Spread Run Game Nuances
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[Editor's note: bumped. My favorite point in this is the reason you run the Illinois-style veer where the running back heads outside and the QB goes upfield is that you can run it with the same QB-RB position you run the stretch from.]
There seems to be some confusion/questions floating around about our run game, and spread run game in general, so I think some enlightenment is in order.
First, the basic outside zone read. The offensive line's basic objective is to reach block to the gap toward the playside. If you're an offensive lineman, you reach any defensive lineman in your gap toward the playside. If there is no defensive lineman to reach, climb to LB level.
In the zone read play, the QB reads the backside end and determines if he is chasing the RB or not. If the DE is chasing, the QB pulls the ball and runs away from the box. If the DE isn't chasing, the QB hands the ball to the RB. The RB is to run toward the perimeter while reading the playside DE. If the DE gets reached, the RB continues outside. If the DE maintains outside leverage, the RB cuts inside of him.
To stop the outside zone, defenses: a) get penetration, b) fast flow to the playside, and c) maintain gap discipline; i.e., stay in their gap. If all you do is outside zone, defenses get pretty good at this. (Attn: Mike DeBord)
To take advantage of defenses that do this, inside veer principles from traditional triple option offense was incorporated. Here's the inside veer out of the double slot (aka flex bone), what Paul Johnson of Georgia Tech runs. (Aside: studied this offense while he was winning 1-AA titles at Georgia Southern, where he was prior to Navy.)
This is inside veer to the left. The playside OT veers inside the defensive end and blocks anything in the B gap and combo blocks with the OG to the Mike or Inside Backer. If there's no DL in the B gap, the OT climbs right to the Backer, as shown above. The OG will combo with either the OT (if there's a DL in the B gap) or the C (if there's a DL in the A gap) on that DL to the Mike or Inside Backer.
Okay, here's where it gets fun. To take advantage of fast-flowing, gap-sound defensive technique, the spread offense will run its version of veer by running inside veer blocking on the backside of the zone play, thus creating a "zone side" and a "veer side."
Notice how the QB is now in front of the RB so the RB can be downhill, as opposed to outside on the zone play. Defenses picked up this nuance, and could tell whether we were running the zone play or the veer play. Our solution to this against Illinois was to run veer with an "opp read," where the RB and QB basically switch roles. In doing this, we could run the veer play w/o changing the alignment of the QB and RB to do so:
Run-oriented spread guys are basically option guys who have found a way to appease fans and boosters by putting a lot of WRs on the field and still being able to run option. Urban Meyer has repeatedly said he'd run wishbone option if he could but it wouldn't sell tickets nor lure top-notch recruits.
Here's another option incorporation: the midline. In traditional inside veer, the offensive objective is to read two defenders and cut off the rest from the perimeter. In response, defenses would stop it by assigning one guy to the dive, one guy to the QB, one guy to the pitch, and sending the rest of the defense toward the flow of the play, hoping to get to the flank and kill the key cog--the QB. The offensive answer to defenders flying outside to kill the QB was the midline, so named b/c the dive goes right down the midline of the formation, or right up the center's butt crack.
Instead of reading the DE for give/pull, the QB now reads the 3 technique DT. If the 3 technique closes to take the FB, the QB pulls and starts down the line as if to take the ball to the perimeter. Instead, he follows a lead blocker up into the B gap.
Now let's take a look at the incorporation of this option principle into the spread offense. Like the spread veer, the spread midline runs the zone play to the playside, and the midline on the backside. Notice how this play is dirty b/c the defense can't play games with its backside DE since the offense isn't even reading him. This play is exactly like the regular zone read with one exception, the backside OT. And when the QB pulls the ball, the defense expects the QB to take the ball to the perimeter. This way the spread offense fools the defense much in the same way the traditional option offense does: trick the defense into thinking the QB is going to the perimeter when he's really going inside.
(Ignore the bubble routes; copied from a previous post.)
Having fun?
Questions welcome.
(At some point after the season it might be fun to have a get-together and have a chalk talk. mgochalktalk?)
There seems to be some confusion/questions floating around about our run game, and spread run game in general, so I think some enlightenment is in order.
First, the basic outside zone read. The offensive line's basic objective is to reach block to the gap toward the playside. If you're an offensive lineman, you reach any defensive lineman in your gap toward the playside. If there is no defensive lineman to reach, climb to LB level.
In the zone read play, the QB reads the backside end and determines if he is chasing the RB or not. If the DE is chasing, the QB pulls the ball and runs away from the box. If the DE isn't chasing, the QB hands the ball to the RB. The RB is to run toward the perimeter while reading the playside DE. If the DE gets reached, the RB continues outside. If the DE maintains outside leverage, the RB cuts inside of him.
To stop the outside zone, defenses: a) get penetration, b) fast flow to the playside, and c) maintain gap discipline; i.e., stay in their gap. If all you do is outside zone, defenses get pretty good at this. (Attn: Mike DeBord)
To take advantage of defenses that do this, inside veer principles from traditional triple option offense was incorporated. Here's the inside veer out of the double slot (aka flex bone), what Paul Johnson of Georgia Tech runs. (Aside: studied this offense while he was winning 1-AA titles at Georgia Southern, where he was prior to Navy.)
This is inside veer to the left. The playside OT veers inside the defensive end and blocks anything in the B gap and combo blocks with the OG to the Mike or Inside Backer. If there's no DL in the B gap, the OT climbs right to the Backer, as shown above. The OG will combo with either the OT (if there's a DL in the B gap) or the C (if there's a DL in the A gap) on that DL to the Mike or Inside Backer.
Okay, here's where it gets fun. To take advantage of fast-flowing, gap-sound defensive technique, the spread offense will run its version of veer by running inside veer blocking on the backside of the zone play, thus creating a "zone side" and a "veer side."
Notice how the QB is now in front of the RB so the RB can be downhill, as opposed to outside on the zone play. Defenses picked up this nuance, and could tell whether we were running the zone play or the veer play. Our solution to this against Illinois was to run veer with an "opp read," where the RB and QB basically switch roles. In doing this, we could run the veer play w/o changing the alignment of the QB and RB to do so:
Run-oriented spread guys are basically option guys who have found a way to appease fans and boosters by putting a lot of WRs on the field and still being able to run option. Urban Meyer has repeatedly said he'd run wishbone option if he could but it wouldn't sell tickets nor lure top-notch recruits.
Here's another option incorporation: the midline. In traditional inside veer, the offensive objective is to read two defenders and cut off the rest from the perimeter. In response, defenses would stop it by assigning one guy to the dive, one guy to the QB, one guy to the pitch, and sending the rest of the defense toward the flow of the play, hoping to get to the flank and kill the key cog--the QB. The offensive answer to defenders flying outside to kill the QB was the midline, so named b/c the dive goes right down the midline of the formation, or right up the center's butt crack.
Instead of reading the DE for give/pull, the QB now reads the 3 technique DT. If the 3 technique closes to take the FB, the QB pulls and starts down the line as if to take the ball to the perimeter. Instead, he follows a lead blocker up into the B gap.
Now let's take a look at the incorporation of this option principle into the spread offense. Like the spread veer, the spread midline runs the zone play to the playside, and the midline on the backside. Notice how this play is dirty b/c the defense can't play games with its backside DE since the offense isn't even reading him. This play is exactly like the regular zone read with one exception, the backside OT. And when the QB pulls the ball, the defense expects the QB to take the ball to the perimeter. This way the spread offense fools the defense much in the same way the traditional option offense does: trick the defense into thinking the QB is going to the perimeter when he's really going inside.
(Ignore the bubble routes; copied from a previous post.)
Having fun?
Questions welcome.
(At some point after the season it might be fun to have a get-together and have a chalk talk. mgochalktalk?)
This is great stuff. I hope to see more of these in the future.
This was super informative, a little confusing at times but I love posts like these.
I have always thought that the best case scenario for a spread offense was a passing QB who could run (think Steve Young) rather than a running QB who can pass (think Vince Young). I thought it would open up more opportunities to diversify the offense and keep the defense honest.
But when I watch the highlights of WVU or learn about the nuances of these plays from these types of posts I worry a little about someone like Tate (quick instead of fast, small, etc.) being able to run it effectively as it was used in the past.
Can you talk about what options open up in the passing game from these types of plays? How can the fact that Tate's a good passer be used to enhance these types of plays?
AC-1997
In our offense, I think a great runner who can beat you with his arm is best. In any offense, you need a guy who can make throws on 3rd and long, however. In an offense like Oklahoma, Texas, or Texas Tech, a thrower who can beat you with his legs is best. Teams will do a lot of things coverage wise, and a QB who can scramble (think Vick as a Falcon) is dangerous. Then, if the D decides to assign a spy on the QB, that takes a guy out of coverage.
As far as passing plays off the spread option, there is an easy one. Ride, take two steps toward perimeter, then push back for a downfield throw. If we're in "Trio" formations (aka "Twins Open," which is 3 WRs and 2 RBs) the two WRs will run go routes and the slot will run to the middle seam. This is especially effective with aggressive safeties, as you would definitely see with Denard in the game.
Watching Michigan run the spread option offense the last two years, it still looks really, really slow to me. The progressions just seem slow. I guess this is a combination of youth and lack of self-trust with all of these reads, etc. The offensive line seems to be getting a little better at knowing it's assignments though.
Option football (wishbone, veer, option I) may not be as sexy anymore, but I find the finesse part of the attack, particularly with shifty quarterbacks, immensely satisfying to watch. Why? Well, it's fun watching defensive players being beaten by deception rather than raw brawn. Being fooled into running yourself completely out of position or into tackling the wrong freaking guy. That's entertainment.
My favorite part about option football occurs rarely. But when it does, man, it's like sipping a cup of hot cocoa heaped with marshmallows on a snowy day:
When the quarterback options a cornerback downfield with trailing tailback past the line of scrimmage with like no help behind the CB. Oh, That..is...AWESOME! TOUCH-DOWN!
Markusr2007
http://www.maizenbrew.com/
"Editor's note: bumped. My favorite point in this is the reason you run the Illinois-style veer where the running back heads outside and the QB goes upfield is that you can run it with the same QB-RB position you run the stretch from."
While I agree that not giving the play away by alignment is a good thing, I think what Illinois showed is that this play doesn't work from that alignment b/c:
a) the downhill player (QB) is getting the ball at 6 yards, not 4
b) the downhill player is not downhill at the mesh
c) because of a) and b) the read key (DE) has time to shuffle and induce a pull read and still be able to play the QB
So what's the solution? In my opinion, motion and movement at the snap. For example, as soon as the ball is snapped, Tate moves forward to catch it so he is in front of the RB. Or have the RB motion suddenly pre-snap to be in position to run the veer. Both of these are concepts other spread teams have incorporated to keep the defense honest.
I've learned a ton about the spread this year thanks to posts like this. Very much appreciated.
Off base question, but it's been bugging me for a while, and this post brought the issue back for me.
In the classic triple option - out of a wishbone or power I or what have you - the QB decides whether to hand off to the fullback on the dive. Then he runs parallel to the line of scrimmage. As I understand it, he reads the DE and decides whether to pitch or keep based on the play of the end. That is the story I recall from 25 (plus!) years back.
What started bugging me is the read on the first 'option' - the FB handoff. Does the QB have a choice there? And if so, what is he reading?
The dive read is the first DL head up over the playside OT or wider. The pitch read is the next outside defender. So the reads may or may not be defensive tackles, ends, or outside linebackers depending on the defensive formation (52, 43, 44, etc.).
Some coaches call give/keep, and then on the called keeps the QB can run w/it or pitch it. I think that is horse shit football.
As usual there's much more to a play than I understood, though your explanation is very clear. That's a very fast couple of reads for the QB, which I assume is why a coach might try to take that first responsibility away. As you note, it kind of spoils the point of running option football if the QB doesn't actually have an option!
great post, but not convinced this is ever what our run game will look. face it, tate can't run like pat white and i don't see anyone resembling slaton or devine on our roster except for maybe denard.
lager86
If Denard Robinson can learn the full playbook, which is likely given that he's had a full year in the system, he will be the QB next year. No offense to Tate Forcier, but you can't coach blazing speed, and this offense will be truly dangerous with a speed guy at QB. You haven't seen much from Denard this year because he is still learning the playbook and the coaching staff will only call for him what they feel comfortable he can understand. He'll have to come out passing to prove he can do it, but when he does, look out. I'll even go so far as to say you will see him play significant minutes in the OSU game and a bowl game if they make it. At this point, does Coach Rodriguez have anything to lose?
Why do you (and everyone) automatically assume that Tate is the QB? What if Denard passes him up? What about Devin Gardner? And as for RBs, we have Mike Shaw and Vincent Smith, plus a lot of other good RBs on the way. If you don't think we can recruit to the level of Pat White, Steve Slaton, and Noel Devine, you need to think again.
I think Tate will be the QB, but I don't understand everyones fascination with Slaton. We have currently and will have even more in the future explosive athletes like Slaton etc.. the reason why the explosive guys don't look all that great is that Tate and Denard are not making all of the correct reads and our Oline is only ok. Once the 2 come together....look out. I still believe Shaw and Smith if healthy will explode like a bomb on the big ten next year.
To expand on one of your earlier responses:
You mentioned if the DE turned his shoulders toward the RB, the QB kept it. My question is - What exactly is the QB reading on the DE? Understanding that there are certain defensive calls where the DE crashes or keeps contain, I'm asking where it is a true read play and the DE seems to pause when the QB and RB are at the mesh point. Is the first part of the read the QB watching the DE's eyes? feet? Shoulders as you said earlier?
Also - in a totally guess of an observation - it seems we are running more 1-back sets this year. Is this a natural progression of the offense or maybe Injury influenced?
Thanks!
I NEED QUESO! QUESOOOOO!!
"My question is - What exactly is the QB reading on the DE? Understanding that there are certain defensive calls where the DE crashes or keeps contain, I'm asking where it is a true read play and the DE seems to pause when the QB and RB are at the mesh point. Is the first part of the read the QB watching the DE's eyes? feet? Shoulders as you said earlier?"
From 2000 (when we were a Paul Johnson-esque option team) all the way to the present day, we had our QBs read the shoulders of the DE. He has to turn them down the LOS in order to properly chase. If he hasn't turned them by the time the RB gets to the front hip of the QB, the QB is to give the ball. When in doubt, give. (Although some of the "when in doubt" rules can change from scheme to scheme or depending on the player. So, if the DE isn't committed on Pat White or Shoelace, it's a pull. Freedom in judgment comes with experience and trust.)
"Also - in a totally guess of an observation - it seems we are running more 1-back sets this year. Is this a natural progression of the offense or maybe Injury influenced?"
It's probably because we have more dependable slots and TEs than last year, when we had mostly dependable RBs (McGuffie, Brown, Minor, Shaw). Regardless of personnel, it becomes a philosophical/strategic choice. Once you bring more guys into the backfield, the defense can bring more guys into the box. As a DC, I don't give a shit if the QB is in the gun; two RBs is two RBs. Now I can bring a safety into the box. So if the philosophy is to truly spread the field and make the opponent defend the entire field, only 1 RB is the way to go. If you want to still have a good pass threat (3 WRs) but have the ability to run zone reads and options either left or right, 2 RBs might be preferable. To give the defense more to think about, do some of both.
Is that where we see the toss? I.e. when the RB is in front of and to the right of the QB and could go left (in your diagream) for the veer play, could he instead go right for the zone play and get a pitch instead of a handoff?
Also, WTF kind of play was it when Tate pitched the ball to the other team?
Great post as usual, of course.
" The deceptive RB-in-front play; is that where we see the toss?"
The "toss" play can happen from any RB alignment.
"Also, WTF kind of play was it when Tate pitched the ball to the other team?" It was either outside zone triple or veer triple (I'm guessing veer). The triple comes with an extra RB in the backfield, one on each side. The play can now be run in either direction, so the QB checks the OL so that it is run at the 1 technique side (DT in the A gap). The RB to that side runs downhill on the veer and the other RB gets in pitch phase with the QB. We ran this once for a small gain in the first half (Tate missed the give read or the play was called that way--God I hope not) and then the same thing happened in the 2nd half that caused the fumble. Without reviewing it, I'd guess that Tate should've given, then tried to pitch off the DE, allowing the real pitch key (safety/OLB) to deflect the pitch and get the TO, totally changing the game.
This section of the diary,
"Run-oriented spread guys are basically option guys who have found a way to appease fans and boosters by putting a lot of WRs on the field and still being able to run option. Urban Meyer has repeatedly said he'd run wishbone option if he could but it wouldn't sell tickets nor lure top-notch recruits."
Brought me all the way back to the early 70's when I started watching Michigan football with my Dad. These were the days of Bo and Rick Leach, an option QB, and Bo famously stating his reason for not calling pass plays, "three things can happen when you pass, and two of those things are bad"
Didn't Lloyd specifically recruit and train Pro-Style Pocket Passers?
Is it possible that RR is more like Bo than Lloyd was?
A Bo for the modern era?
"That's all there is...there isn't anymore"
I have long felt this to be the case. RR's spread is a throwback to Bo in a lot of ways, with more of a pass option. I too got into Michigan football in the 70s with Leach and company. This is a more "sophisticated" version of Bo's offense, with more passing and ball handling, hence the turnovers with inexperienced players. It could be back to the future in that the run of quarterbacks to the NFL may slow or end - Henne may be the last for a while. This really is a whole new ballgame in more ways than one.
Let's beat Wisconsin.
I don't see him blocked. The playside OT is going to the LB. This is a read by the QB? I don't see how a good DE wouldn't just destroy this play.
The zone and veer get crushed if the defense slants toward the play, it would seem.
The team, the team, the team...
The DE can't possibly play both b/c the RB is downhill right now. If the DE doesn't turn his shoulders and crash down hard, he won't tackle the RB. And if he does, the QB pulls the ball and keeps.
As for it getting "crushed" by a slant, that's why the veer is best run to the 1 technique side. Even if the 1 technique tries to slant into the B gap, the guard should easily block him. And if the DL slants to the veer side, they are now susceptible to the outside zone play.
this is why I check this site, for quality posts like this.
The team, the team, the team...
Notice how the slightest step or two upfield by the DE makes it so he can't possibly tackle the dive. Then watch the very next play. The DE turns his shoulders to take the dive...so White pulls the ball and is off to the races. Also notice how the slot gets into pitch phase to make it triple option. Veer also run at 1:05 and 1:48.
Thanks Steve, this is great stuff. I confess I like almost any post that has Xs and Os drawn up but the explanations here are very helpful. Keep em coming.
Great, great post. I thought I new option football fairly well, but I learned a ton from this.
As to the experience of the QBs, I ran the "double option" wishbone for five years, and a "double-option" I for one as a QB. By "double-option," I mean the coach called the give or keep to the dive back, and we read the DE for the pitch. It really wasn't until my fourth year in the system - my sophomore year in high school - that I could do even this simple read in my sleep. This stuff is hard, and it takes many, many reps to become instinctual. To the poster who made the foreign language analogy, I think that's spot on. Tate just hasn't done it enough yet. He will, and he's smart, and he will be good, I suspect. But because of his inexperience, you're not seeing our running game function at it's highest possible output - not even close.
Now there's some hope for the future.
Practice time is an issue. If you're going to be good at the zone reads, you have to practice the crap out of it. This is why Michigan and Florida don't have complex passing games. Conversely, if you're going to have a complex passing game, you have to practice it, as well as all the pass pro schemes and checks, so option football is out the window. This is why Texas Tech and Oklahoma don't run the read plays.
If I had one wish, it would be for all the children of the world to live in peace and harmony.
If I had two wishes, one would be for all the children of the world to live in peace and harmony, and the second would be that all people who complained that RichRod should have gone with a pro-style offense in 2008 would have this response tacked to their genitals with a staple gun.
I think the mgofaithful must be becoming some of the best-informed / most increasingly knowledgeable CFB fans out there due to content like this.
Thanks, and keep it up - it helps make us better fans!
Thanks Steve. Very, very helpful.
Do you know if Tate ran any of this in high school? The only highlights I recall were of him throwing & scrambling.
Looking ahead, I've seen Gardner give and keep on what I thought was a zone. Any idea on how far along he is at making the right read?
I have no idea where he is at making reads. Even if he's relatively experienced for a HS player, those reads will have to happen exponentially quicker in college. College players will be able to make plays off of his reads that HS players can't, so his reads will have to be perfect, and even then the defender might be able to make the play.
I'm glad my ignorance could prompt such a benificial diary post.
Steve, I'm guessing you're some sort of coach. Just wondering, what level do you coach?
"And he we are in Columbus in front of a sellout crowd of 10,000 alumni and 74,000 truck drivers." --Bob Ufer
Was varsity DC and coached slot receivers for Milford HS in suburban Detroit. Milford is in Division 1, the largest classification, and plays in one of the better leagues in the state. We ran base G defense (90s Washington, current Va. Tech D) with some 3-4, 4-3, and 46 Bear defense on the side. We were a spread offense modeled after the Urban Meyer philosophy of the inside zone read + option, as well as power schemes and play action passes off of it, especially vertical seam routes and bootlegs. Additionally we mixed in some I formation and full house power I formation.
because he has to be the maestro of this orchestra to pull off these plays successfully and making the right read is critical, IMO. Despite crappy defense, we've gashed people in the run this year and I would expect we'd be even better in the years to come once we get the experience to install all of the offense and make the right reads.
Does the position of the RB vs. the QB give the defense any clues as to what play (zone read or veer) is likely to be run? If so, why not always line the RB up at the same depth as the QB?
And with these offenses, do LBs key off the backfield, or the type of block being executed by the center?
Wanting something to be true does not make it true.
"Does the position of the RB vs. the QB give the defense any clues as to what play (zone read or veer) is likely to be run? If so, why not always line the RB up at the same depth as the QB?"
Yes, but lining up the RB at the same depth will not allow the RB to be downhill at the mesh point on the veer. If the RB was parallel w/the QB, he would have to come to the mesh, plant and push to get downhill. The backside DE could wait to see who had the ball and be in a position to play both. What offenses have started to do in order to run the veer w/o giving it away is motion their RB just prior to the snap and have the QB step forward just after the snap.
"And with these offenses, do LBs key off the backfield, or the type of block being executed by the center?"
Most HS ILBs key guards b/c guards almost always take you to the football. Most college ILBs, however, key backs b/c there isn't the same amount of misdirection and pulling guards in college as HS. In HS football, some of the backs in a formation will go in a different direction than the OL (and especially the pulling guards) in order to influence the defense into being outflanked. In college football, teams that pull guards usually only do so for power schemes where all backs are going that way, too, so backs take them to the ball anyway. If I were coaching college, I would still have my ILBs key guards first b/c it's a quicker run/pass read. Most linemen don't fake, and the ones that do are the OTs. The only time linemen really fake is on screens, and they're mostly trying to fake out defensive linemen, not LBs. I've never heard of anyone keying the center.
It seems like you always get more information keying them.
...the Canadians make up for it with their emotion and classic ice-dancing skill.
Keying guards is really keying guards 1st, backs 2nd. Going straight to keying backs makes the reads faster. You're more vulnerable to play action that way, however, but I guess coaches leave it up to safeties and corners to take that away. What these coaches fail to realize is that DBs don't cover crossing routes unless they're in man. I personally prefer to key guards, and I have my safeties key OL, as well.
I think it may be time for a special diary tab called "Sharik" much like Tom's MGoBoard tab. Thanks for your contributions.
these graphic diagrams would be the perfect way to illustrate how they are supposed to progress. It would be a tremendous teaching aid for players and non-players alike.
You mean like this?
http://host.madison.com/app/interactive/clayTD/
I guess we can expect more of those after this weekend. Hopefully they won't highlight 72-yard TD runs by John Clay.
Number 20 takes angles like our safeties.
I just wanted to put my two cents in here. Steve can tell me if I am off base. Having played 2 years of HS FB, playbooks are like foreign languages. If you take a foreign language class in your teens, you tend to still think in English. So when you try to speak the language, you are translating word by word. IE, speaking in Russian but thinking in English. That is what my Russian prof said to me at least. And your speech is clunky. I see Tate doing the same thing. He is thinking his way thru his reads. They aren't instinctual yet. He is stepping his way thru the play instead of playing his way thru the play. That is why he is just a second or so too slow with his read. It takes practice. It takes time. Williams has been doing this for 4 years at Illinois. Clark has been doing it for 3 years at Penn State. Tate and Denard will get there. It is the same problem I see with Pryor by the way. He's stepping thru the play's options like a robot.
Thats ridiculously informative.
"Wow, so you go to Michigan, so you can spell, good for you." - white_pony_rocks