RRod Recruiting
Michigan's 2010 recruiting class clarifies the debate about whether Rodriguez will go after higher-ranked recruits now that he's at Michigan. Brian has already documented our program's "natural" prediction for "tweeners," players who don't fit neatly into the ranking services categories, and thus draw lower star ratings. But I think the issue goes beyond that
- Michigan's midwest recruiting base has not been Rodriguez' territory during his tenure at West Virginia, Tulane, etc. Here, he's competing not only against MSU for state recruits, but against the perennial challenge of pulling recruits from Ohio against OSU's turf. He has some leverage against Pennsylvania, perhaps, and some against Ohio because of his stint at West Virginia, but overall he will not find many 5 or 4 stars in the Midwest.
- Rodriguez' preference for the spread-option scheme inevitably pushes him to recruit in talent-rich southern states, in Texas, and in California. These areas, like the Midwest, feature powerful programs that draw the highest rank recruits, leaving our program to fight for those not committed to LSU, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Florida, USC, Texas, UCLA, Cal, etc. Drawing 4 and 5 star recruits to Ann Arbor from the south and west has always been a staple of Michigan recruiting, and will continue under Rodriguez. But it will not increase significantly under Rich Rod unless he shifts his balance from emphasizing "scheme" to "raw talent regardless of scheme." He won't do that.
- Compared to other high-profile coaches, Rodriguez strikes me as more doctrinaire. Oddly enough, Bo, Mo, and Lloyd were more willing to try different offensive schemes during their careers. Among current coaches at established powerhouses, Tressel, Carroll, Saban, Meyer, Stoops, Mack, Meyer, Miles, etc. strike me as more adaptable, more flexible than Rodriguez. Put simply, it is impossible to talk about Rodriguez as a coach without immediately jumping into his success with the spread. But it is possible to talk about some of the best of his peers without identifying a single offensive scheme. Were the spread to become the pros preferred offensive scheme, I think we would double the number of 4 and 5 star recruits. Until that happens, college coaches who continue to be more flexible in offensive philosophy will probably draw more of the higher ranked recruits, because there will be more opportunities for larger, less nimble players, players with great talent but not well-suited to the spread.
- Michigan's midwest recruiting base has not been Rodriguez' territory during his tenure at West Virginia, Tulane, etc. Here, he's competing not only against MSU for state recruits, but against the perennial challenge of pulling recruits from Ohio against OSU's turf. He has some leverage against Pennsylvania, perhaps, and some against Ohio because of his stint at West Virginia, but overall he will not find many 5 or 4 stars in the Midwest.
- Rodriguez' preference for the spread-option scheme inevitably pushes him to recruit in talent-rich southern states, in Texas, and in California. These areas, like the Midwest, feature powerful programs that draw the highest rank recruits, leaving our program to fight for those not committed to LSU, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Florida, USC, Texas, UCLA, Cal, etc. Drawing 4 and 5 star recruits to Ann Arbor from the south and west has always been a staple of Michigan recruiting, and will continue under Rodriguez. But it will not increase significantly under Rich Rod unless he shifts his balance from emphasizing "scheme" to "raw talent regardless of scheme." He won't do that.
- Compared to other high-profile coaches, Rodriguez strikes me as more doctrinaire. Oddly enough, Bo, Mo, and Lloyd were more willing to try different offensive schemes during their careers. Among current coaches at established powerhouses, Tressel, Carroll, Saban, Meyer, Stoops, Mack, Meyer, Miles, etc. strike me as more adaptable, more flexible than Rodriguez. Put simply, it is impossible to talk about Rodriguez as a coach without immediately jumping into his success with the spread. But it is possible to talk about some of the best of his peers without identifying a single offensive scheme. Were the spread to become the pros preferred offensive scheme, I think we would double the number of 4 and 5 star recruits. Until that happens, college coaches who continue to be more flexible in offensive philosophy will probably draw more of the higher ranked recruits, because there will be more opportunities for larger, less nimble players, players with great talent but not well-suited to the spread.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:04 PM ^
Snuffaluffagus? He fucks my shit UP!
August 17th, 2009 at 2:54 PM ^
You're so right! Ever since Urban Meyer brought the spread to Gainesville, Florida's program has been terrible. They can't get any good recruits, and the results on the field have been horrible. They should fire that idiot. The spread sucks!
August 17th, 2009 at 3:21 PM ^
While you are being ripped with the usual responses that any questioning of Rodriguez gets, let me add a few things.
First, I believe you are correct in assuming that Rodriguez is "doctrinaire." He runs the spread, and the spread only. We have heard that for a year now. Some of us axed "Why didn't he use a different, or maybe more pro style offense last year" Well, most of the time people said, "HEY! He is a SPREAD COACH! What the hell is he 'posed to do?" Rodriguez does not adapt. UM will play spread, and he will only (even according to his supporters) recruit Spread athletes. THAT'S why UM's classes will be rife with lower-rated recruits (or so his most arduous supporters will tell us): only HE knows who and what he needs, and only HE can spot the talent that only HE knows will work.
Second: You are being told that Rodriguez won with "inferior" talent. That is, with the notable exception of two BCS bowl games, rubbish. Rodriguez did not have "inferior" talent when compared to the other teams in his conference and the typically weak non conference schedule he faced. Are you telling me that West Virginia had a weaker talent level than teams like Connecticut or Rutgers or Pitt? I don't think so and it's simply not true.
Third: What is truly laughable is that people will argue that we should recruit players who "fit" Rodriuez's offense and those players won't be highly ranked. Yet, when they get to Michigan, UM fans start plugging them into holes on the depth chart. Witness Denard Robinson. People are saying he can play Quarterback, running back, slot, cornerback--FOUR positions. YET, Rodriguez HAS to recruit spread type players? Top-end talent can't be adapted into Rodriguez's offense? He can't go out and recruit highly ranked players who "don't fit" his scheme? With the exception of big, road grading offensive linemen and 6'5 dropback passers, I disagree.
Anyway, Laura, if your assertion is that Rodriguez is going to have a tough go of it and won't succeed, I disagree. If you are asserting that maybe he should adjust and recruit TALENT and then work with it, I agree. Again, certain players, it is true, simply won't work, but I agree that for the most part talent is talent and it can work even with the Super Secret Spread Offense that ONLY Rodriguez knows.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:23 PM ^
Come on, just start calling out TDoR in their treefort, we know you want to. Just get it over already.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:58 PM ^
Lemme tell you something about my forecast for the potential of great success for Rodriguez at Michigan.
I do NOT think he will win at Michigan with West Virginia type talent. I do NOT think he came to Michigan to recruit that type of player. He came here, IMO, to recruit much better and to mix better talent with his scheme and contend on an annual basis for Big Ten and national championships.
I also believe that he does have a good eye for so-called dimaonds in the rough and will continue to bring those guys in (like most programs do). He honed that skill at West Virginia, it is a good skill, and it will benefit him during his tenure here. But I don't believe for one second that DIR guys will be his foundation. He will go after top talent and, like everyone else, get his share--and win with it. I don't pigeon hole him into a box of "the guy who wins with inferior spread talent only"--anyone who believes that he will win big at UM with lower-rated recruiting classes is deceiving themselves.
It's obvious this offense requires a dual threat QB and as I've said so many times, the Dann O'Neills of the world probably don't fit. But beyond that and the need for speedy midgets at slot, talent is talent and it can be brought into Michigan to fit this offense. I feel great coaches do this or they, quite frankly, aren't great coaches.
I disagree with Laura on her assertion that Rodriguez is recruiting in areas he is unfamiliar with. He knows Ohio and Pennsylvania, the midwest, and has always recruited in the south as well. He came to Michigan to exploit the national recruiting rep and I think he will.
And sorry, but I don't want to hear about 3-9 hurting recruiting. New facilities, a newer Big House, Michigan itself, and a guy who is pretty much perceived, nationally, as a very good, youngish, and dynamic coach all mean to me that the apathetic excuse making is lame.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:09 PM ^
I think we could have a good conversation about RRod. Appreciate the thoughtful answer and hope you are right about his ability to bring in diamonds in the rough. Hi carat polished talent too.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:18 PM ^
But I feel that you will be neg-banged into oblivion, as the masses will penalize you mercilessly for questioning Rodriguez.
August 18th, 2009 at 1:20 AM ^
scooter.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:14 PM ^
...he could win BCS bowl games w/WVU talent but couldn't win in the Big Ten with it?
And, you seriously think that all the negative publicity from just one 3-9 season hasn't hurt our recruiting? That's just nieve.
I obviously don't believe that WVU talent is what he's after, but he can win with it in the meantime until our recruiting prowess gets back to where it was (which won't take long), or even higher.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:24 PM ^
You want to hang your hat on two bowl games? Really? WVU came out on fire against Georgia and surprised the shit out of them, and held on for a 38-35 victory. Then they bombed Oklahoma (RR talent, but no RR on the sidelines)--an unmotivated Oklahoma team--you know bowl games are weird affairs and are about motivation and matchups.
But he did NOT win in the Big East with inferior talent--I don't see why that is so hard for people to accept. He dominated that conference with comparable or better talent and his better coaching, gameplanning, and conditioning.
If RR gets comparable talent to what PSU and OSU get, he'll dominate the Big Ten and beyond. That's my argument.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:50 PM ^
Dear King,
I think I struck a nerve in the herd. Appreciate your thoughtful comments.
Interesting that the great compact majority did disagree with my example of Bo, Mo, and Lloyd trying different schemes.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:00 PM ^
I don't think you struck a nerve because you wrote something that is true and we just don't want to hear it. You struck a nerve because you're making points that either a) you have no evidence for or b) have already been disproven.
Examples:
He has some leverage against Pennsylvania, perhaps, and some against Ohio because of his stint at West Virginia, but overall he will not find many 5 or 4 stars in the Midwest.We've seen two Rich Rodriguez recruiting classes total. A class that was partially filled by Carr, one full class, and the upcoming class that is currently partially full as well. None of these show his full potential, as he hasn't been able to recruit by saying, "Look, I'm winning at Michigan, come play for me."
But it will not increase significantly under Rich Rod unless he shifts his balance from emphasizing "scheme" to "raw talent regardless of scheme." He won't do that.You can almost always recruit raw talent to fit a scheme. Just because we're not looking for 6'8" 280lb cast iron statues for quarterback anymore doesn't mean we're not looking for raw talent. Do you really think RR is going to take a 5'3" 130lb 3* running back over a 5'11" 220lb 5* running back if he has the choice?
Put simply, it is impossible to talk about Rodriguez as a coach without immediately jumping into his success with the spread. But it is possible to talk about some of the best of his peers without identifying a single offensive scheme.This is because he's adapted his spread to work with his players. He's not going to come out with the I-Form every down and pound the ball down opponents' throats, but he's been very adaptive everywhere he's coached.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:06 PM ^
He can't go out and recruit highly ranked players who "don't fit" his scheme? With the exception of big, road grading offensive linemen and 6'5 dropback passers, I disagree.I would add that certain RB's are a better fit for the zone running scheme than others. It's not plug and play at RB.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:50 PM ^
The spread is a formation not an offensive scheme. There is spread n' shred, spread option, hyper spread, mixed-spread, passing spread and I probably missed one. Oklahoma State and Texas Tech run out of the spread but they are very different different offenses.
Basically you are wrong, very wrong.
August 17th, 2009 at 3:55 PM ^
Appreciate your clarification.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:19 PM ^
The spread is about using formations (plural) to spread out the defense in order to find mismatches and/or numerical advantages in personnel.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:33 PM ^
WHY WHY WHY WHY?
I'm pretending you're a fat old man now, just like every other woman on the interwebs
August 17th, 2009 at 4:44 PM ^
Why do you believe that the "2010 recruiting class clarifies the debate" and then ignore the 2009 class? That class was ranked 8th overall by Rivals and featured 1 5* and 13 4*. So the 2009 class was the anomaly and the 2010 class is answer to the debate? That seems a little disingenuous at best.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:01 PM ^
Not for nothing but when the barking sphincter, er I mean King of Belch, agrees with you, you might want to go back to the drawing board.
Consider it free advice.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:26 PM ^
Laura=King of Belch=Barking Sphincter=IJJS
Wouldn't be the first time he impersonated a young woman...
August 17th, 2009 at 5:43 PM ^
if laura=king of belch, that would be... HILARIOUS. if only for this post from laura to king of belch:
"Dear King,
I think I struck a nerve in the herd. Appreciate your thoughtful comments."
this is one step away from dark helmet playing with his dolls again.
August 18th, 2009 at 3:52 AM ^
Every time someone questions the Mighty Godriguez, almost the entire Mgoblog community erupts into a whiny, crying festival of bitches who rush to defend TMG as if he can do no wrong and those who question him are just out to get him.
Yes, you would probably know a thing or two about impersonating a woman, wouldn't you? You and most of the sensitive Nancy Pants's on this board who cry like lil girls just because someone dares to challenge anything Rodriguez does.
You will have your day--and if you guys read my posts in their entireity you'd see that I do think highly of Rodriguez--but as usual, it's probably read one or two lines, then fire off a bitchy reply. When Rodriguez wins--WHEN he wins--ya'll can have more bitchfests and "I told you so" parties all over the place, and those of us who had doubts WILL be here to join in and take our medicine (at least I will).
One thing I do have fun with is the rampant bullshit posted my way that is in no way truthful. Man, do I get the last laugh on a board full of whiny bitches time and again every time I see that shit. Small minds think small things.
Oh, that's right: This board is full of "Michigan Graduates"--just like Scout LOL HAHAHAHAHAHAHLOLZ!
August 18th, 2009 at 8:29 AM ^
"One thing I do have fun with is the rampant bullshit posted my way that is in no way truthful. Man, do I get the last laugh on a board full of whiny bitches time and again every time I see that shit. Small minds think small things."
Then... go away?
August 18th, 2009 at 8:35 AM ^
tl;dr
August 18th, 2009 at 11:19 AM ^
Angry rhetoric aside, your position boils down to this: you want Michigan to succeed, believe Rodriguez will bring success to the program, but refuse to endorse everything he does.
I don't have a problem with that. Rodriguez is a coach, not a god.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:46 PM ^
I think you draw a lot of wild conclusions from one half-year of recruiting. Rodriguez' first two classes were overflowing with 4 star players. Let me astound you with the actual number of 4 and 5 star players Michigan has recruited in the last 5 years (per Rivals):
2003 - Carr - 11
2004 - Carr - 13
2005 - Carr - 11
2006 - Carr - 11
2007 - Carr - 7
2008 - Carr/RR - 17
2009 - RR - 14
2010 - RR - 5 (in August)
Rodriguez' only solo recruiting class thus far is our biggest 4*/5* haul in a decade but this season has convinced you his schematic inflexibility dooms us forever to others leftovers?
Rodriguez does favor players that fit his "scheme," but who are these top 100 players we are not interested in because they do not fit a scheme?
You say: "Rodriguez' preference for the spread-option scheme inevitably pushes him to recruit in talent-rich southern states, in Texas, and in California."
Why? Do spread-capable athletes only grow in sunny climates? I heard a rumor that RR might land a 5* spread-option QB who lives right here in Michigan.
Also: "...leaving our program to fight for those not committed to LSU, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee, Florida, USC, Texas, UCLA, Cal, etc."
Rodriguez is not left with these teams' leftovers. He stole a commit from Florida before his first game. Last year he grabbed Stokes from Tennessee. UCLA and Cal...?
August 18th, 2009 at 8:04 AM ^
Now that you have debunked laura's recruiting concerns and have shown that Rodriguez has stocked up on talent: when will he win games?
Of is that still to come in, say 2011 or so?
August 18th, 2009 at 12:32 PM ^
You act like he could have been winning games between last November and now. A handful of his recruits played last year - that's it. Asking "when will the wins come" from his recruiting at this point is extreme - his recruits have barely taken the field.
August 17th, 2009 at 8:11 PM ^
Can anyone post those 2007 recruits names? I wonder who red-shirted, played, left, etc.
August 17th, 2009 at 10:24 PM ^
Drawing 4 and 5 star recruits to Ann Arbor from the south and west has always been a staple of Michigan recruiting, and will continue under Rodriguez. But it will not increase significantly under Rich Rod unless he shifts his balance from emphasizing "scheme" to "raw talent regardless of scheme." He won't do that.
Pls. provide list of all 4* and 5* recruits (other than 6'5" qb statues) that RR has ignored because he privileges scheme over raw talent.
Kthx.
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