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Third Down Numbers and Other Stats

By formerlyanonymous — October 12th, 2009 at 2:15 AM — 9 comments
Filed under:
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There's been plenty said on just how bad the third down defense has been, and I thought I'd chronicle that for you. For starters, our NCAA rank is currently #66 out of 120 FBS teams when it comes to overall defensive 3rd down conversion percentage (how often the opposing offense succeeds). We are listed at 38.78% with 38 conversions in 98 attempts.

From going over box scores, I found only 97, so note that discrepancy now. I'm not worried about one missing right now. Also worth noting, I used ESPN's box scores, not Brian's UFRs. So that may cause discrepancy if you go back and check plays there.

I'm not going to offer much more than interesting stats in this. I'll let you guys draw your own conclusions and leave them in the comments. Any thoughts or explanations are welcome.

So let's take a look at the different third down plays the defense has gone up against by yardage:

Yards To Go Conversions Attempts Percentage
1 8 13 61.54%
2 3 10 30.00%
3 4 9 44.44%
4 2 5 40.00%
5 3 12 25.00%
6 8 12 66.67%
7 2 2 100.00%
8 2 8 25.00%
10 3 12 25.00%
11 0 3 0.00%
12 1 1 100.00%
13 0 1 0.00%
15 0 3 0.00%
16 0 1 0.00%
18 1 1 100.00%
19 0 1 0.00%
23 0 2 0.00%
24 1 1 100.00%
TOTAL 38 97 39.18%

There's obviously a couple outliers out there. The 3rd and 18/24 plays against MSU and Iowa respectively definitely throw a wrench in the numbers. The number that is the most disturbing, though, has to the 3rd and 6 metric. Let's take a slightly closer look at that:

Opponent Down Distance Pass/Run Yards Note
WMU 3 6 pass 23 Fly play where a blanketing Warren dives and WR comes up with it
EMU 3 6 rush 13 Brown misreads zone read with running qb
EMU 3 6 pass 12 Umbrella coverage, missed tackle
EMU 3 6 rush -4 2nd team scrubs were in
Indiana 3 6 rush 0 Rollout pass turned scramble for no gain.
Indiana 3 6 pass 18 3-man rush, as hit, throws skinny post against Mouton for 15 yards
MSU 3 6 pass 0 Stevie Brown Interception
MSU 3 6 pass 9 Crossing under routes confuses our LBs
MSU 3 6 pass 15 Woolfolk stares down QB in man coverage instead of WR. Misses route. Misses tackle to allow 1st
MSU 3 6 pass 0 Blitz house, man open but thrown wide
IOWA 3 6 pass 10 Curl short of the two guys we have deep on that side. Warren backed off presnap.
IOWA 3 6 pass 33 Pumpfake by Stanzi to a laid out Stross on a fly-ish route.

Other than that pick and the four yard TFL against EMU by the scrubs, that's horrid. It doesn't seem to be laid squarely on blitzing too many, umbrella coverage, or anything in particular.

When you throw in those really long conversions, it looks pretty ugly. So what do you have to compare these numbers to? I've got two things. Brian did some extensive DIY Third Down Efficiency studies during the first few years of his blog, something he hopes to return to in the future, IIRC. There you can see that the normal conversion rate on a 3rd and 1 is ~68% (2007 statistics I believe). Michigan is outdoing that by about 7% on defense.

As you move down that trend line, however, you can see Michigan starts to approximate that line really quickly, then the extremely long conversions start to skew the results.

Also, we can look at how Michigan has done against opposing defenses.

Yards To Go Conversions Attempts Percentages
1 7 8 87.50%
2 6 9 66.67%
3 4 8 50.00%
4 5 7 71.43%
5 1 6 16.67%
6 1 3 33.33%
7 2 4 50.00%
8 3 7 42.86%
9 2 5 40.00%
10 1 7 14.29%
11 1 6 16.67%
12 1 4 25.00%
13 0 3 0.00%
14 0 2 0.00%
15 0 3 0.00%
16 0 1 0.00%
18 0 1 0.00%
21 0 1 0.00%
TOTAL 34 85 40.00%

As you can see, Michigan is doing much more poorly on offense when it comes to converting on third down. That said, we're also much better on converting on short yardage. When we get within 4 yards, we've got a very high percentage chance of converting.

Going back to the D for a minute, one of the other problems I'm noticing is how much worse we are on 1st and 2nd down. I'm not sure of too many metrics to gauge this, so I thought about a way to get a decent metric on this. While the standard 3 yards per play average will be fairly successful, it's probably not the best way to describe how successful you are. I decided to go with an arbitrary metric of half the distance needed instead. So, for example, if it's 1st and 10, 5 yards would be considered a successful pick up. So on a 2nd and 5, a 2.5 yard pick up would leave you with 3rd and 2 or 3. I would argue if you're able to do this, you'd probably be slightly more successful than just averaging three yards per snap.

I'll admit this metric is just my opinion, and I welcome ideas for a better way to measure success on 1st and 2nd down.

So with my metric in mind, here's the type of stats I'm seeing.


1st Down

2nd Down


Attempts Successful Attempts Successful
Passing 75 36 71 37
Rushing 102 38 67 38
Sacks 4 - 2 -
Total 181 74 140 75

While Michigan does a decent job of stopping a team on 1st down, about 40.9%, second downs, Michigan is quite a bit worse on second down, around 53.8%. This is understandable as you generally need less yardage on 2nd down while still getting about the same number of yards. To explain, Michigan averages a 1st and 10.38 and gives up an average of 5.807 yards. Meanwhile, one second down, they average 2nd and 8.41 and give up an average of 5.629. The opposing team gains between 5-6 yards per play [ed. -cringe] on both first and second downs, while in my metric, they should need less.

I guess, if anything is good news, on third down, we face an average of 3rd and 6.56 and hold an average of 5.18 yards per play, over half a yard less per play than 1st or 2nd down.

I'll probably be playing with these stats a bit more in the next few days. Unfortunately, most of my stats don't involve personnel, so that complicates things. 

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October 12th, 2009 at 7:16 AM | Giving Up Big Plays (Score:1)
matt D
Joined: 11/08/2008
MGoPoints: 250

on 3rd down is absolutely killing us. We are rated 45th in the country in terms of pass efficiency defense, and 61st in the country in terms of completion percentage. That being said, we're 96th in the country in terms of overall passing yards allowed, that's a huge discrepancy, and while I don't have the numbers, I don't think it's a huge stretch to say that the huge passing gains allowed on 3rd down are responsible for that discrepancy. The stats below

http://www.thespread.com/index.php?option=com_statfeed&page=cfb/defstats...

http://web1.ncaa.org/football/exec/rankingSummary?year=2009&org=418

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October 12th, 2009 at 8:53 AM | Pick-6 D Warren (Score:1)
MH20
MH20's picture
Joined: 10/30/2008
MGoPoints: 7575

That was the Iowa game, not MSU.

Also, that play was on 2nd down.

The Yahoo drive log shows that "Brandon Moore" intercepted Stanzi...um, okay, Yahoo.

Edit: I think I figured out that first MSU 3-and-6. You mean Stevie Brown's interception of Cousins, no?

"The difference between a man and a boy is, a boy wants to grow up to be a fireman, but a man wants to grow up to be a giant monster fireman."

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October 12th, 2009 at 9:02 AM | Yeah, it originally said MSU, (Score:1)
formerlyanonymous
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Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 13958

Yeah, it originally said MSU, then I went back and changed it for some reason. I think I saw INT on my list and confused myself. That's what I get for doing this after my bed time. To be fixed in a second.

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October 12th, 2009 at 9:11 AM | Very interesting diary, FA. (Score:1)
Blue Durham
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Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 985

I think this problem in defending 3rd down (relative to the norm), particularly 3rd and long, has been a problem for Michigan for a number of years now.

I think this can be trace back to poor safety play and linebackers who have great difficulty in coverage. The approach often is to rush 3, maybe 4 and try to defend receivers with more guys.

But this approach only allows for Graham to be more easily neutralized. IME, if you have problems with your coverage guys, the solution should not be to have more of them on the field, but to ensure that there is pressure on the QB. Not a jailhouse, 7 guy rush; but at least 4-5 guys rushing the QB on every 3rd and 3 or more. Less time to throw (rather than more guys on the field, who if could cover, would already be on the field) will help minimize the coverage problems.

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October 12th, 2009 at 10:12 AM | Very good post...this needs to stop... (Score:1)
TSS
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Joined: 09/21/2009
MGoPoints: 1340

This has got to be bullet number one for the D this week. I do think we were more aggressive, I would hate to see Mich step it down to address this. Basically Williams and Kovacs (or the Safety of the moment) need to man up with Woolfolk at CB (though some of this bleeding is on Woolfolk as safety.)

As for the O ... pls don't go back to last year wrt turnovers.

Nice data driven diary. Thanks.

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October 12th, 2009 at 10:28 AM | Thanks for crunching these (Score:1)
MGrad
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Joined: 08/13/2009
MGoPoints: 253

Thanks for crunching these numbers. There really isn't a lot of positive to glean from it, as it contains about 50% games against weaker opponents (certainly at least 1/3).

Giving up the big plays on a regular basis has been frustrating. Before the season, observers were noting how the offense was picking up big plays against the defense in practice. There were many who wondered if it was a positive for the O or a neg to the D. It seems to be a bit of both. Unfortunately, we've seen that carry over against opposition.

Teams attack both between the hashes and edge of the D successfully, which points to large issues like speed and football-driven playmakers.

I said this before, but it seems like for this season, the defense consists of a stout line, a good corner, and several thousand prayers before each snap that the other 6 can not be exploited. There is a lot of scheme gambling going on to try to stop opponents, since M generally isn't winning the one-on-one battles for those 6.

It's going to be an interesting season the rest of the way. It seems like Michigan is going to be a bit like Illinois of last year, where it has to find ways to outscore the Big Ten to get those wins. It's a very foreign place for Michigan to find itself, but critical that M gets it done to preserve recruiting momentum for the reloading underway.

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October 12th, 2009 at 11:00 AM | Thought on 3rd down conversions (Score:1)
cps2010
Joined: 08/08/2009
MGoPoints: 3747

I am not satisfied with 40% conversion rate for our offense, although I would like to see us get 70%. However, I am not unhappy with 40%. On defense, my instinct tells me we are better off on 3rd and short than in any other situation b/c it will most likely be a run. Defensively, the goal is to hold the opponent to 25% on 3rd down.

Having said all that, our conversion percentages aren't the main problem. Sorry about not being able to do a chart, but:

M 6/16 37.5% WMU 5/14 35.7%
M 5/14 35.7% ND 6/14 42.9%
M 5/11 45.5% EMU 8/19 42.1%
M 9/17 52.9% IU 3/15 20.0%
M 7/16 43.8% MSU 8/18 44.4%
M 3/11 27.3% UI 8/18 44.4%

As you can see, the 3rd down battle is key. Only in the ND game did we lose that battle and win the game, and I think we can all agree that if Jabba runs the ball late in the game on 2nd and 3rd down, we lose. Also note that despite being outgained by 95 yards and losing the turnover battle against Indiana, it was our ability to outplay Indiana on 3rd down that won us that game, particularly defensive stops in the red zone.

While we want to have good percentages in and of themselves, the real goal is to out-convert our opponents each game.

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October 12th, 2009 at 11:26 AM | talent vs scheme (Score:1)
Kilgore Trout
Kilgore Trout's picture
Joined: 02/20/2009
MGoPoints: 1863

So I had a lot more written on this, but the preview button didn't work and all of my writing disappeared...

Anyway a few points.

1. Might as well throw the third and sevens in with this. It's essentially the same thing.

2. I think the biggest issue with this defense is talent and experience, not scheme. Last year was a fright of three man rushes and 15 yard cushions. Not to say that hasn't happened this year, but not at the rate it was (in my observation at least). I think this defensive scheme is a lot more solid and a lot more sensible than what they've run the last few years and I feel good that when the talent and experience are there, this will work out fine and be a strength of the team. The idea of having someone who half DB and half LB and another that is half LB and half DL is brilliant in my opinion and gives you the flexibilty to adjust to everything that offenses throw at you these days without getting caught running people in and out of the game.

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October 12th, 2009 at 12:04 PM | 1) Agreed. 2) I think, if (Score:1)
formerlyanonymous
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Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 13958

1) Agreed.

2) I think, if anything, these numbers help back up the idea that it's talent and not scheme causing the big plays. So I'm definitely thinking along the same lines. Most of those plays haven't been from the umbrella coverage, but rather a few dumb mistakes by our backs (which happen) and a couple really good plays. Our safety play amplifies the bad.

Co-sign the hybrid position comments as well.

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