Home
supporting the Clint Eastwood State Fightin' John Waynes since 2011

Primary links

  • About
    • $upport (lol)
    • Ethics
    • FAQ
    • Privacy Policy
  • Contact
  • MGoStore
  • MGoBoard
    • MGoBoard FAQ
    • Ticket spreadsheet
    • Michigan bar locator
    • Moderator Action Sticky
  • Useful Stuff
    • Depth Chart By Class
    • Unofficial Two Deep
    • 2013 Offer Board
    • Crude Bug Tracking System
    • Third Down Stats
    • Diaries, Windows Live Writer, And You
    • Michigan Future Schedules
    • User-Curated HOF
    • Where To Eat In Ann Arbor
Home Diaries WolverineBlue's blog

Navigation

  • Forums
  • Recent posts

User login

  • Create new account
  • Request new password

MGoElsewhere

  • @MGoBlog (Brian)
  • @aceanbender
  • @TomVH (Tom)
  • RSS Feed
  • iPhone App
  • Facebook profile
  • MGoKindle Store
  • mgo.licio.us
  • Brian @ TSB [Archive]
  • Brian @ AOL [Archive]
  • Sour Salty Bitter Sweet

Michigan Blogs

  • Big House Blog
  • Brice's Recruiting
  • Burgeoning Wolverine Star
  • Genuinely Sarcastic
  • Go Blue Michigan Wolverine
  • Holdin' The Rope
  • MGoFootball
  • MVictors
  • Maize 'n' Blue Nation
  • Maize 'n' Brew
  • Maize And Go Blue
  • Michigan Football Recruiting
  • Michigan Hockey Net
  • The Blog That Yost Built
  • The Hoover Street Rag
  • The M Zone
  • The Wolverine Blog
  • Touch The Banner
  • UMGoBlog
  • UMHoops
  • UMTailgate
  • Wolverine Liberation Army

M On The Net

  • mgovideo
  • MGoBlue.com
  • Mike DeSimone
  • Recruiting Planet
  • The Wolverine
  • Go Blue Wolverine
  • Winged Helmet
  • UMGoBlue.com
  • MaizeRage.org
  • Puckhead
  • The M Den
  • True Blue Fan Forum

Big Ten Blogs

  • Illinois
    • A Lion Eye
    • Hail To The Orange
    • Illinois Baseball Report
    • Illinois Loyalty
  • Indiana
    • Inside The Hall
    • The Crimson Quarry
  • Iowa
    • Black Heart, Gold Pants
    • Fight For Iowa
  • Michigan State
    • The Only Colors
  • Minnesota
    • GopherHole.com
    • The Daily Gopher
    • I'm In Love With A Fringe Bowl Team
    • TNABACG
  • Nebraska
    • Big Red Network
    • Corn Nation
    • Husker Mike's Blasphemy
    • Husker Gameday
  • Northwestern
    • Sippin' On Purple
    • Lake The Posts
  • Notre Dame
    • The House Rock Built
    • One Foot Down
  • Ohio State
    • Eleven Warriors
    • Buckeye Commentary
    • Men of the Scarlet and Gray
    • Our Honor Defend
    • The Buckeye Nine
  • Penn State
    • Slow States
    • Black Shoe Diaries
    • Happy Valley Hardball
    • Penn State Clips
    • Linebacker U
    • Nittany White Out
  • Purdue
    • Boiled Sports
    • Hammer and Rails
  • Wisconsin
    • Bruce Ciskie

Links of Note

  • Baseball
    • Big Ten Hardball
    • College Baseball Today
    • The Baseball Zealot
    • The College Baseball Blog
  • Basketball
    • Ken Pomeroy
    • Basketball Prospectus
    • Midmajority
  • College Hockey
    • Chris Heisenberg
    • College Hockey Stats
    • Inside College Hockey
    • Michigan College Hockey
    • Hockey's Future
    • Sioux Sports
    • USCHO
    • Western College Hockey
    • CCHA
      • LSSU Hockey
      • Bronco Hockey Blog
  • Football
    • Smart Football
    • Every Day Should Be Saturday
    • Doctor Saturday
    • CFB Stats
    • Harold Stassen
    • NCAA D-I Stats Page
    • The Wizard Of Odds
  • General
    • Sports Central
  • Local Interest
    • The Ann Arbor Chronicle
    • Arborwiki
    • Arbor Update
    • Teeter Talk
    • Vacuum
  • Teams Of The D
    • Lions
      • Pride of Detroit
      • Fire Millen
    • Pistons
      • Detroit Bad Boys
      • Need4Sheed
    • Tigers
      • Roar Of The Tigers
      • The Detroit Tigers Weblog
      • The Daily Fungo
    • Red Wings
      • On The Wings
      • Behind The Jersey
      • Winging It In Motown
    • Michigan Sports Forum

Get Yer Tickets

Find the best US sports betting sites on the web at onlinebetting.com. Sports wagering is getting more and more popular each year, so place your bets online today.

Enjoy online gambling? Why not try online poker or online roulette? Especially online roulette for real money. If you are going to play poker, then make sure you use the PartyPoker bonus code or PokerStars marketing code when signing up to these two poker giants.

If you're looking for online sports betting, Sportsbooks is your best option. Nothing else compares in variety and reliability.

Football Display Case

NFL Watches

Follow your favorite team with localtv-satellite.com: Click Here.

Always better to play free blackjack and free Flash slots online before making a purchase on any real online casino.

Site Search

Diaries

  • New
  • Popular
  • Hot
  • Michigan Football 101
    cstalionsuofm - 3 hours ago
  • The Blockhams in "TACKLING TECHNIQUE"
    Six Zero - 15 hours ago
  • College Football 101 (#100)
    cstalionsuofm - 1 day ago
  • Big Ten Recruiting Rankings: 5-21-12
    Ace - 1 day ago
  • College Football 101
    cstalionsuofm - 2 days ago
  •  
  • 1 of 5
  • ››
more
  • Dear Mr. Woodson; Quit talking to Mark Snyder.
    Section 1 - 4,958 views
  • Big Ten Recruiting Rankings: 5-21-12
    Ace - 3,470 views
  • Nebraska Recruiting, Michigan and the rest of the B1G
    UMgradMSUdad - 3,013 views
  • College Football 101
    cstalionsuofm - 1,626 views
  • Space, bitches...wallpaper edition...
    jonvalk - 1,571 views
  •  
  • 1 of 2
  • ››
more
  • Dear Mr. Woodson; Quit talking to Mark Snyder.
    Section 1 - 137 comments
  • College Football 101
    cstalionsuofm - 43 comments
  • Conference Champions Only? A Playoff Case Study
    stephenrjking - 38 comments
  • Choosing Playoff Participants: Poll, Committee, or Autobid?
    oakapple - 27 comments
  • College Football 101 (#100)
    cstalionsuofm - 15 comments
  •  
  • 1 of 2
  • ››
more

MGoBoard

  • New
  • Recent
  • Hot
  • The real reason Michigan will be able to torture Ohio (spin off from Mgo.licio)
    0 replies
  • Commit Watch? Buckle Up
    38 replies
  • College Football 101 (#99)
    7 replies
  • Michigan has interest in ATH Darren Carrington
    31 replies
  • Michigan Profits $79K from Sugar Bowl
    19 replies
  • Bruce Feldman profile of William Gholston
    35 replies
  • OT: Suggest Crazy Names for Michigan Coaching Positions (a la Stanford)
    58 replies
  • SIAP: When do single game tickets go on sale?
    11 replies
  • Rich Maloney and Michigan Part Ways
    46 replies
  • OT - Stanford names OC position after Andrew Luck
    57 replies
  • Brandon, Hollis nominated for SBJ Athletic Director of the Year
    18 replies
  • College Football Resumes in 100 days
    16 replies
  • OT: More Big XII Expansion Info
    73 replies
  • Borges loves recruiting to Michigan
    50 replies
  • Cowboys Classic 8pm start, The Game with Noon start
    25 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 7
  • ››
  • Su'a Cravens to Visit Michigan and Ohio State in the Next Week
    56 replies
  • College Football 101 (#99)
    7 replies
  • Commit Watch? Buckle Up
    38 replies
  • ESPN: Coaches Fans Hate (refers to UM Fans hating Tressel and GRob)
    48 replies
  • The real reason Michigan will be able to torture Ohio (spin off from Mgo.licio)
    0 replies
  • OT: More Big XII Expansion Info
    73 replies
  • Michigan has interest in ATH Darren Carrington
    31 replies
  • Rich Maloney and Michigan Part Ways
    46 replies
  • OT - Stanford names OC position after Andrew Luck
    57 replies
  • OT: Suggest Crazy Names for Michigan Coaching Positions (a la Stanford)
    58 replies
  • Bruce Feldman profile of William Gholston
    35 replies
  • OT: James Bond Skyfall Trailer Edit: & Top 5 Bond movies list
    88 replies
  • Michigan Profits $79K from Sugar Bowl
    19 replies
  • Michigan/'Bama Super Regional Softball Preview
    26 replies
  • SIAP: When do single game tickets go on sale?
    11 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 7
  • ››
  • OT: Friday Afternoon "Whatcha Doing?" Open Posbang Thread
    252 replies
  • DAB: Alternate FB Uni Plan Forthcoming
    150 replies
  • MICHIGAN SOFTBALL: REGIONAL CHAMPS
    147 replies
  • Softball vs. Louisville open thread
    111 replies
  • OT: Champions League final discussion & live thread
    98 replies
  • Devin Gardner changes Number
    96 replies
  • Dallas Morning News: Big 12 Source said "We Might Be Moving Toward 4 Superconferences"
    96 replies
  • Scout revamps their player rankings
    95 replies
  • 5 star RB Davis to USC
    95 replies
  • Roy Roundtree to wear #21
    94 replies
  • OT: FSU to Big 12 talk picking up heat. Clemson and Georgia Tech in talks with big 12
    94 replies
  • OT-Pam Ward removed from ESPN college football coverage
    89 replies
  • FWIW Probable USC commit S'ua Craven has narrowed his list
    89 replies
  • OT: James Bond Skyfall Trailer Edit: & Top 5 Bond movies list
    88 replies
  • OT - Rosenberg to SI...Deservedly?
    80 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 7
  • ››

mgo.licio.us

  • Former Michigan players see Wolverines 'torturing' Urban Meyer and Ohio State in coming years

    There's absolutely no way that ends up on a bulletin board somewhere

    0 comments
  • Former U-M tight end Bennie Joppru, 32, recovering from stroke

    best wishes

    2 comments
  • Michigan's Lewan maturing into a leader

    but what about the bike?

    1 comments
  • Relegation in College Football!

    amazingly, we don't go down in 2008.

    2 comments
  • Newest commit Copp discusses high-school football career, decision to pursue hockey

    “We’ve had season tickets (at Yost Ice Arena) ever since I was born,” he said. “It’s always been the dream to play there.”

    0 comments
  • FACES OF DESPAIR: BIG TEN MEETINGS

    "The wolf is the only constant, Adam. It takes care of its own and lives in the wound called the world. She rips it anew each day for the blood she needs to survive."

    0 comments
  • DTotD: An overhead kick to the throat in MLS

    Justin Meram didn't just score

    0 comments
  • Devin Booker blowing up, sticking to roots

    offer coming in a month, most likely

    0 comments
  • Versatile Nik Stauskas ready to do a bit of everything for the Michigan basketball team

    "I had so many Michigan fans and other people messaging me on Twitter and saying 'I hope you're ready to play point guard. I was a little bit worried."

    1 comments
  • Eso Akunne of Michigan Wolverines holds memories of mom close

    "Come home. We need to talk about mom."

    0 comments
  • Get Familiar: Michigan verbal Taco Charlton

    Enjoys things with "game" in the title.

    2 comments
  • Scouting Video: Derrick Walton at 2012 Spiece Run ‘n Slam

    sounds like all three Michigan commits are improving their stock so far

    0 comments
  • WTKA 1050AM Mott Takeover Schedule

    all of the people

    0 comments
  • Borges on Alabama game: Preparation 'has already begun'

    I'd hope so

    0 comments
  • Glen Steele tribute - YouTube

    one of the greatest names of all time #ofalltime

    1 comments
  •  
  • 1 of 2
  • ››
more

Toussaint Touchdown? - Forensic Analysis

By WolverineBlue — December 22nd, 2011 at 11:01 AM — 77 comments
Filed under:
  • 2011 Michigan versus Ohio
  • Fitzgerald Toussaint
  • football

MGoCSI Report

 

“The Game” has come and gone, the good guys prevailed, and our collective mindset has mostly reoriented to the future, as visions of Sugar Bowls dance in our heads. So is there any reason to rehash the already much-debated issue of the Toussaint Touchdown Takeaway?

Of course there is, because such things live on in Michigan lore forever and sometimes, you have to beat a dead horse just for the sheer fun of it. Besides, I had an unsatisfied curiosity combined with some unaccustomed free time, so I set about to try to resolve the controversy once and for all.

This analysis may not appeal to you unless you are almost equal parts Michigan football fanatic and geometry geek, but in the end, I believe there is an important point to be made here. To discover my purpose, you will have to read on (or cheat and jump to the end).

 

The Evidence Speaks to Us

 

I start with Exhibit A below, a camera view that seems to suggest that Fitz planted his knee with the ball just short of the goal line. Almost certainly, it was this view that convinced the replay official to reverse the call on the field and overturn the touchdown. The shot appears to have been taken by a crane-mounted camera hovering about 10 feet in the air just beyond the goal line. It is not an ideal angle from which to make a definitive call. The knee may or may not be in contact with the ground and the relative position of the ball is distorted slightly by the angle. (Note: for formatting reasons, I am including scaled down versions of these screen shots; full resolution captures were used for the actual analysis. Click the photos for larger versions).

Exhibit A

Exhibit A

 

I use Exhibit A not to attempt to resolve the issue at hand, but to call attention to the item highlighted in magenta. There is a cameraman clearly visible in the shot and it is his footage that will provide the basis for further analysis. We don’t know his name (Abe Zapruder?), but we have a very good idea of the physical position of his camera. The dashed boundary line he is standing very close to runs 12 feet outside the sideline. By analyzing statistical data on the average height of college cheerleaders, we can fairly accurately estimate the center of the lens to be 5’ 4” off the ground. I estimate his standing position to be 11 feet east of the side line and 2.5 feet south of the goal line. These estimates probably place the camera position reliably within an error sphere less than 1 foot in radius. This is important as we move forward with the analysis.

Let us move on to Exhibit B, which was definitively taken before Toussaint’s knee fell to earth, and Exhibit C, a shot in which he is definitely down. The time interval between these two shots is presumably 1/60th of a second, given the parameters of 720p HD video. I will focus my attention on Exhibit C.

Exhibit B

Exhibit B

 

Exhibit C

Exhibit C

 

The time has come to let mathematics work its wonderful magic. Again, the viewing angle is not perfect, but because we were able to accurately determine the viewing position of the source camera, some surprisingly precise calculations are possible.

The dimensions and positions of the gridiron lines and hash marks are well known and presumably accurate. The only thing I am not quite sure of is the crown of the playing surface, which appears to be about 6-9 inches at midfield.

This allowed me to create a three-dimensional computer model of the playing surface and made it possible to determine the orientation of the camera (azimuth, elevation, zoom, and tilt) by matching the grid lines appearing within the frame with that of the rendered computer model.

Knowing this, we can now focus on the position of the ball within the frame. A more closely-cropped view is presented in Exhibit D. The projection of the ball in the frame spans about 40 pixels. Therefore we can determine its position within the 2 dimensional space of the video frame to an accuracy of about a quarter of an inch.

Exhibit D

Exhibit D

 

The real world has the inconvenient habit of being three-dimensional, so there is one additional parameter required to ascertain the position of the ball relative to the plane of the goal line. This would be the distance from the camera to the ball, or alternatively, the perpendicular distance from the near (Zapruder) sideline to the ball. By examining other angles from the game video and observing grid lines, hash marks, and end zone lettering, this can be determined to be about 90 feet, plus or minus 2 feet.

The final calculation will be slightly sensitive to this distance, so I went ahead and determined the corresponding position of the ball over a range of two foot intervals between 88 and 92 foot distant from the sideline. The plot below (Exhibit E) shows a top down projection of the ball’s position relative to the goal line over the range of possible values. Due to the near perpendicular viewing angle from just off the goal line, the error contribution from this uncertainty is quite small (.3 inches per foot of error) and yet this is the largest source of potential error. Any imprecision in establishing camera position is largely cancelled by adjusting angles to precisely overlay grid line positions within the frame. I won’t bury you with an avalanche of error sensitivity equations; suffice it to say that I am confident that the final estimate of ball position relative to the goal line is accurate to within half an inch.

Exhibit E

 

Based on the best estimate of distance from the sideline (center ball), the results sadly report that Toussaint is holding the ball 2.5 inches short of the goal line with his knee clearly down. So, technically, the officials got the call right. Did the replay official have irrefutable evidence to overturn the call? Of course not! The ball was just inches from the goal line and he did not have the resources to make a definitive determination.

Conclusion

The play was so close that it was not humanly possible for an official on the field to make the call with complete certainty. The difference between touchdown and being down short of the goal line was a matter of inches and hundredths of a second. While the determination was ultimately correct, I think we can also safely claim that the replay official overstepped his authority by reversing the call on the field, based on the “irrefutable evidence” criterion and the limited technology available to him.

 

But my real point in all of this is to call attention to the fact that making an accurate determination is possible and current technology could accomplish this in real time, using techniques very similar to those employed to superimpose the first down line over the playing field, or track pitch trajectories in a baseball game. There is no need to put sensors in the ball or anything like that and accuracy within a fraction of an inch can be achieved. Higher frame rates and faster shutter speeds (super slow motion) improve the accuracy further.Multiple camera angles help as well. Cameras already have sensors to report their positions and orientations. I am calling on companies like SportVision that do enhanced sports graphics to develop the software to provide accurate ball positioning information to the fans and, dare I say, to the replay officials so that in the future, key plays like this can be accurately adjudicated.

 

  • WolverineBlue's blog
  • Login or register to post comments

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:08 AM | This is very impressive (Score:3 Normal)
Erik_in_Dayton
Erik_in_Dayton's picture
Joined: 12/03/2008
MGoPoints: 4584

Thanks for doing this.

It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra

                         

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:32 PM | Agree, Great Stuff (Score:0 Offtopic)
VAGoBlue
Joined: 01/02/2011
MGoPoints: 228

The key point in this is the  subtle move from keepinng the call on the field, unless unquestioned video evidence to now using video evidence alone(it seems) to make the final call. Wonder how the refs feel about this change?

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 1:44 PM | One question for the OP (Score:0 Offtopic)
Maize and Blue ...
Maize and Blue 4 Life's picture
Joined: 03/15/2009
MGoPoints: 3399

Why did you only chose to use the camera that appears to be on or very near the one yard line.  Shouldn't you also use the camera that was in the end zone to help prove your conclusion since it will give you a look that obviously appears to be a touchdown and may change your conclusion?  This happened right in front of me and I was in row 8.  Even the Ohio fans behind me thought it was a TD and were shocked when the call got overturned.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 3:19 PM | Other angle (Score:1 Offtopic)
WolverineBlue
WolverineBlue's picture
Joined: 01/09/2010
MGoPoints: 503

For one thing, I could not get any kind of accurate position information on the west sideline camera. I believe it was a mobile crane camera, but it does not appear clearly in the reverse angle, so I could only guess where it was filming from. Without more accurate placement data, the accuracy of the results would have been less. Also the zoom factor was lower and the ball is less visible, so it was a much less useful angle.

 

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 3:29 PM | The end zone camera with (Score:1 Offtopic)
oriental andrew
oriental andrew's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 4043

The end zone camera with Toussaint running toward it wouldn't help you determine the distance he had to the goal line.  What would have helped validate his conclusion is if we knew the position of the camera on the other end of the goal line. 

For my privacy, my new username is "non-Oriental non-Andrew"
 

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:14 AM | Oh. My. Word. So who (Score:5 Normal)
BlockM
BlockM's picture
Joined: 07/03/2008
MGoPoints: 24905

Oh. My. Word.

So who actually killed Kennedy?

A few things:

1. Why don't they just put a camera on the goal line? If that guy's standing a couple feet to his right, none of this is even a question because the camera angle is set up for these calls.

2. I'd love to see a real-time system built to do this kind of thing. Sounds like a lot of fun to put together.

3. Again. Oh. My. Good to get some of closure.

http://pbloem.blogspot.com/ | @pnbloem | Ultra-MGoBoard

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:18 AM | Ive always wondered myself (Score:2)
go16blue
go16blue's picture
Joined: 04/28/2010
MGoPoints: 2860

Ive always wondered myself why they couldn't set up a goal line gamera, it would just mean moving over the equipment by a foot. Another thing the networks don't do is sync up their videos and play multiple angles simultaneously. That way you could get a good view of when someone is down, and where the ball was at that time, assuming both were not clearly visible in the same shot.

COYS and lets go Detroit FC!

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:24 AM | droid (Score:4 Normal)
Lets_Go_Blue
Lets_Go_Blue's picture
Joined: 10/06/2010
MGoPoints: 1517

Because it would just videotape the back of the ref's head. The ref stands there to make the call on the field.

Football is both an identity and a terminal illness. A rhythm and a chaos and an opiate for the mind all at once.

     -Johnny Danbury (umichedme.blogspot.com)

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:32 AM | Right, but you could put it (Score:3 Normal)
BlockM
BlockM's picture
Joined: 07/03/2008
MGoPoints: 24905

Right, but you could put it above the ref, between the ref's legs, or heck, wireless cameras are cheap and small these days, just put it in the pylon!

http://pbloem.blogspot.com/ | @pnbloem | Ultra-MGoBoard

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 6:38 PM | The ref could even wear a (Score:2)
jmblue
Joined: 11/07/2008
MGoPoints: 26839

The ref could even wear a camera on his hat.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:26 AM | Does anyone know (Score:2)
Lets_Go_Blue
Lets_Go_Blue's picture
Joined: 10/06/2010
MGoPoints: 1517

how many angles you would need for a true 3D rendering? I've seen this stuff on CSI or something, and we know those shows don't lie.

Football is both an identity and a terminal illness. A rhythm and a chaos and an opiate for the mind all at once.

     -Johnny Danbury (umichedme.blogspot.com)

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:35 PM | You would need 2 cameras (Score:3 Normal)
YouremyboyBlue
YouremyboyBlue's picture
Joined: 12/13/2010
MGoPoints: 61

You would need only 2 cameras assuming that you know the exact position of each camera.  Each camera gives 2 dimensions, and as long as each camera isn't in the exact same position (practically impossible), then you can find where anything is in 3 dimensional space.  Of course, if you want to get real exact, you would want to sync up the cameras so that the shutters open and close at the exact same time. 

This is how they do the strike zone thing in baseball.  Also, this is how humans have depth perception (two eyes, a couple inches apart), and 3-D movies are shot (the cameras have two lenses separated by a foot or less).  If it seems like I know too much about this, my Ph.D. thesis involves two high frame-rate cameras used simultaneously to determine a particle's position in 3D space as a function of time.

Edit: Of course the accuracy of your method is limited by camera resolution.

"Some people break under pressure, while others break records."

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:53 PM | Cameras (Score:1)
WolverineBlue
WolverineBlue's picture
Joined: 01/09/2010
MGoPoints: 503

Actually, you can infer a lot of 3D information from a single camera, since there are reference points in the frame whose exact 3d position is known (field markings). Two cameras give you a lot more information about the free moving objects and lets you construct 3d models of the scene, excluding only those areas that are hidden to both cameras. By incorporating additional information, like knowledge about human anatomy, you can make further inferences in constructing the models. This is similar to what the Xbox Kinect does.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 2:47 PM | That is correct... (Score:1)
YouremyboyBlue
YouremyboyBlue's picture
Joined: 12/13/2010
MGoPoints: 61

Yes, you are correct.  I felt like my post was getting too long to get into that, but since you brought it up...

It does, however, depend on your camera angle, as was mentioned and used in the post above.  Also, imaging a football field and human beings on it differs greatly from imaging a sphere in relative darkness (as in my thesis).

However, my point stands that for an exact 3D rendering, you would need 2 cameras.

"Some people break under pressure, while others break records."

  • Login or register to post comments
December 25th, 2011 at 1:42 AM | Technology (Score:1)
MGoSoftball
MGoSoftball's picture
Joined: 10/18/2010
MGoPoints: 2780

is a some-a-bitch.  Lets get the guys in the engineering building to mount camera inside the pylons.  Then we could mount one on the center-line of the goal post.  This would give us a 3D view of the ball at any time. (Provided the camera can actually locate or "see" the ball).

These cameras would be powered by DC current from connectors located in the turf and supplied via cable under the turf.  If a player hits the pylon, it will still break away and there will be zero risk of electrocution with only 12V of power.

This will, of course, make the pylons directional so someone will have to be responsible for ensuring the cameras are pointing in the correct direction.  I will volunteer to be this person.

The reply ref will have to be versed in CAD to be able to manipule the angles around.  It would take about 30 seconds to make a call. 

Now, I am not the first person to have this idea.  I just dont understand why they dont implement this.  We have cameras as small as a pencil eraser.  I just dont get it.

From the Red Cedar Message Board:  "God hates us."  Yes He does Lil Bro, yes he does.  Everyone hates you.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 23rd, 2011 at 12:45 AM | The answer... (Score:1)
Firstbase
Firstbase's picture
Joined: 09/30/2009
MGoPoints: 3048

...the magic loogie theory:

http://youtu.be/tBz3PqA2Fmc

 

"Look, our helmets got wings."

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:12 AM | This is just awesome (Score:3 Normal)
michgoblue
michgoblue's picture
Joined: 11/16/2009
MGoPoints: 10854

I don't know why but this is one of my favorite pieces of user-created content since Six-Zero unleashed "Wife Day."  This really is just a brilliant analysis of what could have been a cirtical play for us.

Every season, it seems like there are 2-3 really close calls like this, some of which impact the outcome of a game and potentially a season.  I hope that you will do something like this for any such plays that arise in the future.

Mods, during what will inevitably be a slow week, I suggest a bump to the front page on this.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:13 AM | he's in because, let's be (Score:4 Normal)
ish
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 7317

he's in because, let's be real - no buckeye could ever understand the math that proves that he's short.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:14 AM | Awesome work. At the time I (Score:2)
go16blue
go16blue's picture
Joined: 04/28/2010
MGoPoints: 2860

Awesome work. At the time I thought he was down, but even then I thought it was way too close to reverse.

COYS and lets go Detroit FC!

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:16 AM | Wow. (Score:2)
Lets_Go_Blue
Lets_Go_Blue's picture
Joined: 10/06/2010
MGoPoints: 1517

This blog amazes me every day. While its a shame he was not in, I agree it was impossible to have indisputable evidence. Thanks for taking time away from your family to do this.

Football is both an identity and a terminal illness. A rhythm and a chaos and an opiate for the mind all at once.

     -Johnny Danbury (umichedme.blogspot.com)

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:19 AM | And I thought I was a nerd... (Score:1)
Shmallhorse
Joined: 10/29/2011
MGoPoints: 28

Thanks for putting the time in on these calculations.  I always thought the replay ref got it right about the ball being short of the GL, but I agree with you that, at the time, the evidence was not irrefutable - hence, ANGAR!  Then there was the "place the ball on the 1 foot line" - hence, MOAR ANGAR!!!!

This post is just one more example of my MGoBlog is THE GREATEST COLLEGE BLOG ON THE PLANET (TGCBOTP?).

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:30 PM | TGCBOTP? (Score:2)
restive neb
restive neb's picture
Joined: 04/06/2009
MGoPoints: 480

TGBITU.*

There, fixed it for you.

 

* The greatest Blog in the universe.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 1:05 PM | IWHBBWTS. (Score:2)
bwgrudt1484
Joined: 06/21/2010
MGoPoints: 13396

IWHBBWTS.

Hail.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 4:18 PM | IYAGTIALAYMTMWISF (Score:3 Normal)
restive neb
restive neb's picture
Joined: 04/06/2009
MGoPoints: 480

If You Are Going To Invent A Long Acronym, You Must Tell Me What It Stands For.

Thanks.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:19 AM | ...By analyzing statistical (Score:5 Normal)
Brhino
Joined: 09/08/2009
MGoPoints: 1249

...By analyzing statistical data on the average height of college cheerleaders...

You will henceforth be known as "that creepy guy with the tape measure", won't you?

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:30 AM | How do you explain (Score:3 Normal)
quigley.blue
quigley.blue's picture
Joined: 03/01/2010
MGoPoints: 149

How do you explain your google search history to wife/girlfriend after that sort of research?

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 4:47 PM | Isn't that what clearing history is for? (Score:1)
bouje13
Joined: 11/27/2010
MGoPoints: 483

And either way it's just average cheerleader height. Meh you could look up much worse things

He only got the job because he's a Michigan Man not because he was the best.  Is that what Michigan is all about?  You do the best, you get the job.  This MM meme is crap.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:22 AM | Not to mention (Score:3 Normal)
WhoopinStick
Joined: 03/16/2010
MGoPoints: 120

Not only did the replay official overturn the call, they placed the ball on the one foot line.  Bad enough they overturned the call, but the ball was obviously a lot closer to the goal than a foot when the knee touches.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:24 AM | So they not only reject the TD but also spot it on the 1 foot (Score:3 Normal)
ImSoBlue
ImSoBlue's picture
Joined: 07/10/2008
MGoPoints: 838

line for mistake number 2 (not enough to over turn the call being mistake #1).  The spot is the real mystery to me.

That said, we won so the hell with it.  Kinda nice winning the last gameof the season isn't it?

That's why this is our greatest rivalry, you can feel good the rest of the year.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:31 AM | We haven't won our last game of the year (Score:1)
Maize and Blue ...
Maize and Blue 4 Life's picture
Joined: 03/15/2009
MGoPoints: 3399

It is being played January 3, in New Orleans.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:54 AM | calendar year is what was ment . . . (Score:1)
ImSoBlue
ImSoBlue's picture
Joined: 07/10/2008
MGoPoints: 838

Regardless, a bowl game loss does not get to me the same way as an Ohio loss.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 2:08 PM | not original with me (Score:2 Normal)
Smash Lampjaw
Smash Lampjaw's picture
Joined: 11/10/2011
MGoPoints: 206

But if they spotted the ball accurately at the 2.5 inch line, that would be evidence on its face that they did not have enough evidence to overturn the call. It may be a policy that any overturned touchdown will be placed at least 12 inches out. Eye-spotting is probably +/- 12 inches most of the time anyway, so how silly when they slide a credit card between the ball and the marker. Could you count bricks to cross-check the cheerleader height? Not as fun, i'm sure.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:25 AM | Thank you (Score:1)
chally
Joined: 11/25/2008
MGoPoints: 264

Thank you for doing this.  I always thought he looked short from both camera angles, but so many people disagreed that it was not worth arguing about.  It's good to know that I'm not completely crazy. 

Such cool work.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:26 AM | Fantastic work (Score:2 Normal)
beenplumb
beenplumb's picture
Joined: 10/15/2010
MGoPoints: 697

Even though your conclusion is contrary to the hopes of the Michigan fanbase, the fact that you put in the work and effort to get there, and still posted your findings speaks volumes of your analytic abilities and your character, and is a testament to the Michigan fanbase as a whole. Well done.

 

procsqlrunning.tumblr.com

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:26 AM |  This is the most complete (Score:5 Normal)
Go Blue Eyes
Go Blue Eyes's picture
Joined: 12/05/2010
MGoPoints: 571

 This is the most complete block of evidence since this Seinfeld episode:

 

 

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 1:26 PM | That is one magic loogie. (Score:1)
trueblueintexas
trueblueintexas's picture
Joined: 11/10/2008
MGoPoints: 741

That is one magic loogie.

"Anyone who isn't confused, really doesn't understand the situation." - Edward R. Murrow

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:30 AM | Can you do Junior Hemingway's catch next? (Score:2)
oakapple
Joined: 02/06/2009
MGoPoints: 1188

I agree that the evidence for Fitz’s TD was not irrefutable, given the information available to the replay official at the time. On the other hand, the replay official seems to have considered your Exhibit A sufficient proof. Fair-minded fans should want the calls to be correct, and in the end this call was exactly that: correct.

Marc Shepherd
New York, NY

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:35 AM | Hemingway's catch wasn't a (Score:2)
BlockM
BlockM's picture
Joined: 07/03/2008
MGoPoints: 24905

Hemingway's catch wasn't a matter of geometry. It was a matter of deciding if he had possession when he went out of bounds.

http://pbloem.blogspot.com/ | @pnbloem | Ultra-MGoBoard

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:41 AM | which he did (Score:5 Normal)
Erik_in_Dayton
Erik_in_Dayton's picture
Joined: 12/03/2008
MGoPoints: 4584

of course.

It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future. -- Yogi Berra

                         

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:36 AM | This call was correct? (Score:1)
Maize and Blue ...
Maize and Blue 4 Life's picture
Joined: 03/15/2009
MGoPoints: 3399

What?  Are you talking about the call on the field or what the replay officials ruled?  You know he didn't use the camera that was in the end zone, in this analysis, that would would have shown a TD.  The call on the field was correct.  The replay official botched the call and that comes from Mike Pereira former head of NFL officials.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:11 PM | By the way, regarding Mike Pereira (Score:2)
oakapple
Joined: 02/06/2009
MGoPoints: 1188

He also thinks that the Junior Hemingway non-TD call vs. Iowa was correct. (To be precise: he thought the call on the field could have gone either way, and once it was ruled incomplete, the booth official did not have the evidence to overturn him.) I think Pereira is a pretty good guy, but people seem to forget that after the Iowa game he thought the officials got it right.

Regarding the Fitz TD, we now know (thanks to the above diary) that he, in fact, didn’t score. And I think fair-minded fans should not want a TD that didn’t, in fact, happen.

The question whether evidence is irrefutable is itself a judgment call upon which reasonable minds can differ. I am not going to get too upset at an official making a call that turns out, upon detailed analysis, to have been factually correct, even if there is no way he could actually have had that analysis available to him at the time.

Marc Shepherd
New York, NY

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:13 PM | I'm not sure I understand (Score:1)
chally
Joined: 11/25/2008
MGoPoints: 264

I'm not sure I understand your comment.  The point of this diary entry is proving that the call on the field was incorrect, and that Fitz was in fact down short of the goal line.  The person above is simply saying that it is better that the final result (no TD) matched the facts (no TD), even though the replay official was wrong to overturn the initial incorrect call on such inconclusive evidence.  Yes, the replay official botched the call, but reached the correct outcome in doing so.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 2:32 PM | the looming problem for me.. (Score:1)
MSHOT92
MSHOT92's picture
Joined: 02/07/2011
MGoPoints: 179

is that in the ohio game, right, wrong, or indifferent, the replay official used conflicting evidence to overturn a call, and in the end it meant nothing...however in the Iowa game, a smiliar, and in my mind VERY refutable play...they did NOT overturn the call and we lost...so how can one call be overturned and the other isn't? live by the sword or die by it...thus as I've also always stated, we should never be in a position that a judgement call determines the outcome if we really deserved it...aka Nebraska...so take away the last touchdown on a crapola call...would it have mattered in the least? NOPE. And thanks for the breakdown, as many have said, this seems quite simple and you'd sure think they have the technology to make reviews better/more accurate.

 

and this was a pretty cool link that kind of demonstrates the two camera theory...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq3MyjDS1co&feature=related

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:34 AM | Tremendous (Score:3 Normal)
MGoPork
MGoPork's picture
Joined: 08/30/2010
MGoPoints: 140

This is mgoblog fergodsakes!

For the strength of the pack is the Wolv, and the strength of the Wolv is the pack.

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 11:57 AM | Is anyone else... (Score:3 Normal)
chitown.victor
chitown.victor's picture
Joined: 10/09/2009
MGoPoints: 494

...ready for the, "Pylon Cam?"  There are helmet cams, suspended cams, goalpost cams, cameras in the dirt (baseball), etc.  I mean, I know it is really only a matter of time until there are tiny microchips and sensors all over the football and alarms will sound once the ball crosses the plane, but until then, I vote for Pylon Cam.

And great work, WolverineBlue.  That was quite impressive and fun to read.

"One man. Goodbye! Hello Heisman!"

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:23 PM | Huyge-cam (Score:1)
tubauberalles
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 1000

I think the pylon mounted cam would have shown a great view of Huyge's knee/thigh and been even less useful in determining the ball's position.  The football's position, I mean, not Huyge's.

 

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:56 PM | If an alarm sounded every time (Score:1)
oHOWiHATEohioSTATE
Joined: 11/22/2010
MGoPoints: 1064

the ball crossed the goal line there would be a lot of meaningless buzzers

If an OSU fan divorces his wife are they still brother and sister?

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:25 PM | Thanks for cranking out the calcs. (Score:1)
smotheringD
Joined: 09/15/2010
MGoPoints: 182

You combined two of my favorite things, math and Michigan football.

Reminds me of the extra credit problem we were given in calculus to find the height of a dodecahedron in terms of one of it's sides...great fun.

"Everything in Defense starts with delivering a blow."

- Greg Mattison

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:31 PM | well done (Score:2)
blueloosh
blueloosh's picture
Joined: 10/26/2008
MGoPoints: 780

Excellent analysis, excellent post.  Thanks!

  • Login or register to post comments
December 22nd, 2011 at 12:59 PM | Impressive work (Score:1)
zander
zander's picture
Joined: 01/12/2011
MGoPoints: 84

I referred this blog post to my son ( recently accepted by  the M engineering program) as an example of the value an M degree would confer.

  • Login or register to post comments
  • 1
  • 2
  • next ›
  • last »
Powered by Drupal, an open source content management system
Theme provided by Roopletheme; sidebars adapted from Chris Murphy.