Is Michigan BB getting their fair share of top Recruits?

Submitted by champswest on

There has been much discussion of late about the success (or lack there of) of Michigan’s basketball recruiting. Specifically, that we are not getting our fair share of upper level recruits given our recent tournament success. This suggests that a teams NCAA tournament success should immediately result in an up-tick in recruiting success. This theory may well be true, but there are many other reasons for a player to pick a particular school, such as academics, location, coaching staff, chemistry with current players, style of play, legacy and so on.

But, if we are going to focus on tournament success, we must first look at said results to determine where Michigan stands in relation to other schools that we are recruiting against.  As many have said, we may not win many head-to-head battles with Duke and Kentucky, but we should be on the same level as the second tier of schools (or third tier?).  If we assume that most kids start paying attention to sports when they are 8 or 10 years old and committing to their college of choice when they are 16 or 17, does anything that happened more than 8 or 10 years ago mean that much to them?  And if we are talking about Michigan’s 2013 title game appearance, maybe we should only look at the last 3 years. Can we agree that a 3-year sample size is too small to be relevant? I chose to look at this century’s results only, 2000 – 2015, sixteen years of NCAA tournaments.

In order to be included in the analysis, a school had to appear in the Sweet Sixteen at least once in those 16 years.  That reduced the field to 65. I then awarded each of those teams 1 point for each tournament bid, 2 points for each Sweet Sixteen appearance, 3 for an Elite Eight, 4 for a Final Four and 5 for a Championship Game appearance. There was no additional bonus for actually winning the championship. I realize that this is an arbitrary system that may or may not be fair or totally accurate, but I wanted to keep this somewhat simple, while still meaningful. I then totaled the points for each school and ranked them in order. It may surprise some to learn that the school at the top of the list is MSU followed by the usual suspects: Kansas, Duke, Kentucky, Florida, North Carolina and UCONN.  Michigan finished 27th, surrounded by Oklahoma State, Pittsburg, Tennessee and Georgetown.

Chart of NCAA Tournament Success

School Bids 16 8 4 Ch. G. Total   School Bids 16 8 4 Ch. G. Total
Michigan State 16 11 8 6 2 96   Wichita St 5 3 1 1 0 18
Kansas 16 10 7 4 3 88   Purdue 9 3 1 0 0 18
Duke 16 12 5 4 3 86   LSU 6 2 1 1 0 17
Kentucky 14 9 7 4 2 79   VCU 8 1 1 1 0 17
Florida 13 7 7 4 3 79   Notre Dame 10 2 1 0 0 17
North Carolina 13 8 7 4 2 76   Xavier 6 2 2 0 0 16
UCONN 11 7 6 4 3 74   Cincinnati 11 2 0 0 0 15
Louisville 13 7 6 3 1 62   N. Carolina St 9 3 0 0 0 15
Wisconsin 16 8 4 3 1 61   Iowa State 7 2 1 0 0 14
Arizona 14 9 6 1 1 59   BYU 11 1 0 0 0 13
UCLA 12 7 3 3 1 52   USC 6 2 1 0 0 13
Butler 10 8 2 2 2 50   Temple 8 1 1 0 0 13
Syracuse 12 7 3 2 1 48   San Diego St 8 2 0 0 0 12
Ohio State 12 5 3 2 1 44   Washington 6 3 0 0 0 12
Texas 15 5 3 1 0 38   Kansas St 6 1 1 0 0 11
Memphis 10 4 3 1 1 36   Utah 7 2 0 0 0 11
Illinois 11 4 2 1 1 34   Davidson 6 1 1 0 0 11
Maryland 8 3 2 2 1 33   Dayton 6 1 1 0 0 11
Oklahoma   11 4 3 1 0 32   Vanderbilt 6 2 0 0 0 10
Gonzaga 16 5 1 0 0 29   St Josephs 5 1 1 0 0 10
Indiana 10 3 1 1 1 28   Wake Forrest 7 1 0 0 0 9
Villanova 10 4 2 1 0 28   UNLV 7 1 0 0 0 9
Marquette 10 4 2 1 0 28   Boston College 7 1 0 0 0 9
West Virginia 8 5 2 1 0 28   Tulsa 4 1 1 0 0 9
Oklahoma St. 11 3 2 1 0 27   Alabama 6 1 0 0 0 8
Pittsburg 12 5 1 0 0 25   Texas A&M 6 1 0 0 0 8
Michigan   5 2 2 1 1 24   Virginia 5 1 0 0 0 7
Tennessee 9 5 1 0 0 22   UAB 5 1 0 0 0 7
Gerogetown 9 3 1 1 0 22   Florida St 4 1 0 0 0 6
Oregon 8 3 2 0 0 20   Texas Tech 4 1 0 0 0 6
Missouri 9 2 2 0 0 19   Ohio 3 1 0 0 0 5
Georgia Tech 5 1 1 1 1 19   La Salle 1 1 0 0 0 3
Stanford 9 3 1 0 0 18                

Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men’s_Division_1_Tournament_bids_by_school

Many of us think that Michigan should be a 5 Star destination school because we were a bad call or two away from a National Championship just two years ago.  However, as you can see, we have only played in 5 of the last 16 tournaments, which is surpassed by 55 other schools on this list.  Even in our own conference, Maryland has 8, Purdue 9, Indiana 10, Illinois 11, OSU 12 and Wisconsin and MSU with all 16. We have been kind of late to the party.

Next, I looked at recruiting results.  Since we are talking about the bounce from Michigan’s title game appearance, I only looked at the last three years, 2013, 2014 and 2015. I question how significant 2013 is since that class was probably well put to bed before the tournament was completed.  In fact, 2014 recruiting was well underway already and may have only been partially affected by our near championship.  However, the premise is that we should be benefiting from that run, so onward and upward.

Using 247 Sports Composite Player Rankings for each year, I broke the top 100 ranked players into 4 equal parts.  The A column is for the 1-25 ranked players, B = 26-50, C =51-75 and D = 76-100. The chart lists the teams in the same order as the previous chart (tournament success).  For each of the three years, I recorded how many players each school signed from each A, B, C, D category.  For example, in 2013, Kansas had 3 A players, 2 B players and zero C and D. 

Note: The number of 5* and 4* players varies by year.  In these 3 specific years, 2013 had 23 5* and 4* went to #115, in 2014 there were only 22 5* but 4* went to #124, and in 2015 it is 23 5* and 4* up to 122.  Since I cut it off at 100, not all four-star players will be included in this analysis.

I then assigned a value of 4 points to A players, 3 points to B, 2 to C and 1 point to D players.  Again, an arbitrary system, but it is simple and serves the purpose.  The last three columns show how many top 100 players each school signed over the 3 year period, how many total points they were worth and where each school ranked based on total number of points.  Michigan, which ranked 27 in tournament success, signed 4 top 100 players over the next 3 years, which yielded 10 points and resulted in a ranking of tied for 23. This would suggest that we are having recruiting results that are similar to our tournament success. This analysis is not intended as the final word or to silence the debate, only to add some actual data to the arguments. I think Paul Simon got it right when he penned, “Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”

Note: As of this writing, there are still 8 uncommitted top 100 players in the 2015 class; #3 Jaylen Brown, #9 Thon Maker, #56 Tevin Mack, #82 George Papagiannis, #88 Kobe Eubanks, #89 Kenny Williams and #91 Marcus Lovett.  If we were to get Brown, our total points would increase from 10 to 14 and move us up to a tie for 16th place (assuming other teams remain static).

Chart of Player Rankings by School

 

      2 0 1 3   2 0 1 4   2 0 1 5   # of    
Rank School   A B C D   A B C D   A B C D   Players Pts Rank
1 Michigan State                       2   1     3 10 23t
2 Kansas   3 2       2     1   2         10 35 3
3 Duke   1 2       4         4         1 42 2
4t Kentucky   6         4         2   1     13 50 1
4t Florida   2         1 2           2 1   8 23 7t
6 North Carolina   1   1     2 1                 5 17 13
7 UCON         1   1         1     1   4 10 23t
8 Louisville     1 1       2 1 1     3       9 23 7t
9 Wisconsin                             1   1 1 49t
10 Arizona   2     1   1 1 1     2 1 1     10 31 4
11 UCLA   1   1     1 2         1 1     7 21 10t
12 Butler                                 0 0  
13 Syracuse   1 1   1   1 1         1 2 1   9 23 7t
14 Ohio State     2       1 1 1       3   1   9 25 5t
15 Texas             1           1 1     3 9 29
16 Memphis   1 2   2               1       6 15 15
17 Illinois       2       1         1 1     5 12 19t
18 Maryland     1         1 1 1   1         5 13 17t
19 Oklahoma                                 0 0  
20 Gonzaga                 1               1 2 44t
21t Indiana   1   2 1   1 1       1         7 20 12
21t Villanova         2         2   1         5 8 30t
21t Marquette     2 1         1     1   1     6 16 14
21t West Virginia       2                   1     3 6 33t
25 Oklahoma St       1         1 1     1       4 8 30t
26 Pittsburg         1                   1   2 2 44t
27 Michigan       2   1     1                 4 10 23t
28t Tennessee   1               1             2 5 35t
28t Georgetown         1   1   2       1   1   6 13 17t
30 Oregon                   1     1   1   3 5 35t
31t Missouri     1 1       1 1               4 10 23t
31t Georgia Tech                   1             1 1 49t
33t Stanford   1           1 1 1             4 10 23t
33t Wichita St                                 0 0  
33t Purdue       1 1         1             3 4 39t
36t LSU   1 1 1     1   1     2   1     8 25 5t
36t VCU               1                 1 3 41t
36t Notre Dame     1 1                         2 5 35t
39 Xavier         1     1   1             3 5 35t
40t Cincinnati   1                             1 4 39t
40t N. Carolina St   1   1 1     1 2               6 14 16
42 Iowa St       1 1                       2 3 41t
43t BYU     1 1           1             3 6 33t
43t USC               1 1       1 1     4 10 23t
43t Temple                                 0 0  
46t San Diego St         1       2 1       1     5 8 30t
46t Washington     1                   1 2 1   5 11 21t
48t Kansas St                   1             1 1 49t
48t Utah                 1               1 2 44t
48t Davidson                                 0 0  
48t Dayton                                 0 0  
52t Vanderbilt         1         1             2 2 44t
52t St Josephs                                 0 0  
54t Wake Forrest                           1 1   2 3 41t
54t UNLV     1       2 1       1 1       6 21 10t
54t Boston College                                 0 0  
54t Tulsa                                 0 0  
58t Alabama       1                         1 2 44t
58t Texas A&M                 1       3   1   5 12 19t
60t Virginia                   1             1 1 49t
60t UAB                                 0 0  
62t Florida St     1                 1 1   1   4 11 21t
62t Texas Tech                                 0 0  
64 Ohio                                 0 0  
65 Le Salle                                 0 0  
                                         

There is some interesting date here, if you have the time.  Despite MSU ranking at the top in tournament success, they have only signed 3 top 100 players in this 3-year period, which is still better than Wisconsin who also made every tournament and has signed only one.  It will probably not surprise you to see that Indiana is better at getting talent than using it.  What is up with LSU?

Bonus Michigan Recruiting Chart

 

    247Sports  Composite Player Rankings  
Year 1 to 25 26 to 50 51 to 75 76 to 100  Other
2010       77 Smotrycz 166 Hardaway
          219 Horford
2011       87 Brundidge  
        93 Burke  
2012 16 Robinson 28 McGary   82 Stauskas 171 Albrecht
          215 LeVert
2013   28 Irvin 44 Walton 86 Donnal  
2014   27 Chatman     123 Wilson
          203 Doyle
          326 Dawkins
          385 MAAR
2015         147 Wagner
2016       100 Teske 182 Davis

A few final thoughts.

Butler appeared in back-to-back championship games in 2010 and 2011 and yet has only signed one top 100 player since, #90 Dunham a four star in 2012.  Small bounce.

Maybe star ratings are not worth worrying about.  Some pretty good players who didn’t crack the top 100: #105 Denzell Valentine, #137 Victor Oladipo, #145 Nigel Hayes, #166 Tim Hardaway Jr., #188 Travis Trice, #215 Caris LeVert, #218 Frank Kaminsky and #326 Aubrey Dawkins.

Comments

ThadMattasagoblin

April 29th, 2015 at 1:55 AM ^

Our recruiting hasn't been that bad really. Last year was a little thin with Chatman as the only highly rated guy. In 2013 we had a 5 star in Irvin, 4 star in Walton and Donnal. In 2012, there was GR3 as a 5 star and McGary as a 5 star. 2015 has Wagner as a 4/5 if he was in the states and Jaylen Brown 5 star or 4 star Kenny Williams. Basketball hasn't had the recruiting success as football but that's to be expected. Our school is known for football and is one of the top 8 programs of all time in that sport. We're not pulling in Northwestern classes either. We're not getting four 5 stars every class like Kentucky or Duke but not many people are.

EGD

April 29th, 2015 at 2:43 AM ^

Another factor is that one of Michigan's main selling points--the academics--might not be as important to the 5-star basketball guys looking to turn pro after one or two seasons. It's probably a more significant consideration for the second-tier (and below) prospects who are likely to stay four years, and for football players (who can't go pro for at least three years anyway).

Lanknows

April 29th, 2015 at 1:13 PM ^

2011: slightly below expectation (1 4-star, 1 3-star stolen from penn state, 1 2.5 star stolen from MAC/Illinois)

2012: awesome (Mitch - 5 star, Glenn - 4 star, Nik - 4 star, and two sleepers)

2013: awesome  (3 4-stars)

2014: pretty bad you guys  (5 scholarships and only one guy, maybe two if you count Doyle, who was prioritized by Beilein and are really typical of a top 25 program.)

2015: TBD, but if it's just Wagner that is uncertain but OK for one spot.

 

Obviously I'm ignorning RESULTS, like 8-star Trey Burke vs 2 star Brundidge, but in terms of getting the guys Beilein wanted/offered vs who he ended up with(i.e., looking at recruiting in a vacum) -- the above holds.

MMB 82

April 29th, 2015 at 9:17 AM ^

If you only included the Belein era? In many respects we were pretty dismal prior to his arrival, and that would skew UM's overall results significantly downward.

steviebrownfor…

April 29th, 2015 at 7:54 PM ^

Just using Kenpom/247 composite I found the following from Beilein's teams:

Average KenPom Ranking (starting with Beilein's first team and including last year): 48.7540.625

Average 24/7 Recruiting Ranking (starting with the Novak/Cronin/Stu class, including current class) 40.625

So I'm not sure what people are complaining about...:

 

 

1989 UM GRAD

April 29th, 2015 at 11:03 AM ^

This is great. Interesting to see some of the outliers whose on-court success is not translating to recruiting success...and those whose recruiting success is not resulting in the expected on-court success.

StephenRKass

April 29th, 2015 at 12:06 PM ^

I skimmed part of it, but agree with the conclusions. If I understand you correctly:

  1. Michigan hasn't done all that bad in terms of recruiting.
  2. It isn't just recruiting, when you look at teams that have done very well without many top recruits (for example, MSU, Wisconsin, Butler.)

Thanks again for the read.

Lanknows

April 29th, 2015 at 1:38 PM ^

Michigan should be recruiting more talent not JUST because we have won.  We are not Butler, VCU, or some other new-money, coach-dependant institution where that argument applies.  We have far more than recent success to sell.  We HAVE the academics, the history, the prestige, the fanbase, the exposure, the coaching staff, the facilities, the "resources", etc.  So these "other" things, besides winning, are not a problem for us.  They are an asset.  Michigan should be recruiting BETTER than they have performed, like we do in football.

Michigan has been a very strong basketball program historically and was a premiere/elite program in the late 80s/early 90s that was out-recruiting Kansas/Kentucky.  Yes, I know that Webber/Traylor/Bullock got paid, but that was a blip.  Michigan won before and Michigan won after. Michigan is winning now.

It makes sense to exclude 90s results. I agree that a recruit today doesn't care about the 89 team or the 98 team or whatever else. The Fab 5 still holds cultural cachet, but other than that who cares.  But that same who cares argument also holds for late Ellerbe/early Amaker.  Michigan had to dig out of a hole, but they did that. It's in the past.  In other words, if you're going to argue a recruit doesn't care about 1999, I don't know why you wouldn't also argue he wouldn't care about 2005. Jaylen Brown was 8.

Michigan had great success during periods in the 60s and 70s. They made the tournament almost every year from 1985-1998, including multiple trips to the final four.  Then they didn't make it again until 2009.

Making up half your data based on the 2000-2008 dark years is a problem. The whole point of getting a large enough sample size is to get representative data.  By selecting the last 16 years, which mostly includes the historical bottom of the program and the NCAA sanction period AND the painful cultural rebuild under Amaker, you aren't grabbing a representative sample of Michigan basketball. 

3 years is too small, but 16 years of half outlier is even worse.  I would suggest 40 years or 10 years or 5 years.  Or, for simplicity, start with the Beilein era (2007) when things began to be back to normal.

 

funkywolve

April 29th, 2015 at 5:30 PM ^

What are you basing that on?

He's been a head coach for 11 years - 5 at Xavier and 6 at Arizona.  In those 11 years he has 4 Elite 8 appearances, 6 Sweet 16's and 6 regular season conference championships.  I can buy the argument he isn't Tier 1 because he hasn't made a FF, but if you don't have him in the Tier 1 group of coaches, he's leading the pack of Tier 2.

Spunky

April 30th, 2015 at 1:49 PM ^

I'll have to rein in my delusions of Michigan basketball grandeur after reading this. Also, like others have said, I'd like to see where Michigan ranks using data from the Beilein era only.

ruthmahner

May 3rd, 2015 at 10:00 PM ^

Wow, I love this kind of analysis!  I read the whole thing from beginning to end.  It would be interesting to see how the Beilein era shapes up, but I hope Lanknows is kidding about wanting a 40 year synopsis.  For one thing, it would include how many schools?  Hundreds, I imagine.  And it would take forever to tabulate.  I give a thumbs up to this one.  Great work.  Thanks!