I too think that Hankins probably should have been offered. However, I think that there is a potential here for a Dan O'Neill type situation where after enduring Barwis for a season, he simply quits the team or transfers or something. RichRod does not want to offer any athletes too far behind the conditioning curve, as this creates long term problems, such as higher rates of transfers which hurts the team APR and wastes scholarships.
DT Johnathon Hankins and RR Recruiting
There has been a lot of talk about RR's recruiting efforts, especially on defense. When the 2010 class arrives at Michigan there will have 3 DTs and a converted FB on scholarship. So how can RR no offer a DT from Detroit with offers from both O$U and Oklahoma? Hankins has been rumored to really like Michigan and would commit with an offer. It seems that RR is being more picky than we would be led to think.
With no bowl game to prepare for RR was able to get the recruiting process for 2010 in full swing earlier than he or anyone else wanted. This led to him offering approximately 160 recruits. This was pretty inconsistent with the way Michigan usually does business. I don't think RR offered that many players in 2009. Having that many offers to fill about 20-22 scholarships would seem reckless. This even led to RR telling a player he had offered that would have to wait and could not commit immediately. A lot of this is the result of such a subpar 2008 season that will hopefully not continue in the future. So it seems that RR has offered many more recruits then he needs, possibly some he really doesn't want, yet still no offer for Jonathon Hankins at a position of great need.
Word from the camp where the Hankins offer was decided is that he was still out of shape. Hankins was told to work on his conditioning and a offer could still be issued. So RR has offered over 160 recruits but not one in his back yard with offers from top schools. What gives? RR always talks about how he and Barwis want kids who love football and want to work hard. I am totally for that but at the same time you have to be a pragmatist. Isn't it better to gamble that Barwis can fix Hankins instead of taking a lesser talent? Its also possible that RR is holding out the offer like a carrot to motivate him, but that seems inconsistent with the slew offers he gave out.
For the most part people believe that RR knows what he is doing on offense and with recruiting on that side of the ball. The defense is more in the hands of GERG and other assistant coaches. I don't know much recruiting is delegated and whatnot but it is safe to say RR is not a proven defensive recruiter yet.
Tell Drew Dileo and the other 5 receiver recruits to work for an offer.
If Hankins is good enough for Ohio State and Oklahoma, whos' programs are way ahead of Michigan's at this point in time, then he should be good enough for Michigan.
And unlike Dann O'Neill, where he was buried on the depth chart, Hankins would be guaranteed to contribute as a freshman, considering he would probably be in the two deep if we run a 4-3 defense.
Defensive line is the thinnest area on the team. We brought in a ton of DB talent last year, we don't need any slot receivers in my opinion, and linebacker is not as bad as we think it is.
Okay I'm finished with my rant. lol
The WR's don't have to compete for the scholarships. The coaches don't have questions about their motivation and desire. His conditioning was something they were obviously concerned about, so much that they did not offer him. I have stated this on other posts to this same topic but I'll repeat, what good does it do for us as a TEAM if he comes in for four years and doesn't bust his ass. Now I'm not saying that's an absolute certainty, however, the staff's way of testing his desire and motivation was to see if he could get in shape, which they beat into him during the 4 straight downs where he had to walk off the field, unable to finish. The staff doesn't think he is worthy of an offer. 'Nuff said.
Got here the depth chart was a mess... He just flat out bombed (like most 4/5* players coming from Michigan). So I don't really see how you can say that O'Neill was buried on the depth chart when he's a soph and TRUE FRESHMAN are beating him out..
From what I heard from talking with people that know him/other football players he just sat around all day in West Quad eating food and playing video games... That doesn't sound like someone that RR wants on the team.
That Drew Dileo and the other 5 receiver recruits DIDN'T work for an offer? Obviously the coaching staff liked something about them that they don't about Hankins or else Jonathon would have an offer right now.
What makes you so sure that Hankins "would be guaranteed to contribute as a freshman?" Because he has offers from OSU and Oklahoma? He might commit to one of those schools and never see the field, like Dann O'Neill.
And as others have stated, O'Neill, by all accounts, was lazy. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps he was buried on the depth chart because he wasn't very good? Probably not because he was a 4* recruit who was good enough for offers from Florida State and Nebraska!
You sound like Rivals/Scout type that John Beilein suggested needed therapy. You know, the Miami Hurricanes once recruited like you want RichRod to, by focusing on the top kids from these scouting services rather than doing their own homework. Why don't you see how that turned out for them...
Miami recruiting coordinator Clint Hurtt said, "We spent way too much time recruiting off [Internet] lists and finding these top guys instead of truly evaluating. You can't just go off hearsay or just because Florida, Florida State or Alabama is recruiting him. That doesn't mean a thing."
Gee, sounds like someone around here...
I'm sorry if I offended you, but even Brian legitimizes recruits by looking at offer sheets. And as for the Miami recruiting coordinator, recruiting is probably the last of Miami's problems. Not to mention, the situation with Hankins is totally different considering it is a position of dire need, and getting a DT that is good enough to have offers from OSU and Oklahoma is better than not having a DT at all. Don't forget, DT recruits are slim across the country this year, so we don't have many options to begin with.
Also, I am not sure how my previous post made me sound like a "Rivals/Scout type that John Beilein suggested needed therapy," but have you considered therapy? Maybe anger management? If a person's post on an internet blog gets you that upset, maybe you should take some time off to clear your head.
Not sure why you feel he has anger management issues -- he was simply disagreeing with your post and refuted several of your points. You shouldn't mistake disagreement for anger.
Plus, he makes good points. Why do you assume the committed receivers did not "work for an offer"? Or is that pure speculation? Presumably, RR offered them for a reason, and RR similarly chose not to offer Hankins for a reason. Also, on a side note, I find your comment "we don't need any slot receivers in my opinion" to be interesting. Currently, the only true slot receivers on the team are Odoms and Robinson. Roundtree and Stokes are slot/split end type players, and Gallon has not qualified yet. Let's allow RR to decide these things.
Also, offering players simply based on their other offers is just as bad a strategy, in my opinion, as offering players based on their star rating. And as was mentioned, perhaps those other schools can afford to wait for a player like Hankins to develop; given Michigan's reluctance to offer him, I assume it is far from certain that he would "be guaranteed to contribute as a freshman." And even if he would play because of poor depth, who's to say that a different recruit would not perform better? And isn't that the real issue?
Hi Mr. Hankins.
Seriously though, how much do you know about Hankins that you're this upset? (I really want to know) What does OSU and Oklahoma offering the kid have to do with us offering?
D'oh! I just got the "Hi, Mr. Hankins" comment. Worth a point! Tom, you can now retire.
From everything I have read about and heard from Coach Rodrigues is that part of building the program here is as much about culture change as it is about any one individual athlete. I get the sense that as important as "stars" are, equally important is the character of the young man. Does he have the temperment to endure Barwis for 1-2 years without seeing the field in a game? How hungry is he? How teachable is he? Can he play fast, as in fast game tempo fast? I get the sense that Coach is inclined to pass up a star here or there to get "his guys," and that his goal is to assemble the best possible group of "his guys" as possible. I am sure the ESPN or Rivals or Scout ranking of the class is less important than the culture he can create with the guys.
Once his culture is in place, I suspect he will be in a much better position to take a risk on a highly rated superstar, knowing that once the young man gets here any prima donna tendancies will be curbed by the team culure he has created. Coach Rodrigues' record in the past of turing around programs is proven and he has turned groups of athletes ranked in the mid 30's into teams that are consistantly ranked in the top 15. To be honest, on the whole, I like what I see with the guys he is bringing in and look forward to good things.
Thumbs up for your post. Highly agree
I remember an anecdote about his WVU teams sprinting down the field to their positions after the 3rd Quarter, just to psyche out the other team (and because they just weren't tired yet). From what I know, that just isn't normal for a football team to be willing and able to sprint--from the cornerback to the nose tackle--going into the 4th quarter. That's what RichRod wants. And yeah, I'd like to see that too.
With that said, I'm not going to claim I know anything about this kid or why he doesn't have an offer.
He's not rated by Rivals (not that this is definitive) and is reported to be over 320 pounds. Perhaps RR does not feel he possesses the skills to offset the weight issue.
I am only offering a possible rationale, not blindly defending RR. The OSU and OK offers DO speak volumes. I like local kids that like us, but Hankins is clearly not a four or five star stud. He's a bit of a project. Perhaps OSU and OK are comfortable with such a project.
In short, I don't know. But his size and current anonymous rating suggest I not overreact here.
If Hankins really likes Michigan as he claims in interviews, he'll remain uncommitted, working on his conditioning, and prove to the coaches that he can make it through out S&C program. Could we gamble that Barwis could get Hankins into shape as needed? Sure, but what if Hankins can't get into shape and contribute until his junior or senior year? DL depth isn't all that great, and we need guys who can contribute early. Well established teams like Oklahoma and OSU can take a flier on Hankins as they have good DL depth and can afford to take the time to get Hankins into shape and develop him. The staff also may feel that they are in good position with Sharrif Floyd (top 5 DT on both recruiting sites) and may keep Hankins as a backup plan. Long way to go with recruiting.
I think those offers from OU and OSU are bogus or at best were to entice his teammate Gholston. You should also ask yourself, why hasn't MSU offered? So the two schools that have probably seen him in more games and have seen him in person at camp have both said thanks but no thanks and moved on. That should speak volumes.
Apparently the OSU offer is bogus, FWIW. Which may be another reason he's not getting an offer.
I agree with some of what you are saying but there could be any number of reasons he doesn't have an offer. Based on what many were saying about Campbell coming in out of shape and in need of conditioning he must be in pretty bad shape if that is all that is holding him back. He could have off the field issues or just may not fit the scheme on defense.
If his relationship with Gohlston is as strong as it sounds they may not feel he will end up at UM. Though he doesn't appear to have a MSU offer yet either.
It's difficult to really know the true reasoning behind situations like this.. If we could ask Rodriguez and his staff what they've got planned, I would love to hear them answer. But we, as a fanbase, have to trust in what they're doing, and hope it works out. Recruiting is so hit-and-miss it's too difficult to predict, especially when NSD is 7 months away.
"Word from the camp where the Hankins offer was decided is that he was still out of shape. Hankins was told to work on his conditioning and a offer could still be issued."
You could have stopped there. If Hankins can't meet goals that RR/Barwis set for him in order to receive an offer (which is a 4 year commitment and represents a big investment on both sides) what makes you think he'd be more responsive to meeting goals once he's on the team?
Bottom line: If you're not willing to put in the work to earn something you really, really want, would you put in the amount of work necessary to keep it once you had it?
You can't expect a 16- or 17-year-old kid to lose weight, eat right, and exercise right on his own. A lot of kids try but they just don't know what they're doing. Just because Hankins wasn't in Barwis-type shape doesn't mean he wasn't working on his conditioning.
From what I heard, Hankins was up around 330 and got down to around 310 before the Michigan camp. I'd say that's a pretty good sign of commitment.
Unless you're arguing that RichRod/Barwis gave the kid completely unreasonable goals your post doesn't make much sense. Sorry.
You asked "If Hankins can't meet goals that RR/Barwis set for him in order to receive an offer... what makes you think he'd be more responsive to meeting goals once he's on the team?"
Magnus basically replied, the help of a professional strength and conditioning staff.
Your bottom line was that Hankins wasn't "willing to put in the work", but if reports say that Hankins has lost twenty pounds, but has not made the requisite gains in conditioning, it's a more reasonable conclusion that he has put in the work the best he knows how. With the help of a professional S&C staff his efforts would be better directed and yield better results.
Original comment by me:
"You could have stopped there. If Hankins can't meet goals that RR/Barwis set for him in order to receive an offer (which is a 4 year commitment and represents a big investment on both sides) what makes you think he'd be more responsive to meeting goals once he's on the team?"
"Magnus basically replied, the help of a professional strength and conditioning staff."
Me: So are you saying the goals were unreasonable?
You: "Your bottom line was that Hankins wasn't "willing to put in the work", but if reports say that Hankins has lost twenty pounds, but has not made the requisite gains in conditioning, it's a more reasonable conclusion that he has put in the work the best he knows how. With the help of a professional S&C staff his efforts would be better directed and yield better results."
So, once again, unless the requisite gains were unreasonable (and yes, if RichRod and Barwis made the gains dependent on having a professional S&C staff work with Hankins that would be unreasonable) then Hankins didn't put in the work. I'm not arguing that he didn't put in a lot of effort. I'm saying that he didn't meet whatever bar was put in place for him. Whether or not that bar was reasonable needs to be known before we can judge if a professional S&C coach is necessary.
Neither of us can say whether RichRod/Barwis' goals were unreasonable because neither of us know the specifics of Hankins' situation nor the specific goals Rich Rod gave him. It's possible the staff isn't acquainted with exactly what resources Hankins has available to him either.
What chafes me so much about this thread is that so many posters have wantonly assumed that the expectations were indeed reasonable without knowing any of the information above and, in the course of doing so, have publicly implied a high school kid is lazy and/or unmotivated. Posters seem more interested in maintaining the infallibility of the coaching staff than in giving a kid they don't know the benefit of the doubt. My argument relies only on reserving judgment on whether the staff's goals for Hankins were reasonable, it doesn't require establishing that they indeed weren't.
Last year we were all discussing two DT's (Pearlie Graves and DeQuinta Jones) who were wavering about their commitments. I remember discussion that RRod should do everything possible to keep them but didn't mind letting them go elsewhere. Both ended up being rated only #66 and #80 DT's. Maybe Hankins who [whom- can't remember] isn't that great a catch either. If Gerg is running a 3-4 defensive front they may want a completely different kid. Obviously Campbell is a specimen and you take him ho matter what scheme you run- maybe not true for Hankins. Hopefully Hankins gets in shape-Michigan offers- and he turns out to be a stud- I always want to see kids succeed.
in the who/whom conundrum is: neither. Drop both and you're in business.
-1 for the use of "O$U"
Maybe that will be a new rule for me, anyone using "O$U" or "U$C" and certainly "scUM" and "DickRod" is automatically docked a point.
I think this demonstrates a common fallacy, which results from recruiting being so popular it rivals the actual sport. It is similar to the way people think good fantasy teams = good real-life teams. They correlate significantly, but there are differences.
People think that we need a certain number of guys at each position, based on the position designation provided by Scout/Rivals. We have a dearth of guys with "DT" next to their name, ergo we need to recruit the highest rated guy with a "DT" next to his name that we possibly can.
That is not how we are recruiting for this defense. The new defensive line essentially has a nose, an interior DE, a true DE, and a rush linebacker. If you think that for a nose, at least, we want a giant mound of flesh, consider that Mike Martin is currently there. We are not looking for guys we can nickname "fridge." (Big Will is huge, but very athletic.) Our interior lineman need to be able to stunt and we want them penetrating.
Hankins to me looks like a great DT of the giant run-stopping kind. He may be very effective for someone playing a standard 4-3 with two gap eating DTs that are there to clog lanes. Unfortunately, that is not our scheme. Should we take him for the PR boost? To keep him from State?
I like what I read about this kid and wish he was a fit, but the staff clearly believes he is not. Look at who we are pursuing and you will see we are either recruiting the faster guys within a position or guys at a "smaller" position to play one position "bigger." C->S->OLB->DE->DT This tells the story on Hankins, who is on the bigger/slower side of a position that is already "biggest."
the three-man front factor could cut the other way, though. you might say you want an even bigger NT when you've only got three down linemen, because he needs to eat even more people than each DT in the four-man front.
knew that RR and staff liked him but wanted him to work on conditioning before he showed up at camp. RR came at him 4 or 5 plays at a time and he was gassed by the fourth play. Not a great showing considering you had a few months to prepare to show what you have at camp. You dont want him quiting after a year because he cant hanle Barwis.
I think in the end we offer and get him once he starts showing his commitment.
I agree, reports from camp challenged him directly with those 4 downs in a row and he simply couldn't respond unlike some other less recruited players. On a side-note that can be an indicator of desire/love for football. You have a kid who knew what he had to do to earn the offer and couldn't. Now I don't know if this is a result of him having a condition or an inability to lose weight quickly or him just not putting his best foot forward. I don't know about you guys, but I for one know how difficult it is to lose a few pounds after getting out of shape. A few months is a start but for those of you who thought he was gonna drop 30 lbs and come in a new man, that is not to be expected. That being said, there is still a ridiculous amount of time until signing day, and one more season for him to play, so we'll see what kind of shape he can get into during the playing season and if he can maintain it afterward. We got plenty of time fellas.
i think i appreciate rr sticking to his guns. if he says a guy has to demonstrate a dedication to getting in shape in order to earn an offer, then i'm happy to see him hold out when he sees fit. you can't be making exceptions, and if you're going to hold everyone to the same high conditioning standards, taking a guy who you don't think will stick with it is a waste of a scholarship and a waste of the kid's time.
part of it may also be that they're waiting for senior season to see if more DT prospects emerge, which certainly can happen.
plus we're still hot on the trail of sharif floyd, who would be an AWESOME catch
than we already have 1 true 5 star nose tackle. I'm in the camp that says RR and Co. know the type of athletes they have and want on this team, so I don't get my panties in a bunch about instate versus out-of-state recruits. I saw let RR get his true 4 classes under his belt and I will judge him after that but it is way to early to draw conclusions about this staff's recruiting.
Is there a way to measure the "love" of playing football?
Yes, you simply measure his intangibles! Shockfx learned me that.
Where do you go to get a tape measure for "intangibles?"
I think that's in the "beyond" section of Bed, Bath, and Beyond. It's right behind the true universal remote, but if you can't find it, I'm sure Christopher Walken can help you find it.
GBMW on line superstore, they are having a BIG sale.
These are kids. Don't just give them everything they want. Make him work for the freaking offer. If Hankins really wants to come to Michigan, he should know he has no more than half a year to do what the coaches asked of him. I have pride in our team and university, so I'd rather RichRod have some principles.
With a limited number of scholarships available Rodriguez and co. are starting to slow play some recruits. Hankins is one of them. They know that if they offer he will commit and at this time it seems that they would rather take the risk of a lesser talent against the reward of a stud such as PA DT Shariff Floyd. That is assuming that the U of M coaches see Hankins as a good talent, which they may or which they may not. To this point I refer you to the post from "me" with whom I agree:
"You should also ask yourself, why hasn't MSU offered? So the two schools that have probably seen him in more games and have seen him in person at camp have both said thanks but no thanks and moved on. That should speak volumes." (sorry for copying and pasting what you wrote, but I agreed so much that I had to repeat it)
Attitude is the most important thing in RR's football vocabulary. If he saw some sort of lack of will at camp, that's probably what caused him to tell the guy to come back later. RR wants kids who will work hard at football and at school, not just that want to blow the whole thing off. If he gets in shape, depending how fast, it may prove to RR that he has the right attitude. If a kid is willing to work hard to gain the maize and blue, and shows the right attitude, and is good at what he does, he will be more willing to stick around and do it all for the entirety of his eligibility. Look for RR's early entry #'s to drop a little compared to Carr's.
If he wants to come to michigan he will work his ass off to get in shape and get an offer...If he doesn't, we probably don't need him anyway
I don't know Hankins. But I continue to be convinced that too many people follow HS athletes in Michigan, and think they should be given the benefit of the doubt, that less should be expected of them, or that they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. RR & his staff see too many athletes to believe this. And camp competition is def the way to see someone for yourself.
A) Student in question hasn't done enough to earn an offer in the coach's estimation.
B) Coach is unaware that there is talent in state.
The current regime is second-guessed far too much. We'll be hearing variants of "Argh This ain't the Big East" until the cows come home.....
There is a reason RR didn't offer him and we just need to live with that. If it's conditioning then it's conditioning. There could be a 100 reasons.
RR knows what he is doing.
I really like that coach is making this kid work for an offer. Instead of the player picking the school, RR is making the player show that he wants to go to UM before he gives him the scholarship. There probably isn't another coach in the nation who is willing to say no 335lb DT's who want to come to their school. It will either light a fire under him, or it won't. Then we will offer, or we won't. Win/win situation. RR turned the tables on this guy.
One season I unexpectedly had two of my upper class DTs bolt to the NFL, and I only had one on the roster. So I offered a bunch of DTs, but refrained from offering an instate 2* DT. Eventually I offered him but couldn't sign him. I ended up only having 3 DTs on my roster. In hindsight, I probably should have offered him right away.
So yeah, I can see how this is a problem for RichRod.
This reminds me of a FJM classic line:
Baker's Cubs went for it that year. They had a postseason in their reach, they had the right pitchers for the job, and those men wanted the ball - all night, if that's what it meant. People can sit around adjusting their spectacles and analyzing, but they have no idea how it feels to actually compete.
I'll have you know that I once pitched six grueling innings with a sore toe in a little league game against Rent-a-Wreck in 1988. I gave up four runs but also drove in three with a 3-R bomb to left off Dave Forgione. We won 19-4. Then my mom took me for ice cream. So, yeah, I think I know how to compete.
Hankins was in camp. RR had plenty of opportunity to watch this kid and evaluate him. Maybe there's more to the recruitment aspect than what we read on the recruiting boards. I think RR has a better idea of what he wants and/or needs than those of us posting on the fan sites. Who knows maybe Hankins will still end up blue. But I don't want him if RR doesn't.