Coaching Candidate: Todd Graham ~ Similar HC Resume as Sumlin but Not as Cuddly

Submitted by alum96 on

Preface

I've been looking at quite a few candidates for 2015 HC the past few weeks as it had become increasingly clear the Hoke is not the answer; something I think the masses have finally agreed upon after Saturday.   I will post a few profiles this week in diaries on what I have found on candidates outside the normal cabal regurgitated over and over.   Some candidates I have done a ton of work on - some I have done less on.  All are current head coaches as I don't believe we can take a chance on someone who does not have HC experience at the NCAA level unless their name is John Harbaugh.

Normal caveats apply:

  • I am not an AD nor do I have a full time staff to focus on one of of the most important decisions over the next decade.   These are superficial reports based on raw data.  If  I were an AD I'd be doing a lot of on the ground work on each of these people's backgrounds starting from their playing days on forward  to every coaching stop. 
  • Past results do not guarantee a damn thing.  But that is all we can go on.
  • These are not necessarily my top candidates (read: Jim Harbaugh) but people we could get and are interesting and not "Sumlin, Shaw, Gundy redux"
  • I believe an elite level coach gets results within 2-3 years, by results I don't mean 11-2 but improving a bad program or maintaining a good program
  • W/L record is not the be all and end all - what Gary Barnett did for Northwestern is more impressive than what a lot of coaches have done at USC or Bama or Texas over the years.  Spurrier went and won at Duke for example early in his career.  Or just see John Beilein.
  • Adjust everything for conference, level of competition, and ability to get recruits
  • I don't care about systems - a good coach will coach up players.  It's about the Jimmy and Joes not the X's and O's.

 

Next candidate.... Todd Graham, age: 49

Summary:  Let me begin this piece by saying I have done more homework on Todd Graham than any other candidate.  It is just one man's opinion but I think Graham is the most "sure thing" candidate of the group of guys that are realistically available to UM.  By that I don't mean sure thing to the upside - i.e. he will get us to a playoff game in 2 years, but I mean to the downside - he will return us at minimum to the Lloyd Carr era.  With potential upside from there.  He can turn around a down in the dumps program, and he can sustain winning.  He has multiple 10 win seasons in his HC career. Very few other candidates have shown the ability to do both on their HC resume.

Graham is seen as an offensive coach due to some crazy offensive numbers but the reality is he came up as a defensive coach.  What he has been excellent at (which is a major plus for me) is finding top notch offensive minds to be his offensive coordinator.   Identifying high level coordinator talent is a MAJOR help to a successful HC.  Todd Graham brought in Guz Malzahn AND Chad Morris at Tulsa as OCs.  One is the head coach of Auburn, the other is the OC at Clemson - both lauded for forward offensive thinking.  His current man is Mike Norvell which is likewise putting up video game like numbers out at Arizona State. 

There are some UM fans who dislike Graham due to his departures from earlier coaching stops.  I get that and while not a "great thing" this negative is far less damning than alleged violations at Oklahoma State that Les Miles had.  The same Les Miles almost everyone at UM wants if a Harbaugh is not available.  He did not handle his departure from Pittsburgh well, so that's a negative.  Also how he left Rice after 1 year was not ideal.  Does he job hop? To a degree - so did Urban Meyer (2 years at Bowling Green, 2 years at Utah).  Saban left Toledo after 1 year to go to the NFL.  Young driven NCAA coaches leave jobs quickly for the next step up - I don't understand why Graham is penalized for this other than how he let his players know about it.   Further he has been at one place (Tulsa) for 6 of the last 11 years

I will also show in this piece that on paper Todd Graham has just as impressive of a HC resume as everyone's hottest candidate in the country - Kevin Sumlin.  Kevin Sumlin is nearly impossible to get and might be the Dallas Cowboys coach at this time next year.  Meanwhile a very reasonable facsimile to Kevin Sumlin is sitting at Arizona State at a reasonable price ($2.4M) and has shown a propensity to move when a better program calls.  As my caveats say you need to do a whole different level of background check on every candidate but on paper he seems like he should be a finalist for the 2015 job. 

 

Recent (10 years) coaching background

  • 2003-2005:  DC at Tulsa
  • 2006: HC at Rice
  • 2007-2010:  HC at Tulsa
  • 2011:  HC at Pitt
  • 2012-2014:  HC at Arizona State

Analysis:  This is the one negative against Graham, he had 2 one year stints.  The Rice one makes a lot of sense.  He had honed his coaching skills at Tulsa, left the school to get his first HC job and then the HC job  opened at Tulsa.  So he went back there after being gone a year.  I don't penalize someone for doing that.   He had a ton of success at Tulsa in 3 of his 4 years and accepted a job at Pittsburgh.  Up to that point everything was fine in his career path.  He had spent 6 of the previous 7 years at 1 spot - Tulsa.  For whatever reason (there are a lot of published reasons but we'll never know the truth) he decided Pitt was not for him and ASU came calling and he left.  He didnt get to address his players and let them know via text message.  That didn't sit well.  I agree with that - not cool. 

Should he not be the UM coach because he left Pitt after 1 year?  That would be a stupid reason. 

Next question - "if he job hops so much why would he stay at UM?"  Well frankly there are not many more places to go.  Once you get to UM level the only jobs you really are leaving UM for are places like Alabama or Texas.  And if he is doing good enough for us to leave for Alabama in 5 years - well that probably means 1-2 playoff appearances and multiple Big 10 championships.  I'll live with it.  Could he go to the NFL?  Sure - but he has zero NFL background.  He was a successful H.S. coach before his stops at West Virginia (pre Tulsa) and Tulsa.  The only guy of recent note to jump to the NFL with no contacts / playing history / position coach experience is Chip Kelly.  And I'd take a 4-5 year run of Chip Kelly success if that meant losing him to the NFL.

Is he a "mercenary"? I don't see it that way - ASU is a better job than Pitt IMO.  He stayed at Tulsa for 6 of 7 years - far longer than many "hot coaches" stay anywhere nowadays.  These are my views - I am sure others disagree.  Personally I don't care if he is a mercenary - he has never been accussed of anything worse than job hopping.

 

Results

Caveat for results ----> (a) nothing exists in a vacuum (b) as a coordinator you can benefit or be penalized if your HC is good or bad or average (c) injuries or graduation can change your results dramatically in any 1 year.  This is the type of stuff you'd research as an AD staff on every potential candidate.

Usually I break down each coach's results in a vacuum but I am going to do something different for Graham.  Both he and Sumlin coached in the Conference USA West division, overlapping 3 of the 4 years they were there - Graham at Tulsa, Sumlin at Houston.  Both took over 8-5 programs.  I am going to show you how their 4 year stints compared side by side - W/L, total offense, total defense.  Please keep in mind Texas A&M hired Sumlin DIRECTLY after his stint at Houston.  With Graham not only do you have his Tulsa resume but now we have 3 more years of data points with his background at ASU.  So you have even more of a resume than Sumlin had when A&M hired him if UM goes after Graham.

Please compare these 2 charts for the 2 coaches.  Please note the first row in italics of each chart is what the coach prior to Graham/Sumlin did.

Coach 1:  36-17 W/L.  Three 10+ win seasons and 1 down year.  Total offense ranked as Top 5 in the country 3 of the 4 years he was there.  Defense was not good 2 of the 4 years, but in this type of conference anything in the 60s-70s is considered "decent".

    Tot Off Tot Def
2006 8-5 24 21
2007 10-4 1 108
2008 11-3 1 74
2009 5-7 35 85
2010 10-3 5 111

 

Coach 2:  36-17 W/L.  Two 10+ win seasons and 1 down year.  Total offense ranked as Top 5 in the country 3 of the 4 years he was there. Defense was not good for 3 of the 4 years, but in this type of conference anything in the 60s-70s is considered "decent".

    Tot Off Tot Def
2007 8-5 4 46
2008 8-5 2 100
2009 10-4 1 111
2010 5-7 11 103
2011 13-1 1 62

 

Can you tell which is which?  Does it matter?  They are nearly identical resumes for those 4 years in the Conference USA West division.  I guess one is a lot more cuddly and cool.

For those who do care Coach 1 was Graham and Coach 2 was Sumlin.

Now let's look closer at Graham's career

(1) HC at Rice

After being the DC at Tulsa for 3 years, Graham left to go take over a horrid 1-10 Rice team.  He only stayed 1 year because the HC job opened up at Tulsa.  But he turned around the program in 1 year by 6 games.   They went 7-5 and went to a bowl (where they lost)  This was the FIRST BOWL for Rice since 1960.  The offense improved quite dramatically while the defense was the same.

      Tot Off Tot Def
Rice 2005 1-10 84 110
  2006 7-6 58 112

Now he did leave Rice in "not great circumstances" either - he had signed a contract extension with Rice after 2006 and then bolted for Tulsa.  Is that "great"?  No.  In fact I think this is less cool than what he did at Pittsburgh due to the timing of it all.  But again he went back to the school he had been with for the prior 3 years.  Some may take great exception to this - understandable.  But it is what it is.

 

(2) HC at Tulsa

As the chart above showed - he, like Sumlin, took over a solid 8-5 program.  Tulsa was not a tire fire like Rice was.  In these type of non Big 5 conferences you dont get great defensive talent, it is very difficult to build great defenses.  But via innovation and scheme you CAN build great offenses - as both Houston and Tulsa did in that era.  Sumlin took over for Art Briles at Houston and somehow got tagged as an offensive genius.  Graham meanwhile is seen as "just a guy at Tulsa".  Yet somehow "just a guy" identified both Gu Malzahn and Chad Morris to be OC or co-OCs in is tenure.  By the way Graham beat Art Briles Houston 56-7 in his first year at Tulsa.  But I digress. 

I am not going to break out all 4 years of Tulsa since this post is already very long but you can see as a whole Graham had lights out offenses, 2 years of "ok" defense and 2 years of "quite bad" defense.  Which in Conference USA is enough to get you double digit wins.

Key games for Tulsa during Graham's 4 yr stint:

  • Year 1:  beat eventual #14 11-2 BYU  55-47
  • Year 1:  beat Art Briles 8-5 Houston  56-7
  • Year 1:  beat 8-5 Bowling Green in a bowl 63-7
  • Year 1 losses were to eventual #8 Oklahoma, 10-4 conference champion UCF (twice), and a loss to a bad UTEP team
  • Year 2:  no lights out wins but losses were to Arkansas, Sumlin's Houston and 9-5 East Carolina
  • Year 2 fun stat: Scored 35+ in all 11 wins.  Scored over 45 pts in 9 of the 11 wins.
  • Year 3 was a struggle - maybe a QB graduation, who knows but still only lost to Sumlin's 10-4 Houstin 46-45.  Lost to eventual #4 undefeated Boise State 28-21.
  • Year 4:  beat Brian Kelly's 8-5 ND in South Bend 28-27
  • Year 4:  beat Kevin Sumlin's down year Houston 28-25
  • Year 4:  beat 10-4 Hawaii in a bowl 62-35
  • Year 4:  Lost 51-49 to East Carolina, lost 65-28 to eventual #13 Oklahoma State, lost 21-18 to June Jones 7-7 SMU.  So 5 pts away from a 13-1 season.

(3) HC at Pitt

So at this point, 4 years at Tulsa, you have done all you can do and had a ream of success.  It was at this point in his HC career that A&M came calling for Sumlin.  Pitt came calling for Graham.  So it's a logical time to move on.

Things at Pitt never worked out - there was no big turnaround at Pitt in 2011.  The losses were by and large not horrid - 4 pts to Iowa, 3 pts to Notre Dame, 1 pt to West Virginia, 3 pts to Butch Jones's Cincinnati.   So if 2 or 3 of those game swing another way the W/L wouldve been fine.  The offense and defense stats both fell back from the prior regime.  All in all a meh season; 1st years can be like that.

  2010 8-5 72 8
Pitt 2011 6-7 88 35

Won't rehash how he left.  It was not a great thing and he was scorned nationally.  Off to ASU he went.

(4) HC at ASU

ASU had been lingering in malaise after a half decade under Dennis Erickson.  Erickson did well in year 1, then turned very mediocre the following 4 years: 5-7, 4-8, 6-6 type of stuff.  Here are the metrics of Graham's first 2 seasons versus Erickson's last.  Unlike Pitt this turned out pretty darn well - and fast.  Retained good offense stats with a big improvement in defensive stats.  And of course the record improved.

      Tot Off Tot Def
  2011 6-7 25 91
ASU 2012 8-5 25 27
  2013 10-4 32 42

 

Quick overview of both years:

2012 - the wins were against teams that made sense - average to bad teams.  Beat a couple of 8-5 teams like Rich Rod's Arizona, and Navy.  There were 5 losses but again first year transition and the teams he lost to by and large to "made sense".  He lost 24-20 to a meh Missouri (@Missouri) in game 3 of his regime.  Lost to eventual #2 Oregon, eventual #19 Oregon State, Jim Mora's 9-5 UCLA, Lane Kiffin's 7-5 USC.   This was a very "Rich Rod" 2010 type of record IMO but with a way better defense.

2013 - the 4 losses were again legit.  Lost to eventual #11 Stanford (the team MSU beat in the Rose) twice, lost to eventual #20 ND on neutral site by 3 pts, and lost to an ok Texas Tech team in a bowl.    Wins came versus ranked teams such as #20 Wisconsin, #19 USC (the loss that cost Kiffin his job), #25 Washinton (Sark), #16 UCLA.  That is 4 wins versus teams that were ranked in the top 25 by the end of the year - not bad.  Crushed Rich Rod's Arizona along with the average to bad Pac 12 teams - Utah, Washington State, Oregon State, etc

2014 - a word about this year before we move on.  This is where the homework has to be done.  I think 2014 will be a tough year for ASU.  They lost 9 of their 11 starters from the 2013 defense to graduation.  Versus UCLA last week they STARTED 3 true freshmen.  They dont recruit Jabrill Peppers players, or even Bryan Mone.  It would be like throwing our three of our 3/4 star type players and installing them in our starting defense.  Nevermind the 2 deep - so imagine Ferns, Lawrence Marshall and Brandon Watson starting - along with 6 other new starters.  That is the ASU defense this year - they are doomed. 

ASU will need to outgun teams to win any games this year versus quality opponents.  Graham developed a 2 star QB (whose only other offer was Nevada) named Taylor Kelly into one of the Pac 12s best QBs.  But then he got hurt.  Graham put in his backup, and they still got OVER 600 yards of total offense vs UCLA.  Imagine that.  Unfortunately they also had 4 turnovers and gave up a 80 yard kickoff return for a TD.  So it was a junky game and I think this year will be a struggle for ASU, especially on defense. 

Sidenote

One last comparison versus Sumlin.  Sumlin now has A&M talent. He inherited Manziel who was a solid recruit with offers from places like Oregon.  Graham inherited a 2 star nobody.  A&M's average class ranking from 2008-2012 was 19, Arizona State's is 37.  Which is below where Wisconsin normally recruits to put it in Big 10 perspective.  So Graham taking that talent and competing with Oregon, Stanford, USC, and UCLA is pretty darn good.  Here is how Sumlin has done in his first 2 years at A&M versus the prior coach - again with Johnny Manziel as his QB.

      Tot Off Tot Def
A&M 2011 7-6 7 59
  2012 11-2 3 57
  2013 9-4 4 109

The offense is off the charts under Sumlin but it WAS offf the charts in 2011 as well before he got there.  And the defense did not improve ...it stayed flat in 2012 and then fell off a clifff in 2013.

This comparison is not here to say Sumlin sucks.  It is to compare and contrast the metrics versus Graham.  Graham compares favorably at both peer groups (Tulsa v Houston) and (ASU v A&M).  It is more difficult to compare ASU and A&M obviously since A&M is in a tougher division and has better recruits.  But adjusting for these factors I see 2 very good coaches - one nationally lauded as one of the hottest coaches in America, the other doing a good job at ASU but not getting nearly the credit.

 

Overall

I really like what Todd Graham does from a football perspective.  He just wins. And it doesnt take him 4 years to do it.  He doesnt have any sanctions or dirty laundry behind him - his fault is he does leave jobs in a bad manner.  But I dont see many other stops for him left to go after UM (if hired) other than the NFL, which again he has zero background in.  His recruiting footprint is an issue but he has deep Texas ties (fertile ground) and as I've said for other candidates who are not from the Midwest, you hire 1 coordinator and 2-3 position coaches who know the HS coaches of Ohio, Illinois, Michigan.  He does have some tiny exposure to the Midwest with his Pitt stop.  And how has some West coast exposure - obviously CA is another hotbed.

To me you can get a Brian Kelly/Kevin Sumlin type coach at a reasonable cost - Graham makes $2.4M. For Graham $4M would be a huge jump and he'd have access to the type of recruits he has never had.  ASU recruiting ranking is near 40, while UM's has been around 14 for the past 5-6 years.  I also think with the issues ASU is going to have on defense this year he won't be a "hot commodity" by the end of this year for those who only look at superficial records - ASU might be a 7-5 team this year for specific reasons related to defense.  But you can see when he is not breaking in 9 new starters, including 3 true freshmen on defense he had solid defenses at ASU.  I believe I read he sent 4 players to the NFL off the defense last year.  Anyone doing a serious coaching search should be able to identify those reasons and look at the bigger picture. 

In terms of availability, price, track record and "putting a floor under UM football" (i.e. I don't think we'd do worse than 8-4 seasons with this coach), Graham shold be one of the leading candidates.

Comments

alum96

September 29th, 2014 at 2:05 PM ^

Foresight brother.  I've been doing the research since the Notre Dame game.  I pretty much had given up on Hoke after PSU last year, but was willing to give him this year to see if I was wrong.  Unfortunately not - in fact its much worse than even I thought.

I had all the research done the past 3 weeks - just takes time to type them up.

FreddieMercuryHayes

September 29th, 2014 at 2:13 PM ^

You bring up a lot of good points about his qualifications.  My only concern is that he is just an unlikeable a-hole.  And I'm worried he would not be a lifer at UM.  I really really want UM to find that guy who is really good and will be at UM for 10-15 years.

alum96

September 29th, 2014 at 2:17 PM ^

Welll I addressed that.  There are very few places to go after UM - Alabama Texas and maybe USC.  If he has done so good for us that he is considered for one of those jobs, bless his little Texas heart ...I'll trade 3 Big 10 championships for losing a coach in 6 years.  And he has zero NFL background or pedigree.  He looks like a college coach forever to me. 

UMaD

September 29th, 2014 at 9:22 PM ^

"Once you get to UM level the only jobs you really are leaving UM for are places like Alabama or Texas."

Man, I wish that was true but I don't think it is. There's really no reason anymore for Michigan to be held above so many other programs.  We have tradition and a top 10 salary and a large stadium and big fanbase.  Other programs can offer a top 20 salary, large stadiums, loyal fanbases, stability, security, weather, etc.

There's really no reason that he would leave ASU to be coach at Michigan.  What does he gain at Michigan that he doesn't have at ASU? Maybe a salary bump, maybe more media attention (though I wonder what coach really wants that.) 

There are a few things, but most of them are offset by having good weather, a fertile recruiting area next door, and a fanbase that can appreciate a 9 win season and a bowl invitation, media that isn't out to get him, no pressures to conform to a culture he doesn't care about, no rigorous acadmic/character expectations. I could go on but... we fired the last coach for not fitting in, despite improving every season.  We're about to fire another coach for letting a guy play with a concussion (something that shouldn't happen but does ALL THE TIME).  Our AD is a total douchebag, the media and ex-players and fans all can't wait to get in line to complain about this or that, the weather sucks, the recruiting is strong but takes a lot of work to manage because none of it is local, and the conference has huge perception problems.

If Graham did leave ASU for Michigan and had success he would be gone to the NFL or whatever SEC school decides to pay him even more money.

Still - I appreciate your effort.  It's a good discussion to have because it's getting to be "look to the future" time...

alum96

September 30th, 2014 at 2:18 PM ^

I agree with you directionally but think you are taking it too far.  Michigan fans think they can just walk into Texas A&M, say "we're Michigan" and drop $6M and get a coach.  It's not reality. Texas tried this to Alabama last year.  Other than that, 1 "top program" taking aaway a coach from another "top program" is extremely rare.   A&M is now a top 10 program, in the best conference, with great support, where football is a religion, in a recruiting hotbed.  Etc.  There are about 12-13 other jobs similar.  It would be nearly impossible to get a coach from one of those 12-13.  But ASU is not one of those jobs.  And at his salary he can nearly double it at UM and be paid at Hoke's level.  (that's more an indictment of David Brandon way overpaying for a mediocre coach)

UM is still a prestigious program and whoever turns it around will be made a hero and get massive attention nationally.   A guy like Graham has that sort of ego.  It is also going to be easier to win in the Big 10 then the Pac 12 which IMO is probably the 2nd best conference right now.  If USC gets back to form you have Stanford, USC, and Oregon at the top and ASU and UCLA fighting for 4th. 

And I don't buy the better recruiting argument one bit - ASU's classes are in the mid 30s to 40ish most years.  UM has top 15 classes every year.  He can recruit way better here.  You just need a coach who can identify players for a system and then coach them up.

UMaD

October 1st, 2014 at 12:39 PM ^

I think you are applying the same logic that you criticized. Michigan can PROBABLY beat ASU in money (we don't actually know if they are willing too after they also have to pay Brandon and Hoke to not work there anymore).  But even if they can, it's not by a lot and Graham will have other reasons (which I mentioned) to stay at ASU beyond the money.

Michigan's prestige is overstated by it's fans.

You are making the assumption that it will be turned around.  I'm not sure a school like ASU isn't in a better position to win a national title than Michigan.  With USC down and Oregon showing signs of slipping without Kelly, the Pac12 is at a point where another power could emerge.

It's easier to win in the MAC - doesn't mean you leave your Pac12 or SEC job for the MAC.

Obviously Michigan DOES have a recruiting advantage, but it's one you have to work very very hard to maintain.  Travel all over the country, deal with extra academic and personal scrutiney, etc.

I agree Michigan is still a prestigious job.  It's the 2nd or 3rd best job in the Big10 (after PSU and OSU), but it has a lot of negatives that other programs do not. It is in a struggling conference, in a struggling region, and facing enormous turmoil, with no letdown in massive expectations and scrutiny.  Demographics, economy, media, fan support, academic support -- all against you.  The guys you get are either going to be local, a bit clueless (e.g. Rich Rod), or have a tie to Michigan in the 80s and 90s (e.g., Harbaugh). 

 

Michigan4Life

September 29th, 2014 at 2:46 PM ^

Said that he is a major douche bag and will treat Michigan as a stepping stone because his ultimate goal is to be a NFL coach (preferably the Dallas Cowboys).  Plus, he has major off-field issue that it makes Les Miles look like a saint in comparision. DO NOT WANT.

How do I know about it? Todd Graham told everybody before he left the school for a job. He said something like this: "I'll go west for a Pac-12 school and then coach for the Dallas Cowboys. You just wait. I'll be a big timer!"

alum96

September 29th, 2014 at 3:13 PM ^

Very possible - he has no NFL background, never was an assistant so his only route is to have Chip Kelly success at UM.  I'd trade 4-5 years of Chip Kelly or Jim Harbaugh success for losing a coach to the NFL.  And Jim was a NFL QB who had a lot of contacts in the league so the only true comparison for a guy with zilch NFL contacts, zilch NFL experience as a position coach or coordinator who went to the NFL is Chip.  Maybe there are a few others but it is not common.

Guys like Bill O'Brian or Pete Carroll were already in the NFL in their coaching tree before they went to the NCAA.  

rainingmaize

September 29th, 2014 at 3:36 PM ^

He might be a d-bag who dreams of coaching in the NFL, but honestly I'd take that right now. If he's good enough for the NFL, that can only be good for Michigan. Plus with his track record of producing outstanding assistants, 2 years might be enough to produce a soild coaching tree or a coach in waiting. Plus, if I were to start a category called coaches who are preceived to be d-bags who dream of bolting college for the NFL, you would have a pretty substantial list including Jim Harbaugh

MGoBlue100

September 29th, 2014 at 2:53 PM ^

It makes the bile rise in my throat just thinking about this.  Majorly stating the obvious here, but whomever gets the job, it has to be not just a home run, but a walk off grand slam.  Can't botch this again.

Hannibal.

September 29th, 2014 at 2:53 PM ^

Graham to me is a Plan C guy.  I don't mind the changing of jobs since they have all been promotions, but I haven't seen what I would consider to be unqualified success out of him yet.  Plus, the system change is a slight shortcoming.  I am not terrified of it, but it is at least a tiebreaker.

alum96

September 29th, 2014 at 3:17 PM ^

"but I haven't seen what I would consider to be unqualified success out of him yet. "

Would you have hired Sumlin 3 years ago? Yes or no.

Would you hire Sumlin today?  Yes or no.

If yes to either answer please tell me about the "unqualified success" of Sumlin relative to Graham. 1 extra win on average a year at A&M with a way better recruiting base vs ASU?  With a Heisman trophy QB?

Then tell me some coach in this country other than Harbaugh or Saban or Miles who is an "unqualified success".... who we can go grab.

Saban had 4 mediocre .500ish +/- a game seasons at MSU before a 9-2 year in his 5th before he left for LSU  Dantonio was 18-17 at Cincy.  I am pretty sure not 1 soul on this board would have hired either.   Both Sumlin and Graham have done better than either of those 2 guys at that point in their careers. (pre LSU and pre MSU respectively) 

I have no isse with people pissing on Graham for off the field but in terms of on the field success once you take out Bill Snyder, Saban, Shaw, Spurrier, Gundy, Stoops etc the next tier include both Graham and Sumlin.  Some of you guys are looking for a unicorn.  There was a unicorn about 8 years ago named Urban who rolled thru the MAC for 2 years and rolled thru the Mountain West for 2 years.  Then went to UF. That's the only unicorn I've seen in a decade.

Hannibal.

September 29th, 2014 at 3:39 PM ^

Would I have hired Sumlin three years ago?  Maybe as a plan B guy. 

Graham wouldn't be a bad hire but he wouldn't be on my short list.  I'd rather see us open up the checkbook and pay a fuckton of money for a near-sure thing.  We need a home run hire.  Badly.  Before offering Todd Graham, I would want to offer one of the many other coaches that have been mentioned here $7 Mil per year to get them out of their comfort zone. 

I hope to evaluate guys based on their ability and then use money to help with the "availability/willingness" part. 

alum96

September 29th, 2014 at 4:18 PM ^

If Coach 2 was someone you'd hire as a plan B three years ago, then Coach 1 should have been a plan B three years ago as well.

Coach 1:  36-17 W/L.  Three 10+ win seasons and 1 down year.  Total offense ranked as Top 5 in the country 3 of the 4 years he was there.  Defense was not good 2 of the 4 years, but in this type of conference anything in the 60s-70s is considered "decent".

    Tot Off Tot Def
2006 8-5 24 21
2007 10-4 1 108
2008 11-3 1 74
2009 5-7 35 85
2010 10-3 5 111

 

Coach 2:  36-17 W/L.  Two 10+ win seasons and 1 down year.  Total offense ranked as Top 5 in the country 3 of the 4 years he was there. Defense was not good for 3 of the 4 years, but in this type of conference anything in the 60s-70s is considered "decent".

    Tot Off Tot Def
2007 8-5 4 46
2008 8-5 2 100
2009 10-4 1 111
2010 5-7 11 103
2011 13-1 1 62

 

 

ChuckWood

September 29th, 2014 at 4:08 PM ^

Todd Graham just donated $500,000 to ASU and is the perfect guy for that job.  And after meeting him a few times, he is a great guy.  

Would he be good for Michigan?  I think so.  However, I think Michigan needs a higher caliber coach.  Turnarounds at places like Rice don't always translate.  

ca_prophet

September 29th, 2014 at 6:20 PM ^

in coaches in three areas:

1.  Ability to run a clean program.

2.  Ability to choose and work effectively with top-notch assistants.

3.  Ability to attract and retain top-notch players.

Put another way, if his biggest flaw in this area is "I'll ditch you when a better opportunity opens up", I can tolerate that.  I can't tolerate "likely to incur recruiting sanctions", "mistreats players" (whether via the purplefaced screaming or failure to observe medical protocols or oversigning) or "drives off his coordinators".

 

Eye of the Tiger

September 29th, 2014 at 8:06 PM ^

...transition costs. Whether or not he's an offensive coach, the offenses he's run at most stops would be better suited to the kinds of guys we had a few years ago than the ones we have now.

Now I'm really not a zealot one way or the other on offense--all kinds of approaches can work. I love RR's, Chip Kelly's and Mike Leach's offenses, but I've also appreciated Wisconsin's over the past decade, as well as Harbaugh's at Stanford (and, in the NFL, am most attracted to the double TE offense Josh McDaniels ran for the Patriots  in 2011, Aaron Hernandez aside). For me spread-to-run, air raid and an inside-zone based pro-style offense are all means to an end, and all capable of achieving that end if done right.

But I don't want to go through another messy transition. I'd like our next coach to be someone who can take what we've got on offense and coach it up to where it should be (something the current staff appear incapable of), while retaining the progress we've made on defense since the historically bad defensive performance in 2010. That's one of the reasons the Harbaughs are so attractive.  Maybe Graham could too...I'm just not quite convinced yet.

And the fact is there aren't that many candidates left who appear well positioned to do that effectively. But I'd be curious to see you tackle a couple other potential candidates: Paul Chryst and Jim McElwain.

alum96

September 29th, 2014 at 9:22 PM ^

I am asking this question in a non snarky way.  Outside of Jake Butt who would work in any system, what offense do we have in 2015?  Assuming Funchess goes early. 

What system do our OL play well in?  They dont play well in this system. 

What system do our RBs thrive in?  They dont thrive in this system.  

What QB do we have in 2015?  What does he do well?

That leaves WRs who should be able to catch the ball in any system.

Graham's "spread" is not run based like Rich Rod.  His QB throws a lot.  In theory we have a bunch of QBs down the pike and on the roster who are pass based. 

I am not a system nazi and I understand your concern but it would be one thing if this offense did something (anything) well.  It doesn't.  For all the RR hate - and a lot deserved - that offense at least rang up points against mediocre to bad defenses.  So I'd understand the transition issues there.  This offense doesnt even get to the red zone. So i can't say we recruited to any system - we just seemed to recruit to a Rivals 250 board.

Eye of the Tiger

September 30th, 2014 at 12:44 PM ^

...it's about how long it takes to get where the coach wants to go. I think, in hindsight, Al Borges did a pretty good job with RR's roster, running an offense that retained many features of RR's. We scored 33.3 pts/game in 2011 (up from 32.0 pts./game in 2010).

(Ironically, as bad as things got by the end of 2013, we still scored 32.2 pts/game--higher than in 2010, though few would claim the offense was more effective than in 2010.)

I'd like to see the next coach be someone who can take the decent raw material we have and turn it into something better. I don't want someone who is going to implement a vastly different system that will come with large-scale transition costs.

If Todd Graham's passing-based offense can be implemented in such a way as to avoid large-scale tranition costs, then I'm on board with him as a candidate.

 

alum96

September 30th, 2014 at 2:23 PM ^

It was a weird game, both teams have 600+ yards of offense.  Which I find amazing to do with a backup QB.  But ASU had 2 fumbles and 2 INTs.  UCLA scored on a pick 6, a 80 yard kickoff return, and had (from memory) a 1 play 80 yard pass drive, and I think 2-3 other drives that were 3 plays or less.  That is debilitating especially for a young team.  ASU's defense is crazy young not just in age but in playing time.  They are going to need to win every game 45-40 this year which if they dont turn the ball over they probably can outside of say an Oregon or Stanford.  Again I think judging him on this year's defense is not fair - if we were starting Brandon Watson, Michael Ferns, and Lawrence Marshall along with SIX other new starters we'd be fearful of giving up 70 every game.

awould

October 1st, 2014 at 3:13 PM ^

I grew up a UM fan and always will be. I went to ASU during the Jake Plummer years and am a big Sun Devil fan too. I keep reading about these off-the-field problems of Graham. I don't know where that's coming from. I've not heard one negative thing about him in Phoenix. He runs a clean and disciplined program and has brought a lot of stability to a program that Dennis Erickson treated like a furlough program from the county jail. His job hopping? So what? Would you fault a guy for moving from the mail room to a cubicle and then to an office? His leaving Pitt wasn't handled well but if you read the full story, there were at least some mitigating circumstances. Bottom line, it's overblown and unimportant.

My guess is, Graham wouldn't take the job at UM because he's a great fit for the Pac12 and ASU. I don't think he wants the problems..... He's known RichRod for a lont time, is sort of cut from the same cloth I think and saw how he was treated at UM. FWIW, he and RichRod aren't friendly with each other. I like Graham a lot better than RichRod.

I also think Graham enjoys beating RichRod in a rivalry game, which I expect him to continue doing more often than not for a long time. ASU has been called the sleeping giant of the Pac12 for years now, and I think Graham wants to stick around to make that happen. He's working his tail off to raise money from boosters to renovate the stadium and upgrade the facilities too.

The defensive woes are real... but they're a very young D and frankly, the UCLA game was a tire-fire of bad luck and poor timing. UCLA capitalized to the max on every mistake ASU made. It wasn't pretty, but it wasn't indicative of the caliber of team they have. My biggest gripe with Graham is this: he uses his time-outs willy-nilly and his clock management isn't great.

I think the write-up by alum96 was very fair and accurate. I'd take Graham at UM in a heartbeat, but I'd miss him at ASU.

alum96

October 1st, 2014 at 7:52 PM ^

Thanks for the local viewpoint.  Short of Jim Harbaugh or getting Bill Snyder from 10 years ago I'd take Todd Graham in an instant.  I think he is just as good as Sumlin, he is getting almost the same results without the level of talent at ASU and his work with Taylor Kelly is fantasitc.  Even the backup QB last week went off.  The defense will suck this year for reasons everyone can explain - he had solid defenses his first 2 years.  

He is the right age, he has the right attitude, he is "cheap" by college football standards so $4M at UM would be a huge bump, and he just wins.  I do think his stock will also be down at the end of this year due to that defense and its effects on the overall ASU record.  I would want him to bring Norvell with him however - I'd be worried Norvell would stay at ASU to take over the HC job.

Unfortunately Graham seems to have a scarlet letter over his head by many in the fanbase for what he did at Pittsburgh. 

gobluenyc

October 4th, 2014 at 2:35 PM ^

He seems like the kind of coach that can work with whatever group of kids he has. I am worried about the potential douchebaggery but otherwise, he seems like a good option.

On the other hand, I do recall another hot coach from ASU who went to the BigTen a few years back. Did okay, but had a hard time beating his school's biggest rival.

Keel

October 4th, 2014 at 3:41 PM ^

I lived just outside of Phoenix for the past 4 years, and in that time frame became an ASU fan. I love Todd Graham's approach.  I have been to about 10 ASU games the past couple years, and love how involved he is.  Well spoken at his pressers, and just a great all around guy.  I had the chance to meet him as well at an ASU basketball game.  He took a program that was getting down on itself, and turned them into year-in/out competitors.  The atmosphere around Tempe about their football program is the best I've ever seen it.  I think Graham is a great coach, and I would be thrilled if UM offered, but as it has been said on here before I think he is well invested in ASU and winning a championship there, he is close.  Didn't Texas try to pry him from ASU last year?  Very good post Alum96.