copied response from DC thread

Submitted by gsimmons85 on
this was my latest repsonse to the "my thoughts on who might be DC" thread... I figured i would repost it as a diary.... for those of you that have followed the season, and listened to what was happening, this is a rehash. For revisionist wanna-be coaches that didnt really pay attention, you might learn something. 1. 4 vs 3 man front. Shafer is a 4-3 guy. However shafer likes the 3-4 okie defense, ESPICALLY vs spread teams. Most of the top dc's in the country use some type of nickle package against spread teams, unless they have safeties and lb's that play well in space. SO shafer ran a lot of 3 man fronts against the spread teams and as his nickel package. All dlmen prefer 4 man fronts becasue they are dlmen, and they want them and their buddies to make plays, and believe that they can. But straight 4 man fronts, against spread teams is suicide unless you have lb's that make big plays in space (michigan did not this year) the other alternative is that 4-2 nickle that shafer used some as well getting thompson off the field for harrison. The fact that michigan was not good on 3 downs had ZERO to do with scheme and everything to do with the fact that our lb's and safties were not very good in coverage. doenst matter if we had 50 dlmen out there... the 3-3 exepriment was something the rr people wanted to try, and that was the perfect week to do it.. nothing at stake, wr turned qb who we didnt think would be able to throw, etc. it didnt work, so be it... The less spread we saw, the less 3 man fronts we ran, except in passing situations... becasue the best way to blitz is with deception, and the 3 man front offers more deception and flexablity of coverages.. 2. this year vs last. 2 words, englemon-adams. In shafers system these would be the top two safties in the country. michigan lossing them was huge, and no defense can survive the type of safety play we had this year, unless their lb's were studs. I have never seen a defense of michigan implement as many coverage schemes as this year, and that was 100% due to the fact that shafer was trying to cover up major personal issues at safety, and LB.... 3. THe wings fell off the freekin plane. IT is ok to have an opinion but dont say "we couldnt tackle or cover, but the rest is on shafer" no we couldnt tackle or cover, thats all that has to be said. It doesnt matter if it was tenuta, veneables, Amato, Gruden, etc. just like it takes time to implement a zone read offense, it takes time to implement the techniques needed to run a complicated defense. Shafer was a frustrated coach that couldnt spend the time teaching the fundamentals that were sorely lacking as the season progressed.. and it became more and more evident that there was not the personel to fill the holes that were hurting us. Look for major improvements next year. if we dont see it, then you can START to talk about coaching... but even then, it took me 4 years at this school to really implement the type of defense that we can run now. coaches have to be able to fit the right schemes vs offenses, and shafer did that. Then coaches have to teach the fundamentals and the techniques to implement thier system and give the players a chance to make plays, and that takes more than a season to implement. very seldom was michigan out of possition to make a play, that speaks more about players than coaches, obviously... the coaches for the most part had kids in places to be successfull, but by sometimes a very small margin, did not exectue well. When a lack of exectuion happends on offense you lose yards, when it happends on defense you give up td's... simple as that...

Comments

Wolv54

December 15th, 2008 at 8:58 PM ^

you use there will always be those who want to fire the coaches no matter what the facts say. In my line of work, I use the phrase "Manage by the facts" which means to take the facts and make your decision based upon what you know and what your experience has taught you. Shafer's schemes were not flawed, but the execution was lacking. The Purdue game, as I have said on here a 1000 times, was a RR call all the way. It is not insane to run a 3 man line on 3rd and long and drop 8 into coverage, but when you can't take the proper drops and squeez down your zone after 8 games, you've got problems. I think getting rid of Shafer would be a huge mistake as I actually liked his defensive Philosophy a lot. If we were to apply the logic people spout off about when talking about the defense, take a look at the 109th ranked offense. Do you think the talent issues at QB are any less critical at a position like LB and Safety? GSimmons, I know you try to argue with the masses, but you've got to understand that 90% of these people have no idea what they are looking at on an analytical level when they watch the games. I read a post on Rivals today where a guy said he swore he saw Helmuth line up at DE in the Purdue game and then he said that Helmuth played the 5 technique which he explained was playing directly over the tackle...I always was in the 4 technique when I went right over the tackle, but maybe they call their shades diffferently. You see, I agree with you, but you fighting a heroic but losing battle with most of these folks. If you look at the best statistical defenses in the country this year there is one thing in common with them all irregardless of 3-4, 4-3, 3-3-5, or okies or 4-2-5; the men in charge have been at that school for several years. The defensive coaches have had the time to install their defenses, recruit players for their defense, and time to teach the kids the fundamentals. Any kind of evaluation on Shafer at this point is premature and based on a small sample when the guy has an entire career of success. If we treated RR like we do Shafer, then why not fire RR? Come on, people, Shafer needs more time and can build something great, he just needs the time. I've played and coached football for almost 25 years now and while I love the wolverines, I get frustrated by some of the fans who just can't enjoy the experience of being a fan of the greatest college football program in the history of college football. I never try to judge players or coaches because you have to be on that stage to appreciate what they have to do to perform at the highest levels. If RR makes a move at DC, I will really question the move, but I doubt he makes the change. I wouldn't be surprised if Shafer quits if he can't operate his defense with his own position coaches without someone wanting to try some 3-3-5.

gsimmons85

December 15th, 2008 at 9:08 PM ^

you know i agree with you. but as an educator and teacher of the game, i bring that same attitude here. I feel like if i can help 1 or 2 people enjoy the game better than my frustration is warrented. Untill of course it effects my happiness and enjoyment, but that then is my problem. About your tech talk. Wing t guys use a lot different nnumber of thier shades, and i was forced a few years ago to change my shade numbering to fit the offensive coaches, becasue we had so many kids going both ways. talk about confusing, it sucked trying to teach a kid a 2i or 3i, and have to think about what number it was now called.. haha.. we use a straight, 1-10 numbering now... i miss the confusing 7 6 9 on the TE numbers...

Wolv54

December 15th, 2008 at 9:29 PM ^

I have no problem with folks not knowing football on a level equivalent to someone who coaches or plays the game, but when you take that lack of knowledge and start calling out players and coaches and demanding people get fired, then I get a little defensive and speak up. You can be a fan just to be a fan but when you start calling people out, in my opinion, you've crossed the line. Now, I'm a 4-3 guy through and through and I'm starting to understand this Okie stuff a little more, but I was watching the Georgia HS State Championships last Friday at the Dome and there was a team running the Wing T and they were just crushing the 4 man front in front of them and rolling for serious yards. As I sitting there watching this, I start thinking, what if you could attack the center of that offensive line with some big ugglies and then have some LBs fill the holes using their quickness and blow up some of those plays before they get their head of steam. The Wing T team won and they were unable to stop them with the 4 man front as they got no push all afternoon. Anyway, I'm starting to see the benefits of the 3 man when it comes to disguising the coverages and your blitzes, but I have to think that it takes quite a while to get all of those guys to work together as a cohesive unit. 7 is the inside shade, 6 was heads up(I think), and 9 was the outside shade when I was LB/DE at Brighton High, but that was many many moons ago.

gsimmons85

December 15th, 2008 at 9:41 PM ^

now our te goes 8 9 10... easier i guess if your not use to the old 50 shade terminology... ill still go back to it when im no longer with a wing-t coach.. about your okie 3 man front stuff. you are right when i was tlaking to several acc coaches last year they all said that 3 man fronts are much harder to block (from a spread) then even fronts. its why we ran so much odd front stuff this year.. but yeah it has taken 3 years of hard coaching to get it the way it needs to be.. now we are pretty dam good at it... look for michigan to make similar improvments...

Ernis

December 15th, 2008 at 9:32 PM ^

Your perspective is invaluable, gsimmons. Some have played in college; many have played in high school; even more play on the Xbox or Sony; but none of it compares to actually implementing schemes on the field and running a team. And so, thanks for providing a voice of legitimate expertise.

Callahan

December 15th, 2008 at 9:34 PM ^

I think that if something was going to happen, it probably would have by now. If Shafer is still recruiting, I'd guess he's staying. I can't see them letting him go out recruiting if they were planning on replacing him after the bowl games. I figure they would let him go now and replace him later.

arod

December 15th, 2008 at 10:34 PM ^

If RR, a coach with many years of experience, decides to get rid of Shafer (which I don't think he will), then would you think that Shafer did a poor job?

Wolv54

December 16th, 2008 at 2:51 AM ^

No, I wouldn't think that based upon what I saw on the field. RR may be a great coach and have a record of being successful but that doesn't make him impervious to making mistakes or bad decisions. Firing Shafer would be a mistake in my opinion based upon his track record and the known deficiencies on D. MT is a 5th round or later NFL pick and DW is probably gonna get better the next two years, but part of their problems come from the lack of confidence in the safeties. The poor tackling and the bad angles are something you would hope would improve with experience and coaching, but I look at the position coaches to handle that in practice. I think Shafer was frustrated that what was being taught on the practice field was not being carried over into the games. I think making a change would be a mistake as we'd be starting all over in the spring teaching new techniques and new terminology and you don't want the guys to be thinking out there. At some point, they have to read and react instantly and that comes through repitition. It takes a while to get the guys to perform at that level and they did get better at the end of the year. I think next year we'll see am improved defense, better LB play, and some changes in the secondary. Shafer has some really good schemes/plays from a coaching stand point. We should see our interceptions go up next year and the sack numbers as well as the coverage improves. If we are mediocre next year, then it's time to see where the disconnect is on D. Sometimes, it's a disconnect in the teaching; sometimes it's the teacher. I am not sold on Tony Gibson and Hopson as position coaches. Vance Bedford took the Florida secondary from the bottom of the SEC in 2007 to one of the top teams in the nation, so position coaches IMO, are as important as a DC. Sometimes the scheme is sound but the execution is lacking and that is what I witnessed last year. I am not down on RR at all, but I would think that a man with his success and experience understands that building a defense takes as long as it takes to implement his offense fully. We as fans had expectations that the defense was going to be solid because of the Dline, which was excellent, but the changes at LB and safety really became our Achilles' Heel. Teams went to the quick pass to negate the pass rush and we never seemed to be able to improve our man coverage and zone execution from the LBs and safeties. I would like to see a true corner playing on the slot in 3wr sets, but even that comes down to a one on one matchup.

Blue Durham

December 16th, 2008 at 8:37 AM ^

There obviously could be other reasons to can Shafer other than his performance (sacrificial lamb if RR gets too much heat from the season). Most who post on this site are in full support of RR and what he is trying to do; that 1 year is just not enough time given the state of the team when he took over. Why does it seem that Shafer does not get the same consideration here? The defense had just about as much problems going in as the offense, with its primary weakness both LB's and safeties, which made the team very vulnerable up the middle of the field.

Magnus

December 16th, 2008 at 8:47 AM ^

I'm only speaking for myself here, but I saw more improvement from the offense as the year went along. I think that might be one reason for the Rodriguez support but the anger at Shafer. Potential stars like Odoms, Shaw, Minor, and Molk appeared on offense. On defense, who got better as the season went along? Mouton. Anyone else...? Our offensive stinkers were early in the season. We weren't able to throw the ball against Northwestern or OSU, but we were able to run it. We did both against Purdue and Minnesota. But we were still letting up big plays against Northwestern, OSU, Purdue, etc. And as much as we all wanted to think we were in the game against OSU, I don't care how many TFL's you get...if you're still allowing 60 yard runs and 60 yard passes, you don't have a good defense.

Blue Durham

December 16th, 2008 at 8:58 AM ^

the offense was soooo bad at the beginning of the year, it could only get better. I thought that the DL played well at the beginning of the year, and became a force after the Purdue game. I also thought that Stevie Brown played much better towards the end of the year, and greatly improved himself to "below average."

Blue Durham

December 16th, 2008 at 9:11 AM ^

have a pretty good interception and return in the OSU game as well? Have to give credit where credit is due. I hope that he continues to improve for next year and the safeties are not a complete liability.

funkywolve

December 16th, 2008 at 1:13 AM ^

This isn't something that just popped up this year. Poor tackling and bad pursuit angles have been a problem for the defense for a while now. I am by no means as knowledgeable about the schemes and such as some here but I would think solid improvement in tackling and pursuit angles would go a long way in improving the defense no matter what type of scheme is being run.

Magnus

December 16th, 2008 at 8:25 AM ^

Where do you think Steve Brown belongs on this defense? I have a hard time believing that he CAN'T be successful, but something's obviously not clicking for him. I don't think he belongs at free safety because he's too undisciplined in his deep zones and at tackling in open space. I think he'd be a better fit as a SS in the 3-3-5 or even like an OLB in the 3-4. If we continue running a 4-3, I think Shafer should play him in the box more and send him on more blitzes. I really hope the Shafer thing works, but with upperclassmen OR talented young players (Warren, Ezeh) all over the place last year, it didn't. That makes me skeptical. It's one thing to implement new schemes that fail with a bunch of freshmen and sophomores. It's another when a bunch of those guys are seniors. Perhaps it was just a matter of those guys being unwilling to change... I don't know.

jamiemac

December 16th, 2008 at 9:34 AM ^

...Stevie Brown should play closer to the line of scrimmage.....maybe as one of those hybrid OLB/S. I like his big play ability in those roles....and, yes, maybe he's not the best tackler and might not bring somebody down as he charges on a run or pass blitz, but closer to the LOS, he will have teammates who can clean up. In the open field, 20 yards down the field, he is on an island and nobody can clean up his misses.

Mr. Maizenblue

December 16th, 2008 at 9:36 AM ^

Straight from the horses mouth you are defending.I give you this. Shafer explained his defensive philosophy this way: "Scheme is overrated, I've always believed that. What's not overrated is getting your kids to play with great effort, great attitude and great enthusiasm. Those are things we can control on a daily basis, and that will be my primary goal. . . . The philosophy of our defense is attack-oriented, attack and react. We want to be a defense this is multiple, that is always putting pressure and forcing the hand of the offense. We want to be a penetrating defense. If you're going to (ask) what our objectives are? The one thing we want to do is stop the run, force them to throw the ball on first down, create negative plays on first down . . . and get ourselves in position to force them to throw the ball. Get them one-dimensional. We don't want to be a defense that sits back. We want to be a defense that creates turnovers and scores touchdowns."[11] Similarly, he told the Detroit Free Press: "We're an attack defense; scheme is overrated. All schemes can work if you tackle and keep the ball in front. We're an aggressive defense, force the offense's hand. We're going to stop the run on early downs and force the pass. We'll get situations where when we are forcing the pass, we hit the quarterback, forcing him to throw the ball into coverage."[14] Speaking to the Toledo Blade, Shafer said three goals are paramount in his defensive game plan: stopping the run, pressuring the quarterback and "creating on defense." Shafer said: "Our primary goal is always stop the run, lead the conference in sacks, lead the conference in interceptions and defensive scores. That's the way it's always been everywhere I've been, and that's the way it'll be here at Michigan."[13] Sounds to me like he is a Turnover, Sack, TD guy. He doesn't care about okie, nickel,4-3,3-4,3-3-5 orany other Scheme. "We don't want to be a defense that sits back" WE DID. Cushion after Cushion on third down. When he was hired thats all I read, was his blitz mentality, I didn't see the aggressive "attack" mode he wants. I saw more of a bend, but don't break mentality. In all sincerity, You DO know your stuff Gsimmons, and sound like a damn good Defensive coach, but to Shafer, all that is overated. You keep typing stuff like this and my next Diary will be... MY THOUGHTS ON GSIMMONS FOR DC.

gsimmons85

December 16th, 2008 at 12:01 PM ^

shafers thoughts, that is who i copy alot of my defensive stuff from. And like i told everyone long ago, schemes are overrated... how is that different from what i have said along? it has nothing to do with the scheme becasue any scheme can work if executed right... the point is that people have crtized him for not being flexable, making adjustements etc. and what i have tried to illistrate is that he did make a lot of adjustments, and tried a lot of things during the season... that is all

undies22

December 16th, 2008 at 10:30 AM ^

First, great post, and I always enjoy your input. Interesting theory re: why we went so much 3-3-5 v purdue, that it wasn’t the product of discord within the coaching staff but rather (what was perceived at the time as) a low risk experiment. I have read all your posts on Shafer’s defense. I was more excited about the Shafer hire than RR, as I’m of the school that would prefer to see M’s identity be built around defense. Shafer’s resume speaks for itself and if given time, he likely build an aggressive, attacking defense that great athletes will want to play in and which he will make successful. I also loved the fact that RR seemingly handed the reigns to Shaf. I think a common denominator among great defensive teams and consistently great defensive programs is a D coordinator who has a lot of freedom and runs his defense almost as a 1a. head coach (or the HC is a defensive guy who leads the D and allows his OC to handle lots of the O). You don’t want a fractured team, but defense is a different breed and different mentality, and I don’t think its an accident that many great defenses are like a team unto themselves. I also agree that Shaf didn’t have ideal personal for his system, and that defensive systems take time. But let me make the following observations: 1. Most DC’s may use a variation of the nickle against spread teams, as we should have. Where I disagree with Shaf is that given our personal where M’s 5 man DL rotation contained arguably 5 of our top 7 defenders, I don’t think you lift a DL for an extra man in the secondary. You lift a LB and go 4-2-5. This limits your blitz options on third and long and from what you have said, Shaf loves the blitz. But again, you have to face facts about your personal. The only two players who could reg blitz worth a crap were Harrison and Mouton, and Mouton didn’t emerge until 1/3 of the way in. 2. I don’t “blame” our poor third down D on the 3-3-5. Theoretically, any defense which is executed will stop the play. But I think UFR demonstrated that 3 DL in those situations made it too easy for a spread team to execute in 3rd and short, and that we couldn’t generate much pass rush out of it in 3rd and long. Had our LB’s picked the correct gaps more often and maintained leverage, and had our secondary covered better and been more sure tacklers, there would have been more success in stopping 3rd down. That is on the players. But there comes a point where a coach must recognize that while a certain scheme is better against a certain offense, that if the players aren’t executing the scheme, they’re better off playing a scheme not as well suited but which can be executed better. 3. The best way to blitz may be out of a 3 man front, but blitzing is not always the best way to get pressure. Mouton certainly improved as the season went on as a blitzer, and Harrison has long been a great blitzer for a secondary guy. But aside from those guys, there are no two players on M’s team who I would trade blitzing for either a Jamison or Graham with single blocking on the outside. It’s a misconception that rushing three automatically means that both outside DE’s get doubled, usually its only one guy. But I’d have rather forced OL’s pre-snap forced to figure out how the 5 of them would handle the 4 of Jamison-Martin-Taylor-Graham, then have to watch out for one of Mouton/Harrison coming on the blitz. I would guess that most OL’s M faced would tell you there were more comfortable lining up against M’s 3 man front and then dealing with the blitz. All that being said, these criticisms are leveled and the defense as a whole, not Shaf exclusively. As you point out, M ran a ton of different schemes and coverages this season trying to find something. While they spent all this time searching, the fundamentals never improved. There was a lot of pressure on Shaf and the defense to carry a situation they were not equipt to carry. I have a feeling that if you asked him, Shaf would say his biggest regret was not simply sticking to his guns and what he knows, and taking his lumps along the way. I just hope M gives him an opportunity to learn from this year.

gsimmons85

December 16th, 2008 at 12:29 PM ^

and many times this year shafer DIDNT blitz. 4 down line men may be able to get good presure on the qb but with a safety type lined up now as an outside primary contain player, you are very weak against any type of power G scheme which we all know now is being run out of the spread. SO yeah i like the 4-2-5 and it worked well for michigan in several games... but it has its weaknesses too... Also the 4 man front is very easy to block as far as counter and ot schemes... its much easier for an ol to get its blocking assignemnts down presnap for a 4 man front, then it is for a 3 man front, with the threat of 4 blitzers... thats why i use the 3-4 for most of my main run defenses as well... also i know you problaby got most of this from brians ufr's but shafer used VERY LITTLE 3-3 stack stuff besides the purdue game. it was all okie fronts, with maybe still 3 lb's but it was DEF. not the 3-3 stack... also undies, jsut becasue our best players are dlmen, doesnt necc. mean that having more of them on the field is a good thing. our next best player may be a tackle, but that doesnt mean that he is better suited to cover a crossing route. I hate the saying "we are going to put our 11 best on the field" no your not, you are going to put the best 11 you have for the 11 positions on the field. and i pretty sure as good as martin is, he would have sucked as an olb.. now sure their are schematic things you can do if you have more of one type of kid than another. but every play you have to have certain positions accounted for and if your lb's suck, you have to give them less jobs to do, by putting more of them out there... hence the 3-4 a lot...

Meeechigan Dan

December 16th, 2008 at 10:50 AM ^

gsims, always great to hear from you. I trust your breakdown more than the other comments on this thread, although many were well done. Here's my question, asked before, but I want your honest answer: What do you think 2009 holds on the defensive side of the ball? With Graham/Martin/VanBergen on the the line in a 3-4, who the hell plays LB and will the safeties improve? Is Mouton/Ezeh/Evans + RS freshman at LB not a disaster? Warren and Cissoko seem fine, but what about Brown/Williams/Smith at S? Given your analysis, I don't see how we aren't worse in 2009. Help me, gsim.

gsimmons85

December 16th, 2008 at 11:56 AM ^

imo, obvioulsy a lot of that has to do with how much improvement a full year gives these kids. I really saw this year as a mental note season for the defensive staff. Ok now we know what these kids real weaknesses and strengths are, lets see how we can help them. Will our current lb's ever be able to hold a n inside vertical? i think, they can but maybe they cant. It will be interesting to see, and fun to watch...

gsimmons85

December 16th, 2008 at 12:17 PM ^

About defense getting worse as the year progressed. Their is an old saying in defensive football circles. The best way to tell wheather or not you are doing the right things as a defensive coach, is how many long drives are there against you. I thought as the season progressed there were less and less long drives. As a defensive coach i can handle giving up an occasion big play, becasue usually that is becasue of a mental breakdown, that can easily be idnetified. I did that all season long for you guys. Or the offense out executed your defense. I can handle that much better, as can all defensive coaches. Fans may see it different, but its MUCH easier to deal with big play problems, than it is on giving up 5 yards a play. Michigan fundamentaly must imporve to illiminate big plays, and weather or not we have the players that will, remains to be seen. BUt i am confident that we have a man that knows how to eliminate those fundamental mistakes, over the course of several seasons...

Meeechigan Dan

December 16th, 2008 at 12:31 PM ^

Plus, does not improvement in a system happen somewhat exponentially, a la Beilein? In other words, with poor execution and learning happening with all personnel early on, problems fed into each other. Offensive failings led to more time on the field for a learning defense, turnovers led to short fields, poor kick returns handicapped the offense, communication issues, etc. Is it safe to assume that as each unit learns RRod's system, all benefit? In other words, the greatest assist to the defense in 2009 will probably be a more proficient offense.

Magnus

December 16th, 2008 at 9:45 PM ^

Wow...I hope this was some sort of miscommunication, jmblue. If not, it looks like you were being pretty rude. Anyway, gsimms, I understand your opinion. I personally didn't see the players executing the schemes you've been explaining. Something got lost in translation between the scheme and the execution. Whether that's Shafer's fault or the assistant coaches' faults or the players' faults, I don't know. But the results weren't pretty, so I guess I don't have too much of a problem with the resignation, as long as Rodriguez has someone in mind who's qualified.

Blue Balls

December 16th, 2008 at 7:16 PM ^

agree with your last paragraph. I've been reading that Coach Rod looks at the players attitude and this is a big factor in his recruiting. Michigan's defensive players at times had no desire to tackle forget about technique-the secondary at times made me want to vomit. While technique and position can be coached, the desire to hit can't. I'd take a 4 star player with desire over any 5 star player with an attitude. In college baseball recruiting you rank on speed and get 1-4 points, same for power(hitting), throwing ability, lateral movement and attitude. I remember Sam Mele scouting Barry Larkin for the Boston Red Sox and He was going to mark Him lower for attitude because He walked on His toes(Sam thought that was attitude) I convinced Him it that it wasn't. The point is that attitude and desire come from within a player not the coach.