In Turner's case, a redshirt freshman who just isn't ready to carry the load, there have been plenty like him. The coaches are feeling the heat and really need Turner to commit like a senior, he just isn't up to the task. It could be a case of bad timing, I hope the kid can bounce back from this. I would love to see him reconsider.

Understandable overreaction given the circumstances.

As many others said, the sample size is just too small and of that sample there just isn't enough information to really say that the players left b/c RR didn't/wouldn't/couldn't placate them in some way that he "should" have.  

the Turner ordeal is that we (myself included) don't have any excuses for RR on this one.  All the other shit could be blamed on Lloyd, or the Freep, or LaBodie, or Bill Martin, or West By Gawd Virginia.  But this one is all RR.  And then that makes us (or at least me) question the validity of the other excuses  (well, to a point.  I still don't think that RR shredded player documents at WV, for example).

RR won at previous stops minus the 5 star guys. Sure, the QB and other skill positions need to be studs.  It's a great post, the facts are impeccable, but I just think speed, heart and upside are not the measuring stick of all blue chips. But they are vital to the guys RR wants. We'll find out if this works real soon. Damn I hope it does.  The days of out- talenting teams may be over, well it IS over. I'm not real comfortable with it, but I do believe it can work. And if we have a real good year or two and RR is secure here then those blue chips (with the intangibles included) will come rolling into AA. Then we will destroy. Just my opinion.

He didn't pass the minimum Ohio high-school graduation test. Deduction: lazy student.

He came into camp not only late (because he was still trying to graduate high school and thus qualify) but out of shape. Deduction: lazy athlete.

Then you'd think he'd come back hungrier than ever, working hard all last fall and all off-season. He didn't. Deduction: still a lazy athlete.

What would Lloyd have done? What would Carroll or Meyer have done? My guess is they would have red-shirted him last fall, and jumped all over his ass for coming into camp this week out of shape. What would JT have then done?

Probably transfer.

Another thing to consider, as I pointed out earlier: We're all ballisticizing because he was a blue-chip recruit. But the second he arrives on campus, wasn't it speculated/deduced that he wasn't agile enough to be a premier CB, and wasn't fast enough to be a premier safety? So how is it, particularly, that he's a blue-chip recruit?

I suspect the fact he was a tweener DB, perhaps with a still-growing body, sacked his confidence when he saw he wasn't a dominant performer at either position. So he sulked, reverted to default lazy-ass, blamed it on the coaches, came to camp bloated, said he wanted out, and got a fast ticket out the door.

It is hard for me to draw conclusions on this because we aren't winning yet...that of course makes everything look worse.  Everyone, especially the coaches, is obviously under intense pressure and every misstep is exacerbated.  Right now the roster is still relatively thin and a top recruit dropping out seems more ominous.   My expectation is that when the winning resumes recruiting will improve with it, blue chip players will be more attracted to Michigan, and any defections will seem less damaging.

Ron English,  He's also old school, Brown at Texas is old school.  You think Paul Brown would put with a bunch of superstar kids I don't think so.  I like the hard ass that RR appeared to be when I watched practice his first and second years here at Michigan.  He yelled at Tony Clemons because he could not catch the ball and immediately turn up field without dancing and faking air. 

I'm riding with RR on this one buddy.  Like you say he's gonna make these kids the badest mofos on the block, 3 star or 5 star it doesen't matter. 

Being the "baddest mo-fo" on the field when you're in high school can give you a very false sense of smug arrogance when you get to college. Remember when you were in high school? Probably graduated at - or near - the top of your class, I'd guess. Remember that first class your freshman year, when everyone else was at least as smart as you'd been in high school? I'd further suppose that you didn't feel quite so special anymore.

Worse, the people who graduated lower on the pecking order in high school were working harder, for longer hours, for their grades in college, and you were competing with them on a grading curve. They'd always had to work hard for their grades, knew how, and were motivated. Personally, I was stunned to find that while I was "all that" in high school, I was pretty "meh" in college.

Although I wasn't an athlete, I suspect it was much the same for Justin Turner. RR definitely "grades on a curve". The harder you work, the more toughness and willingness to learn you demonstrate, the better you listen to your coaches, the more likely it is that you'll be rewarded with playing time and a high position on the depth chart. Some people eventually respond the way you hope; some don't. That can't be blamed on RR.

So Turner arrived late, I am assuming due to academic qualification issues. I can only assume he had to work very hard to be successful in classes at Michigan. (I didn't have academic qualification issues and had to work very hard.)

Then there is moving from being a king pin, highly touted recruit, to being one of many at the next level. Not to mention that suddenly you are not the best guy on the field, and thus cannot rely soley on your talent, you actually have to learn your position, etc.

Then there is the tear down, build up process, and all of the hard work that goes along with that.

Then your team is loosing, and your position group is a big reason why. Where you might ordinarily have a redshirt year to adjust, the pressure is on to learn now and play.

All of that is a recipe for stress. Some guys just won't make it.

This young man is at a cross roads and needs to decide whether to pick himself up by his boot straps, or change course and do something else in life. So defining moment for him, and I am glad his parents have slowed the process down, and are coming up to support him.

These past few years have been reaaly hard on these kids. None of them signed up for two loosing seasons and no bowl games, total culture change, and so on. From Troy, it sounds like many have decided to compete with or without the few who are stuck in "what the hell did I sign up for?". (Maybe there is a circle in the inferno for the "diseased".)

Maybe there was a way for a smoother transition. Maybe Bill Martin failed to recognize the impact of such a total culture change. (I don't imagine Harbaugh runs a soft program either.)

Bottom line is, it is sort of Rich's fault - he could have made it easier - but the values he's applying aren't wrong. And if the guys who stay manage to put together a solid turn around season, and then (with more maturity) a really impressive one ... well, like the Marines and the Seals, some guys are attracted to that kind of challenge. Those are the tough "summamabitches" we want.

I'm OK with the approach. I more wonder if the culture change will fail before results can be delivered.

Good thread, everyone! Isn't this so much better than "Terrelle Pryor Ad Hominem Attacks", "SOMEONE SAID MICHIGAN ISN'T THAT GOODT", and "Tate or Denard?"?

Now that my eyes hurt from reading all the great opinions here, I just have to say that RR appears to have players wants and wishes in mind. If the players can prove their hard work (and debating skills) he will listen and promote change. Just see how he named 2 season long captains based on the wants of the seniors. Once respect is earned, change can be granted. I for one hope the team sees this as a positive sign and moves forward knowing that the harder they work the more they will get in return (wins and wants). The team hasn't proven yet that they have earned special treatment. I would imagine UWV players would say they got what they wanted after good/great seasons. Don't forget just about every recruit talks about how down to earth RR is during a visit and he tells it to them straight. I doubt he changes a whole lot during the season except that the expectations are greater (he might yell more too).

there's one thing i want you to do for us, richrod:

Mallet is the only one that has proven himself somewhere else (and not completely so). I think this says as much about the recruiting rankings as it does for RR. 

However I do have to say that I agree that there is an interesting trend here.  But possibly this will translate into a positive in the long term if we start winning.  Once we win we get more blue chips and certainly more that are willing to bust their butts.  When you winning you will try hard to get more of em 'nough said.

breaking an ego or massaging it?

RR like most incoming head coaches (I imagine) break a program down and rebuild it in their image (Note: Kelly at ND is vocally distancing himself from RR's mode of transition stating he just wants to tweak some things, nothing is broken, he will work with the strength of his players etc).  RR is the child of a coal miner.  He was a walk on player, he presumably had nothing handed to him and worked hard for what he does have.  The exodus of players with a new coach is inevitable, the problem with RR was how they left, kicking, screaming, pissing and moaning.  This day and age, CFB has an image, schools have a persona and identity, more so in the last 10 year with internet, multiple cable channels, blogs etc.  Others have rightly stated you can't do what Bo or Woody did 30+ years ago.  I don't think RR is doing what Bo did or that he is tougher than other D1 coaches, but what little he is engaging in is magnified b/c of the way players have left.  With all the issues and drama, I see RR undergoing a PR transformation.  RR is not soft and not afraid to chew out his QBs or players, grab their face masks or growl at them during a nationally televised game.  But, in the 2nd half of last season, RR's demeanor changed and softened.  I expect he will try to remain calm throughout this season.  Can he or will he massage egos?  I doubt it but he seems to be trying to be more flexible and placate his players, given the senior captain elections, etc.

Ultimately, I would expect a balanced approach.  Good cop - bad cop tag teaming.  Who will be the hard ass coach, who will be the softie?  Now, it seems there may be a balance with RR and Barwis barking and GERG coddling or citing the train that could.  

5* vs 3*

I don't think RR treats them differently and I don't know if he should.  What would that do for the morale of a team?  Although not specifically stated, I don't think a 5* or JT should be "handed" the position based on some preseason hype rating. 

After 2.5 recruiting cycles, can we generalize about RR's targets?  What does he want? Are 3* hungrier than 5* players?  Will they do more, work harder, bitch less, not transfer, and stay the full 4 or 5 years in a program?   Without any statistics to back my theory, I suggest 5* players are more likely to leave earlier than 3* players.  If a coach is building a lasting regime, will he rely on coaching up talent, as RR did at WVU? So, for RR having 3* for 5 years is acceptable plus he values walkons b/c of work ethic and attitude.  Given the inherent egos present with 5*s, I don't think the hard ass approach goes over well when you could be treated like a demigod at USC or FL.  But obviously it depends on the player and the position.  Paterno had an interesting interview on BTN last week during the B10 kick off show.  He said something to the effect of having 120 kids means you have 120 different personalities and he tries to figure out what works for who, whether it was a kick in the ass or hand holding or personal meetings to motivate them etc.  I don't think Paterno treats the 3*s differently from 5*s, but I think he tries to motivate them to the best of their ability.  So, I conclude that RR will continue to recruit 3-4*, b/c he has in the past, he can coach them up, they will stay, not bitch, and he can continue to be a hard ass. 

On your identified player that prompted the muse, what I find surprising about JT is that he didn't even get to play a single down in a game.   This is a kid that has UM tattoo, requested Woodson's #, and dreamed about playing at UM.  Theories abound describing his reasons for leaving.  I don't think it is laziness or 11 lbs added.  He grew physically in the last 2 years.  Some players don't, some do.  But given his size and physical changes, I postulate that he may have been asked to change positions, 6'2" and soon to be over 200 lbs is most likely a different position.  So, for this 5* Woodson wannabe and a red shirted freshman, it was too much.  He said EFF it, I'm out.  Also, for a 5* it is probably not encouraging to see walkons get starting positions over highly recruited players, although that didn't necessarily happen to him.  For a kid who loves Michigan, it doesn't make sense for him to leave when he would likely play this year and likely would be a starter CB next year if that in fact would be the position he stayed at.  That would be something worth waiting for and working toward.  But, if he was asked to change positions, going from the best CB in Ohio, top 5 CB in the nation, to a LB or safety, he probably would not be down with that shift. 

but, perhaps everyone is over analyzing the situation.  I mean, are we trying to explain the un-explainable?

Think about it.  What other coach in history has gone to a high profile program such as Michigan and suffered all the slings and arrows RR has?  Real estate disasters, transfer issues, NCAA violations, depth problems,  denied admissions, baggage from leaving former university, cultural clashes,...the list seemingly goes on forever.  We haven't gone a single month since RR arrived without some 'issue' going toxic. 

When you get right down to it, all everyone is really asking is, why haven't we won more football games?  Yeah, we'd all like a simple answer, a silver bullet, as it were.  I just don't think there is one with regard to RR.  Gun to my skull I'd have to say its just a very long string of bad luck combined with with an information highway six lanes wide. 

So, a lively debate is fun and even better when content is sparse.  But, we are humans, and when we can't understand things we invent stuff like religion to explain it all away.  Maybe its just that shiat happens. It could be that simple.

Doesn't this all start with Boren? Would we be having this discussion if not for him?

To me, he's the only example of someone who maybe Rich should have handled differently. We can say good riddance and all that, but of all the defections, his did the most damage -- the loss of an anchor on the line. Molk's injury in 2009 would not have had the same kind of domino effect with Boren in place. But here's the thing -- Boren always had a complicated relationship with Ohio State, being a local and all. He's an anomaly that doesn't prove anything about Rodriguez.

So -- if we eliminate Boren from the equation, what does that leave? Mostly Turner, about whom little is known at this point. If he moves to (and succeeds at) another major BCS program, then we can talk about him possibly being the first concrete example of Rich having trouble handling blue-chip recruits who think they are locks for the NFL. But right now that's just speculation.

I agree with much of the sentiment that has been shared so far -- there's not enough evidence yet to draw conclusions. One question I have though, and I don't have the time or resources to do this leg work, is what is the baseline for other schools' attrition with blue-chip recruits? What was it like during Carr's era? I'm sure most schools don't lose half of their blue-chip recruits, but I'd be interested to see where we stand in comparison to them.

On another note, if you look at the 6.0+ guys who have left, 2 of them left because of the regime change (Boren and Mallett), Warren left for the NFL (I don't know that you can legitimately say he left because he didn't approve of RR), O'Neill couldn't make it work, Cissoko had disciplinary issues, and Turner left because we don't really know why. Of those, I think Turner (and maybe O'Neill) is the only one you could say left because he didn't want to put up with the coaches.

Thanks for taking the time to write this, though. Much appreciated.

I think it has to do with a mixture of Barwis and RR. Barwis has been shown to be one of the most demanding strength coaches out there and when your not giving your all RR will find out and it will lower his opinion of you if your not trying as hard as others. I think this was extremely evident at the end of the Carr era when Long was complaining about other players not giving it their all. I was friends with an OL when RR started and he was telling me that Boren was a spoiled brat who expected respect to be given to him and when RR didn't respond to this I think that lead to Boren leaving with the parting shot. I also believe this is the reason for others (not all), if they come in as a blue chip some will expect preferential treatment and RR is not going to give it to them (Tate is the shining example of this) and we need the seniors to start cracking down on this, even Braylon had this issue with Lloyd too.

No.

The problem schools like USC run into is that once the sheen comes off and your coach's ego becomes too big, you go through long stretches like the 90s when the team won between 6-8 games and never really competed nationally. 

winning should cure this problem