Importance of beating our rivals
I think we can all pretty much agree that Michigan’s top four rivals are OSU, MSU, ND and PSU. I was thinking about this the other day and trying to decide which ones are the most important to beat in 2009 and 2010? I thought it would be interesting to get everyone’s perspective and see how these four rank overall and for giving them a good beating this year and next. Rank the four teams in order of importance and, on a scale of 1-5, 5 being most important, that we beat them in 2009 and in 2010. Of course, Ohio State is the biggest, but the real question is who is number 2, 3 and 4 and why. Also, of these rivals, which ones are most important to defeat in 2009 and why? Which ones, if not all in 2010?
Some of this may seem trivial, but if one assumes that Michigan will not beat each of its four biggest rivals this season, which ones are most important this year and next? The value of the question can be looked at from many different perspectives. Is a “progression” over the course of the season more important or simply beating the best teams? How would certain victories look to pollsters or bowl selection committees? Are bragging rights a major issue, or is it simply pride that makes one game more important than another.
With the debacles of last season still lingering, is revenge a huge factor or is simply ending a losing streak more important? Does the perception that one team is believed to be so much better this season make the game this year less important, but more important next year because we should be better next year? Does the fact that a game is at home make it more important? How much does recruiting affect your choices? There are many reasons why you might choose one over another.
With the longest off-season I can remember, (Nov.-Sept) the idea of which rivalry games are most important to me this season seemed intriguing. Boredom generates some crazy thoughts and this seemed like an interesting topic. Although I could be wrong I did a lot drinking while kayaking on the Kalamazoo River yesterday and my judgment could be very clouded. Lord knows, my head is.
My picks:
2009
1) OSU (5) Must end the streak. Respectability and maintaining this as truly a rivalry is huge
2) MSU (5) The first road game, setting a tone for the conference season and truly gauging the defense
3) ND (4) Need this to start the season right, build confidence and destroy Jimmah and the whale
4) PSU (3) Would like to get this, seems doubtful, but its at home and we have dominated them for so long
2010
1) OSU (5) New Years Day bowl at stake, Restablish our place in the conference
2) ND (5) Will solidify that the program is back
3) MSU (5) Recruiting, bragging rights and keep little brother in place
4) PSU (4) Important for rankings and exposure at their place, and simply HATE happy valley
2011: Win ‘em all MNC dominate college football
we hang 70 on .
With a name like that you should see their playbook. It's a miracle they ever get out of the lockerroom.
I'd like to see their uniforms too.
My picks are as follows:
Beat OSU first. That has to be a No. 1 goal every year right behind winning the Big Ten!
Beat MSU next. We need to establish who is at the top of the heap!
Beat ND next. Irish suck.
Beat Penn State. That will help us once again be at the top of the college rankings where Michigan belongs!
Personally I feel like beating Ohio State is a big priority. It's the rivalry, etc, and Tressel is now 6-1 vs. UM in his tenure at OSU. We need to reverse that. However, I think that as the team starts to rise again, we'll be able to win these games. Regardless of what you say about Rodriguez I think he understands rivalries and hopefully being an outsider he'll be able to plan better against OSU, instead of letting emotions getting the best of him.
1) OSU (Not even close)
2) ND
3) MSU (only because they beat us last year)
4) Bowl game if its vs an SEC team, USC, or Oregon
5) Penn st
This year MSU is the most important in my opinion, for the following reasons:
1. It's very much winnable. Last year we actually stayed in it competitively until the fourth quarter or so. This year, with us being better, and them being (I'd assume) a bit worse off after losing their starting QB and RB, it should be entirely possible to win.
2. Sparty talks a lot of crap, between Dantonio and my coworkers, it would be nice to demonstrate that Michigan Football is by no means "finished".
3. As much as I hate Ohio State, they will be much tougher to beat next year, and besides, what REALLY is the difference between five and six losses? Don't get me wrong, beating them would be great, but losing to them would probably be less devestating than losing to MSU.
Notre Dame, PSU... eh. Without the fumbles Notre Dame would have been in the bag last year, and can be this year. If we're anticipating a 5 to 6 loss season next year, I'd prefer a loss to a team like PSU over Indiana any day.
In 2010:
Ohio State
Penn State (we're winning the Big Ten kids)
Michigan State
Notre Dame
1. Beat OSU.
2. Repeat annually.
If UM is good enough to do this, the rest will fall into place by itself.
Also, these four games every year are why I don't care if UM ever schedules a tough non-con game outside of ND. Unless, of course, ND becomes so putrid that the game ceases to play out like a rivalry game. Then, I would join the chorus of those who want UM to schedule somebody tougher.
Every year, this has to be THE game to win.
2)Got to keep little brother in his place, espescialy since I now have a brother in law staring there in the fall
3)ND, we taught them how to play...worst mistake we ever made :-p
4)PSU, this is just starting to become a rivalry and really isn't that big yet only b/c we've dominated them so much since they came into the Big Ten
I've said it before ... the only thing i find unacceptable is in losing to msu. I can't stand them. I can't stand going home and dealing with state fans after a lose. I can't understand how one legitamite win in 10 years makes them are equals. I can't stand danton'bitch. I can't stand how were "getting dominated" in instate recruit even thou we have the best qb and the rb both prefered. I can't stand how many of there students celebrated on my beloved campus last yr. I can't stand the memory of seeing green celebrate and sing in the big house. This is our most important game every yr. This IS the instate war. Everyone in the state of michigan hates that stinky state to the south. Not to mention losing to O$U is at least a respectable loss. I cant wait till Oct 3 when i shall brave the State student section in michigan gear so i can get my chance to sing the victors and chant smoke green, snort white and about how its great to be a michigan wolverine when we beat them in their house.
Rank (same both yrs)....
1. Michigan State (should never lose)
2. O$U (believe me i still care about this game
3. PSU/Minny (when we play them )/ Wisconsin (Big Ten Games)
4. Touchdown Jesus (important game with tradition but its not a conference game)
i cant stand the memory of clockgate ... this game still haunts me
I wish that this:
"Everyone in the state of michigan hates that stinky state to the south. "
were true. Unfortunately, I live in Lansing (and spent several years living in East Lansing) and it simply isn't. Many of the Spartards regularly cheer for OSU because a) they beat us regularly which State only wishes they could so b) they feel a kinship with OSU fans, since they both hate Michigan. They don't seem to realize that OSU fans hate our entire state and the only distinction they make between schools is the degree of their hatred. That's what makes most State fans so obnoxious, the fact that it truly is more important to most of them that we have a bad season than that they have a good season. There are bumper stickers that you'll see occasionally stating "My two favorite teams are Team X and whoever beats Rival of Team X". For most state fans, the order of importance there is reversed.
Because of how annoying they are, it's a toss-up between beating them and OSU. It's sort of a fine line between I'd rather beat OSU, but I'd rather not lose to MSU. For 2009 I'd rank it:
1. MSU
2. OSU
3. ND
4. PSU
I don't want another year of the sports media going on about State's "dominance". Two years in a row would do that. And I would rather not give Jimmah! and Charlie the satisfaction of another win over us. But for 2010:
1. OSU
2. MSU
3. PSU
4. ND
Absolutely no reason we shouldn't win the Big 10 in 2010 and the first step to winning a Big 10 title is beating OSU. After that, everything else is just a notch on the belt.
You've got a great point. The concept of the rivalry, at least as in most OSU fans eyes, is that these two states, perhaps out of sheer similarity, are diametric opposites. Wearing Tigers, Red Wings, Pistons or Lions merchandise in Ohio will usually provoke some kind of reaction...many Indians, Blue Jackets and Cavs fans will call the Detroit teams their biggest rivals. Woody Hayes never said "I don't want to stop for gas in Ann Arbor"... he was in Monroe County when he famously quipped he wouldn't pay sales tax in Michigan.
While there are a great many Michigan fans who hold this same view of the rivalry, I doubt if the majority in Michigan see it that way. To the average State fan OSU is, as you say, an ally. To the casual fan, the State game probably means more than the Ohio State game anyway.
EDIT: By the way, the average OSU fan, in my experience, thinks everyone in the state of Michigan loves us like most in Ohio love the Buckeyes. They're very surprised to find out that hating Ohio is not something all Michiganders are bred for.
people from Michigan. One day on 97.1, Terry Foster was talking about how we have this need to be "important" but we don't decide what important is. We let other people decide what it is. Therefore, while Cleveland should be our biggest sports rival, it's almost as if we convince ourselves that they aren't that big of a deal. We'd rather be heated rivals with the Yankees and Red Sox. For real though, I doubt those fan bases care much about the Tigers. The White Sox rivalry fits the bill of what we're looking for because Chicago is a big market. However, I still hate Cleveland more than any other sports town out there. That rivalry was MADE for Detroit. Don't get me wrong, I hate Chicago too, but there is just something about Cleveland.
That's pretty much true for most rivalries. If we're being honest, the rivalries where both sides care equally are the minority.
MSU fans aren't hated by Buckeyes. They are classy, and respected.
"I can't stand going home and dealing with state fans after a lose. I can't understand how one legitamite win in 10 years makes them are equals."
1) Dealing with a "lose" is always tough.
2) MSU has three "legitamite" wins in the last 10 years: http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/opp-opp.pl?start=1999&end=2…
No matter how hard you try to confront us with the scores of the game, there are quite a few of us who will never believe that 1999 or 2001 were "legitimate." I'm not one of them, but it isn't worth you time trying to convince the others with your fancy "statistics" and "facts."
August 3rd, 2009 at 12:31 AM ^
I don't think there are many Michigan fans who will dispute that MSU won the '99 game fairly. I wish Carr would have ditched the 2-QB rotation before that game (I definitely think our chances would have been greater had Brady played the entire game) but that's on us, not MSU or the officials.
Now 2001, that's another story. The fact that the Big Ten adopted neutral timekeepers for the next season says it all.
I totally agree with jmblue. A bad call by a Big Ten employee? Those happen to varying degrees every game. Clear rule breaking by a school employee to help his/her team? Very, very different story. So while State has three Ws in the past decade, they've only "beaten" us twice.
Not according to the Big Ten:
" The Big Ten Conference ultimately upheld Stehlin's timekeeping; three years later, Dave Parry, the conference's coordinator of football officials, said, 'That play, as much as we've put that under a high-powered microscope, was correct. We could not prove that timer wrong.' "
Clear rule breaking sounds like this:
http://www.maizenbluenation.com/2008_10_01_archive.html
' Jim Delany: "The people in the replay booth made a mistake. It wasn’t a mistake of judgment; it was a mistake of an application of the rule. They applied the wrong rule and they applied it improperly.”
The rule is that when a player catches the ball in the air and his foot comes down on the pylon, he is out of bounds. So when you're in the air when you first posses the ball, the pylon is out. When you posses the ball in bounds, the pylon is considered the endzone.
“I expect more from them than that. You can understand a mistake of judgment on the field, and you can even understand possibly not getting the standard right because we want indisputable video evidence that a play is wrong. But to apply the wrong rule to a situation is not acceptable to me.” '
August 3rd, 2009 at 12:51 PM ^
Delany's actions (adopting neutral timekeepers for the 2002 season) give the lie to that PC sound bite. He won't come out and say "the wrong team won." That's too controversial for his tastes. (OTOH, the 2008 call was easy for him to second-guess, because it didn't affect the outcome.)
That's a nice conspiracy theory, but I'll stick with the explanation favored by Occam's razor. The play was correct, they couldn't prove it wrong, but they (wisely) changed the rule anyway to prevent it from becoming an issue and to stop the complaints.
You're nuts if you think that pylon TD would have gone unaddressed had it affected the outcome. There was no room for misinterpretation. It was blatantly wrong, and an apology from the Big Ten would have been necessary despite the controversy.
But there's simply no evidence to suggest the clock should have run out. I just watched that part of the video on Youtube several times; if the clock showed fractions of a second, my guess is there would have been about a quarter of a second left when the ball was spiked, maybe a little bit more. Hard to tell exactly, because the audio was out of sync with the video (the announcers are counting down nearly half a second ahead of the clock on the video). It's pretty clear that the ball hit the ground with time to spare; the only question is how fast the timekeeper's reflexes are (0.2 seconds is a fairly typical reaction time), so you're talking about a tenth of a second either way. That's why there was no evidence of impropriety found - either possible outcome would have been well within the normal range of reaction times.
For what it's worth, trying to time it myself from the 9-second mark (which is difficult since you have to get the clock started at exactly the time the seconds on the game clock change), I get pretty consistently within the range of 8.85 to 9.05 seconds depending on how accurate I am on the start, which is consistent with what I found above - it could have gone either way without resorting to malice as an explanation.
The change to neutral timekeepers can easily be explained as a step to prevent the potential for such a situation to arise again, whether it had already impacted a game or not. It probably hadn't occurred to anyone that it could make a difference before - how many times had a tenth of a second mattered before? How many since?
(On top of that, the officials ran too much time off the clock before assessing the too-many-men penalty on the play before; there should have been about four seconds left when the ball was spiked anyway. Somehow, nobody ever remembers that.)
can we say, 5th grade?
As a fan there is nothing I want more than to beat tosu, but in terms of reestablishing our program and having a successful season, they are not the must win game.
We have to beat ND to start of the season with momentum and show everybody that we are back. If we are going to make a bowl game, we need to win this game.
Beating State is important in terms of elevating ourselves to the upper half of the Big Ten. This will be a measuring stick game for our team.
Beating tosu is important in the sense that it is always important, but I believe that even if we were to lose this game, it could still be considered a successful season.
PSU would be a great victory in front of the home crowd and would show that we are ready to compete at the top of the Big Ten, but like tosu, is not important for us to have a successful season.
I agree, it is most important for us to beat ND the 2nd week of the season. This will give our team the confidence and moxy needede to take on the other rivals later in the season. Lose to ND, and they may struggle to get that swagger back going into the big games. Plus I don't think anyone outside of our fan base expects us to beat the other three, but ND is viewed as a winnable game for UM.
OSU 1 MSU 2.....
snore.................
August 2nd, 2009 at 10:18 PM ^
Beat everyone. Boom, problem solved!
August 3rd, 2009 at 10:01 AM ^
I know that since RR came in, being perceived as the Big Dawg in Michigan in terms of recruiting and stature seems to have taken a back seat to the national scene. But I believe you start in your own back yard, and for Rodriguez and a staff that seem to be on tenuous footing, beating Michigan State this year is of the utmost importance. Then, keeping that frame of mind going, beating Notre Dame comes second.
I say you pick the battles you KNOW you can win and concentrate all your Positive Michigan Fan Energy here. Those battles are the MSU and ND games because the other two teams still appear to be significantly better than Michigan, and the perception is that UM doesn't stand a chance anyway. I know it's weird, and the prevailing opinion seems to be that MSU is still "Lil Bro" and irrelevant, and that Notre Dame is still coached by the Worst Guy Ever, but before UM thinks about tangling with the Big Boyz, they, IMO, must show they are over the MSU-ND hump--and those games, as someone else said, were almost winnable even last year with the worst UM team ever.
I think it's incremental: Right now, UM's biggest rival is themselves; put a competing product out there that won't shoot itself in the foot. Move on to beating the five teams you absolutely should beat; then pick two to three that if you do beat, show the public something. Those three games are ND, MSU, and Iowa.
Going into the OSU game, if UM has shown they have done all that I have listed previously, The Game will be up for grabs. And yeah, beating OSU in the last game would be huge, I know. Combine that with the Lawr of Averages--and anything could happen. But I'd really, REALLY take 2-2 this year vs the Big Four as long as ONE of those is against MSU. Again, though, realistically, the best chances are MSU and ND and I think those two victories would provide not just a morale boost, but a good, steadying effect.
August 3rd, 2009 at 12:59 PM ^
+1
As sad as it is to say, UM is still a year or two away from challenging either OSU or PSU consistently. ND is not as good as (some) people think, and MSU still strikes me as a mediocre Big 10 team that can ride a favorable schedule to a decent bowl game every 2-3 years. UM needs to beat ND and MSU this year, then worry about OSU and PSU in 2010 and especially 2011.
You cannot begin to appreciate just how obnoxious it has been to sit here in Ohio through the last several football seasons watching the front runner TOSU fans gloat over beating UM. During the Cooper era, they were quiet--it was fun watching them beat themselves up emotionally after each loss. I never gloated because it isn't my style. But it sure didn't take them long to start gloating once the tide turned. TOSU fans as a group must be the crudest, most contemptible group around--even more so than the ND fans around here. And way more so than the MSU fans I have known. Personally, it has always seemed to me to be the residue of a huge inferiority complex, which TOSU students certainly have every right to feel. If you don't beat TOSU the season sucks; nothing else matters.
I thought you were serious. "I never gloated because it isn't my style." - Oh, so YOU were the ONE...
I have a differing thoughts on this. I think, in general, the order of importance for the rivalries you listed are:
(1) TOSU
(2) MSU
(3a) PSU (and every other Big Ten team)
(3b) ND
The ND rivalry has been good in years past, so I agree that it should be included. But until they get their brains on straight join the B10, they'll never be as important as OSU or MSU. The B10 matters. Theoretically, a team could lose 4 OOC games, still win the B10, and go to a BCS Bowl. So the B10 takes precedence.
As for Penn State, I'm kinda torn about their status as a true rival. They are historically a good team, but since their entry into the B10, we've dominated them. As a fan, I don't feel a rivalry with PSU any more than I do with Wisconsin, Illinois, or Iowa (although, ironically, moreso than with Minnesota; a jug does not a rivalry make when one side doesn't ever win). All of the B10 views Michigan as it's rival, but the favor is not so generously returned by us.
"Rival" is an elite (at times illogical) status. It always feels good to beat OSU and MSU no matter how good/bad they are. We console ourselves in poor seasons with "well, at least we beat the Bucknuts and/or the Spartans". Do we say that about PSU (any more than we do about Wisconsin, for example)?
2009: as has been said, it's most important this year to win at all. So, the most win-able (and therefore most important) games are:
(5) ND ... home game, hopefully we have enough to win
(3) MSU ... road game (our first), tall order to get a win, but they need to replace their entire offense
(3) OSU ... home game, biggest rival, a whole season to get ready, nothing to lose, everything to play for
(1) PSU ... home game, but also the best of the bunch without the real rival status
2010: I go with something more akin to my general outlook.
(5) OSU ... road game, the most important game of our season
(5) MSU ... home game, the most winnable game of the bunch
(4) PSU ... road game, new QB for them, hopefully that works in our favor, and we own Penn State (right?)
(2) ND ... road game, very winnable, just not very important b/c they're not in the B10
Well I disagree that PSU is #4. Make them earn their respect by winning two more years in a row, then we can talk. I'd put Wisconsin there. MSU at least has the in-state factor, which is a big one in making me still care about them.
Anyways, my priorities:
1 - OSU. Record streak going into this year, and they will be very good. If we can beat OSU this year we are officially back.
2 - ND. I normally care more about MSU, but they are the most achievable trophy win this year. Due to a sucky schedule, they could easily pick up 9 wins by not sucking, and we'd have that that to brag about. A good time to see if we can still sack with BG double teamed and see if our QBs don't suck.
3 - MSU. We've got enough wins to be okay for awhile, but they are still one of our main rivals. I doubt they will improve over last year, but still a decent scalp if we can pull it off.
4 - PSU. Really doesn't have anything to do with anything, other than being a good team.
How achievable they are:
1 MSU, 2 ND, 3 OSU, 4 PSU
I might consider swapping MSU and ND, but MSU should have a terrible offense this year, so they should be easier even on the road. PSU is tougher than OSU because we get them earlier. Playing time will be essential for Tate/Denard to emerge as college level quarterbacks.
I also think we will go between 0-4 and 1-3 against these teams, although I'd be happy to be wrong.
I don't understand what you're saying about Penn State. You said: "Well I disagree that PSU is #4."
And then you ranked them #4, both in terms of your priorities and in terms of acheivability.
Did you mean Wisonsin should be #4 instead?
We go against them in recruiting. Especially at important positions such as QB and LB. Not to mention that they have the clout to be a major recruiting force in Penn... a place that we still need to look to get big time talent.
Also we have enjoyed a decade of dominance over them and it would be a shame to end it.
I was going by the original set of four teams, for sake of comparison. Wisconsin should be #4. They would be about as tough as ND, based on being an away game and the intimidation factor for a true freshman quarterback. Mallett was none too pretty in Camp Randall in 2007, despite being non-terrible during his first start in Michigan Stadium.
rivals includes them. Until last season we owned PSU, and the game has meant a lot in determing bowl games and rankings, but an argument certainly can be made for Wisconsin, although I have never gotten the feeling that Wisco gets people as stirred up as PSU.
For my money, OSU is so far out in front, I can't describe it.(Every time I see some wearing tosu gear I get really pissed off). MSU is a distant second and wouldn't be that if not for Dantonio raising them from the dead.
I hate ND almost as much as tosu because of their "better than the rest" attitude and they get a free pass because "they're ND" so they get a BCS spot if their record is even close. Hell, right now the only schools that "deserve" their own TV contract would be Florida or USC based on productivity in the last 5-8 years.
I want to destroy ND, go up to MSU and wipe the floor with Dantonio's clowns and get to 7-0 when PSU comes to town. They might not be so cocky then.(By the way JoPa needs to retire, he's just a figurehead anyway).
This DAMN season can't get here soon enough. (Those highlights from the Cap 1 Bowl got the juices flowin', LET'S GET THIS THING STARTED!
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