Counter Argument - Picture Pages: Blowing Up The Inverted Veer

Submitted by Space Coyote on

Introduction

In the picture pages post today, I feel I noted something of some significance. This isn’t supposed to be a post to puff out my own chest, rather, I merely want to give the other side of the argument my side of the argument for what it really is.

As an aside, there have been numerous people that have constantly misconstrued my argument lately. I understand that by taking a particular unpopular stance so strongly, that I have opened myself up to criticism. But within this article I also want to make clear up some of my stance, so towards the end I will get into some of that. Much of these will be related to the comments I made earlier (if not copy and pasted), the major difference is that I now have the opportunity to add accompanying pictures and diagrams to go with it. This is of importance because football isn’t really a sport that is best described with words. You can try to be as descriptive as possible, but there will always be a certain amount of failure to accurately convey your thoughts through this medium. So the pictures/diagrams help in that regard. So let’s begin.

 

Set Up and Play Design

I’m going to copy and paste Brian’s set up to his post as he does a good job getting us there.

Michigan comes out with an H-back and two tailbacks in a twins formation, which necessarily means that the slot receiver is not an eligible receiver. Nebraska responds with 7.5 in the box, with the gray area defender just about splitting the difference between Funchess and the tackle.

 

I’ll get to the covered receiver part later, I want to start off with the basics here about what the intention of this play is. Let’s first start with the most fundamental concept of any run play: the blocking scheme.

Inverted veer works with a Power O blocking scheme. Power is a type of man/gap blocking scheme, while “O” indicates the pulling of the backside guard. A simple power play looks like this.

 

The inverted veer meanwhile, takes the fullback and erases him. It utilizes the option read to kick out the DE because the DE must commit to the QB or the RB. If the DE commits to the RB, the QB reads this and shoots through the lane inside of him. If the DE commits to the QB, the QB gives to the RB and the RB attacks the edge. Here’s how the inverted veer looks:

 

Now, let’s first act like there is no FB involved in the play so we can address the offensive line and TE first. As noted, this is a standard power blocking scheme. No one, from any of the offensive linemen, to the TE, do things differently than they would if this was a Power O run from under center. But the defense aligns in a way that makes running power difficult. This is an even front, stacked front, meaning the DL is aligned 5-2-2-5 as far as gaps. That’s outside shoulder of the OT and inside shoulder of the OG. The stack indicates that the OLBs are stacked over the DEs.

Well, to the front side this is similar to what a 4-3 Under will look like, but instead of the LB brought up on the LOS like Michigan often does with Jake Ryan, they’ve stacked him behind the DE.

This isn’t the exact defensive formation, but the blocking scheme is exactly the same (the only difference is the OC has one less shoulder to down block the backside DT and that the LB are shaded further from playside).

 

If you’re wondering what some of the things are in the diagram, the green boxes are the blocking calls that should be understood or made. As for the defensive formation, just for reference, the “G” means the NT that is usually lined up in a 1-tech slides out to the guards inside shoulder (often utilized to stop Iso) and the Loose is the SAM position loose from the LOS.

What you see is an adjustment in the blocking scheme. This is automatic and should be called and understood. Any team that runs power should make this adjustment. Why? Because that playside DE is very tight to the formation and becomes extremely difficult to kick out. His position pre-snap is already squeezing the hole that power is intended to go through, so rather than slam into that wall, it’s easier to down block him and seal the outside for the RB.

Now, here is how that applies to the inverted veer.

 

You see now that the person being optioned is that OLB (SAM) rather than the DE because of the defensive alignment.

Now let’s add the FB in the inverted veer. Power blocking makes another small adjustment when you have two lead blockers. If you remember back in the Tackle Over days, Michigan would utilize the U-back as a first lead blocker and a FB as a second. It was the U-back that was first through and responsible for the kick defender. The FB has some reads, but generally will try to get beyond the kick player and knock the first odd color jersey he sees.

More accurately, let’s look at it with an overhang defender. The way the FB is going to treat this is to go block that guy. If that guy tries to gain depth into the backfield, the FB will just carry him with his momentum. If he tries to go inside of him, he’ll simply arch block him. This is what that looks like:

Now let’s apply that to the inverted veer. It’s the same exact thing. The first lead blocker through takes the kick defender (here, that is the playside OLB). The fullback goes and finds the next off color jersey, typically to the outside. Generally, he will block this in a somewhat similar way, erring on the side of scooping the gray area defender. What that does is give a massive alley for Fitz to run through. It also forces that gray area defender to fight that block, regardless of if it blocks him from DG because he knows he must respect Fitz to run. That means if the blocking up front is done properly, DG has more than enough room and time to go straight up field and beyond that gray area defender before cutting out into the same lane that Fitz would run in.

So that’s how the play is designed to be run. Combined with the slot receiver taking the playside safety, everyone on the playside is blocked and a defined seam is established.

 

Why Run This Play?

I’m not really going to get into why you run the inverted veer, as that’s just a play more or less that has some pretty clear positives as far as reading a defender and threatening a defense with the RB and QB. But why put in the FB?

A common way teams defend the inverted veer is similar to ways that defenses have adapted to defend the read option: they force the QB’s read to be wrong. Essentially, this is a scrape exchange.

In the instance of an inverted veer, they’ll bring a defender off the edge that the QB can’t read or see because the QB is busy reading his key. The key typically is the DE.

Here’s a give look:

Here’s a keep look:

And here’s how a scrape exchange looks:

See that the read is still the same player for the QB. The QB’s read is to give. What the QB doesn’t see is the guy that is coming right into Fitz at the handoff. The defense is making DG’s reads wrong and there is nothing he can do about it.

So, to counter this, you add a FB. This is similar to what Rich Rod did with a U-back to kick the backside on a read option. Essentially, it’s making the QB’s read right by blocking the exchange defender. This means the QB just has to read his key and is fine. This is an adjustment to take advantage of a defensive look and seal the defense inside. Effectively, it’s acting similar to a bubble screen would act as it’s sealing the defense inside and attack the edge and alley with the RB (rather than a slot receiver). It’s a horizontal constraint on top of the normal inverted veer play.

 

Video/Diagram

Play:

Full Speed:

 

Half Speed:

 

Why Doesn’t it Work?

I’ll save some time and copy and paste a bit:

So the problem is two-fold: Kerridge completely whiffs his block because he archs too wide. His goal is essentially to scoop that gray area defender like he's trying to do in the MSU clip, note in that clip how he passes off the read DE and tries to get to the second level where he blocks no one because the safety he wants to block shot the gap instead (in theory here, his eyes are in the wrong place, there should be some adjustment that allows for DG to read the safety crashing and for Kerridge to scoop the DE, and DG should give here in that instance, but was likely hoping that guy would just follow Fitz and he'd have a clear path to a TD by having the option essentially block two-defenders, but as expected, it doesn't). The second problem is the fact that two people (Schofield and the TE) aren't on the same page as to what the power blocking adjustment should be.

 

The Big Picture

So we see this is messed up here. It is an execution issue. Alright. So what’s the deal. Quasi-rant in copy and paste mode:

Now, I don't think as far as the missed communication that it's because the blocking scheme is too complex. Much and most of their run scheme settles around a power blocking scheme. That should be better. The play against Nebraska should be executed better, but there were two huge botched assignments. The play against MSU is tougher and something that clearly wasn't repped enough (on the coaches). The FB nor Gardner made the correct adjustment to a safety shooting a gap. They might have repped it a few times, but clearly it wasn't enough to be familiar with how to adjust it in game.

It's basic Power O blocking fundamentals with two lead blockers (here, the two lead blockers are the option read and then the FB rather than a U-back and then a FB).

This is the problem that I've had with the "too many things that they aren't good at anything" argument. Veer option is based on a running scheme they utilize anyway (essentially a down G) but you don't have to pull because your kick block is the option. Inverted veer is Power blocking all the way. It is their base run play with the same exact assignments and adjustements. Nebraska does absolutely nothing that shows this play is tipped, they don't play it any way other than how a standard defense would play it. But Michigan can't get out of it's own way.

And this is the argument that I've had since PSU. It is execution. This play should work. It is 100% execution. Borges has Nebraska exactly how he wants them. Michigan is missing assignments in their base blocking scheme that they've repped thousands of times from under center, from pistol, from ace, from shotgun. That's not just on the players. Why the hell isn't the coaching staff able to get the players to block their base scheme? Why is it taking so long? Youth is part of it, yes. But at this point they should be able to block the run they utilize 75% of the time, including on their counters. It's on the coaches but it's not because of the play call. The play call is perfect. Why the hell aren't the players able to execute? Part of that, a lot of that, is youth. And part and a lot of that is they aren't getting through to these kids. It's the argument that I've made that's been misinterpreted since the start of all this. It's the same thing over and over again. Why can't they block their most basic, most repetitively run play in the entire playbook?

It’s not that there is too much in the playbook, I don’t believe that. That seems like a plausible answer when you isolate inverted veer from the rest of the offense. But it's not isolated from the rest of the offense. It's a Power O play with Gardner making a read. Blocking is exactly the same as Power O. It's their most repped play in the entire playbook. 

So how can you make it easier? They've taken out most of the difficult things. 75+% of the runs are the same damn blocking scheme. Counter Power, Inverted Veer, Veer option, Power, that accounts for the vast majority of the plays and all those plays have their roots in the same blocking structure. They still can't get it done. It's not about reducing the playbook anymore, they literally can't without just running from the I formation or just inverted veer. They can literally only reduce it by having the same blocking scheme and the same run action behind it, and that would only make matters worse because blocking is the primary issue.

And I know the execution thing rings of cliché as well, but it is absolutely true. This grab bag theory that all these plays are independent of one another isn't correct. They do have some tweaks. Zone stretch is now intended to be a constraint. Same with the counter. But the base of the run game comes back to power over 75% of the time I can promise that.

So it’s part youth. Certainly youth is a valid reason for some of these issues. But it’s also coaching. I can reiterate that until my face turns blue and some people won’t accept that I said it. But there is a fundamental flaw transferring the knowledge of this scheme to the players. This is not a difficult scheme. It’s a scheme taught to high schoolers all across the country. Sure, it gets a bit more complex at this level, and it gets a lot faster and you have to be much better at executing, but the basic, mental problems?

 

Why No Vertical Constraint?

Trust me when I say I would like a vertical constraint (pop pass) out of this look as much as anyone. My goal in this section is to try to explain why it may not be in the playbook right now with so many other issues in this offense.

But I seem to remember a pop pass off of it once or twice last year (I believe with Denard at QB). Honestly can't say why Borges hasn't run a false mesh, slide protection pop pass off of this look yet this year. I would like him too as well unless. My guess is that he's uncomfortable with DG making that read in traffic (he's worried about someone undercutting it or scrapping into it is my guess, and DG not processing it fast enough).

This is intended to argue one way or another if that play should be in there (I would personally like it), it's just trying to give perspective on if it's been run before and why an OC may shy away from it.

 

Why Cover Funchess?

Again, guesses for the most part, but realistically:

As I said, I hate covering receivers. It is a tip to the defense that it's likely run (where, they don't know). That said, you would be surprised how many defenses will still trot a DB out to cover that guy.

Anyway, the reason here is because Borges wanted a guy to block the playside safety. He wanted to form an alley on that side for Fitz. The FB takes the slot defender, Funchess takes the safety, and Gallon takes the CB. Everyone else is sealed inside. That's the only reason he did it, was to get the play completely blocked playside, which it should have been.

They need to cover the TE or Funchess because he wanted to run to strength and wanted that slot blocker. So the TE or Funchess had to be covered. Now, typically I'd say "alright, cover the TE, don't cover your 2nd biggest threat". But a couple things could have gone into the thinking here.

  1. But have the TE off the line you open up plays to the backside of the formation with the inverted veer look (including counter schemes and how the FB would leak out into the flat later). So in a way, it keeps the box defenders more honest, which they succeeded in doing (they didn't all crash playside on the snap before reading the play).
  2. They wanted to know what that slot defender was doing. They didn't want to run him off, they want a clear target for the FB. Funchess covered, that guy comes. Maybe that was something they saw on film and were trying to take advantage of. But there's a real possibility that they didn't want to force the FB to read "is that guy going with the WR, do I pick up the filling alley safety or does Funchess, so do I switch to his guy?" etc.

My guess is more #1 than #2, but it depends on what they saw on film.

 

Conclusion

So what’s the point in all this? Is it to blindly defend Borges? No. The intention isn’t to blindly defend the coaches. The intention is to look at what is happening and figure out where the issue is. Here is a very, very clear example of a bigger picture. It is execution. The coaches aren’t lying about that and it isn’t a copout answer. This is a play where Al Borges got everything he wanted and more from Nebraska. Nebraska, who had a player say they knew every play that was coming, did nothing to stop this play because of any tip or tendency. They stopped it because Michigan can’t get out of their own way. They can’t execute their most basic blocking scheme that they practice and rep more than any other. This points to youth, and this fails to a failure by the coaching staff to adequately teach these players to do one of their most fundamental plays. Both of those are under the execution umbrella.

And this goes beyond this play. This goes to the pass protection schemes. This goes to how I’ve seen veer option blocked. This goes to how every single run play pretty much ever this year is blocked. There are a few players that seem to “get it”, there are some that get it sometimes and not others, and then there are the young or inexperienced that clearly don’t. It’s a fundamental issue that isn’t play calling, it isn’t scheme, it isn’t about huddling or not huddling. It’s not about if you prefer certain screens (I’d like more screens), it’s not about play action or 3-step drops or hot routes. It is as simple as people continuing to fail at doing their jobs. That’s not just calling out the players; that’s also calling out the coaches for putting out a product, for not teaching their students, in a way that allows them to succeed. They are in positions to succeed, probably positions to the best of what they rep day in and day out in practice, but the mental aspect, the thought process, the confidence to know what they are doing without questioning it or doing it wrong is not there. And that is the major failure in this offense right now. This play only exemplifies that.

Comments

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 8:59 AM ^

Is insane, but to me it reveals that it wasn't a blitz because this play was tipped. If it was tipped, his path would not be straight at the QB because the OLB is already attacking that mesh point. So to me it seems like it was simply a called blitz with the SAM and nearest CB to the formation.

1. So on this play, I mean, you could call it luck, but they almost blitzed themselves right out of the play. The luck on this play was that Michigan couldn't get into their assignments, not that Nebraska had the perfect call on. Now, in other plays that Nebraska was successful I wouldn't necessarily call it luck either. I mean, they blitzed a lot because they knew Michigan's interior OL struggled. They played press on the outside because they knew routes couldn't develop. That's not luck, that's scouting and playing within the scheme of their defense that they've always run (lots of cover 1 with blitzes to fill gaps and simplify the defense for the DL).

2. Answered previously in point 1. I also don't think they really had time to completely change the play. Sometimes you get auto-checks from this sort of thing (blitz the corner off the edge once you see jet sweep motion, for instance), but this looks like a designed blitz from the DE, OLB, and slot defender more than a check.

3. Again, I think the slot defender simply takes the path directly to the QB. That's his target and that's the shortest distance. If it was a run blitz (which you would expect if they saw inverted veer coming) he would take Fitz first, which means gaining leverage. It's this sort of thing (targeting the QB rather than the ball carrier) that allowed Minnesota to kill Nebraska with jet sweeps.

So the answer I think is that they had a bltiz call and Michigan missed some assignments.

BradP

November 13th, 2013 at 9:17 AM ^

I watch the slo-mo replay Brian posted, and to me it looks like he isn't blitzing off the snap.  To me it looks like he reads run post snap and takes a couple steps upfield with his eyes on Kerridge before making a beeline for the mesh point.  The middle linebacker seems to get out of his stance and heading playside before the slot guy does.

He gets even with Butt at the line about the same time Fitz reaches the mesh point and dives toward the inside, avoiding a lunging Kerridge and forcing Fitz to start dancing before Devin even pulls.

It just doesn't look like a pass blitz to me.

I also wonder what in the world Devin is reading that makes him pull.  That slot LB maybe? Because there is no space in the line but a gap filled by the weakside linebacker.  Whether he stumbles or not, he's not getting more than a yard or two.

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 9:25 AM ^

Remember, he's watching for the ball to be snapped, he's not simply trying to time his blitz.

The key to knowing it's a called blitz and not just a read is the DE. Note how the DE squeezes inside to the B gap. That means there are two gaps outside of him that need to be filled immediately and if you don't send a blitzer the offense can easily form a wall across the whole defense, so a bltiz must be sent at least to fill the D gap (where the slot defender blitzes). This is a double blitz where the SAM blitzes C gap and the slot defender the D gap. The DE tries to take the OT inside and they try to isolate the TE between the blitzing LB and CB off the edge.

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 10:42 AM ^

This is kind of a misnomer, so let's clear that up (and allow ourselves to still use the term despite knowing that it isn't entirely accurate).

The scrape-exchange phrase comes from your typical read option play, where the QB reads the backside DE. If the DE scrapes across the formation after the RB, the QB keeps. If the DE stays home, the QB gives. So a scrape exchange is designed to make the read incorrect. The DE scrapes but there is a defender that takes over his position to take the QB, or exchanges assignments.

So, typically, the scrape exhange is designed to make the QB read his key defender incorrectly. There are two ways to do this, the simpler way and the way MSU did it.

The simpler way would be for the SAM to crash the QB and thus giving the QB the read to "give". But then there is a guy off the edge (slot guy) that is responsible for him that blitzes straight into him. Basically, the read player isn no longer the leverage or force player, you are exchanging that assignment with someone else.

Now MSU did it differently. What they did was they fanned out the DE very clearly at the snap to handle the RB. This made DG's read to keep. But then they blized a safety through the gap and that's the guy that ended up taking down DG (this was on the 3rd and short play shown in Brian's post).

So a few ways to do it, the first way is simpler because defenders are in a better position from the start and you're not hoping a DE can hold down a RB in space. So this play is designed really for the first one, though it can and should be able to adapt for the second type, it's just a much harder assignment for DG (he has to switch his read inside) and the FB (who now shouldn't be looking over the top for a player, that leverage player is the DE).

TennBlue

November 13th, 2013 at 11:08 AM ^

why doesn't Kerridge make it?  He seems taken completely by surprise and whiffs his block from being ou of position.  Why wasn't he focused on the DE rather than automatically breaking for the flat?

 

This seems to be yet another issue of coaching.  They seem to be repping the base play, with insufficient consideration for defensive responses and how to deal with them.

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 11:17 AM ^

That's just the key to seeing it on film, live, someone wouldn't try to make that read.

Most of the time Kerridges path is correct, FWIW. The problem is he didn't get his eyes out to his assigned defender quick enough. He should have seen after his first step that he needed to bend his path up to meet the defender. So basically he didn't read and react quick enough to it. Again, on player and coaching.

Michigan Arrogance

November 13th, 2013 at 7:18 AM ^

Great post, but my questions is, what happened to cause so much regression from CMU/ND to now? was it purely the switch to teams attacking the middle of the line? b/c this post don't square with that. It could be both, of course, but again, why would we regress to severely besides defenses seeming to attack the middle more?

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 9:02 AM ^

That's part of it. I'm going to copy and paste something I wrote on another post.

"People point to South Carolina and say it was a good offensive performance. Yeah, but probably a quarter of the plays and designs were plays that weren't installed previously before the bowl game with Denard, mostly in the pass game (they also ran unbalanced line). That stuff caught South Carolina a little off guard, Michigan put up points.

Then people ask why Michigan doesn't get back to what the did against ND? Well, ND has approximately half a data point to work from (the quarter of the bowl game, and whatever could actually be gathered from the CMU game). Most of what Michigan was doing, a lot of the added stuff, hadn't been shown yet. ND was still working from a relatively blank slate.

But then the ND game showed a lot of what Michigan was about. Then teams started seeing the weaknesses and the cracks. They could scout the offense, both in terms of tendencies (yes, the offense has tendencies) and in terms of personnel issues.

So now that that's all on film, the offense is struggling. They aren't worse. They've simply been scouting, they've been exposed. People understand the real tendencies Michigan has just like they understand the tendencies other offenses that are on film has."

So, on top of the interior OL being a pretty clear weak link, they also have some feel for how to defend on the back end, how to disrupt Gardner, what the appropriate keys are. It's basic scouting. It's not just Michigan, that's with every team. It's just Michigan started from more of a blank slate when they played ND. Now teams have some film on it.

mrkid

November 13th, 2013 at 7:42 AM ^

A Couple Questions for SC:
 
1.) If you were Hoke, what would you do with Funk after the season?
 
2.) Do you think Al Borges has widdled his playbook down to nothing, due to the fact the OL can't block the simplest schemes at this point in the season? I'm afraid this is how we're becoming so predictable. Not because its Borges tendencies but because that is all he can do at this point.
 
I have been behind Borges this entire season because I have seen plays (like this one) where the play calling is right but one or two things have broken down and killed the play. It always seems that its the OL breaking down.
 
It seems that OL issues are killing everything Borges wants to do. They can't pass protect, they can't do basic run schemes, I don't know what else Al Borges could do. How much of this is on Al Borges from a coaching perspective? Do you think he spends much time with the OL?
 
The only time I have been down on Borges was in the Nebraska game, right after we get the muffed punt recovery and he calls two run plays for losses. That was so asinine. It appeared that he didn't want to run pass plays for fear of taking sacks and getting out of field goal range.
 
Great write up. I always enjoy reading what you have to say. Its really helpful to get another prospective, one that isn't so (ahem) negative.
 
 
 
 
 

BradP

November 13th, 2013 at 9:00 AM ^

Plays are not called in a vacuum, and play calling is not the sole duty of an offensive coordinator.  If an OC's function was to string together theoretically sound plays, without regard for the abilities of the players or past results, Michigan wouldn't have to pay theirs $600,000 (highest in the B1G for OCs by a chunk).  There would be litterally 10's of thousands of qualified candidates to choose from.

As one of the highest paid coordinators in the nation, he should be able to make his limited resources work, rather than managing complete ineptitude even when faced with a terrible opponent (as Nebraska's defense is).

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 9:13 AM ^

1. Without being at practice, I really can't give a realistic answer, in all honesty. It's hard to say what's going on with the players, if it's frustration, confidence, things that the coach just can't control. I mean, maybe they are a lot better in practice but just aren't experienced enough to take it to game day. But, as an outsider, the OL seems to be breaking down far too often, even more than it should. I am certainly not in the FIRE FUNK! crowd, because I don't think it's that obvious. Youth is a legit excuse. But from my POV, he should probably be let go after the season. The unit isn't improving at a pace that it should, in my opinion.

2. I think he's reduced it, but I wouldn't say he's reduced it to a degree that it's that basic. I've been of the mind that the predictability thing is being vastly overstated. If the people claiming predictability watched other teams they'd say those offenses were predictable if the offense wasn't working. Now, I think Michigan leans a little more on tendencies because of their TEs. None of their TEs are very well rounded yet (partially because they are young and/or inexperienced) and so he leans on it essentially to get the best players on the field at that time. But I don't think the Nebraska player that said what he did meant it like Michigan fans believe he did. All he was saying ws that his defensive staff prepared the players well, scouted Michigan well, and they had a good feel for the tendencies and keys because of that. He was praising his coaches.

I certainly do think OL is hampering a lot of Borges play calls, and that's with making play calls to help them out. Max protection, slide schemes, sticking mostly with Power blocking, so on and so forth. So yes, I do think very much he is trying to call plays to help them, to work around them as much as possible, and they still aren't getting it done in many regards.

I don't think he spends much time with the OL. I think he spends a lot of time talking to Funk about their abilities, what they need to be doing and working on, etc, but he's got QBs to work with and he's got an offense to run from a manager standpoint. He can't afford to micromanage to a degree that he spends much time with the OL.

Oddly enough, that's when I got pretty upset too. IMO, the 2nd and 9 playcall was on of the worst play call he's made even theoretically since he's been at Michigan.

Professor Prepuces

November 13th, 2013 at 8:54 AM ^

I don't understand what purpose this post could possibly serve other than trolling. This play could work if it was executed better. Ok, and? Didn't Brian say that? Don't you and Brian agree that taking Funchess and making him ineligible is stupid? I understand you are trying to get clicks for your own blog. And you think the best way to do that is to use perfidious arguments and, when people get understandably mad at you, you call them a troll. You are simply the best. If you call a play that requires your tight end and fullback to block but they haven't been able to block all year why would you expect that it work now? I haven't seen your response be anything but troll. Please stop, it's annoying.

LSA91

November 13th, 2013 at 9:13 AM ^

I think the Brian-Space Coyote debate is really helpful.

They agree that the OL is playing terribly, and that that has to fall on the coaching staff.

IMHO, the question where they disagree is:

- Given the terrible current state of the OL, are there other plays that Al should be calling to maximize offensive possession?

I'm not smart enough to be sure I really understand either side, but it's great to see both sides argued.  

I'm sure I grossly oversimplify things, but if I get it, Brian and Ace basically argue that Al should have recognized these problems and adopted a more spread style offense, and SpaceCoyote argues that no offense would be much better given the current state of the team.

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 9:22 AM ^

  1. How this play is actually designed to be run.
  2. This is a read.
  3. Inverted veer isn't a play in isolation, it fits within the scheme of the offense
  4. It's practiced plenty because it's our base run play (again, it's not a play in isolation that is part of a grab bag approach)
  5. There is a valid reason to have a FB on the field
  6. The FB is used as a constraint that is often claimed we don't have (it's a lateral constraint rather than a vertical one)
  7. Plays weren't being tipped.
  8. This play should have worked, playcalling is not the issue
  9. Execution, regardless of how cliche, is the issue. That comes down to players and coaches

So those are some pretty high level and low level disagreements. It also clarifies the point I've been making since the beginning. And also now where in the post did I link my blog, so how am I just trying to generate clicks for my blog. So how is it trolling again? And how is you not constantly calling me out directly, unprovoked, the last 3 weeks or whatever not trolling?

Professor Prepuces

November 13th, 2013 at 10:20 AM ^

First I should say that you enumerate quite a long list of disagreements here that you did not list in your actual post. What you said was: This is the problem that I've had with the "too many things that they aren't good at anything" Brian has made that case explicitly numerous times. So without equivocation this is your thesis. Fine, make that argument. But this post does not make the case for it at all. Instead you play semantic games. It's a read. It's power blocking. Right but you still agree that it was stupidly designed and yet...is the perfect call to make? And now you, in your indignance, call me a troll. Exactly as I predicted. You do that every time someone disagrees with you.

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 10:34 AM ^

The play was designed perfectly (thus my point about using a FB, why to use a FB, what the point of the play is, you know, the vast majority of the post) and that execution screwed it up. You call things semantics, but there pretty important concepts with regards to the play, especially because they were a major part of Brian's argument against the play.

You took one part of my post, one of my points, and used it to summarize the whole thing, which I believe is called "taking it out of context". Did you not read the conclusion section of the post, which concludes the points that I've made in the post.

You're argument makes no sense. But you call me a troll because I have a different POV. Again, how am I trolling? Answer that rather than going around it and just repeating that I'm a troll. In fact, contribute something other than calling me a troll or deriding people that happen to respect my POV just one time in the last 4 weeks. Literally every one of your posts in the last 4 weeks has been directly at me, almost always unprovoked, or about someone that agrees with something I said. You contribute nothing else to the board besides that. That's the definition of a troll. You are trying to troll me.

And I don't call most people that disagree with me a troll. In fact, I've had many good conversations with people that disagree with me (look within this post for examples). I call people trolls that explicitly call me out without provocation because they disagree with me, which you have done not just here, but many other places recently. And then gone on to call out anyone that agrees with my POV things like "sock puppets" and other such things.

Professor Prepuces

November 13th, 2013 at 11:02 AM ^

I'm going to try and help you out, because it looks like you need it. I highly recommend reading what you wrote very carefully. Because you said on multiple occasions that you don't agree with lining up Funchess as ineligible to catch. And I specifically wrote this in my first reply. That when people look at the play itself and disagree with Borges, this is what we see. And you see it too. And so we agree. And yet you write "The play was designed perfectly". I guess we have different definitions of perfect. I did not take your quote out of context. I'm trying to help you. That is your thesis statement. I'm sorry that you are having trouble with this, but essentially it summarizes your stance in relation to the fire Borges crowd. I want you to think about this for a few hours, it may help you. You may not have noticed this, but you called me a troll because I "constantly calling me out directly, unprovoked". So essentially you are calling me a troll because I disagree with you. Now you may not know this, but that is not the commonly accepted definition of an internet troll. This is why people get so mad at you. This is why I get so mad at you too.

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 12:00 PM ^

"As I said, I hate covering receivers. It is a tip to the defense that it's likely run (where, they don't know). That said, you would be surprised how many defenses will still trot a DB out to cover that guy.

Anyway, the reason here is because Borges wanted a guy to block the playside safety. He wanted to form an alley on that side for Fitz. The FB takes the slot defender, Funchess takes the safety, and Gallon takes the CB. Everyone else is sealed inside. That's the only reason he did it, was to get the play completely blocked playside, which it should have been.

They need to cover the TE or Funchess because he wanted to run to strength and wanted that slot blocker. So the TE or Funchess had to be covered. Now, typically I'd say "alright, cover the TE, don't cover your 2nd biggest threat". But a couple things could have gone into the thinking here.

  1. But have the TE off the line you open up plays to the backside of the formation with the inverted veer look (including counter schemes and how the FB would leak out into the flat later). So in a way, it keeps the box defenders more honest, which they succeeded in doing (they didn't all crash playside on the snap before reading the play).
  2. They wanted to know what that slot defender was doing. They didn't want to run him off, they want a clear target for the FB. Funchess covered, that guy comes. Maybe that was something they saw on film and were trying to take advantage of. But there's a real possibility that they didn't want to force the FB to read "is that guy going with the WR, do I pick up the filling alley safety or does Funchess, so do I switch to his guy?" etc.

My guess is more #1 than #2, but it depends on what they saw on film."

So I explained I didn't like it but there is reason. I don't necessarily like the alignment, but the playcall and design gets exactly what it wants, so it's clearly not all bad and it has reasons for doing what it does.

On top of that, my conclusions

"So what’s the point in all this? Is it to blindly defend Borges? No. The intention isn’t to blindly defend the coaches. The intention is to look at what is happening and figure out where the issue is. Here is a very, very clear example of a bigger picture. It is execution. The coaches aren’t lying about that and it isn’t a copout answer. This is a play where Al Borges got everything he wanted and more from Nebraska. Nebraska, who had a player say they knew every play that was coming, did nothing to stop this play because of any tip or tendency. They stopped it because Michigan can’t get out of their own way. They can’t execute their most basic blocking scheme that they practice and rep more than any other. This points to youth, and this fails to a failure by the coaching staff to adequately teach these players to do one of their most fundamental plays. Both of those are under the execution umbrella.

And this goes beyond this play. This goes to the pass protection schemes. This goes to how I’ve seen veer option blocked. This goes to how every single run play pretty much ever this year is blocked. There are a few players that seem to “get it”, there are some that get it sometimes and not others, and then there are the young or inexperienced that clearly don’t. It’s a fundamental issue that isn’t play calling, it isn’t scheme, it isn’t about huddling or not huddling. It’s not about if you prefer certain screens (I’d like more screens), it’s not about play action or 3-step drops or hot routes. It is as simple as people continuing to fail at doing their jobs. That’s not just calling out the players; that’s also calling out the coaches for putting out a product, for not teaching their students, in a way that allows them to succeed. They are in positions to succeed, probably positions to the best of what they rep day in and day out in practice, but the mental aspect, the thought process, the confidence to know what they are doing without questioning it or doing it wrong is not there. And that is the major failure in this offense right now. This play only exemplifies that."

Which conclude the other things I listed. You can't take a small portion of one section and claim that exact thing is my thesis.

So again, how am I troll? Internet troll - "a person who sows discord on the internet by starting argument or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages... with the deliberate intent of provoking readings into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion." Ummm... that's exactly what you're doing. Getting off topic, calling me out, calling others out, and trying to provoke people.

LJ

November 13th, 2013 at 11:29 AM ^

Professor Prepuces, this is maybe the most condescending, asshole post I have ever read on this site, and that's saying something.  SC is one of the very, VERY few people keeping this board readable and adding value.  I have no problem with you disagreeing with him and criticizing his post.  I have a huge problem with you lecturing him on how "you're trying to help him," poor, lost Space Coyote, after he spent hours breaking down a play and helping us all understand the nuance of the offense.

CooperLily21

November 13th, 2013 at 11:52 AM ^

These are the kinds of comments that get blown up in the old point system, forcing the professor to rethink his approach.  Instead, everyone is forced to abide by the "don't be an asshole" standard that the professor thinks does not apply to him.

CooperLily21

November 13th, 2013 at 11:04 AM ^

Calm down, guy.  SC responded defensively because you, doucebaggingly, attacked him from the get-go in your original comment.  Drink the Kool-Aid all you want, but don't let it cloud your judgment so much that you ignore valid, respectfully-submitted disagreements with Brian's analysis.  Many people have questioned Brian's ability to critique specific plays due to his lack of having ever coached, for right or for wrong.  SC has coached, knows Xs and Os, and provides great counter-analysis and additional points that even Brian may not have thought of.

For the record, if there is anyone who is not open to criticism in his posting its Brian.  SC is the one poster that Brian actually acknowledges and banters with.  Respect SC for posting a counter-argument.  If you don't agree, don't agree.  Just don't come out attacking and not expect SC to respond defensively.  In other words, stop being a douche.

BradP

November 13th, 2013 at 10:42 AM ^

1)  Is the main difference here is that Brian thinks Butt picked up his designated assignment and you think he messed up?  There are a lot of examples of Michigan assigning a blocker to the option guy, which is what Butt is doing here.

4)  The primary cause of failure - Kerridge's block - is probably not practiced much.  And Devin is having a lot of trouble with reads, which is not a part of the typical base, but of the utmost importance here.

 

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 10:49 AM ^

1. If you watch how Michigan has run QB power int he past with Denard you'll note some small differences in the blocking. Specifically you'll not important difference at both RB positions and how they handle it. It can also be notes that DG hasn't run a straight QB power to date (he has run counter power). Why? Because he doesn't have the footwork to run it in constricted areas. He's a long strider that can't pick through the traffic. He's not designed to run straight up power. Plus you can look at DG's eyes and see he's trying to make a read. The things that happen on the outside do not support that this isn't a read, and in fact support that it is a read. Paskortz failed to make the adjustment to the 6i technique, and you can see that in the blocking assignments. This isn't necessarily the main difference, it's pointing out a difference, it's part of the picture. It helps explain why the blocking assignments are messed up to, so it's crucial to understanding how the play is designed to be run.

4. Kerridge does practice this block quite often. They ran the same play against MSU. They've run similar blocking schemes for the FB as far back as Minnesota (with Kerridge lined up in the same exact position, the play was just run from under center and Kerridge was in an offset I). I really don't think it's from a lack or reps. It's a failure to execute (again, both player and coach at fault there).

reshp1

November 13th, 2013 at 10:09 AM ^

A guy with coaching experience takes the time to break down a play with diagrams explaining the underlining theory and blocking assignments and you don't think there's any value to that? Regardless of whether this is a rebuttal to Brian's front page or not, this is really good content. In fact Brian routinely asks for the coaching guys to double check his interpretations, so it's not like this is FU to Brian either.

CompleteLunacy

November 13th, 2013 at 12:37 PM ^

"Trolling is an Internet slang term used to describe any Internet user behavior that is meant to intentionally anger or frustrate someone else. It is often associated with online discussions where users are subjected to offensive or superfluous posts and messages in order to provoke a response."

SC is not trolling. He's merely providing his perspective as a coach, and how his perspective differs from Brian. 

Whoever you think makes a more compelling argument, the fact is SC ain't trolling nobody. And it says a lot that you think he is. Unless you think every well-informed opposing opinion is trolling.

BTW, I tend to think what you are doing right here is more trolling than what SC did. Here's a list of things you have said that have nothing to do with the subject of SC' post (and thus qualify as trolling):

1. "I'm going to try and help you out, because it looks like you need it. I highly recommend reading what you wrote very carefully." - Really, dude? What the fuck? You may not agree with him, but is it so much to ask for you to respect his opinions? He's not Joe Nobody. He's built a reputation on this site for his knowledge as a coach, and his well-thought out opinions based on that knowledge. Maybe don't insult the guy's intelligence? It is quite OK to disagree with someone without being a complete dick about it.

2." First I should say that you enumerate quite a long list of disagreements here that you did not list in your actual post" - It's called READING COMPREHENSION. SC doesn't make a Sparksnotes list, thus he doesn't say it? What universe does that make ANY sense? It's not that hard to conclude those same things based on his words vs. Brian's post. Maybe SC is a little too verbose...but cripes, man, what the fuck does this have to do with anything?

3. "Right on cue comes the sock puppet" - PURE UNADULTERED TROLLING RIGHT THERE. I'm not going to even waste more time on that one.

4. "I want you to think about this for a few hours, it may help you." - See #1

5. "So essentially you are calling me a troll because I disagree with you." Pot, kettle, black, and so forth.

6. "Instead you play semantic games. It's a read. It's power blocking." - It's a read vs. it's not a read is not just "semantics". The power blocking thing is also not semantics, because it specifically is used to argue that Borges' offense isn't this grab-bag caricature that Brian thinks. Again, you don't have to agree. But fuck man, it ain't semantics.

7. "I understand you are trying to get clicks for your own blog." - Where does he link his blog, exactly? If Brian has a problem with this post, he would tell SC. It's his blog, he can do whatever he wants to. But I can guarantee you, Brian may not agree with SC but he will be OK with leaving this post up. I think they respect each other quite well.

In summary, go away.

 

 

bubblelevel

November 13th, 2013 at 9:18 AM ^

Regarding the RB's - Fitz is a senior. Is it fair to assume he should be making little to no mistakes?  Kerridge is a walk-on therefore had the grades/smarts to get accepted on his own.

To SC point about "getting through to them".  Is the denominator on this part of this play Jackson?

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 9:27 AM ^

So V. Smith had great pass protection technique and Jackson was his coach the whole way through too. So it's hard to say what changed in that time. As for FBs, I honestly don't know who is coaching them. I'm not sure if it's Jackson (RBs Coach) of Ferrigno (TEs Coach) as a lot of the assignments for the FB are more like TE/U-Back type stuff.

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 11:20 AM ^

But, as an example, the same coach that works with the SAM has tended to work the the WDE. In that sense, the FB is much more like the TE/U/H guys than the RB. Which is why I don't know. But my guess is you're correct.

mGrowOld

November 13th, 2013 at 10:06 AM ^

Thank you SC.  I remain staunchly on team "Fire Borges (and Funk)" but posts like this certainly illistrate why people like you, The Last Hoke, Reshp 1, Reader 71, Sten and others are not.  I really appreciate you taking the time to point out why this particular play could've worked (no...maybe SHOULD'VE worked) as well as its inherent flaws (like covering Funchess).

This was excellently done.  If time permits I would love to see you do a UFR on the offense someday to see how your perception of plays, specifically RPS, differs from Brian.  That would be interesting as hell.

Oh one more thing.  HERE WE GO BROWNIES.....HERE WE GO!

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 10:18 AM ^

I respect the other side of the argument, because it isn't a simple issue. I'm not even fully on the fire Funk side of things, I just kind of lean that way from an outsiders perspective. It comes across as being very on the "keep Borges" side, mostly because I'm taking a stand against the opposing view, not necessarily because I think everything is great.

It's why when people try to ask me frankly my opinions rather than trying to flesh them out in a debate, I typically say something along the lines of "I recognize issues, but I also recognize what is trying to be done. The fix for those issues isn't something that as simple as just letting someone go, it may mean that needs to be done, but I can't say that with certainty. But there are issues. There are issues with the teaching of the players, there are issues with the players taking in that knowledge, the question is what's the best approach to fix that. In my opinion, it's not by firing Borges."

So that's really my side of the argument (and why I crossed out "the opposing side", because I don't think it's a 2-sided issue, I think it's much more complex than that).

Also, big game for the Browns this weekend against the in-state rival. The office is a bit weird with people on both sides of that one (never experienced the professional-side of in-state rivals) 

reshp1

November 13th, 2013 at 10:00 AM ^

Just to make sure I've got this correct.

1. This actually was designed to be an option but the U back blocked the guy that was supposed to be optioned.

2. DG didn't have the anticipated read so by default he's supposed to pull.

Why does DG head back into the unblocked MLB inside if the play is designed that he also goes outside into the same alley as Fitz was supposed to go? Just panic?

I really appreciate and enjoy this and your other contributions and not just because I tend to think it's execution and teaching like you do. I (and Brian in a different way) interpreted the play totally differently and after reading this I think you are right and we were wrong. Just goes to show there's a lot of ways to see how a play was supposed to work so it's always good to get another perspective, especially from someone with coaching experience.

Space Coyote

November 13th, 2013 at 10:23 AM ^

1. Correct, that is my read of this play and I'm fairly confident that's the way it is intended to be. Brian noted something similar that looked like veer with Denard but was actually Power, but you see some differences in the blocking that are fundamental)

2. Correct, I believe DG looked at his read, it was blocked, then tried to find another read and there wasn't one, so kept.

3. The play for the QB is designed to go inside the read player, so DG is trying to attack the C gap area but the the mass of bodies forces that to move a bit further inside. Either way, he has to step up through the formation before going out into Fitz's lane (different than the sweep play that Michigan ran against OSU that was responsible for the long Denard TD). So he's got to go up and out. I actually think if he wouldn't have stumbled that he would have gone up and cut off the but of the Schofield/Paskorz blocks and gotten out into that same alley, but I think he lost his footing as he was attempting to step up and out and it resulted in just being up and smash.

CooperLily21

November 13th, 2013 at 10:31 AM ^

THIS is what makes MGoBoard participation great.  THIS is why I participate on the Board.  Posts like this redeem all the other idiot threads/comments out there.

Thanks SC.  You quickly became one of my favorite posters and I learn more about Xs and Os from you than from anyone else here (Brian included).  You clearly know your sh-t and have real-world experience with it.  Like you said, its one thing to question plays that are being called - meaning question the offensive scheme that a coach runs generally - and a wholly other thing to understand why plays fail.

I still put full blame on the coaching staff for not getting their kids ready to play.  I have a hard time believing these kids are not hard enough workers or intelligent enough to understand their duties UNLESS they are not being taught properly.  This isn't San Diego State or Ball State - I would argue that these kids are generally smarter and more talented athletes than any that Hoke & Co. have dealt with in the past.  If this is the case, its even more damming examples of coaching failures.

#FireSomeone

Goblue89

November 13th, 2013 at 11:05 AM ^

First off, thanks for putting this together.  I disagree with some of the things you mentioned but do appreciate the work.  My only real question is who exactly are they optioning?  I'm sorry if I missed that but it seems to me they are not optioning anyone and is why I really do agree with the compliants against Borges.  Either he doesn't know how (doubtful) or refuses to do so.  One thing I noticed is that in your diagram of how the play should be run against the defense Nebraska used you have the QB reading the SAM.  He is the read player.  However Michigan blocks him with Paskorz.  Again, who exactly are they opitioning off of?  Is this by design or a missed assignment?  And lastly, I still think they could have came back to this play with Paskorz taking the slot defender and Kerridge running straight downhill for the SAM.