Home
supporting the Clint Eastwood State Fightin' John Waynes since 2011

Primary links

  • About
    • $upport (lol)
    • Ethics
    • FAQ
    • Privacy Policy
  • Contact
  • MGoStore
  • MGoBoard
    • MGoBoard FAQ
    • Ticket spreadsheet
    • Michigan bar locator
    • Moderator Action Sticky
  • Useful Stuff
    • Depth Chart By Class
    • Unofficial Two Deep
    • 2013 Offer Board
    • Crude Bug Tracking System
    • Third Down Stats
    • Diaries, Windows Live Writer, And You
    • Michigan Future Schedules
    • User-Curated HOF
    • Where To Eat In Ann Arbor
Home Diaries Seth's blog

Navigation

  • Forums
  • Recent posts

User login

  • Create new account
  • Request new password

MGoElsewhere

  • @MGoBlog (Brian)
  • @aceanbender
  • @TomVH (Tom)
  • RSS Feed
  • iPhone App
  • Facebook profile
  • MGoKindle Store
  • mgo.licio.us
  • Brian @ TSB [Archive]
  • Brian @ AOL [Archive]
  • Sour Salty Bitter Sweet

Michigan Blogs

  • Big House Blog
  • Brice's Recruiting
  • Burgeoning Wolverine Star
  • Genuinely Sarcastic
  • Go Blue Michigan Wolverine
  • Holdin' The Rope
  • MGoFootball
  • MVictors
  • Maize 'n' Blue Nation
  • Maize 'n' Brew
  • Maize And Go Blue
  • Michigan Football Recruiting
  • Michigan Hockey Net
  • The Blog That Yost Built
  • The Hoover Street Rag
  • The M Zone
  • The Wolverine Blog
  • Touch The Banner
  • UMGoBlog
  • UMHoops
  • UMTailgate
  • Wolverine Liberation Army

M On The Net

  • mgovideo
  • MGoBlue.com
  • Mike DeSimone
  • Recruiting Planet
  • The Wolverine
  • Go Blue Wolverine
  • Winged Helmet
  • UMGoBlue.com
  • MaizeRage.org
  • Puckhead
  • The M Den
  • True Blue Fan Forum

Big Ten Blogs

  • Illinois
    • A Lion Eye
    • Hail To The Orange
    • Illinois Baseball Report
    • Illinois Loyalty
  • Indiana
    • Inside The Hall
    • The Crimson Quarry
  • Iowa
    • Black Heart, Gold Pants
    • Fight For Iowa
  • Michigan State
    • The Only Colors
  • Minnesota
    • GopherHole.com
    • The Daily Gopher
    • I'm In Love With A Fringe Bowl Team
    • TNABACG
  • Nebraska
    • Big Red Network
    • Corn Nation
    • Husker Mike's Blasphemy
    • Husker Gameday
  • Northwestern
    • Sippin' On Purple
    • Lake The Posts
  • Notre Dame
    • The House Rock Built
    • One Foot Down
  • Ohio State
    • Eleven Warriors
    • Buckeye Commentary
    • Men of the Scarlet and Gray
    • Our Honor Defend
    • The Buckeye Nine
  • Penn State
    • Slow States
    • Black Shoe Diaries
    • Happy Valley Hardball
    • Penn State Clips
    • Linebacker U
    • Nittany White Out
  • Purdue
    • Boiled Sports
    • Hammer and Rails
  • Wisconsin
    • Bruce Ciskie

Links of Note

  • Baseball
    • Big Ten Hardball
    • College Baseball Today
    • The Baseball Zealot
    • The College Baseball Blog
  • Basketball
    • Ken Pomeroy
    • Basketball Prospectus
    • Midmajority
  • College Hockey
    • Chris Heisenberg
    • College Hockey Stats
    • Inside College Hockey
    • Michigan College Hockey
    • Hockey's Future
    • Sioux Sports
    • USCHO
    • Western College Hockey
    • CCHA
      • LSSU Hockey
      • Bronco Hockey Blog
  • Football
    • Smart Football
    • Every Day Should Be Saturday
    • Doctor Saturday
    • CFB Stats
    • Harold Stassen
    • NCAA D-I Stats Page
    • The Wizard Of Odds
  • General
    • Sports Central
  • Local Interest
    • The Ann Arbor Chronicle
    • Arborwiki
    • Arbor Update
    • Teeter Talk
    • Vacuum
  • Teams Of The D
    • Lions
      • Pride of Detroit
      • Fire Millen
    • Pistons
      • Detroit Bad Boys
      • Need4Sheed
    • Tigers
      • Roar Of The Tigers
      • The Detroit Tigers Weblog
      • The Daily Fungo
    • Red Wings
      • On The Wings
      • Behind The Jersey
      • Winging It In Motown
    • Michigan Sports Forum

Get Yer Tickets

Find the best US sports betting sites on the web at onlinebetting.com. Sports wagering is getting more and more popular each year, so place your bets online today.

Enjoy online gambling? Why not try online poker or online roulette? Especially online roulette for real money. If you are going to play poker, then make sure you use the PartyPoker bonus code or PokerStars marketing code when signing up to these two poker giants.

If you're looking for online sports betting, Sportsbooks is your best option. Nothing else compares in variety and reliability.

Football Display Case

NFL Watches

Follow your favorite team with localtv-satellite.com: Click Here.

Always better to play free blackjack and free Flash slots online before making a purchase on any real online casino.

Site Search

Diaries

  • New
  • Popular
  • Hot
  • The Blockhams in "TACKLING TECHNIQUE"
    Six Zero - 5 hours ago
  • College Football 101 (#100)
    cstalionsuofm - 17 hours ago
  • Big Ten Recruiting Rankings: 5-21-12
    Ace - 1 day ago
  • College Football 101
    cstalionsuofm - 1 day ago
  • Space, bitches...wallpaper edition...
    jonvalk - 1 day ago
  •  
  • 1 of 5
  • ››
more
  • Dear Mr. Woodson; Quit talking to Mark Snyder.
    Section 1 - 4,894 views
  • Big Ten Recruiting Rankings: 5-21-12
    Ace - 3,271 views
  • Nebraska Recruiting, Michigan and the rest of the B1G
    UMgradMSUdad - 2,994 views
  • Beware History
    Blazefire - 2,107 views
  • College Football 101
    cstalionsuofm - 1,542 views
  •  
  • 1 of 2
  • ››
more
  • Dear Mr. Woodson; Quit talking to Mark Snyder.
    Section 1 - 136 comments
  • College Football 101
    cstalionsuofm - 43 comments
  • Conference Champions Only? A Playoff Case Study
    stephenrjking - 38 comments
  • Choosing Playoff Participants: Poll, Committee, or Autobid?
    oakapple - 27 comments
  • College Football 101 (#100)
    cstalionsuofm - 14 comments
  •  
  • 1 of 2
  • ››
more

MGoBoard

  • New
  • Recent
  • Hot
  • OT - Stanford names OC position after Andrew Luck
    30 replies
  • Brandon, Hollis nominated for SBJ Athletic Director of the Year
    11 replies
  • College Football Resumes in 100 days
    10 replies
  • OT: More Big XII Expansion Info
    43 replies
  • Borges loves recruiting to Michigan
    25 replies
  • Cowboys Classic 8pm start, The Game with Noon start
    20 replies
  • Maisel on Yost and Rockne Feud - "Hurdle the Dead"
    4 replies
  • Su'a Cravens to Visit Michigan and Ohio State in the Next Week
    50 replies
  • OT: James Bond Skyfall Trailer Edit: & Top 5 Bond movies list
    79 replies
  • Michigan/'Bama Super Regional Softball Preview
    19 replies
  • Michigan vs/ Bama tickets on sale now (Priority points only)
    26 replies
  • ESPN: Coaches Fans Hate (refers to UM Fans hating Tressel and GRob)
    46 replies
  • OT - Space, Bitches. Space (X) launches Falcon 9 Dragon to ISS
    63 replies
  • Darius Morris sighting
    30 replies
  • OT: Ways to Watch House tonight?
    27 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 7
  • ››
  • OT: More Big XII Expansion Info
    43 replies
  • Michigan vs/ Bama tickets on sale now (Priority points only)
    26 replies
  • OT: James Bond Skyfall Trailer Edit: & Top 5 Bond movies list
    79 replies
  • Borges loves recruiting to Michigan
    25 replies
  • Maisel on Yost and Rockne Feud - "Hurdle the Dead"
    4 replies
  • OT - Stanford names OC position after Andrew Luck
    29 replies
  • Cowboys Classic 8pm start, The Game with Noon start
    20 replies
  • Su'a Cravens to Visit Michigan and Ohio State in the Next Week
    50 replies
  • Michigan/'Bama Super Regional Softball Preview
    19 replies
  • Brandon, Hollis nominated for SBJ Athletic Director of the Year
    11 replies
  • Bennie Joppru had a stroke
    23 replies
  • ESPN: Coaches Fans Hate (refers to UM Fans hating Tressel and GRob)
    46 replies
  • College Football Resumes in 100 days
    10 replies
  • OT - Space, Bitches. Space (X) launches Falcon 9 Dragon to ISS
    63 replies
  • Darius Morris sighting
    30 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 7
  • ››
  • OT: Friday Afternoon "Whatcha Doing?" Open Posbang Thread
    252 replies
  • DAB: Alternate FB Uni Plan Forthcoming
    150 replies
  • MICHIGAN SOFTBALL: REGIONAL CHAMPS
    147 replies
  • Not so cryptic update from Tremendous re: Maurice Hurst Jr.?
    117 replies
  • Experiencing the Big House
    116 replies
  • Softball vs. Louisville open thread
    111 replies
  • OT: Champions League final discussion & live thread
    98 replies
  • Devin Gardner changes Number
    96 replies
  • Dallas Morning News: Big 12 Source said "We Might Be Moving Toward 4 Superconferences"
    96 replies
  • Scout revamps their player rankings
    95 replies
  • 5 star RB Davis to USC
    95 replies
  • OT: FSU to Big 12 talk picking up heat. Clemson and Georgia Tech in talks with big 12
    94 replies
  • Roy Roundtree to wear #21
    94 replies
  • FWIW Probable USC commit S'ua Craven has narrowed his list
    89 replies
  • OT-Pam Ward removed from ESPN college football coverage
    89 replies
  •  
  • 1 of 7
  • ››

mgo.licio.us

  • Former U-M tight end Bennie Joppru, 32, recovering from stroke

    best wishes

    2 comments
  • Michigan's Lewan maturing into a leader

    but what about the bike?

    1 comments
  • Relegation in College Football!

    amazingly, we don't go down in 2008.

    2 comments
  • Newest commit Copp discusses high-school football career, decision to pursue hockey

    “We’ve had season tickets (at Yost Ice Arena) ever since I was born,” he said. “It’s always been the dream to play there.”

    0 comments
  • FACES OF DESPAIR: BIG TEN MEETINGS

    "The wolf is the only constant, Adam. It takes care of its own and lives in the wound called the world. She rips it anew each day for the blood she needs to survive."

    0 comments
  • DTotD: An overhead kick to the throat in MLS

    Justin Meram didn't just score

    0 comments
  • Devin Booker blowing up, sticking to roots

    offer coming in a month, most likely

    0 comments
  • Versatile Nik Stauskas ready to do a bit of everything for the Michigan basketball team

    "I had so many Michigan fans and other people messaging me on Twitter and saying 'I hope you're ready to play point guard. I was a little bit worried."

    1 comments
  • Eso Akunne of Michigan Wolverines holds memories of mom close

    "Come home. We need to talk about mom."

    0 comments
  • Get Familiar: Michigan verbal Taco Charlton

    Enjoys things with "game" in the title.

    2 comments
  • Scouting Video: Derrick Walton at 2012 Spiece Run ‘n Slam

    sounds like all three Michigan commits are improving their stock so far

    0 comments
  • WTKA 1050AM Mott Takeover Schedule

    all of the people

    0 comments
  • Borges on Alabama game: Preparation 'has already begun'

    I'd hope so

    0 comments
  • Glen Steele tribute - YouTube

    one of the greatest names of all time #ofalltime

    1 comments
  • Quitting on Bo Schembechler was no easy task for baseball Hall of Fame-bound Barry Larkin

    Larkin said Schembechler scattered papers with a pound of his fist and "almost climbed over the desk" to point and tell him, “No one comes to the University of Michigan and plays stinkin’ baseball!”

    4 comments

Cissoko v. Sophomore Starters of Michigan Yore

By Seth — September 17th, 2009 at 3:08 PM — 64 comments
Filed under:
  • boubacar cissoko
  • cornerback
  • Michigan
or

YMRBoubacarCissokoFSFPA

or

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Todd Howard

For Boubacar, 'disguising coverage' is simply a matter of crouching.NOTE: Major edits made 9/18 to fix statistical errors -- used the opportunity to do a little clarification, and add some context for the "you knocked on boobie -- die mthrfkr!" contingent, which I realize I kind of brought on myself by not adding any context.

ALSO NOTE: This is e-pinion, not empirical fact.

Alas, again, I have begun to write a long Misopo-reply, only to upgrade mid-writing to a Diary.

This one goes out to MGoHero jg2112's "Support Boubacar Cissoko this Saturday" post, in which 'jg' posited that Boubacar Cissoko is this year's Martavious Odoms, i.e. a great player who gets the general M fan negbang beyond his actual faults.*

Cissoko is not Odoms.

For one, "Tay" is your vintage Rich-Rod slot ninja, a guy recruited for a system position. Cornerback, however, doesn't change much from Hermann to Robinson -- coverage, at the college level at least, is coverage, and every system puts cornerbacks in multiple roles during a game. In other words, Cissoko's size or jet-engine-ness are not something to get used to because of the coaching shift; he's a Carr recruit playing a position that fundamentally requires the same skill set.

His problems in the Notre Dame game, as noted in Brian's UFR, were not just size. He was bailing and leaving large cushions. This could be underclassman-y stuff from a true sophomore left out to dry with no safety help, but the mental mistakes, I think, were not what you expect from a lock-down corner. Or more importantly, not what you'd expect from a guy you might expect to join the ranks of the post-Bo pantheon of great corners.

Hey, Misopogon. It's Brian's bolded subconscious. Guess what I'm here for?

Um...chart?

You know me too well...

NameHeightWeightYearsTacklesPBUsInt
Boubacar Cissoko5.831802008-?2451

That's Boubacar's stats through two games into his sophomore season. Now lets compare with other Michigan cornerbacks who started played extensively (subsequent edits) earned a fair share of playing time their respedtive freshman years before starting as sophomores (all stats through 2nd game of true sophomore season):

Stars:
NameHeightWeightYearsTacklesPBUsInt
Ty Law6.001891992-945460
Charles Woodson6.081971995-975576
Marlin Jackson6.081902001-0461124
Leon Hall6.001912003-063353
Donovan Warren6.001802007-?6271

True freshmen who became serviceable-to-good late in their careers:
NameHeightWeightYearsTacklesPBUsInt
Deon Johnson6.172101991-941110
Andre Weathers6.081841994-981810
Markus Curry5.921832001-042101

The Late-'90s/Early '00s Backfield of Horrors
NameHeightWeightYearsTacklesPBUsInt
James Whitley5.921881997-003731
Todd Howard5.831781998-0119
3
0

And just so they don't feel left out, here's the stats after 2 games of true sophomores or redshirt freshmen who didn't start until their second years:

NameHeightWeightYearsTacklesPBUsInt
Morgan Trent6.001852004-08311
Woody Hankins5.751881992-96300
Jeremy LeSueur6.082001999-03310
Dwayne Ware5.921901988-92500

So what does this tell us? Well, it's not good, but it's also not much. Among the stars, the only one close to Cissoko's numbers (but still better by a solid margin) was Leon Hall. Hall, like Cissoko, was mostly a nickelback his freshman year, but Leon beat out upperclassman versions of 5-stars Markus Curry and Jeremy LeSueur for the starting gig as a sophomore. Without similar talent to compare Cissoko against, it has to be assumed that Cissoko's playing time wasn't as hard to earn as Hall's.

I think at this point, Cissoko has not demonstrated that he belongs with that group, who all:
  • Were 6 feet or taller
  • Earned starts as freshmen over returning starters
  • Showed an early aptitude for generating tackles.
Why tackles? That was a surprise to me, but it seems to check out career-wise as well. I don't think this is some anomaly; if I had to hazard a guess, I would say that cornerback is a position that relies a lot on pure talent and instinct, meaning strong talent will generally show up early in stats and playing time.

The stars-are-big-and-get-lots-of-playing-time-and-tackles-early lesson is the only relatively solid (and that has been questioned) thing I found in the statistics available (if anyone has access to better stats for corners, I'm all ears!)

So What Have We Here?

We've established that Cissoko isn't likely to be Woodson or Law (which, like, it's not like it's a sin to not be a Heisman winner or an NFL All-Pro). So then what is he?

As for the guys who became serviceable/good later in their careers, they generated those stats in a lot fewer snaps (e.g. Weathers didn't start playing regularly in '94 until late in the season; M.Curry was mostly a backup his freshman year).

Markus Curry is a possibility. Like Cissoko, he was a kick/punt returner his freshman year. A well-hyped recruit, he played early his freshman year but lost playing time to classmate Marlin Jackson's emergence early in the Big Ten season. Curry was a starter early his sophomore year, but then fell behind LeSeuer and Zia Combs (until that horrible injury -- G-d bless him wherever he is today).

The big difference between Cissoko and Curry the Younger, I think, is size, which has a big effect on either player's game. Curry was hyped as fast, but on the field his speed and agility turned out to be overrated, while after what we've seen of Cissoko, he definitely has the quicks and flat-out speed to keep up with anyone. Boubacar, however, is probably a good inch shorter than his listed height of 5'9", while Curry was just under 6.

Overall, Curry is a good comparison, but not great. Curry was bigger, and when he finally broke into the depth chart as a junior, the major difference IIRC was that he played "bigger," i.e. he was at his best when leaving a cushion, closing the gap, and popping the ball out, as opposed to pressing at the line, staying between the receiver and the ball, then trying to get his hands in the way.

Cissoko is never going to play, act, or be a big cornerback. He's a cover guy. In gauging his career arc, then, I would think that he will become exactly what he wasn't in the Notre Dame game. I can't fault him for giving Floyd a cushion (and there was only one fade which was pretty undefendable). But that's never going to be Boubacar's bread and butter.

The guys that Boubacar charts out closest to: I hate myself for doing this, but it's Whitley and Howard. Both are short (like Boubacar). Both were highly regarded recruits. Both were forced into lots of early playing time. Both were labeled Future Stars of the XFL by their sophomore years.

Of these two guys, Cissoko's early numbers are more like Whitley, but he strikes me as more Howard-esque than Whitley-esque. Todd was the smaller of the two, but also the faster, and more effective. He was owned early his sophomore year Future Star of the XFL James Whitleyagainst Plaxico Burress, mirroring Cissoko's game against Floyd, when Todd was forced to give a cushion and keep the big guy underneath. Eventually that game, Howard was moved over for David Terrell, who had the height and ups to run with Plaxico in man.

By his (Todd Howard's) senior year, he was a poor man's Morgan Trent, necessitating early starting time for freshmen Markus Curry, Jeremy LeSueur (RS) and Marlin Jackson. But he was world's more effective than he had been as a sophomore.

Howard, I remember vividly, also probably was more overrated than any other Wolverine -- every year -- in progressive versions of EA Sports's NCAA Football Series.

Unlike Whitley, Todd Howard was fast, and wasn't relegated to the short side. He was out-manned against top talent, but help up pretty well against receivers who weren't 6'8" or could leap small buildings in a single bound, or ran NFL routes, or scurried around in free space underneath thanks to Northwestern's spread, or had Drew Brees bullseyes coming at them, or were named Charles Rogers.

That's not to say that his career potential is lifelong bomb threat. Remember, after all, Whitley was the one who generated the bulk of M fan ire. Howard, on the other hand, covered the wide side, made the occasional great play (especially against Ohio State -- that photo below was a key PBU in the '01 game) and fared well when he wasn't going against future NFL talent. Like you, I was hoping for a lot more. But Todd Howard isn't all that bad.

It's perfectly okay to be Todd Howard -- so long as the guy opposite him isn't Whitley. And fortunately for us, barring early NFL, Donovan Warren is probably only just past the half-way mark of his career, and between Turner and the guys we look pretty good for next year, I think M's chances of scoring another one of those top-end guys ain't too shabby.

What's in Store?

Howard broke this up, BTW.In Year 2, Game 3 of Todd Howard's career, he had a breakout game at Syracuse minus McNabb, with 10 tackles, 1 sack for 15 yards, 2 PBUs and a forced fumble. Eastern Michigan isn't Syracuse '99, but hey, if Cissoko is all over the field on Saturday, remember you heard it here first.

There's a lot of time left in Cissoko's career. This is just an early analysis, and I think only made possible because he plays a position which, at least at Michigan, has tended to show its cards early.

Still, provided the other side of the field has Day 1 Draft Pick caliber guy opposite him, another Todd Howard isn't that bad of a prospect, really. What did Brian say in his secondary preview:
My go-to (and now rapidly aging) comparison was Arkansas corner Chris Houston, who I once saw battle the South Carolina star receiver before Kenny McKinley (his name escapes me) in a pitched Thursday night battle. Houston lined up two inches from his cover's grill and rode him into fades all night, some of which the opponent brought in spectacularly. That's life with feisty dwarves.
Word.

P.S. If Cissoko is Howard, this only adds fuel to the "Justin Turner is Jeremy LeSueur" contingent, which does not yet exist, and thus probably can't use fuel. But now it's out there.


* The whole "folks tend to knock on Odoms" thing is played out, IMHO, as evidenced by every show of Odoms support being met with a cascade of "I've always liked the guy" posts. I don't remember ever wanting to knock him, except to yell "take your gloves off!" into a couple of monsoons.
  • Seth's blog
  • Login or register to post comments

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.
September 17th, 2009 at 3:16 PM | You had me at chart... (Score:1)
Tha Stunna
Tha Stunna's picture
Joined: 10/13/2008
MGoPoints: 937

You had me at chart...

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 3:19 PM | Just like the ND game last year..... (Score:1)
Blue in Yarmouth
Blue in Yarmouth's picture
Joined: 02/18/2009
MGoPoints: 1869

Just like the ND game last year, stats don't always tell the whole story, and I think this may be another one of those cases. First off, UM was just plain bad last year so Booboo was not alone in his subpar performance and couple that with being a true freshman on a bad defense.

His first game he looked good against decent competition and last game he looked terrible (IME) against great competition whilst injured. I don't think we can draw any conclusions just yet.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 3:27 PM | Cissoko (Score:1)
jg2112
jg2112's picture
Joined: 11/25/2008
MGoPoints: 5497

only started one game last year - as the nickel against Purdue.

He's played 90 minutes as the designated corner opposite Donovan Warren. Last year that job was Morgan Trent's.

So you should keep in mind in looking at the stats listed above that he's been a starter for about 150 minutes of game action.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 3:32 PM | Didn't he also (Score:1)
M-Go-Bleu
Joined: 09/16/2009
MGoPoints: 0

Start in the McDonalds All-American game or something. He was one of the stars.

MGoBleu

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 3:27 PM | Good point (Score:1)
M-Go-Bleu
Joined: 09/16/2009
MGoPoints: 0

Beyond being a true freshman on a bad defense, he was a true freshman with the worst offense Michigan has ever fielded, which put him on the field a lot. He probably had two seasons worth of experience last year.

MGoBleu

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 3:19 PM | I guess its a matter of perspective (Score:1)
BlueSeoul
BlueSeoul's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 2609

when I look at those numbers, they seem similar to leon hall's (especially if he holds onto the interception this week). The size will be a problem going forward. There's no way around that. But I'd feel pretty comfortable putting him on 6'0" WR. Much taller than that, and there's going to be jump ball problems. I don't think booboo is anywhere near as bad as todd howard.

http://ttifi.blogspot.com

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 3:25 PM | How many of these .... (Score:1)
jg2112
jg2112's picture
Joined: 11/25/2008
MGoPoints: 5497

... former starters, with a half of starting experience, then had to defend an NFL wide receiver being passed to by a consensus 5 star QB with no pressure, with that starter getting no safety help, playing with a bad arm, giving up 6 inches and 60 pounds?

I don't get these arguments against Cissoko at all. 90 minutes of game time and he's not good enough? How defeatist is that?

And as for bailing and leaving large cushions, right. It would've been way better for him to play press coverage on Floyd with one arm. The game would have ended 58-38 Notre Dame.

We've turned into the Chicago Bears' fanbase, which is essentially looking to cut Jay Cutler after one game.

If you think JT Floyd, JT Turner or Teric Jones would be better right now (heck, even Adrian Witty), you've got the right. But I don't think you're right, and I'm not right. Why? Because after 90 minutes of playing time, we do not know how good Cissoko is. If he gets repeatedly torched this weekend we've got a problem. I'm just asking for a little perspective here - I know the Notre Dame fanbase thought Clausen stunk after his second game as a starter as well, and look how that's turned out. Experience and knowledge helps football players quite a bit.

The arguments against Ezeh's performance, now, are justified. Those against Cissoko's, are not, not yet.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 3:34 PM | Did I say cut? Did I say boo (Score:1)
Seth
Seth's picture
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 12968

Did I say cut?

Did I say boo booboo?

I said his stats and recruiting guru-ishness, and his mite-with-great-quicks profile thus far in his career are exquisitely Todd Howard-like.

And I said I learned to stop worrying and love Todd Howard. He was a serviceable cornerback who got beat against top-end talent. Floyd may have been Cissoko's Plaxico; keep in mind Howard never again went up against a receiver as tough as Buress (seeing as the Big Ten's best two receivers from then on wore 1 and 4 for Howard's team).

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 9:27 AM | justified? (Score:1)
whitedawg
Joined: 07/08/2008
MGoPoints: 141

Clausen DID stink until the Hawaii Bowl last year.

(Sorry, just wanted to remind myself of how bad the Irish have been the past 2 years.)

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 3:26 PM | Chart :( (Score:1)
bouje
bouje's picture
Joined: 09/30/2008
MGoPoints: 4708

This chart was not like the Offense UFR chart. It was like the defensive UFR. Sad day

"A house divided against itself cannot stand"

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 4:19 PM | Press Conference (Score:1)
TripleLindy
TripleLindy's picture
Joined: 09/01/2009
MGoPoints: 65

RichRod acknowleged in his presser that Boubacar had a bad day. Hopefully they can coach him up to being a functional/above average corner.

From the small sample size, he appears to have the same stone hands that whitley and howard possessed. Whitley terrified me returning punts. If he makes that pick that hit him directly in the numbers, the game is probably over at that point.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 11:52 PM | Kinda hard to catch a ball (Score:1)
wishitwas97
Joined: 01/29/2009
MGoPoints: 89

when you are playing with one arm(Shoulder stinger). Try catching the ball with that type of injury. It will hurt like hell.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 4:09 PM | this entire thing relies on (Score:1)
chitownblue2
chitownblue2's picture
Joined: 06/03/2009
MGoPoints: 6433

this entire thing relies on the somewhat weak assertion that a Cornerback's stats accurately reflect their performance, and leans extremely heavily on one single performance (against Michael Floyd) due to extreme tiny sample-size. In other words, this is utter nonsense - no sugarcoat.

wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 5:00 PM | Agreed (Score:1)
ShakersFromDaUP
ShakersFromDaUP's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 74

Totally agree that the stats can be misleading. I appreciate the effort to compile the stats, but I'm not sure that a cornerback's tackle numbers have anything to do with their overall performance. I would be willing to bet that the best corners with high reputations have less tackles than their weaker teammate.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 5:40 PM | Actually, Tackles Have a Lot to do With Overall Performance! (Score:1)
Seth
Seth's picture
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 12968

Going in, I thought that too. But from this sample, no -- lots of tackles has a high correlation with how good the guy is.

Here's the Top 10 Michigan leaders in tackles per season among cornerbacks since 1990:

# Name TK per season
1 Ty Law 42.7
2 Charles Woodson 40.0
3 Marlin Jackson 36.8
4 Leon Hall 36.5
5 James Whitley 36.3
6 Jeremy LeSueur 32.8
7 Todd Howard 31.0
8 Morgan Trent 30.0
9 Markus Curry 24.3
10 Andre Weathers 21.0

Top is better, eh?

Here's PBUs, same guys:

# Name PBUs per season
1 Charles Woodson 8.3
2 Todd Howard 8.3
3 Leon Hall 7.8
4 James Whitley 6.8
5 Marlin Jackson 6.3
6 Ty Law 6.0
7 Jeremy LeSueur 5.8
8 Markus Curry 4.5
9 Morgan Trent 4.0
10 Andre Weathers 2.3

Not as correlative at all. At best, it suggests that Howard was a good cover guy, but memory serves different.

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 11:50 PM | statistics (Score:1)
wishitwas97
Joined: 01/29/2009
MGoPoints: 89

never tells a story of how good of a CB is. For example, Nnamdi Asomugha is widely considered to be the best CB in the league, yet only recorded on INT and few PBU. Does it mean that he sucks? No, it's because no one throws to his side if any at all. You have to pretty much go by what you see on gametape(not on tv that is) to determine if a CB is good or not.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 9:54 AM | But, Misopogon - I don't need (Score:1)
chitownblue2
chitownblue2's picture
Joined: 06/03/2009
MGoPoints: 6433

But, Misopogon - I don't need to quote the hackneyed premise of "Correlation does not imply causation" - just because, in your sample of 10 players, the better players had more tackles doesn't mean THAT'S WHY THEY WERE BETTER PLAYERS. In this case, think about it: Why would a CB have lots of tackles? I can think of two reasons.

1) The guy they are covering catches lots of passes. I'd say that this would not suggest they're doing a great job.

2) They're deployed in a way that gives them more responsibility in the running game. This has less to do with skill, and more to do with defensive scheme.

You use of statistics, frankly, is somewhat disinenuous. You accurately quote Woodson as having a hefty seasonal tackle total, but hidden in the average is a nugget of truth that damns your point:

IN 1997 (WOODSON'S BEST YEAR) HE HAD SIGNIFICANTLY FEWER TACKLES THAN HIS AVERAGE

If tackles indicate elite perfomance, why was his best season the year in which he had the fewest? Leon Hall's lowest tackle total as a starter came in his senior year - his best. So again, do tackles imply better peformance?

Or, is it possible that you're missing something? Woodson and Jackson started as freshmen, Hall and Law started as sophomores. Is it possible that Woodson posted higher tackle totals as a freshman and sophomore because he wasn't quite as good as he'd become, and thus allowed more completions?

Upon further research, your use of averages hide lots of problmes with your conclusions:

James Whitley holds the Michigan single-season record for tackles by a CB with 65 - we can agree Whitley was a poor player. His AVERAGE falls below Law because Law started every single game of his Michigan career, and Whitley hardly got off the bench as a freshman - his 13 tackles that year hurt his average.

In other words - the guys at the top of your list are there because they started a disproportionately large percentage of their college games (Law, Woodson, Jackson, Hall), while those at the bottom had at least one season of virtually no playing time. In other words - it's saying that the guys good enough to start as freshmen were better players than those who weren't. Which - no shit.

wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 12:10 PM | I think the value of tackles (Score:1)
Seth
Seth's picture
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 12968

I think the value of tackles as an indication of good cornerback play is regressive as that player's career progresses.

Where I disagree with you is in the thinking that LESS playing time should count FOR a player.

Hell yes tackles indicate more playing time. More playing time also indicates, A BETTER PLAYER.

Because a player does most of his job competition early on, this metric has the greatest effect EARLY in a player's career -- so how many tackles a guy has wracked up by his 14th game of eligibility says something about his overall talent versus the overall talent of the guys he's competing with. Since in both cases we know the values of the second variables (overall DB talent), we can thus assume a value for the first (our guy's talent).

Early tackling proficiency demonstrates the coach's willingness to play said cornerback, and not just in deep coverage.

As to Woodson's best year being his worst-tackling year, I think that's the exception that proves the rule. We know from watching 1997 EXACTLY why his tackles went down: opponents wouldn't throw the ball his way.

Note that his TOTAL TACKLES goes from 55 his freshman year, to 63 as a sophomore, and then 44 as a junior. But yet his assisted tackles goes up, from 10, to 15, to 17. This looks like a clear sign that the talent is still there, but that the ball is purposely being kept away from him.

Also note how this effect was specific only to very late in his career. After the Immaculate Interception at Michigan State, he gets 3 solo tackles against the Gophers, then 1 solo tackle the rest of the season (4 games through the bowl game) with 8 assists.

This can be extrapolated as further evidence for specifically EARLY tackling numbers to be a measure of a cornerback's proficiency -- because there's no way for a player at that point in his career to have earned a reputation to such a degree that it drastically changes opponents' offensive tendencies.

It also may demonstrate something that I touched on in the re-write, which is a difference in the style of cornerbacking. Granted, all corners are expected to cover, play bump-and-run, or keep the play in front of them within a given game. But some corners are better or worse at those various aspects, and there are plenty of opportunities within a game, I think, in which with one cornerback you may want to keep the play in front of him, but play a tight press with another corner.

I think a big guy can play with more of a cushion, because he can come in and make a hit, but may not have the speed to keep up if the ball goes deep. This generates tackles, because receivers are running more hitches and stop routes. A smaller, quicker guy like Cissoko, though, would negate the hitch, so long as he's playing tight. The plays he would be in on, then, would be more along the lines of reacting to and knocking down out patterns, slants, and especially all forms of deep routes. That generates fewer tackles.

Which style is better? I think it's pretty clear that the "shut-down" style is preferable to the "cover", but it's only available if you can come by a guy with that kind of size who can still react to the ball. As we've seen, when Michigan has found such a guy, he has been inserted in the lineup early, and except for a guy like Hall who was under a very deep depth chart his freshman year, they have wracked up upwards of 50 tackles by the 2nd game of their sophomore years. Cissoko isn't one of those guys.

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 12:48 PM | I think you're really missing (Score:1)
dankbrogoblue
dankbrogoblue's picture
Joined: 11/12/2008
MGoPoints: 175

I think you're really missing the point here. If you want to use tackles as an indication for playing time then why not use playing time?
Think back to last week, for example. IIRC, Cissoko never gave up many YAC which, kudos, his tackling was there. But, the reason he had to tackle is because his coverage was poor. So his tackles are actually indicating bad play.
That + Chitown's point about scheme = no significance
Cornerback is one of the only positions that statistics do very little to measure quality.
Other than that, great write up.

LSA '11

Yeah, that class.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 1:03 PM | Nonononononono (Score:1)
chitownblue2
chitownblue2's picture
Joined: 06/03/2009
MGoPoints: 6433

Hell yes tackles indicate more playing time. More playing time also indicates, A BETTER PLAYER.

Because a player does most of his job competition early on, this metric has the greatest effect EARLY in a player's career -- so how many tackles a guy has wracked up by his 14th game of eligibility says something about his overall talent versus the overall talent of the guys he's competing with. Since in both cases we know the values of the second variables (overall DB talent), we can thus assume a value for the first (our guy's talent).

Early tackling proficiency demonstrates the coach's willingness to play said cornerback, and not just in deep coverage.

TACKLING has nothing to do with their quality - the early playing time does. # of tackles isn't indicative of shit - it's indicative of playing time.

The players' tackling #'s are higher because they're on the field to accrue more tackles - not because they're better tacklers.

Your argument boils down to the blindingly obvious conclusion of "players good enough to start as freshmen are better than players who are not". But you should probably examine WHY that may be the case, right?

Ty Law won the competition to be CB opposite Ware in 1992, but the previous year's other starter, Dottin was gone - the spot was open.

Woodson, in 1995, came into a situation where BOTH CB positions had been vacated by the previous year's starters (Law and Deon Johnson).

Well, Cissoko came in against a two year incumbant starter, and a 5-star, all-everything returning starter. The situation wasn't quite the same.

The recruiting class of '97 had 4 corners who would get significant PT in their careers - Howard, Whitley, Brandon Williams, and Will Peterson. As freshmen, UM returned the previous season's #1 CB (Woodson), the #3 (Chuckie Winters), and the #4 (Andre Weathers). Weathers won the #2 job (vacated by Woodrow Hankins), and Whitley, Williams, and Peterson all split time as the nickelback.

Your argument is like claiming that Hank Aaron is better than Pujols because he has more homers. Your premise (Aaron is better) isn't neccsarily wrong, but the information you're using to back it up (he has more home runs) doesn't accurately lead to that conclusion, because of course Aaron hit more home-runs - his career, to this point was a decade longer.

wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 1:30 PM | You (and dankrobe) both seem (Score:1)
Seth
Seth's picture
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 12968

You (and dankrogoblue) both seem to have missed the second half of that.

Early playing time doesn't say it as strongly as early playing time AND tackles. And I posit this because the tackles

a) show a strong correlation to general awesomeness
b) are demonstrative of quickness to the ball and general awareness that seem to be hallmarks of young great cornerbacks
c) are demonstrative of the style of cornerback that can play off and close the gap, which has been the most effective for us.

In other words, the guys who became stars, early on, had the talent not just to start, but to play a style that wracks up high tackle numbers for that position. I seriously doubt all of those tackles are stop patterns that Cissoko would have knocked away. If they had, it would have been something that all of us who watched those games would have noticed, right? I remember all of these guys but Law as freshmen (that was before high school for me), and I succinctly remember all of them, particularly Woodson, Jackson and Warren, making excellent tackles against the run, or passes that weren't on them. That's just memory, though. But are yours any different?

My second argument, I think you misportrayed as:

"players good enough to start as freshmen are better than players who are not".

It's "players good enough to start as freshmen are better than those they start over."

Since we now have a decent concept of how good the guys are that were beaten for these jobs (except like Justin Turner), we can use that to put a young CB's play in context.

As a freshman, Boubacar Cissoko could not replace Morgan Trent. This is useful in placing him against Leon Hall, who is the most Cissoko-like of the star CBs. Hall as a freshman beat out 5th Year Senior LeSeuer, and Junior Markus Curry. Since Trent < Late-LeSeuer, we can say that Hall > Cissoko.

Another: Marlin Jackson by the end of his freshman year was the No. 1 CB over senior Todd Howard. Since SR. Trent ≈ SR. Howard, we can say that Jackson as a freshman > Cissoko as a freshman.

That was the point of that metric.

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 2:56 PM | Because Jackson was better (Score:1)
chitownblue2
chitownblue2's picture
Joined: 06/03/2009
MGoPoints: 6433

Because Jackson was better than Howard, Jackson is better than Cissoko? That doesn't follow. At all. You're relying on your statement of "Trent = Howard", which is hardly gospel. It's fine if you want to write all this and claim it "opinion", it's just frustrating for me to see you cloak sheer conjecture as "research" and "empirical evidence".

And look - just because global warming has increased while sea-Piracy had descreased doesn't mean Pirates don't like the heat - playing-time correlates with "being good" and "number of tackles" - that doesn't mean that "number of tackles" and "being good" are related. It's an incidental, non-causal relationship.

Additionally - Leon Hall never beat out LeSueur - LeSueur and Curry were are starting corners in 2003 - Hall was our nickel. Marlin Jackson was playing safety. Hall beat out the illustrious Willis Barringer.

Finally - you can't treat every "competition" the same. Cissoko was a freshman in a year that we returned the previous year's top 3 CB's (Trent, Warren, Harrison). Woodson was a freshman in a year in which we returned NONE of the previous year's top 3 CB's.

wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 2:57 PM | That's it? I needed to state (Score:1)
Seth
Seth's picture
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 12968

That's it? I needed to state it was opinion?

Done.

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 3:00 PM | Well, clearly it's an opinion (Score:1)
chitownblue2
chitownblue2's picture
Joined: 06/03/2009
MGoPoints: 6433

Well, clearly it's an opinion - my main objection is the holocaust you committed on basic Stats 101.

Regardless, I yield.

wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 3:08 PM | The horizontal allotment for (Score:1)
Seth
Seth's picture
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 12968

The horizontal allotment for this argument is growing slim, so I will try to come to some consensus.

You raise a very good point: I need to show a causal relationship between MORE TACKLES and AWESOME CORNERBACK PLAY beyond "every awesome cornerback had lots of tackles at this point in his career and every non-awesome guy didn't."

I think I know the way to do this with Mgoblue's stat database, but it'll take more stat-work than I have time for this weekend (holiday).

Thank you for the fair critique and discussion. When the time comes time for the great purge of all Che posters from Ann Arbor, your house will be spared.

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 5:37 PM | Your crucial assertion is unproven (Score:1)
cfaller96
cfaller96's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 1325

Early playing time doesn't say it as strongly as early playing time AND tackles. And I posit this because the tackles...

Precisely where are the numbers that show this assertion? Where is your proof that "Early playing time AND tackles" is a stronger predictor of CB quality than "Early playing time" alone?

I don't see it here. And it seems to be pretty important to your argument- otherwise, why look at tackling at all?

The Wolverine Liberation Army- saving Michigan fans one dick joke at a time.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 5:07 PM | I don't think anything here (Score:1)
Seth
Seth's picture
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 12968

I don't think anything here is conclusive. We're still deep in the "what have we here?" stage of this guy's career.

However, though a cornerback's stats aren't perfect indicators of performance, I was surprised at how strong the correlation was between early stats and meta-human production at corner.

Of all of our NFL-ready CBs, the lowest amount of tackles by Game 2 sophomore year was Leon Hall's 33. After that you have Ty Law at 54, Woodson at 55, and Jackson and Warren in the 60s.

If I showed you the stats without the names and asked you to pick out the five best cornerbacks -- only based on statistics provided through Game 2 of each player's sophomore season -- you'd most likely grab all five! That's some good correlation.

I thought about the snap problem, but figure this: just to earn playing time as a true freshman, you have to be X good, or the cornerback depth has to be Y bad. That was another similarity between Cissoko and Howard -- they wracked up playing time when the position was weak.

I could have written this same post last week, and gotten virtually the same stats -- Cissoko's bad day against ND barely registered in the stats I chose to highlight. So that's unfair to say this analysis rests heavily on last week's game. If anything, it's unfair to Howard, since he had a 75 percent jump in tackles in Year 2 Game 2.

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 6:04 PM | what portion of the better (Score:1)
ish
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 7317

what portion of the better CBs' time were they asked to cover someone like michael floyd? i don't know the answer, but i hope the question just means the sample size is a little too small at the moment.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 6:12 PM | But Cissoko's playing time, (Score:1)
chitownblue2
chitownblue2's picture
Joined: 06/03/2009
MGoPoints: 6433

But Cissoko's playing time, at this point, is disproportionately against Michael Floyd - and that's almost it. Who were your other CB's guarding through this point of their career?

wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 6:55 PM | A few freshman opponents. (Score:1)
Seth
Seth's picture
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 12968

Woodson had 7 tackles and 2 interceptions covering Terry Glenn his freshman year.

Ty Law basically wore Brian Stabelein but then got torched most of the Rose Bowl by Mario Bailey.

Marlin Jackson was glued to Donte Stallworth during that Citrus blowout (which mostly happened on the ground).

Leon Hall was one of many guys tasked with tracking down Charles Rogers, though I think Marlin bore the brunt of that one. As for the Rose Bowl and USC -- pick one -- we played zone all day to contain those guys.

Donovan Warren wasn't on Ted Ginn in '07, and everyone thought that was a mistake. UFRs are available from that season if you want to compare.

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 8:56 PM | I'm not sure how you can say (Score:1)
webmanspidey
webmanspidey's picture
Joined: 07/05/2008
MGoPoints: 20

I'm not sure how you can say the Citrus blowout mostly happened on the ground... Casey Clausen threw for more than 400 yards in that game. Stallworth had 119 yards on 8 catches.

Also, Ted Ginn left OSU after the 2006 season. Warren and Ginn never played against each other.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 12:24 PM | Ah, see, this is why I go (Score:1)
Seth
Seth's picture
Joined: 10/14/2008
MGoPoints: 12968

Ah, see, this is why I go online to get statistics, because my memory blows.

P.S. I negged myself for it (self-hating Jew?)

(Blogger alias: "Misopogon") This team is under construction. We thank you for your patience.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 5:24 PM | Don't even have to post my thoughts anymore (Score:1)
petered0518
Joined: 08/05/2009
MGoPoints: 3

because that sums them up pretty well.

In addition, you only compare height and weight, excluding 40 times(fake though they may be) and agility drill times(forget the name of that one). I would argue that those stats are almost as important as height in comparing the potential physical abilities of a corner.

We also have no idea of the coverage types. Cissoko was left on his own for much of the game. If a corner has safety help over the top he is free to be more aggressive leading to more pbu's and interceptions.

Q: Why did the actuary put it in his will to be buried in Israel?
A: The chances of resurrection are better there.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 8:52 AM | I am not sure any of the comparisons matter (Score:1)
Blue in Yarmouth
Blue in Yarmouth's picture
Joined: 02/18/2009
MGoPoints: 1869

I am not entirely sure what we are trying to do here...Find a player from our past that has similarities to Cissoko i guess. What is the significance?

Now people are talking about the need for 40 times and other agility drills? For what?

The bottom line is Cissoko is our CB today, not Woodson, not Law or Jackson....Cissoko. So how he compares to any of these is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter if he is 4'3" and runs a 5.3 40, he is our 2nd CB and will be asked to cover most teams 2nd WR. Nothing else matters at this point and none of this idle chatter will change anything.

To me, the only certainty is that it is far too early to judge Cissoko and trying to gauge his future by looking at our past CB's stats after he has played 2 games is beyond useless. Give him a shot and re-evaluate after some significant playing time.

I will say again, he looked good against Western IME.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 10:48 AM | The original poster was (Score:1)
petered0518
Joined: 08/05/2009
MGoPoints: 3

The original poster was matching physical characteristics and stats to extrapolate the career of Cissoko. This is very common practice.
I was just pointing out why I thought his comparisons are not valid or useful for determining the potential of a cornerback.

Still, I think that the original poster is correct in trying to make correlations with past players. For example, if it is a consistent trend that small slow cornerbacks don't perform well, then it would be reasonable to assume that if we currently had a small slow cornerback he probably won't be very good.

So yes, it does matter if he is 4'3" and runs a 5.3 40, because then we better be seeing JT Floyd pretty soon.

Q: Why did the actuary put it in his will to be buried in Israel?
A: The chances of resurrection are better there.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 4:20 PM | One more comment on context.... (Score:1)
AC1997
AC1997's picture
Joined: 09/19/2008
MGoPoints: 750

I agree 100% that you can't draw any conclusions based on sample size. But let me through some thoughts at you:

-- I remember both Howard and Whitley being able to run stride for stride with WR but never having any ball skills or awareness that would allow them to do anything other than tackle after the catch.
-- To me, Whitley and Howard were both the perfect #2 CB. They didn't have that extra ability to make them a shut-down #1, but they could hold their own against most other WR.
-- What sunk their careers perhaps as much as anything was that they were on the field at the same time. Look at those "studs" and which years they did not overlap. The one gap was when Whitley turned out to be something other than a stud.

So maybe what we're seeing here is that Cissoko isn't going to be a stud, but I'm not sure who thought he would be. I think we have to hope that either Warren stays one more year or Turner becomes that stud CB so that Cissoko can be a solid #2.

What is interesting is that this year you might not see as many 3-CB sets with Brown in his role. Will that help Turner's development or slow it down?

AC-1997

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 4:27 PM | Yes - for instance, when (Score:1)
chitownblue2
chitownblue2's picture
Joined: 06/03/2009
MGoPoints: 6433

Yes - for instance, when Andre Weather played opposite Woodson, he was All Big 10. The following year, opposite Howard, he was a trainwreck.

wolverineliberationarmy.com/blog

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 4:35 PM | Turner's development (Score:1)
wolfman81
wolfman81's picture
Joined: 12/17/2008
MGoPoints: 358

What is interesting is that this year you might not see as many 3-CB sets with Brown in his role. Will that help Turner's development or slow it down?

This new defensive scheme may be the end of the nickel package, but there are plenty of opponents that Michigan should be blowing up pretty good (like EMU). So Turner should see time, even quasi-meaningful time against those teams. When they are up 14-0, they should run the #2 defense out there, trying to develop some depth. (I also envision alot of Denard out there throwing the ball Saturday.)

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 9:02 PM | To me, Whitley and Howard (Score:1)
jmblue
Joined: 11/07/2008
MGoPoints: 26839

To me, Whitley and Howard were both the perfect #2 CB.

Howard developed into a halfway decent player by the time he was an upperclassman, but Whitley quite frankly shouldn't have been more than a nickelback. He was not a good cover guy. He was small and slow - a killer combination. We always put Whitley on the short side of the field, where there was more safety help, and he still was a huge liability.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 9:38 PM | whitley (Score:1)
umchicago
Joined: 02/05/2009
MGoPoints: 2979

at 5-11 i wouldn't call whitley short. that's probably close to avg for a CB. also, i believe he played 3 years in the nfl. would the NFL draft a slow short corner?

imho, i think we went through a stretch where we didn't coach-up our CBs. i remember tons of plays where guys like howard, whitley, hall and lesuer would be running with the WRs but not look back for the ball. thus, giving up the catch.

warren's play against ND was text book. i think he's going to reach the potential we all hoped. let's hope boobie does the same. he surely has the speed and showed flashes last year.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 7:56 AM | Whitley was more like 5'8" or (Score:1)
jmblue
Joined: 11/07/2008
MGoPoints: 26839

Whitley was more like 5'8" or 5'9" in real life. And he wasn't very fast. He had decent hip flexibility, which is important, but he was a serious liability on deep routes, which is why we always put him on the short side of the field, where he had more help. He did make the NFL, but it was mostly as a special-teams guy.

I do agree that Teryl Austin wasn't a very good DB coach.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 9:31 AM | 5'11" (Score:1)
whitedawg
Joined: 07/08/2008
MGoPoints: 141

Pro Football Reference says Whitley was 5'11"... and they usually use the official numbers, which come from the draft combine.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WhitJa21.htm

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 4:48 PM | Snaps (Score:1)
Kilgore Trout
Kilgore Trout's picture
Joined: 02/20/2009
MGoPoints: 1765

I'd buy into this a little more if there were some numbers on how many snaps all of these people played. I try to block last season out as much as possible, but I don't think he played all that much last year as a true freshman. I think labeling him a true freshman starter is being a bit liberal.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 2:27 AM | Good point. I was thinking (Score:1)
GoBlueBalls
GoBlueBalls's picture
Joined: 06/30/2008
MGoPoints: 178

Good point. I was thinking the same thing. Cissoko is def not a player in the 14th game of career.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 5:03 PM | Maybe I just missed it, wooosh... (Score:1)
WestCoastWolverine
Joined: 10/09/2008
MGoPoints: 723

but, where is the stat that shows the total playing time of each player? Did Hall, Woodson, Law and Jackson have twice the amount of PT through game 2 of their sophomore years than Cissoko? If so, that would factor big time into those stats. I have a hunch that those five studs had more PT than Cissoko through game 2 of their sophomore years.

I'm gonna take two weeks off, and then quit.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 5:28 PM | Good stuff but my god man, (Score:1)
UNCWolverine
UNCWolverine's picture
Joined: 10/06/2008
MGoPoints: 179

Good stuff but my god man, how much time did it take you to gather all of those stats? Wow.

“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” - Benjamin Franklin

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 8:07 PM | Good stuff, but too early (Score:1)
Lordfoul
Lordfoul's picture
Joined: 07/01/2008
MGoPoints: 1099

Good stuff, but too early IME. BooBoo will be better than Howard I think, but always struggle with receivers he gives up a foot to. Let him develop before judging him.

 

"If left isn't right, then right is all you have left. Right?" - Beagly Beagly to the Great Grape Ape

www.ourstrawbalegarden.blogspot.com

  • Login or register to post comments
September 17th, 2009 at 9:55 PM | stats (Score:1)
umchicago
Joined: 02/05/2009
MGoPoints: 2979

i don't know if they exist, but i think the best stat for a CB would be to compile a QB rating for passes thrown in that CB's direction. i'm not sure tackles and pbus tell the whole story.

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 1:04 AM | Unless the player is Mundy (while at Michigan) ; (Score:1)
Muttley
Muttley's picture
Joined: 07/07/2009
MGoPoints: 3603

if one was forced to omit the YAM metric

  • Login or register to post comments
September 18th, 2009 at 9:07 AM | Bingo. Catch rate, yards per (Score:1)
B Ready
Joined: 01/13/2009
MGoPoints: 113

Bingo. Catch rate, yards per attempt while thrown in a CB's direction, TD's allowed, etc. are also more telling than tackles, INT's and PBU.

  • Login or register to post comments
  • 1
  • 2
  • next ›
  • last »
Powered by Drupal, an open source content management system
Theme provided by Roopletheme; sidebars adapted from Chris Murphy.