Recruiting Michigan and Detroit And an Apology
This is more a message to our fan base than Rich Rodriguez, because I think Rodriguez gets that Michigan high schools, while not rich with talent, can provide needed talent to help him win.
From behind a paywall, Michigan kids like Cam and Thomas Gordon, Rocko Khoury, Teric Jones, and of course Will Campbell are drawing praise from an "insider" who sees a lot of practices. Right now, Teric Jones, who was moved from offense to defensive back, is responding well and asserting himself as a talent that will warrant playing time. Khoury is pushing those in front of him. Cameron Gordon, who many believed would end up at linebacker, has been very impressive as a receiver; a big guy with good hands who is not afraid to go over the middle for a catch, and he will undoubtedly be a good blocker as well.
For those of us who believe in recruiting Michigan, this comes as no surprise. What Michigan kids may lack in development due to the constraints of the MHSAA, weather, coaching and facilities, they make up with in ahleticism, talent, love of the game, and desire. You can't say enough for kids who have dreamt of playing for one of the big in-state schools, and if given a fair shot, as they are, they do not back down to their much more heralded colleagues from football havens like Ohio, Florida, and Texas.
I am encouraged by the reports coming in regarding Michigan kids and look forward to seeing how they perform on the field. I also hope that Rodriguez works to downplay, and even wipe out this silly perception that seems to be going around Michigan that the Wolveerines are not necessarily a welcome wagon for home-grown talent. Especially in his first few formative years, when as we saw with DaQuinta Jones and Pearlie Graves, out of state kids in general and southern kids in particular can be awfully wishy-washy about their committment to play for Michigan.
Much of the 2010 class is made up of midwest recruits, and UM has landed three top players from the home state already. It will be interesting to see how this trend develops in the future.
I know there has been a wave of folks who say things like "A three star from Florida is better than a four or five star from Michigan" or "I don't care where the players come from"--but again, getting kids from your own back yard, solidifying your home base, is a foundation that I believe UM needs and can benefit from. These kids won't get homesick, are used to the weather, can be spiritual and emotional leaders, won't wilt under Barwis, and will more likely stick out their first couple years when playing time is not exactly easy to come by.
I'd like to know the thoughts any MGoBloggers have with regard to this topic!
From behind a paywall, Michigan kids like Cam and Thomas Gordon, Rocko Khoury, Teric Jones, and of course Will Campbell are drawing praise from an "insider" who sees a lot of practices. Right now, Teric Jones, who was moved from offense to defensive back, is responding well and asserting himself as a talent that will warrant playing time. Khoury is pushing those in front of him. Cameron Gordon, who many believed would end up at linebacker, has been very impressive as a receiver; a big guy with good hands who is not afraid to go over the middle for a catch, and he will undoubtedly be a good blocker as well.
For those of us who believe in recruiting Michigan, this comes as no surprise. What Michigan kids may lack in development due to the constraints of the MHSAA, weather, coaching and facilities, they make up with in ahleticism, talent, love of the game, and desire. You can't say enough for kids who have dreamt of playing for one of the big in-state schools, and if given a fair shot, as they are, they do not back down to their much more heralded colleagues from football havens like Ohio, Florida, and Texas.
I am encouraged by the reports coming in regarding Michigan kids and look forward to seeing how they perform on the field. I also hope that Rodriguez works to downplay, and even wipe out this silly perception that seems to be going around Michigan that the Wolveerines are not necessarily a welcome wagon for home-grown talent. Especially in his first few formative years, when as we saw with DaQuinta Jones and Pearlie Graves, out of state kids in general and southern kids in particular can be awfully wishy-washy about their committment to play for Michigan.
Much of the 2010 class is made up of midwest recruits, and UM has landed three top players from the home state already. It will be interesting to see how this trend develops in the future.
I know there has been a wave of folks who say things like "A three star from Florida is better than a four or five star from Michigan" or "I don't care where the players come from"--but again, getting kids from your own back yard, solidifying your home base, is a foundation that I believe UM needs and can benefit from. These kids won't get homesick, are used to the weather, can be spiritual and emotional leaders, won't wilt under Barwis, and will more likely stick out their first couple years when playing time is not exactly easy to come by.
I'd like to know the thoughts any MGoBloggers have with regard to this topic!
August 20th, 2009 at 6:15 AM ^
They are getting the best kids out of Michigan and going where the talent is for the rest of their classes. OSU is the only team to win an NC in the last ten years that doesn't have predominantly southern players; this is not an accident. Whatever the reason, southern players are performing better on a regular basis and getting their teams to the NC game.
If you ever go to a HS game in Florida, you will be amazed at the athleticism of even the mediocre teams. I don't have any direct experience with TX, but I hear that the gap between TX HS football and anywhere else is as huge as the gap between FL and MI.
I truly think that there are at least five HS teams in FL that could beat any MIAA team (Alma, Albion, etc) straight up.
August 20th, 2009 at 6:29 AM ^
I hope no one gets the impression that this is all about handing out schollies to Michigan kids like they're halloween candy. Or that UM should in ANY way abandon the national recruiting it really needs. No way.
I just don't like the attitude that pops up from time to time indicating that UM doesn't need Michigan kids, or that Michigan kids are light years behind the rest of the country.
If Rodriguez is so good at identifying talent, he can identify it here just as well. And he is starting, IMO, off well also with the walk on program.
August 20th, 2009 at 8:04 AM ^
Are you suggesting that Rodriguez has given the impression that "UM doesn't need Michigan kids, or that Michigan kids are light years behind the rest of the country"?
If not, why the need for your post?
Rodriguez has done a superb job of recruiting thus far in my opinion.
August 20th, 2009 at 8:34 AM ^
and even local Detroit TV stations..Don Shane even addressed it) have created and tried to perpetuate this inaccurate perception. There have even been internet rumors that negative recruiting... especially from Sparty... is also stirring this up.
August 20th, 2009 at 7:04 AM ^
Michigan, for years, has recruited a solid mix of in-state and out-of-state talent. That hasn't and won't change. The only people perpetuating any kind of shift is the MSM. It's a non-starter.
FWIW, Michigan, at least until Wermers and O'Neill quit the team, had more in-state players than Michigan State. The balance of the team concerns me, not at all.
August 20th, 2009 at 7:28 AM ^
Have any kids from florida "wilted under barwis"? there may be some, but the players that come to my mind as having not held up under a more running-till-you-puke-centric conditioning program have been midwestern/michigan guys.
michigan will continue to recruit top talent instate. when it comes to filling out a recruiting class with more "marginal" players, i have no problem with the staff's strategy of getting guys that can flat out run, and have a passion for the game. it seems that the cultures that engender these two qualities, for one reason or another, mostly occur out of state.
August 20th, 2009 at 7:43 AM ^
NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING has changed on the Michigan end when it comes to recruiting in-state. Rodriguez has said more than once he wants the recruiting base to be Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvana, and then going to Florida, with everywhere else coming in 3rd.
The perception that RR neglects the in-state talent is a lie, pure and simple. In 2002, Michigan signed 11 players from in-state. 6 in 2003. 6 in 2004. 5 in 2005. 4 in 2006. 5 in 2007, the year of the great exodus. In 2008, RR held onto all 5 Michigan players that had committed to Carr despite Dantonio trying desperately to steal O'Neill and Cissoko and Weis nearly stealing Mike Martin. He signed 4 in-state this past year.
It's BS being spewed out of East Lansing that's behind the "change in perception." While RR was busy securing the 08 class and scrambling for late additions, Dantonio and co. got a jump start on the 09 class. They locked down Baker and Norman before Michigan had a chance, and along the way they somehow brainwashed Renaissance coach Antonio Watts into thinking that Carson Butler WASN'T a headcase and Andre Criswell WASN'T a grad assistant working for RR now.
It basically boils down to this:
1) Michigan's coaches are not neglecting the state. It's just the dynamics that have changed, because...
2) Dantonio is an improvement over John L. Smith. Kind of hard not to be. He has shown to be at least semi-competent, and he has gone on a rampage in the state talking negatively about Rodriguez and Michigan.
3) Michigan State SHOULD be a huge factor in the state of Michigan. Why? Because...what else do they have? They can dip into Ohio every once in a while and maybe come across a player or two that OSU doesn't want (note that they offered Terry Talbott and Christian Pace). They can go into Indiana and get an Isaiah Lewis. On rare occasions, they can find some kid in the South with Michigan roots or something and bring him up north. But other than that...they don't have a national recruiting base. They're obligated to put the majority of their ducks in the Michigan pond. And what has it gotten them? History doesn't lie. The state of Michigan simply doesn't produce enough high-level talent to sustain a high-level BCS program. There are a handful of players every year that are Michigan-caliber. Not nearly enough for Michigan to be where the coaches want to be, talent-wise. So they have to go elsewhere. Michigan State doesn't have that kind of pull. You think MSU could go into South Carolina and pull Quinton Washington away from the Gamecocks? You think MSU could go into Arizona and take Craig Roh and Taylor Lewan away from all the schools out west? Is Ricardo Miller going to move 1200 miles for Michigan State? Does Michigan State have the ability to steal recruits from Florida, Penn State, Tennessee?
Look at Rivals rankings since they started. The top player in the state of Michigan each year:
2003: LaMarr Woodley (Saginaw)
2004: Alex Mitchell (Bay City)
2005: Kevin Grady (East Grand Rapids)
2006: Brandon Graham (Detroit Crockett)
2007: Ronald Johnson (Muskegon)
2008: *Boubacar Cissoko (Detroit Cass Tech)
2009: William Campbell (Detroit Cass Tech)
2010: William Gholston (Detroit Southeastern)/Devin Gardner (Inkster)
Outside of 2008 and 2009, the best player has never been from the same high school. And even that's dubious, because honestly, Nick Perry should've finished the 2008 rankings at #1 (and he would've if he hadn't have been played out of position in the Army Bowl). The point is, there is no steady, consistent producer of elite or even solid D-1 talent in the state. The best high school teams in the state, teams like EGR and Muskegon, rarely put out the supers like Grady and RoJo. The CT surge with Cissoko and Campbell and Jones and Gordon and Mathis is recent. Southeastern has had Gholston and Fred Smith, that's it. Renaissance has had Mylan Hicks, Chris Norman, Lawrence Thomas next year, and almost nothing else. Inkster has the potential with Greg Carter as the coach, but who knows. There just isn't a major program in the state like a Glenville in Ohio, at St. X and St. Ignatius, or the powerhouses in Florida like STA and MNW and BTW and Pahokee, consistently churning out multiple solid D-1 prospects every single year.
And don't give me the BS about how midwest guys won't wilt under Barwis and will stick it out their first few years. Dann O'Neill is from Grand Haven. Alex Mitchell was from Bay City. Justin Boren's from Ohio. Kurt Wermers is from Indiana. Steve Threet's from Adrian. Them being from the midwest or Michigan is completely and totally irrelevant. Mitchell being from Michigan didn't change the fact that Andy Moeller and Mike Gittleson turned him into a gigantic blob of pudding. Boren being from Ohio and being a Michigan legacy didn't prevent him from turning into a deranged sociopath.
If Michigan beats MSU this year, all the chatter will stop. The media will stop the Dantonio stroking, the diarrhea coming from Dantonio's mouth will be rendered useless, and we will all be able to put this argument to bed. Nothing's different on our end.
August 20th, 2009 at 7:58 AM ^
Amazing post, should be its own diary entry.
August 20th, 2009 at 8:43 AM ^
I concur.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:12 AM ^
Amazing post, should be THIS diary entry.
August 20th, 2009 at 8:23 AM ^
Take that you Ugly Green Menace!!!!!!
August 20th, 2009 at 8:24 AM ^
....copy and save this post.
And re-paste it every time someone whines about "recruiting perception in Michigan." This is the definitive smackdown. Even better, it's all full of truth.
Good work. Nyet. Great work.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:59 AM ^
Are why we need a 'classics' section of posts, like someone suggested earlier in the week so we can read them over and over again.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:00 AM ^
I like the balance that I have been seeing in RR's recruiting. I think Hankins is a perfect example of this. In the past he is someone that Michigan probably would have extended an offer to. These days if instate players don't meet certain expectations then Rich has shown that he will look elsewhere.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:06 AM ^
This diary brings up a lot of legitimate points re: The Mighty Godriguez and his inability to understand what makes Michigan special.
The Winged Helmet means more to in-state recruits. I was anal raping my wife the other night while chugging a Keystone and my eye caught a glimpse of my collection of Winged Helmet drawings in the corner of the van - I nearly cried and started pushing in and out even harder. She was crying too, but for a different reason.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:42 AM ^
You will probably set the record for fastest mgoblog banhammer.
You must be proud.
August 20th, 2009 at 11:57 AM ^
I think you have completely missed the genius sarcastic wit that the Duke of Dis is displaying here, and the neg bangs are really uncalled for.
I mean, look, the guy created an ID in a very feeble attempt to lampoon my diary and past posts. I think he should be rewarded for this outstanding effort. Oh, wait...
August 20th, 2009 at 11:58 AM ^
I'm not sure what you are trying to imply, but I don't appreciate the insinuation that I'm sort of copy cat. I'm the real Duke around here, and you are just some faggy wannabe.
August 20th, 2009 at 12:04 PM ^
I'm on your side! I see how you've fooled the masses! You should be +800 with this post.
August 20th, 2009 at 12:56 PM ^
Class-tastic
August 20th, 2009 at 12:46 PM ^
One of the funniest posts I've read on here. Bravo.
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:09 AM ^
of the "Duke" and that's great and all. But, how in the hell can you possibly have -4 points overall when this comment alone netted you a whopping negbangerrific -40 points? And every comment I've seen that you have written is negative.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:18 AM ^
I've been reading this blog since right before the big move over to the new site and I can't recall a lot of anti Mich instate recuiting here.
Most posters here do a pretty good job of understanding what it takes to build a football progam.
What I have noticed is a very small number of people don't care for RRod.
They make these statements that don't have a grain of fact.
Let me clue you,RRod failure in 2008 was b/c he HAD NO TALENT.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:22 AM ^
It's not like kids from Pahokee or other poor regions have great facilities, expert coaching, or amazing high schools.
The only real advantage of getting a local kid is that they are less likely to leave due to playing time. Oh, wait, Vince Helmuth and Threet are both local and have both left.
RR should get the best players, in his opinion (not Scout or Rivals) period, regardless of where they went to high school.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:04 PM ^
Having a lot of in-state kids may provide an intangible advantage in rivalry games (particularly THE GAME). If a kid has grown up with the UM-MSU rivalry or the UM-OSU rivalry, he's more likely to appreciate the importance of the rivalry and match the intensity of the kids he'll go up against playing MSU or OSU (both of which usually have a higher percentage of in-state players than we do).
August 20th, 2009 at 11:51 AM ^
First, on your point that Michigan, under Rodriguez, is NOT ignoring Michigan: I agree and said that in my diary.
Second: Dantonio is an improvement and is doing a good job, yada yada, I agree. And I also agree that MSU absolutely MUST be a "force" in Michigan recruiting--and Michigan recruiting has always been their baileywick, and have said that--but Dantonio is limited in his national appeal and can never match UM's national appeal.
Third: We also have NO disagreement as to Michigan recruiting nationally. Any school not named Texas, Florida or Southern California has to go national. I of course said that in my diary.
Fourth: I think a difference here is that Rodriguez seems to be scoring with recruits that might not normally be in a Michigan uniform, such as both Gordons and maybe even Teric Jones. It's been said that Michigan's approach in the past has been to go after the top kids in Michigan and leave the rest for MSU or whomever else. Well, UM still grabbed Cissoko, Campbell, Gordon and White--and I see Rodriguez going beyond the elite Michigan kids now and in the future.
Lastly: OK, no guarantees that the Michigan kids WON'T wilt under Barwis, but I think they would be more likely to stick out this more rigorous S&C longer, even if they don't play as much. Maybe they, being in-sate kids, value a UM degree more than a kid from Florida or Louisiana who doesn't play; maybe they value realizing a childhood dream of playing for Michigan and being in front of family more. Whatever, I think there are reasons beyond the glory or possible NFL chances that make the experience more special for home grown talents, and I also think they may play with more passion as well.
I will say that I don't think I am alone in wondering how some kids who come from other parts of the country will thrive at Michigan where the demands aren't met with on field appearances.
And again, to reiterate: I do not suggest that you pass out scholarships unless you see a benefit. You only get so many and they can't be wasted. But do you take flyers on the Drew Dileos or Tony Drakes of the world if you have that type of talent at home? Do you pass out scholarships to some kids out of state in the hopes of making inroads there?
And take a kid like Hankins: Do you flat out refuse him, or is he worth taking a chance on much the same way they did with Jones or Graves? Would Hankins respond if he got the chance?
August 20th, 2009 at 12:53 PM ^
Question, how exactly does one decide to spend a considerable amount of time in a place where basically no one wants to associate with said person? If you're that hard up for attention, get a dog or call those 900 chat hotlines.
August 20th, 2009 at 4:47 PM ^
And your buddies at the WLA read 'em, and spend the time docking me (when you aren't padding each other's points with your 100's of other board ID's). Honestly, Shock, what a bunch of dicks you little faggies at the WLA are.
August 20th, 2009 at 5:54 PM ^
I actually skip all of your posts and don't bother to neg you. I just read this one because it was in direct reply to me.
Attention is what you want, attention is what no one should bother giving to you. I'm done replying to you after this. If everyone would do the same, maybe you'd go away.
August 20th, 2009 at 2:18 PM ^
I understand that we will ideally seek and acquire the talent we want for the program across the nation, but I think that there is something to be said about "locking down" the home state from a recruiting perspective. I am not sure that it can be done, but it shouldn't stop the program from trying.
An example that comes to mind, while we can all pile on regarding their tactics used, is the state of Alabama. Fierce rivalry exists between Auburn and Alabama, but Alabama has at this moment in time, for all intents and purposes, locked down in-state. They pick it clean, and Auburn generally gets left-overs, if I can be a little callous.
Imagine if we were able to do the same, and get the Gholstons of the state in addition to those who already commit. It might be an unattainable utopian concept, but it seems like 'bama has come very close to this.
August 20th, 2009 at 3:38 PM ^
Big difference between recruiting talent in Alabama and Michigan. The Tide could concentrate only on in-state recruiting and put out a decent football team. Michigan would fall to pieces if we only concentrated on in-state recruiting. Big talent disparity between Alabama and Michigan, state wise.
August 20th, 2009 at 6:35 PM ^
Actually, we'd probably still be competitive if we could lock down the top 10 Michigan HS players every year. The state isn't quite as talent-thin as people make it out to be. But we'd be more like a 7-5/8-4 level team than a national-title contender. We can get good players in-state, but there are often better ones elsewhere.
August 21st, 2009 at 2:06 AM ^
I am not saying M should build exclusively from in-state talent. I think, though, that all the major programs generally make every reasonable attempt to lock down their home state. I think RR is starting to do it, and the last 2 years' classes from in state are strong. It will take some wins to complete the process and get Michigan truly locked down. If we take a look at the preseason Top 10, I think that we will find most of them have major 2010 commitment base already in place from their home turf. But, just like everyone suggests, the thing that puts them over the top is their national recruiting "reach" to compete for the top talent. I really believe that RR will get the program back to the elite recruiting status again after a strong season this year. Everything is staged except the wins. We are having a heck of a class shaping up.
August 20th, 2009 at 8:42 PM ^
Let me ask you this: By decent, do you mean in the way MSU can garner most of its recruiting class from Michigan and become a "decent" team with consistent records of 7-5/8-4?
I think that is what the poster you replied to is saying--Michigan puts out enough talent that if you recruit, and develop it--you can be decent. But again, neither he nor I suggest doing anything like that.
I attempted to make three points with this post:
1) Rodriguez is being very, very wrongly perceived as a guy who is going to ignore Michigan kids, and I have said that from the start;
2) Michigan kids are performing well so far, and some of them are not the elite, top top recruits in the state. In fact, some are kids that probably wouldn't have been given a shot under other UM regimes;
3) I believe this will continue into the future and Michigan kids, beyond the Gardners/Gholstons can be of great benefit to the UM program.
August 21st, 2009 at 2:11 AM ^
Every stat that I have seen shows that AL and MI produce equal levels of NFL players. Mid 40s for each state between 2004 through 2007.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:01 PM ^
I didn't feel like creating another diary for this, so I put it here.
First, I'd like to apologize to the MGoBlog, and the Michigan Fan community. In the past, as the now banned Barking Sphincter, I flamed the board with my two diaries about the Rodriguez and then calling out UM fans. The second post grew solely out of my naturally cynical and antagonistic nature and was completely uncalled for.
Many posters offered me this sage advice: If it makes you so miserable, why be a Michigan fan. For those words, I thank you, and they were good ones. As TKB, I tried to tone down my rhetoric, my unnatural anti-Rodriguez stance a bit, but to still mix in what I thought might have been valid concerns.
After further thought, though, I have come to the conclusion that I really don't have the right to flame this board or be antagonistic toward a fan base which I am a part of, and which contains many Michigan graduates (whose accomplishments in that area I have the utmost respect for).
In short, calling out UM grads=DUMB. Calling out fans who suuport Michigan through thick and thin=DUMB. Flaming a blog that is one of the best on the net=DUMB.
With regard to he WLA and our feud, here is my version of the truth, and it is offered to them as much as anybody: I simply stopped writing or attempting to post there because I felt my writing completely and embarrassingly paled in comparison to theirs. The WLA may be the funniest blog on the net. They are terrific writers with astounding imaginations and have a way of communicating their thoughts that stands above probably 98% of the content on the intranets. And that is no sugarcoat. I really respect their pad level and fluid hips.
With regard to Rodriguez: I truly, but secretly, have a man crush on him and Barwis and fell that if given time by fans and UM stuffed shirts, will build a perennial winner. I owe them my support (meager though that may be)--and more importantly, I owe my support and positive energy to this and other MgoMessage boards. Anything less, I am an idiot and deserve ALL the bullshit that comes my way.
I don't expect to be welcomed back with tears, hugs, and open arms, but there it is. This is not a surrender, just an admission that I have been an asshole and have cast mself as a villain on an island with people that I respect and love being a part of.
I truly hope any and all doubts I have expressed about Rodriguez are unwarranted, and will offer no more knee-jerk reactions that require no more thought than a monkey needs to toss poop against the window at the zoo. I will be supportive, intelligent, funny, and probably irascible from time to time, but there it is.
Thank you, and I look forward to turning over this new leaf and hope you all will at least, if hesitantly, give me a chance here.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:30 PM ^
The only thing you forgot to add was Sincerely, TKoB. I'm not quite sure how sincere you really are.
August 20th, 2009 at 10:03 PM ^
The time will tell, won't it? That's the point of forthright apologies.
I think you can spot the difference between sincere and disingenuous apologies--there's not rationalization, no blame shifting, no minimization of my errors and ways, and no "but" in there.
Like I said, time will tell. I don't expect instant forgiveness and to be welcomed into the fold very rapidly.
And if I've burned bridges, well then, that's too bad for me I guess!
August 20th, 2009 at 9:35 PM ^
How many handles do you have on this board? Like 6? I think you need some help man. You've been replying to your own replies a little too much lately. I feel sorry for you.
August 20th, 2009 at 9:58 PM ^
I have just one. I'm not good with passwords, and don't need different handles.
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