Defense - Football Position Group Analysis Next 2 Years

Submitted by alum96 on

We looked at offense in a prior post, today we'll switch sides. As outlined previously:

...this an overview of UM Football position by position (as a group not player by player) for 2015 and 2016 so we can have a little bit of an understanding of what is coming down the pike.   Of course going out even 1 year is fraught with unknowns (who will bust, who will come out of nowhere) so looking out 2 years will provide you with many more LOL moments when we look back at this in December 2016.   But we have a long offseason ahead with a lot of open spots on our roster and this helps one begin to roadmap where we really need players in the 2015 class.

My caveats are I don't give a damn what a guy did in HS or how many stars he has, I need to see it on a college football field.  I've been burned too much - and yes I will root for every damn 5 star to show up on campus and drink Maize Kool Aid when it happens but I've seen enough Henrys (throwaway 3 star added to the class in the closing days) over Pipkins to take HS ranks with anything but lots of grains of salt.  So my "assessment" will be more pensive than yours will be, because there are certain positions we are relying on guys that have not done much at all.   I realize most today will just say "Harbaugh" as an answer - and I hope it is simple as that!

I'll do a 1-5 grade for 2015, 2016 (1 being best, 5 being Danger Will Robinson) and then a variability (1 being most certain and best, 5 being least certain).

This post will focus on defense

 

Position 2015 Variability 2016 Variability
DE 3 4 4 5

2015 - Defensive end is one of 2 key areas of concern on the 2015 defense.  Both starters from 2014 leave and what returns is anywhere from backup type players to unknown commodities.  One injury in this position group could be devastating.  A huge issue in 2013 was the lack of pass rush ("the right to rush 4");  2014 saw improvement on that front, especially with Frank Clark (Beyer generally did his damage vs average to weaker teams).  Worries now return that 2015 might look a lot like 2013 in terms of pass rush.  Production leaving is 42 tackles, 5 sacks + 35 tackles, 6 sacks.  One assumes the starters will be SR Mario Ojemudia and JR Taco Charlton (yes he is already a junior!)  Mario was a decent backup in 2014 (31 tackles, 4 sacks) and getting his stamina up to play a ton this year will be important.  Taco (19 tackles, 4 sacks) in many ways is a lot like Clark (although Clark was much smaller) as a raw product that is becoming more refined year by year.  But Beyer and especially Clark played monster minutes last year so this will be a sea change in expectation for both new starters.  Taco seems much more explosive but in limited time, doing it play after play is a different animal then coming in as a specialist.

Behind them it gets welp-ish.  RS SO Henry Poggi (2 tackles, 0 sacks) will need to step it up - probably expectations were too high for him early but right now he seems more like a run stopping end than a pass rusher type but this was a guy with offers from schools like Alabama.  He played little in 2014.  RS FR Lawrence Marshall will be getting his feet wet and fast.   He simply cannot be a guy we whiffed on based on roster depth.. i.e. there is no one else but him left.  Recruiting losses of Hand and McDowell hurt here - although McDowell is at 280 lbs so probably ends up at DT down the road.  Again I cannot stress enough the inability to withstand an injury in this group of 4.  You'd have to take a Wormley type and flex him out I suppose as that is the only guy on the roster who seems applicable as a "kinda defensive end".

2016 - Everything said above applies again but remove Mario who graduates.  SR Taco is on 1 end and one of 2 unproven products - RS SO Marshall or RS JR Poggi on the other.  A 3 man rotation going all year is bad.  We need two 2015 recruits at end.  And they will be guys who will be playing possibility as true FR in 2015 and certainly as RS FR/true SO in 2016.  Urgent needs here.

Position 2015 Variability 2016 Variability
DT 2 3 1 2

2015 - a year ago we entered the year saying S and DT were the 2 big unknowns.  But I was outlining how a year from "then" DT could be the team strength.  That came to be but not necessarily with the players I assumed.  I thought it would be Pipkins, Henry, Wormley, and Hurst.  Instead the Order of Kovacs was reborn on Sir Glasgow and he combined with Henry and by year end Mone to provide a pretty stout interior.   Unlike DE not only do both starters return at DT in 2015 but both just flip over to upperclassmen for the first time.  That's exciting.  Unless SO Mone makes a move upward in camp it would appear the RS JR team of Henry and Glasgow will be the starting DTs.  Stats for DTs never tell the tale but IMO Henry (20 tackles, 3 sacks) was becoming the 2nd best player on the defense last year until his injury slowed him down late.  Behind Henry at the 3T will be RS JRs Chris Wormley (21 tackles, 3 sacks) and Matt Godin (9 tackles, 1 sack).  Wormley seems like a guy who either makes a splash play or disappears - not much in the middle.  Godin is not going to wow you but seemed to gain coach's trust with a limited role as the year went by.  RS JR Strobel at this point seems to be a lost cause.

At the NT, run stopper Glasgow (22 tackles, 0 sacks) went from "haha motivation technique" starter in the spring game to "uhh, what?" starter from day 1 in fall 2014 and never gave it up.  While Mone (9 tackles) was getting better and gaining playing time as the year progressed, it appears SR Pipkins (9 tackles) is facing a William Campbell career.  Mone had passed him by the back third of the season and unless something changes dramatically it appears Pipkins won't be getting enough playing time to even try to recreate the one good year Campbell had as a SR.  RS SO Hurst is listed as a NT on the Mgo depth chart but at his size (280ish) he seems more like a 3T; either way the bowl hype of December 2013 didn't lead to much in 2014 (3 tackles); but he is still a baby in football terms.

2016 - No one but Pipkins leaves.  (Unless Henry has a Jerel Worthy type of year and goes to the draft - boo).  So the potential exists for RS SRs Henry, Glasgow, Wormley, Godin along with RS JR Hurst and JR Mone to all be here.  Damn.  Unfortunately that is offset by the scary things I wrote earlier at the ends - can't we have nice things all along the D-line at once?

Also, if this was a 3 year outlook I'd be damn worried about 2017 - we lose everyone but Hurst and Mone (and Pallante).  So we actually could use a 2015 tackle although Hoke was not recruiting that position.  If no 2015 DTs we have a donut hole in the roster like we had at OL for a few years.  A 2016 recruit would redshirt in 2016 (or not RS and be a backup) and then likely be forced into either a starting spot or serious backup immediately in 2017.  So if you are looking a few years ahead, and you want your linemen to be redshirted we actually need some DTs in the 2015 class.  And then another batch in 2016's.

 

Position 2015 Variability 2016 Variability
LB 2.5 2.5 4 5

2015 - Jake Ryan and his 112 tackles (2 sacks) leave; SR Joe Bolden and his 102 tackles (2 sacks) return.  Both lacked in the "splash play" department in 2014 but logged crazy playing time.  RS SR Desmond Morgan will return from injury, and one assumes he takes Ryan's MLB role.  With Bolden and Morgan we more or less know what we are getting and there is little variability - if we don't change scheme from 2014 those 2 will play massive minutes (assuming Morgan beats out Gedeon)   From there it's a bit more murky.

2014 was a strange year for what looked like the once sterling career for one SR James Ross III.  He seemed to be squeezed out of a ton of playing time due to scheme and sticking with 2 LB formations for long portions of each game.  I have no idea what to expect out of him in 2015 but this was the 2nd leading tackler on the team in 2013 and sunk to 32 in 2014.  SR Royce Jenkins-Stone is a career bit player and despite tons of spring camp hype in 2014 never delivered (6 tackles).  JR Ben Gedeon (17 tackles) seems the other player destined for decent playing time in 2015 ...leading to a starting role in 2016.  Or maybe he surges ahead of a SR this year?  This is all fine for 2015 but looking out a year it is important that guys like RS SO Mike McCray and RS JR Allen Gant get SOME meaningful playing time if they are future heirs to the starting roles.  This unit overall is solid and relatively assignment sound but seems to lack the heat seeking difference makers you see in the SEC.  Or hell MSU.  We need splash play LBs once again.

2016 - Along with the DEs this could unit could be very troublesome in 2016.  The loss of Michael Ferns to transfer creates 1 less lottery ticket, and the highest ranked one.  Unless someone outside of Bolden, Morgan, Gedeon, and Ross play significant minutes in 2015 you will essentially be returning SR Ben Gedeon and a cast of unknowns.  RS JR McCray and RS SR Gant will have being upperclassmen on their side, and guys like RS SOs Chase Winovich, Noah Furbush, and Jared Wangler will hopefully be providing pressure.   That entire group of 5 is just one big batch of "unknown quantity".  With that said OSU's LB group this year was very young so no excuses for youth - these guys need to be developed and ready to contribute meaningfully in 2016.  But sitting today there is simply no visibility outside of Gedeon.  Unlike DE however there is at least a decent size pool of players to create options down the road.  We need an ILB + OLB in the 15 class.

 

Position 2015 Variability 2016 Variability
CB 3 3 3 4

2015 - Ok maybe I am drinking too much Kool Aid but I could see a 2nd team All Conference award for JR Jourdan Lewis (39 tackles, 2 INT) in 2015.  He - not SO Jabrill Peppers - is right now the best CB on the team BASED ON EVIDENCE ON THE FIELD.  Maybe I just want to see what I want to see but I felt teams began avoiding his side of the field late in the year.  The much hyped Peppers (8 tackles) barely had a chance to get his season off the ground - an injury vs App State, and then another more mysterious injury later (bone chip in knee?) saw him exit stage right.  Essentially we saw 1 full game vs a very bad opponent (Miami OH), and half a game vs I believe Utah - and who knows what % he was in that game.  He did win the starting job out of camp so there is reason for promise but what he actually is or will be in 2015, no one knows.  I am going to assume he and Lewis man the corners.   RS SR Countess (24 tackles) regressed badly in 2014 after a decent 2013.   Confidence or injuries piling up or what it is - no one knows.   But seeing the 2013 Blake v 2014 Blake would be a welcome addition; for now maybe we pencil him in as the nickelback (NNTNB).   Those are the starters and unfortunately there really doesn't seem like anyone behind them to really push based on the rotation of 2014.

JR Channing Stribling (7 tackles) is the only backup who really played last year that returns for 2015 - and he seemed to play less than as a freshman.  I said a year ago at this time dude needs to put on 15-20 lbs before 2014, and he came back at the same weight.  So same mission for 2015, go eat man.  RS JR Terry Richardson was a major recruit whose career just hasn't worked out.  With Ray Taylor and Hollowell out of the rotation the question is who becomes the 5th CB after Stribling?  This is another position where injuries can quickly cause issues as a 3 CB formation is becoming relatively standard.  Options include RS SO Reon Dawson or RS FR Brandon Watson.   As a group the INT production was pathetic in 2014 (2 INTs from the DBs) - we need to see a massive improvement in 2015.

2016 - Blake graduates and one hopes SR Lewis and JR Peppers make up the best CB pairing in the conference.  At this point the guys we have seen little of will be nickelbacks and primary backups to Lewis/Peppers so visibility is very low.  We don't have any 2015 recruits to begin plugging in as backups at this moment. The 2015 class could use two corners, hopefully Marcus Lewis is one.  Obviously Iman Marshall would be a dream catch but he is basically a Trojan until further notice.  My low grade here doesn'y reflect the 2 starters but just a complete lack of visibility on a nickelback and depth - and one injury seems like it could derail this group quickly as the dropoff from Peppers and Lewis to "anyone else" seems severe right now.

Position 2015 Variability 2016 Variability
S 3 3 4 4

2015 - Safety has not been a very good position for UM since Kovacs left and frankly it's not been a defensive strength for most of what seems 10+ years.  SR Jarrod Wilson (50 tackles) will return and while not dynamic seems like the only sure thing back there.  The other S position was a revolving door of RS JR Delano Hill, RS JR Jeremy Clark, and JR Dymonte Thomas.   Hill (20 tackles) won the job out of camp and promptly got hurt.  Then got hurt again.  2014!!  His play late in the year was not inspiring.  Clark (18 tackles) looked good against App State - that was pretty much his peak for the year.  Thomas (27 tackles) was a top 100 recruit who apparently struggles in space - not a great scouting report for a S.  I think under another staff he'd be asked to put on 20 lbs and be an ultra fast OLB who can keep the game simple and attack.  But it seems strange we cannot find a fit for this type of athlete.  Time is running out.  Maybe he turned the corner late in the year? (5 tackles v Maryland) but with Brian throwing away UFRs mid way thru the season it's difficult to assess.  So that's your 4 man rotation and we seem to have another donut hole with no safeties listed on the MGo depth chart... until you get to 2015 recruit Kinnel.  I think we converted 1 of our safeties to RB last year, and guys like Reon Dawson were a S/CB hybrid?  There were some rumors of Brandon Watson playing S in camp last year but with the lack of depth at the CB position he is probably more needed there.

2016 - Wilson i.e. the only sure thing in the S group, graduates and we're left with same crew as above, all a year older.  And RS FR/true SO Kinnel.  Why the hell we dropped the recruitment of Montae Nicholson who already received a few games of starting time for a program that nearly universally redshirts freshmen is beyond me.  He'd probably be starting next to Wilson in 2015 and be the one sure thing in 2016.  Your guess is as good as mine what happens in 2016 - I assume it's Hill and Thomas with Clark and Kinnel as backups.  I hope I feel a lot better about that arrangment on Dec 1, 2015 then I do now.  The grade is low but could be higher if we get good S play from non Wilson's in 2015.  Needless to say, we need recruits at all spots in the secondary.

------------------

Overall - Overall I like the general direction of our 2015 defense but it lacks depth at some key places (DE) and reliability at others (one S).  It's strangely thin in some spots - CB and DE can barely absorb an injury which is not a good way to go into a season.  I think Henry and Lewis will be the 2 stars (replacing Clark and JMFR) and then Peppers is your wildcard.  The LBs seem more like solid guys than splash players.  Mone might take a big step.  DTs and the starting 2 CBs should be the strength.  A surprise from a player like Taco and/or Gedeon would really help.  I assume run defense will remain solid but pass defense is a question.  Even star CBs need DEs who can pressure.  This unit NEEDS to create turnovers unlike the 2014 unit.

2016?  Welp - after multiple years of being EMO about the offense it might be time to switch that to the defense in 2016.  Looking at it from a full team perspective, 2015 is a year to win more with defense (yeah we said that last year too) and 2016 more with offense.  A lot depends on development and hopefully this coaching staff is an improvement in that regard but all 3 LBs, one DE, the only sure S will all be gone.  There are some donut hole roster issues that I thought we had eradicated but seem to have popped back up.  2015 needs to show development of safeties, backup CBs, defensive ends, and backup LBs to flow into 2016.   If 75% of the 2015 recruiting class is defense I would not be against it.  And 60% of the 2016 class.

Comments

pearlw

January 4th, 2015 at 8:32 AM ^

This was a very good and fair assessment of the defense and some of the scary holes in 2016. It really shows how recruiting was hurt by lack of success on the field with key misses at DE - Hand/McDowell last year and the decommitment of Roseboro this year. Just having 2 of those names on the roster next year would alleviate almost all of your concerns about DE in 2016. I also like your analysis because of the inclusion of the variability/volatility number. The reality is we have no idea how these position will work out but the variability shows the upside/downside. Having depth at a position removes the variability because you can more safely assume that at least one player out of a group will pan out and it dampens the effect of an unexpected injury.

LB is really interesting...the experienced rotation of last year and this year is going to lead to a very inexperienced group in 2016. Word throughout the season was that Winovich was impressing in practice so hopefully that lottery ticket works out. There is always a possibility that Michigan can actually get a top LB in 2016 class that can contribute immediately given Harbaugh/Durkin potential to recruit a top 5 star.

Finally, I really like your lottery ticket analogy...it is the right way to think about these things as no one really knows how players will develop. The more possibilities you have, the more chances someone will turn out to be better than expected or will develop into that star player you expect...there will always be players that dont turn out to be as good as expected whether due to injuries or overoptimistic projections. You correctly point out why Ferns transfer did hurt Michigan even though it will have little effect on 2015 season...he was a lottery ticket that potentially could turn out to be a great LB. Now there is one more less of those. When depth gets light, it forces your lottery tickets to work out - Lawrence Marshall being a perfect example. Marshall simply needs to work out because if he is one of the players that doesnt pan out, then depth at DE becomes a disaster.

TESOE

January 4th, 2015 at 8:37 AM ^

Both had very different paths with injury to Pipkins and position change for BWC.  Pipkins has had the same role throughout.  Ultimately he is likely to leave with fans wishing he had another year like BWC however (IMO).

I like these two posts O and D, but I think the player evals are too harsh for athletes who haven't finished their college careers.  Some players only get one season in the sun.  That season can be worth all the the work.

New eyes on the players will allow the cream to rise to the top.  I'm wondering if we are going to see leadership in the winter workouts like we have had recently.   I'm curious to see if the team runs together (like Seniors in past classses have organized) and how often the QBs work on routes with the WRs/TEs.  I have no inside info - most of that comes with little to no reporting.  The S/C hire will take what he gets from the players at this point as the players are back.

The Pope

January 4th, 2015 at 9:19 AM ^

Great assessment. However, I think the D will improve significantly for 2 reasons. First, they will have better position coaches who will help them improve. Hoke's crew was mediocre except for a couple coaches, and from the names that are being mentioned I like the group Harbaugh is putting together. Second, a real S&C coach will instantly help this group. Some people say Ferrigno was the weakest coach on staff, but I think it was Wellman. I think a lot of the lack of player development goes to him.

m1jjb00

January 4th, 2015 at 10:34 AM ^

But, I heard from some outlet/source that I have reasonable trust in that NFL scouts were complaining that Michigan players were disappointingly weak.  The same weren't complaining about them under Brawis.  

The only other thing is the discussion on these pages over injuries, though that could be bad luck also.

The Pope

January 4th, 2015 at 3:47 PM ^

Other than watching our guys get blown up every Saturday? I'm going off the fact that a lot of guys on the roster were talked about having good frames for adding weight when they were recruited, but when they got to the team they didn't seem to get that much bigger, stronger, or even faster or more flexible. If it were a few guys I would say maybe they were lazy, but the number of guys tells us it's probably Wellman. Either Wellman had a bad program or he was a bad motivator...either case makes him a poor S&C coach. S&C is about results, and his were poor when it came to helping guys become better football players.

alum96

January 4th, 2015 at 9:57 AM ^

I think the weakest was Mallory although I cannot argue with Ferrigno. 

In 2013 he was responsible for the entire DB - they sucked as a group.  In true Carr/Hoke fashion he did not get fired (yes Borges but that is 1 guy out of years of protecting people) but instead there were rumors he was trying to interview at some other locations.  When none of that worked out he returned.... with a lesser role, just the safeties.  And what spot was our garbage spot of 2014?  You guessed it - safeties.  Instead people pile onto Manning who looks like he developed Lewis.  Yes Countess regressed but I think people's evaluation of Countess in 2013 was too high - he was burned a lot but made up for it with INTs.  Those INTs didnt happen in 2014 so all we saw were the getting burned.  

I am not say Manning is a great CB coach.  But I have read hundreds of posts the past 4 months about this season and I see Funk hate, Manning hate, Jackson hate, Heck hate, Wellman hate, Ferrigno hate.  Never a peep about Mallory. 

And for the person above you - he makes a good point - sometimes a college player only has 1 year in the sun.  So player X who as of year end 2014 is a nobody might just have a great one and done year in 2016 before he graduates.  That would be someone like Gant right now.  But we have zero visibility on that.  And I think guys who usually pop like that show something before that 1 great year - so a Gedeon to me seems a lot more like a guy who would explode for his 1 year starting in 2016.

Obviously we will have a lot better idea about 2016 on Dec 1, 2015 but unlike the offense where I see myriad players and position groups that show a clear trend up into 2016, the defense has a lot of roster depth issues in 2016 AS OF TODAY.   We'll have more data in a year.

 

UMaD

January 4th, 2015 at 1:36 PM ^

At least not given the youth and profiles of the people we have.  But I think you are right to question/criticize Mallory.  For the talent our secondary has it has underperformed.

It's not nearly as bad as the Ferrigino disaster though.  That's on par with GERG-level incompetence.

Double-D

January 4th, 2015 at 9:44 AM ^

Our lack of depth at DE is concerning. You would think guys like KLS would be licking their chops to come in and play for Harbaugh right now with snaps available. I am guessing Ferns was clearly behind the other three freshman in his class. We need to get back to having more RS upperclassman on the two deep. I am all for playing Freshman that earn the time but it seems like Hoke burned future depth for some meaningless snaps.

King Douche Ornery

January 4th, 2015 at 10:30 AM ^

The coming years look scary. Recruiting whiffs, and according to many here, poor coaching. And Harbaugh can turn this around in the way Mattison did his first year?  We'd better hope Hoke left as much talent as it appears Rich Rod did.

King Douche Ornery

January 4th, 2015 at 10:30 AM ^

The coming years look scary. Recruiting whiffs, and according to many here, poor coaching. And Harbaugh can turn this around in the way Mattison did his first year?  We'd better hope Hoke left as much talent as it appears Rich Rod did.

King Douche Ornery

January 4th, 2015 at 10:30 AM ^

The coming years look scary. Recruiting whiffs, and according to many here, poor coaching. And Harbaugh can turn this around in the way Mattison did his first year?  We'd better hope Hoke left as much talent as it appears Rich Rod did.

King Douche Ornery

January 4th, 2015 at 10:31 AM ^

The coming years look scary. Recruiting whiffs, and according to many here, poor coaching. And Harbaugh can turn this around in the way Mattison did his first year?  We'd better hope Hoke left as much talent as it appears Rich Rod did.

King Douche Ornery

January 4th, 2015 at 10:31 AM ^

The coming years look scary. Recruiting whiffs, and according to many here, poor coaching. And Harbaugh can turn this around in the way Mattison did his first year?  We'd better hope Hoke left as much talent as it appears Rich Rod did.

m1jjb00

January 4th, 2015 at 10:31 AM ^

You lost me at the 3 for CBs = 3 for safeties.

In addition, if you're going to just throw out expectations coming out of high school for young players then it's really hard to say anything about 2016. 

bronxblue

January 4th, 2015 at 12:02 PM ^

Good writeup.  I do wonder about Pipkins ever amounting to much, which is tragic given how good he looked at times and his pedigree.  Feels like wasting him his freshman year is really biting Michigan now because a RS SR year, 2 years after the ACL injury would be great.

I know there are concerns about injuries, but isn't that somewhat an issue with most teams?  With only 85 scholarships, there are always areas where you'll have weak points, and Michigan's questionmarks at CB and DE seem not uncommon across CFB, though DE really should be more of a focus than it seemed to be under Hoke.

I agree 2016 looks scary, but that's just far enough away that you don't know how the next two classes will shake out.  And with a new DC, perhaps we'll see some shifts in formations to offset for player development/rsoter issues.

Space Coyote

January 4th, 2015 at 12:39 PM ^

It's kind of a double edged sword. 2016 is two full seasons from now, which means that depth isn't really even on campus yet unless they've played early. But playing early means that the upperclassmen probably haven't performed well enough to keep them on the bench.

I know it's trying to take a look at what Michigan has without it just being "recruiting", but take LB for instance. It's scary after this year because we've had a group of really good LBs playing at Michigan the past few years. This means the younger guys haven't played, so we don't really know what to make of them. But it isn't necessarily a bad thing. Having them not play also means the guys in front of them were performing their jobs.

So yeah, there are some positions that need some added bodies, but I'm not quite as pessimistic about it as the OP. I prefer recruiting most positions with at least one player each year, which means this year, for instance, would have a DT despite the amount of players we have at the position. But being worried about post-2016 because we lose a few guys that year is a bit much for me. If we don't recruit one this year, we recruit 2-3 next year and then the depth is RS FR or SO. Optimal? Not necessarily. But far from awful.

And I look at Safety and CB and it's a bit the same. We have a solid top 3, we have a solid 4th CB, and we have a few young guys that haven't played yet. That seems perfectly adequate to me and not really an area of concern. Even with moving one to safety, I think one CB is enough. Same with the safety position.

So I get what the OP is doing, but young guys not playing yet, and then guys that aren't on campus yet, doesn't spell depth concern to me yet outside of what is always a concern with recruiting the next batch of players. I think outside of 4-3 DE or 3-4 ILBs, Michigan's depth is where it needs to be on defense.

UMaD

January 4th, 2015 at 2:09 PM ^

Young guys not playing behind good veterans isn't necessarily concerning but it's also not confidence inducing.  The OL problems of 2013 and 2014 where visible since signing day 2012, if not 2011's failure to replace Fisher.  Even with Lewan returning we couldn't avoid disaster brought on by youth and inexperience.

When you have proven young players you don't have to worry as much because you know the bust potential isn't there.  OL is different than other positions, but LB is another place where you prefer veterans to playing underclassmen.  It's not time to panic but Michigan needs to add somebody here.

Assuming 7 available spots, I think Michigan should try to add the following:

  • 1 QB/ATH (in addition to Malzone)
  • 1 TE (Clark, hopefully)
  • 1 OL (in addition to Newsome, Runyan)
  • 1 DL
  • 1 DE/OLB
  • 1 LB
  • 1 DB

That said, it's more important that they add talent they like then fit positional needs.  Other than TE, DE, and LB I don't think there is a glaring need to the class.  I'd like to see Michigan go after versatile athletes along the lines of Shallman who can fit a number of positions.

Space Coyote

January 4th, 2015 at 3:00 PM ^

My feelings for the 2015 class as a whole:

1-2 QBs (Check)

1 RB (Need 1)

1-2 WRs (Check)

1-2 TEs (Need 1)

3 OL (Need 1)

1 DT (Need 1)

1-2 DE (Need 1)

2 LB (Need 2)

1 CB (Need 1)

1 S (Check)

1 K (Check)

(Somewhat unfortunate because Hoke had RB, additional WR, TE, DE, and CB locked down, with one LB in the fold)

Now, that's a max of 18, which isn't realistic for this class. It's a minimum of 14 which is realistic. So I think you get the minimum and then add best available at the other positions. As I said, I'm a fan of recruiting at least one at every position group every year and filling out a starting lineup every two years at least; this means every two years you need at least 3 WRs, 5 OL, 3 LBs, 3 CBs, in addition to the minimum of two per two year span at other positions (not including special teams).

Per four years that equals:

4 QBs

4 RBs

6 WRs

4 TEs

10 OL

4 DTs

4 DEs

6 LBs

6 CBs

4 Safeties

That's 52 players every four years to keep classes balanced, with 33 scholarships to play with. Then you include redshirts, position of needs (some guys wash out/don't pan out) best player available, additional depth, special teams, etc.

Besides QB being the most important position on the field, the reason you over-recruit the position is because it's hard to switch people to it. For example: RB can play WR, DB, or LB; WR can play RB, DB; TE can bulk up to OL or play DE or LB; OL can play DL or TE. In other words, you can manage your roster if needed. QB isn't a position you can do that.

UMaD

January 4th, 2015 at 6:34 PM ^

I think you might want a TE/WR hybrid in the WR mix, given Harbaugh may want more power 2-TE sets. Also, assuming at least one of the TE is an H-back type like Shallman/Shea.

There's always some guys who are versatile enough to move between positions.

You are generally right about QBs not moving between positions but if you recruit dual threat athletes this doesn't have be true.

pearlw

January 4th, 2015 at 2:47 PM ^

If remaining spots were to go as you suggest, it would mean:
1) No WR recruits in class for what the board yesterday pretty much agreed upon was Michigan's weakest position outside of QB.
2) No RB for second class in a row. I know you can sort of count Ty Isaac in last year's class due to transfer/redshirt but if he does well, he is eligible for draft as soon as the end of this season so future depth is more at risk with Isaac than with a traditional 2nd yr player.



Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad

uminks

January 4th, 2015 at 12:25 PM ^

will have a 13 limit. I think we still have 6 recruits who will stay. JH may get 7 more to fill out the class, but only having 6 weeks left in this recruiting class, he may not fill this class. Needs continue to be 1 QB, 1 or 2 WR, 2 DE, 2 S, and may be another LB but we will also need another OL. Unlike the last coaching staff, I doubt JH will be using youth as an excuse. I think he will develop recruits ASAP and player development will be exponentially better than under Hoke.

BlueKoj

January 4th, 2015 at 12:55 PM ^

It's difficult to see consistency in giving TEs a 2 moving to 1 with only Butt having played and no Clark, but then see JD, Peppers and Blake being at 3 and staying there. I've seen more from JD than Butt (even though I like Jake a lot). I also have more faith-in-hype re Peppers than Bunting and Clark combined (though, again I like both).

alum96

January 4th, 2015 at 3:23 PM ^

#1 - the 3 CB system seems to be a base defense for UM nowadays so you need 3.  If you project Peppers to be great my evaluation grade may raise a question  I project Peppers as a guy who played good against a horrid Miami OH and the book is still out. I assume he is very good but I dont have data like I do with Butt.  So he is more like say Ty Isaac than Lewis until we get data.  I project Lewis as a Butt level talent for his position.  And I project Countess as someone who really needs to rebound; he had a VERY rough year.  Was his year at CB any better than  Deveon Smith at RB?  Not to me. So you have 3 "starters" - 1 Butt type, 1 guy who has hype but was injured all year, and 1 guy who regressed badly.

#2 - Behind Butt you have Hill, Williams (erg), Heitzman, Bunting.  If you play 1 TE set that is 4 guys to fall back on, 3 of which we have seen something from.  Even with 2 TE set that is a  good ratio of backsups to starters.  In the CB position if you have 3 CBs (I being a nickelback) your 3 backups as we enter 2015 are Stribling and I don't know and I don't know.  Hill at TE at least played, Heitzman at least played, Williams has played for 2 years (good or bad).  Contrast at the CB with who?  Reon Dawson? Brandon Watson?  Zero data on these guys.

I think of every position as its own 2 deep.  TE at least has depth, CB does not right now or what is there is Stribling and a bunch of unknowns.  And Stribling barely played in 2014.  And 2 players in the 1 deep either barely played or regressed at CB.  Our 1 deep at TE was a stud.  The 2 deep at the TE has a bunch of experienced players at least.

UMaD

January 4th, 2015 at 1:22 PM ^

  • Expect a scheme change to a 3-4 or 4-3 under.  This takes advantage of our depth at DT and LB, and mitigates the weakness at DE.

 

  • Expect position switches at DE.  There is just zero chance Michigan rolls with Poggi and Marshall as the 3rd and 4th DE options all year.
  • At SDE, Godin and Wormley are ideal fits in the Senior year Roh/RVB mold, in a role Mattison has identified as not much different from DT.  I expect Charlton to backup Wormley here and Wormley to come into his own as a starter.
  • At WDE (or RLB in the 3-4, Brandon Graham and Lamar Woodley's NFL positions) I think Ojemudia needs to get leaner and quicker.  I'd also expect a LB to flip here for passing situations at least (a la Jake Ryan in years past).  Whoever can bulk up - McCray comes to mind as a candidate at 6'4 and 240+ already.
  • I agree entirely with the optimisim at DT and it might even be underselling it a bit.  We have at least 4 proven players and a couple of them have high-end potential to be all-conference.
  • NT:  Mone and Pipkins are both over 305.  Glasgow is better than they are right now, but depending on the scheme he may bump to DT.
  • Do NOT write-off Pipkins yet.  Remember he was coming off an injury last year. Before his injury he was playing ahead of a lot of people, incuding Glasgow and Henry.
  • Henry may vie with Lewis to be our best defensive player but I also expect Mone, Pipkins, Wormley, and Gedeon to all take big steps forward in 2015.

 

  • LB: positions are overrated here, but Ross may benefit greatly from moving back to the WLB spot he was recruited for.
  • Gedeon jumps off the screen/field to me.  Bolden's our best LB, but Gedeon may be the closest to being a Jake Ryan-type of impact player.
  • The LB situaiton in 2016 is alarming because the '14 class is a significant concern. Hoke and company missed on their top guys (save Ferns) and took some risks.  Michigan badly needs to add a '15 recruit.

 

  • Lewis is a lock-down CB, but it'll be interesting to see how the Peppers/Countess situation shakes out at CB and nickel.  I don't care to make an assumption here with the new staff, but I'm glad we have two good, but very different, options.
  • Stribling -- everybody is sleeping on CS.  In 2013 he was even with Lewis, before Lewis made his leap.  He's tall, he's athletic, and with good coaching and added strength the sky is really the limit for him. Future NFL player, IMO, just a late bloomer.
  • I have no worries about this position. I would rank it a 1.5.  We need to keep recruiting it because it is so important, but there is no significant need here through 2016.
  • Also not worried about the 'other' safety spot.  It's like DT last year; we don't have a proven guy but we have a lot of good options.
  • DB recruiting -- the Nicholson thing was infuriating. Have to wonder if there was a character thing that Hoke took issue with.  Ultimately, if we just keep grabbing versatile recruits who can project to either corner or safety on top of highly rated pure CBs,  I think we're going to be just fine.
  • Still think Peppers may be best served with a move to Safety in the long run.

 

  • Overall, yes we lack proven stars, but there is talent, depth, and experience here. The big concern is a lack of 'organic' pass rush and that's a real problem against better teams on the schedule.  At the same time, the big physical and veteran pieces along the DL should dominate against weaker opponents and shut down opposing run games.  There will be gaps for our LBs to fly through. The DTs will cause problems and we have the potential for two lock-down CBs if Peppers can emerge. I expect a top 20 defense next year.
  • 2016 needs LBs and DEs more than anything else. Otherwise, recruiting needs are the typical ones you want every year and there are no major holes.

 

EGD

January 4th, 2015 at 2:39 PM ^

I agree with your thoughts on DE. Furbush seems like another LB recruit who could potentially help at WDE. I'm still concerned that we won't have the kind of pass rush we want but I think there's good depth on the current roster; we'll probably be okay with a couple developmental recruits for 2015.

UMaD

January 4th, 2015 at 7:08 PM ^

This has been rumored since he was getting recruited.  "Frame to get bigger" they have said.  But, thing is, he doesn't list at any bigger than the other LBs and he says he was recruited for MLB.  So I'm not sure this idea is real, though I certainly wouldn't rule it out.

alum96

January 4th, 2015 at 3:29 PM ^

I probably undersold Wormley in this writeup.  I had him and Henry as my 2 major upside DL guys coming into 2014, and he still has a lot of upside IMO.  He just needs a ton more consistency but I like his splash play ability.

Good point about Godin - he might turn into 2016's Keith Heitzman but with a tad more upside.  Someone will have to convert out to DE - Wormley and Godin look to be the obvious ones.  The miss on Strobel being a contributor really hurts here, he was a 4 star well rated DE with ratings from a bevy of well thought of schools. (along with recruiting misses of Hand, McDowell etc)

Peppers in a perfect world with his physicality is probably a stud nickelback with his run support.  I am just scuuuurrrred of Countess as corner covering outside WRs.

UMaD

January 4th, 2015 at 7:18 PM ^

I don't think Wormley is a high upside guy. He's pretty big and not that explosive.  That said, I do think he can be a very good SDE a la RVB.  Like you said - consistency is the big thing for him.

Maybe Strobel can emerge as a senior, some kids do, but it certainly doesn't look real promising. I was very high on him as a recruit.

I don't think the McDowell miss is that bad given our DT depth, but Hand stung. We don't have anybody close to his skill level.  DE recruiting as a whole has been disappointing and the focus on big LBs hasn't translated to any DEs converts yet (besides Clark). I am optimistic about Marshall though.

I think Countess is a lot closer to '13 Countess than '14 Countess next year. If not, he's a luxury as a 3rd CB.

 

Mich1993

January 4th, 2015 at 1:55 PM ^

Thanks for the detailed breakdown.  I am with Space Coyote that I think the depth concern is not that bad.  Add 1-2 DEs, 1 LB and a CB by the time this year's recruiting class is over, and it looks much better.  

If we keep the same D, I see Furbush moving to WDE before too long as he was very large for a LB coming in, and we do need more bodies at DE.  This will help the DE depth but hurt the LB depth.  

I also think the safety play will be much better in 2015.  Wilson was solid after being up and down his first year playing.  I think the experience gained by Hill, Thomas and Clark in 2014 will pay huge dividends in 2015.  Safety is hard and playing experience is critical.  We'll feel good about this position going into 2016.

Big picture, the fact we can look at potential starters for 2016 and see good options that have played at all positions except 2 LBs and a 2nd DE is amazing!  

I think the improved DT play from SOs becoming JR/SRs by 2016 along with better CB play (Lewis and Peppers) will lead to very good defenses both years.

 

MChem83

January 4th, 2015 at 3:34 PM ^

are player development problems.  Too many of our recruits have been slow to develop to their peak, and have had too low a ceiling when they do.  If guys like Richardson, Stribling and Dawson were showing any promise at all (as quality players at CB should after two years in the program), we wouldn't have the concerns that we do.  Same at LB for guys like Gedeon and McCray and at DT for guys like Pipkins and Henry. Unfortunately, none of those guys have looked like they will ever be any more than backups for a top 10-15 caliber team.  Elite programs develop a high percentage of their recruits into starting-caliber talent, so that when one starter leaves, someone else is able to step right in with little or no dropoff.  For too long, we've had too many guys who NEVER develop into championship-level starters, and we have to grope to project a quality lineup (or are stuck starting what are essentially backup quality players at too many spots).  It's going to be very hard to turn things around as long as we're whiffing on so many recruits.

Space Coyote

January 4th, 2015 at 3:49 PM ^

You list a guy like McCray; when is he supposed to show you he's a starter? Is he supposed to play over Ross, Ryan, Bolden, Morgan, or Gedeon, all guys in classes ahead of him or in the same class? Richardson didn't pan out, but who is Dawson, as a RS FR, supposed to play in front of? Taylor, Countess, Lewis, Stribling (who did receive playing time and did show flashes)? I'm guessing you mean Hurst, not Henry (Henry played a lot and showed quite a bit). Hurst, a RS FR, is behind pretty much 6 guys that are older than him that played well; then the staff gave him a package on offense to still utilize him.

Not every player is Peppers, a guy who comes in and wins the job immediately. That would speak poorly of player development and upperclassmen. Young guys coming in and waiting their turn isn't necessarily a bad thing. Outside of Richardson (who may be the backup NB), I don't think it's fair to call out any of those players, most of whom have shown flashes as you expect from underclassmen, or are behind established players that are older than them.

 

AZBlue

January 4th, 2015 at 11:37 PM ^

Roseboro and/or nab KLS for the DEs in this class - and would LOVE to pick up that stud LB that likes Durkin (or get Kirkland back but think he's an EE at Tenn).  Combine that with a Lewis or Marshall at CB and we are pretty good for this class on D IMO.  (not that I wouldn't love more if they are quality!)

on O - I think another QB is unrealistic assuming we would only take a "sure-thing" (See Rosen, J.) prospect with Malzone in the fold already.  A top RB would be nice but not an emergency, but I would like to see another top-tier WR to compliment Cole and another OL from the "stud" category.

I am assuming we get Clark.  If not we need to find a TE as well.

I would be surprised if we don't end up at 15-16 spots in this class -- now just a matter of filling them with quality options or deciding to bank a few for 2016.

AZBlue

January 4th, 2015 at 11:43 PM ^

I think Sam Webb had hinted at a couple of possible Medicals (among the O-Line backups?) - plus the chance of a few transfers due to the transition.  You always have the fall-back of pulling back a Scholly from one of the 3 contributing W-Os (Glasgows and ??) to avoid going over.  --Not advocating that, as they have earned it as starters; but it is a possibility if handled correctly with the player/family  ---

readyourguard

January 5th, 2015 at 11:10 AM ^

Is there any chance that Godin could shed some pounds and move to SDE?  Anyone else that's a possible candidate?

We all agreed that Hoke could recruit.  He got guys who had impressive offers from the likes of Bama and OSU.  I am of the belief that Harbaugh makes those guys better simply because he's a better coach.  I have a beef with retaining Mattison as the LB coach.  I think we need a new perspective at that position.  It's just a personal opinion I've formed after watching some of the techniques (or lack of) used by our LBs over the last couple years.

Thanks for the write up, ole 96er.

 

Space Coyote

January 5th, 2015 at 11:16 AM ^

I think Godin is a naturally bigger guy, and seemed destined to move inside. Meanwhile, I think they've bulked up Strobel too much and he's kind of lost what made him a potentially exciting recruit. So I'd rather they trim down Strobel if they want to move someone back outside. May be too late in the game for that though, especially if you want dividends immediately.

alum96

January 5th, 2015 at 3:39 PM ^

If one thought a 265 lb Strobel would be a good rotation DE guy for 2016 you begin that quest this week.  It is worth a year of work to have an able body ready for what will be a 3 man rotation that year.

My issue here is like a Blake Bars, Strobel is a guy who doesn't even get garbage time vs the App States of the world.  He just is nowhere to be found so it would appear at any weight he is just one of those guys who never worked out.

I know we don't walk about transfers around here but he is in a batch of a few guys who are reaching an age they have never had a meaningful snap at UM and there doesn't seem like much hope for that changing in the future.  If it was any other position group I could at least say "hey maybe he was coached badly" but by all accounts the DL was coaching pretty decently.

If this was Bama he would have been "ushered" out a year ago at minimum to make way for the next 5 star DL recruit.

west2

January 5th, 2015 at 7:35 PM ^

remark that the tone of your assessments seem to be colored by the past 3 year downward spiral in performance.  I understand your premise of not projecting expectations into your assessments and its very sobering providing a level of realistic outlook for the team, but lordy lordy how the mighty have fallen!   I am thinking a year from now with better player development, better game management, and better identification of talent, the bar will be much higher for the future.