slot every snap as well as return kicks.
As for the rest of the wideouts, well, I picked Odoms as a point of productivity from the wideouts. I found Stonum and Matthews to be substandard in catching and blocking, though the inconsistent QB play surely led to some of that. You're right though, the wideouts need to improve. The introduction of Roundtree, Gallon, Stokes, T-Rob and the reintroduction of Hemingway should help in that regard.
he'll break out this year with a QB that can get him the ball with proper timing. Forcier has great timing and touch on short passes, especially bubble screens. The electron WR's will demonstrate their effectiveness this season.
I couldn't agree more on bad route running by the wide outs - while the QB play was very poor, the WR's have to learn how to run a clean route and, most importantly, how to come back to the ball on an intermediate route when the ball is in the air (especially w/ QB's that don't have great arm strength) - you have to put your body between the defender and the oncoming ball and get to the ball first. If instead, you stay stationary or, worse yet, drift up field, you give the defender the chance to make the play.
This is a very under-rated skill and has nothing to do w/ 40 speed - basically the difference between a football player and a guy that can run. There had to be 3 or 4 times a game in 2008 where a good WR would've made the catch instead of the pass being broken up - that's 3 to 4 first downs rather than drives killed.
It had to be difficult for any WR to be motivated when he know that no matter how often he got open, neither QB was remotely capable of getting the ball there in an accurate, timely manner. Playing with Threet-idan had to be the most demoralizing experience a WR could have, at least at a school of UM's caliber.
I'm willing to give them a free pass for last year, especially since last year happened last year.
1) offenssive line was awefull at the begining of the year, what our young qb's needed was time to get confidence, the oline did not give them that chance..
2)LB's not being able to hold verticals and cover in space, put too much preasure on safeties to come up, and too big of gaps between lb's and saefties, casued shafer to do things he didnt want to have to do.
3) QB's once the oline started to gell, the damage had laready been done, the young QB's were never able to get going, and their confidence were gone, and their lack of physical tools was very apparent
4) Wr's were not good, but again the first couple of games the oline didnt give them a chance, so it snowballed...
Have you given your opinion on the new DC hire? I'd be interested to hear your take. I know you liked Shafer, but do you think the D will improve?
Granted, Syracuse sucked while he was there, but I think that his previous stints as DC (or assistant DC) give credence to the fact that he can probably coach pretty well. Another plus is that he has a TON of pro experience, which is always great in earning the trust of new players.
GSimms.
Different combinations of skill sets will flourish/go overshadowed differently in a head coach versus a coordinator position.
To your point #3, there was really only one game in which a healthy Threet intersected with a capable offensive line - PSU's 1st half. That was the first time the offensive line truly played well, and Threet was legitimately excellent in the first half of the game. He injured his elbow on the first series of the second half, played hurt through MSU, and took a concussion againt Purdue (which he again played through). He missed Minnesota, and then played briefly againt Northwestern - when he again got hurt.
People trash the kid a bunch, but he was the most battered QB I can remember in Michigan history.
Both physically and mentally/emotionally. Sheridan got more crap from the fan base, but even without the physical beat-down our opponents put on Threet, he had all kinds of pressure and no meaningful experience.
He's definitely got some potential, and hopefully in a different situtation he'll be able to thrive.
For a high school, all conference honorable mention QB, I'd say the glass is half full.
You guys took the bait. I'm impressed
Michigan's defense was terrible and it was mostly independent of how poor the offense was. I don't buy the explanation that we had a decent defense that was just tired all the time. Even when our offense came together our defense still sucked horribly.
Wake me up in September when i can watch people argue about pink slips.
even jim tressel knew, and was willing to state to the media, that the UM defense generally was good, and then gave up big plays. This guy is shooting fish in a barrel. Just be patient, and then UM will fall apart. That is what happened. I have written about the safety play; that several of the big running plays were given up when safety Harrison (not Brown, he had other problems) rammed himself into a crowd of players, thus not closing any gap. Sometimes there were two gaps. Instead of gambling and picking one gap, or staying back and waiting for the runner to commit to a gap, he more than once avoided all gaps. I know nothing of good safety play, but even little kids in soccer are taught not to commit.
How will this compare to this year's safety play? Don't know.
This is true. We gave up so many big plays last year, it's ridiculous. Ohio State last year only gained 13 first downs, but gained 416 total yards and scored 42 points. 284 yards came on six plays. They got 132 yards on their other 50 plays. I think that the level of domination by our defensive line has been widely overlooked. That's why I'm so worried about our defense this year. Our front four could stuff running plays and put pressure on the quarterback and our back 7 still failed to keep opponents off the scoreboard. I'm terrified of what we'll look like now that opponents won't have to roll out the quarterback to avoid the pressure.
I do remember screaming at the TV on multiple occasions when a defensive player (db) ran up into a pile of players and failed to make any significant contribution while the opposing team's RB ran the ball home after coming out through a gap a turtle could saunter through. I noted it early and it continued all year. The screaming about it never stopped.
Also, there was significant ranting about the lack of a special teams coach, particularly when the ball ended up on the ground most of the time on returns. Added to that, blocking was nonexistent when the ball wasn't on the ground.
Who calls last years defense the "worst in Michigan history" is a cork-on-fork fucknugget who can't look beyond the raw PPG and YA stats. Now, I'd support you if you called the offense the worst in Michigan history...and if you acknowledge that, you must understand how helpless the defense is in the wake of that disaster.
The points have already been made by gsimms and co. I will argue, though, that outside of Illinois and Purdue - our defense gave us a chance in every game. It was a really good unit, unfortunately their big mistakes were backbreakers because the offense was incapable of helping them out. It makes that Wisconsin comeback that much more unbelievable.
Why are you so angry all the time? All your posts are like this.
Anyway, while no one can deny that the offense did little to help the D, the reverse was true, too. The offense started many, many drives in bad field position. The defense did not get many takeaways and forced relatively few three-and-outs. Part of the reason why our TOP regularly sucked was that the D just couldn't get stops on 3rd downs.
A middle-of-the-pack offense sends last years team to a bowl game. The numbers heavily favor the argument that it's mostly the offenses fault, and the defense was pretty good sans those massive brainfarts.
And I'm angry because I'm pale, fat, overweight and I've never been laid. But at least I'm a Michigan Man amirite?
Before you blame it all on the offense, remember that Michigan had a lead of some sort, at some point in every game except ND and OSU.
The defense had strengths, but also critical weaknesses. I hope and think that many of them can be corrected by scheme/coaching.
Your point about the defense being boom or bust is true, but it's sort of an "other than that, mrs Lincoln, how was the play?" thing. All those huge plays count, and giving up around thirty big plays in twelve games is, by any defenition, bad.
how many of those big plays can be attributed to our defense being completely gassed from the offense sucking dick all day, but I'd say there are a few here and there. All I know is, an offense ranked somewhere in the 60s nationally hangs tough with Penn State and OSU in the second half, and wins most of the other games. Again, the defense was mostly competent in every game sans Purdue/Illinois...and maybe MSU I guess.
I'm going to have to go back to what nmwolverine said. About the lack of support by the safeties at the line of scrimmage. The overcommitment, early in the play leading to nobody left to stop the RB coming through another gap further down the line. It did happen a lot and it gave up quite a few huge plays.
I highly recommend the 'laid' status, it rocks! Lose some weight, get a tan, those changes are sure to help. Go 'bi', that there would double your chances in a bar...
P.S. advice for Huss, hope it helps :)
There was the secondary which was hold your breath bad. Then there was the line which was to me nearly 2006-level exciting. Why do we have to group them together? It just makes it impossible to fairly rate them. Maybe I'm cherry picking my memories, but Mike Martin and Brandon Graham were downright awesome and don't deserve to be lumped in with any team as derided as last year's D.
even with everything else in consideration. The Dline was great. The linebackers showed glimmers at times (Ezeh, Mouton) but still could improve (which I think they will this year) and the secondary was awful.
I don't know why. Maybe this is irrational, but I think the defense will be decent this year.
Michigan Defense usually has a good defense every year, last year I think the defense was a little weak. But I dont think coach Rod will let them be like that anymore, I mean this is michigan football where defense is played. I think Michigan will be pretty exciting this year but young still but in a couple years watch out! I really think Tate will be one of the top QBs in the beg ten in a couple years. I think the wolverines will be 500 this year after a 3-9 record last year we will take 500, and better every year. Anywyas im excited for michigan football. To all my michigan friends check our site out at www.mgobluefootball.com check it out and tell me what ya think.
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