CC: Where we stand - Part III

Submitted by Ron Utah on

 

Part I: Jim Harbaugh, John Harbaugh, Les Miles, Todd Graham, Jim McElwain, Craig Bohl.

Part II: Dan Mullen, Mark Stoops.

I'd rather have Rutgers Schiano than Tampa Bay Schiano, thank you very much

More CC candidates for your perusal.

Greg Schiano, Unemployed

  • Track Record: B. Schiano took over a pathetic Rutgers outfit and turned it into a decent program. Only won 3 games his first two seasons, and had a 4-8 blip in 2010. Did not go to a bowl until his fifth season. Did not do well against ranked competition. Only one double-digit win season. But, Rutgers. Also, his 11-21 record at Tampa Bay is...not great.

  • Michigan Ties: B-. Born in New Jersey and went to Bucknell (central PA). Coached at Penn State, the Chicago Bears, Miami (YTM), and Rutgers. Clearly knows the footprint.

  • Recruiting: B. Schiano did a very good job rebuilding Rutgers, but let's not pretend he was getting the best talent in the country there. But, Rutgers.

  • Chances/Loyalty: B. Supposedly, Schiano has already said yes to Michigan (in 2007). Would he mean it this time? And would he go back to the NFL? Would probably stay awhile; was at Rutgers for 12 seasons.

  • Demeanor: B. Somehow is still only 48 years old. Known as a highly-demanding, motivational coach. Described as detail-oriented.

  • Three Phases: B-. Manball offense was never near the top of the country (peaked at 22 in 2006), but he is known for defense and his special teams at Rutgers were solid.

  • Roster Fit: A. Schiano's offenses and defenses were similar in philosophy to the current regime, and should be able to excel with the current roster.

  • OVERALL GPA: 3.05 (B). Schiano is an intriguing prospect. He should be able to have instant success with our current players, and he is a detail-oriented coach with a unique approach (uses soundbites to coach players). I would view him as a good hire, but not a homerun.

Gary Patterson, HC TCU

  • Track Record: B. Patterson was very good in Conference USA, and he owned the Mountain West. The Big 12? Not so much. He's 7-13 there. Overall, though, he's still 124-45 has a head coach.

  • Michigan Ties: D. Nothing here. Was the LB coach of Pittsburgh State in 1988...that's the closest he's gotten. Was born in Kansas and played college ball at K. State.

  • Recruiting: B-. It's obvious he gets to most out of his talent, because he doesn't get that much. Yes, it's TCU, but it's also Texas. Plenty of great players in his neighborhood.

  • Chances/Loyalty: C-. Does Patterson have any desire to coach anywhere but TCU? Having no ties to Michigan, would he stay?

  • Demeanor: A-. Quality guy who speaks well. Would be a good fit at Michigan, IMO.

  • Three Phases: B+. Defenses have been amazing, offenses have been good-to-very good, but not as much success in Big 12.

  • Roster Fit: C+. Spready offense is paired with a 4-2-5 defense at TCU that uses three safeties, our shallowest position. Also, systems are based on speed, which we seem to lack.

  • OVERALL GPA: 2.57 (B-). Patterson is a guy who has had some success but is just now starting to compete in a Power 5 conference. I don't see him coming to Michigan, and I'd be luke warm on the hire if he did.

Comments

ST3

October 13th, 2014 at 3:17 PM ^

I don't understand the Schiano affection around these parts. This is not directed at Ron Utah specifically. Frankly, I can go through that criteria and Brady Hoke tops Schiano in at least four, arguably 5 or 6 of the 7 items. If Brady gets fired, I hope they hire someone better than a guy who had 1 season out of 11 where he finished with less than 4 losses. He basically convinced some NJ recruits to stay at home. What competition does he have in the NY/NJ area for recruiting? Temple? UConn? His Rutgers record is 68-67. Brady's pre-Michigan record was 47-50, and at least Brady "improved" two programs. Improved in quotes because his SDSU tenure was really too short to give any grade but incomplete.

tricks574

October 13th, 2014 at 10:35 PM ^

Like, real ugly. Pretty much everyone roundly hated him in the league, he had some of that bullshit about going after players while taking a knee, he had the whole "Schiano men" thing, and above all, he had a pretty terrible team. 



I mean, he's ok for some programs I guess, but the situation right now doesn't need any of the toxicity he brings, especially when he has essentially zero pedigree outside of being slightly above mediocre at Rutger's while they played in pretty down conference. 

Ron Utah

October 13th, 2014 at 3:44 PM ^

As I said, I don't view Schiano as a homerun by any stretch of the imagination, but he did pretty darn well at a school that has some serious issues.

While his start at Rutgers was awful (a school that hadn't had a winning record since 1992), his last six years he was 49-28.  Hoke never had sustained success like that, and the Big East, while bad, is better than the competition Hoke faced.  Schiano coached in the NFL for three years.  He was also a DC at Miami (YTM) and coordianted the #12 and #7 defenses in the country in his two years there--and he achieved the #7 defense playing the 12th-toughest schedule in the country.

And let me ask you this question: Can you imagine Bill Belichick asking Brady Hoke for advice?  What about Urban Meyer?  Schiano has worked with both the Patriots and Ohio this off-season, and is widely regarded as a defensive guru.  He has a clear defensive system and a sharp football mind.  He is highly demanding of his players.

Again, I don't think anyone would mistake Schiano for Jim Harbaugh, but he's a guy who seems to fit Michigan's culture and is very, very different from Brady Hoke in virtually every way.  Brady Hoke is delegator, Schiano is a micro-manager.  Hoke is a rah-rah position coach, Schiano is a detail-oriented coordinator.  Hoke is patient with development, Schiano is highly demanding RIGHT NOW.

I'm not going to tell you that you should like Schiano, and I'm certainly not going to guarantee that he's a success at Michigan.  But he's nothing like Brady Hoke.

alum96

October 13th, 2014 at 4:00 PM ^

I will say this again and I have said it in every CC writeup I have done.  I expect an ELITE coach to start turning things around by year 3.  That does not mean take Rutgers (or Kentucky or Miss State or NC State or Stanford) to 11-2.  People are unrealistic about that.  But you need to look like a solid program and pull out a surprise or two versus teams that you have no right to beat. 

For example Harbaugh vs USC in year 3, when Stanford when 8-5.  Heck Rich Rod just did it to Oregon.  Kelly did this at Cincy,  Sumlin at Houston and A&M (in year 1-2), Graham at Tulsa & ASU (in year 1-2) etc.  Ironically Mullen is not one of those guys; his year 3 and 4 were wholly unimpressive with a bunch of wins vs sub .500 teams and baby seals.

It is akin to watching a sophmore who you know is not quite ready but is making 2 special plays every game - but then gets busted a few times because he is learning.  This is Henry and Lewis this year.  This is Jake Ryan 2 years ago.  There is a coaching equivalent for that IMO.

Now that is not to say Schiano has not improved as a coach from a decade ago - that is the other thing people are not allowing for.  He was a coach in his late 30s at the time he began at Rutgers (maybe mid 30s?) and  am sure has learned a ton.  Meaning if we went back in time and placed the Schiano of 2014 into 2001 Rutgers he probably would have gotten more out of the team. 

I think Schiano is basically a poor man's Lloyd Carr.  Which is a big upgrade over Hoke.  But he strikes me as a young more photogenic Jerry Kill.  Or Kirk Ferentz of the East Coast.  Solid coaches all.  Going to beat Mark Dantonio and Urban Meyer regularly?  I don't feel like any of them would.

UMxWolverines

October 13th, 2014 at 5:37 PM ^

What? Nick Saban's best record at Michigan State was 9-2 and it took him 5 years to do that. This ''oh he only had one good year'' thing is asinine. 

Then again in year 4 they blew out Notre Dame and upset #1 Ohio State. But that was year FOUR. 

Also who had Todd Graham beaten that is anywhere near good? 

alum96

October 13th, 2014 at 7:46 PM ^

Anywhere near good?

Tulsa year 1 - beat eventual #14 (11-2) BYU

ASU year 2 - beat eventual #20 Wisconsin, eventual #19 USC, eventual #16 USC, and eventual #25 Washington.  Lost to eventual #20 ND by 3 on a neutral field, and Stanford twice.

Let's say you were correct on Saban ...finding an exception to the rule however is not the point.  Most elite coaches find ways to win some key games by year 3 - not dominate but pull out some key upsets. 

That said you are wrong on Saban - just looked: Year 1, beat eventual #19 UM.  Year 3 beat eventual #16 PSU 49-14.  Year 4 beat eventual #22 ND, and eventual #2 OSU - in Columbus.

So yes good coaches have their teams on the upswing in years 3/4 with key wins vs teams that they "should not".   

M-Dog

October 14th, 2014 at 12:37 AM ^

alum96 hit the nail on the head . . . who can regularly beat Dantonio and Meyer?  That is the criteria for this coaching search this time around.
 
I actually don't think Hoke is as bad as most other people on this board.  And I think he would have the team significantly improved by the end of next year due to more experience and the return of key injured players.
 
HOWEVER, I still don't think he is right for the job.  Because there is no way I see him regularly beating Dantonio and Meyer.  He can do better, but not good enough.  He does not have the discipline, edge, and acumen to produce a consistent elite winner.
 
The next coach we pick has to have that.  It can't be someone who is just going to turn a C- team into a B- team.  No Kirk Ferentz's for us this time around.

Ron Utah

October 14th, 2014 at 10:32 AM ^

Here is a good way to say this: I believe Schiano would be an upgrade over Hoke.  I do NOT believe that Schiano is an elite coach, and I don't think he's the best man for the job.

But the best man for the job may not take it, and I think Schiano could be a very good coach for Michigan.  I don't WANT Schiano.  I would be okay with Schiano.

I'm not just grading coaches I want.  I'm grading the possibilities.

This post was NOT an endorsement of Greg Schiano.  He's probably about 10th on my list; but I wouldn't throw a tantrum if we ended-up with him.

ST3

October 13th, 2014 at 3:58 PM ^

Some random stuff from his wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Schiano)

While at the University of Miami, Schiano coached: NFL Pro Bowlers Dan Morgan, Jonathan Vilma, and Ed Reed.

So was that defense because of him, or having three NFL pro bowlers on it? Granted, he was smart enough to maximize their potential, but most college coaches don't have a Vilma and Reed to depend on.

He instructed his defense to create a scrum even when teams were in victory formation.

That doesn't sound like Michigan to me. In fact, that sounds like a real jerk.

In December 2007, The Star-Ledger reported that Schiano spoke with University of Michigan Athletic Director Bill Martin "for quite a while" on December 5 about the head coaching vacancy at the school.[14] Two days later, he withdrew his name from consideration and remained as the Rutgers Head Coach.

If it's true he turned us down in '07...

My opinion of the Big East is that it was on par with the Mountain West. The Big East gets more acclaim because of East Coast Bias, but the Mountain West schools are just as tough, they just don't get the publicity. Patterson's record at TCU is much more impressive to me than Schiano's at Rutgers.

CalifExile

October 13th, 2014 at 8:23 PM ^

I share your understanding that Schiano rejected UM in 2007. Supposedly it was because he was waiting on a chance to coach Penn State. I don't know where the OP got this: "Supposedly, Schiano has already said yes to Michigan (in 2007)."

RJMAC

October 13th, 2014 at 10:52 PM ^

Yes, Schiano turned down Michigan, BUT I wouldn't hold that against him in deciding to hire as Michigan coach. DC Greg Mattison turned down Michigan, turned his back on Lloyd Carr, quit his coordinator position, and made a lateral move to Notre Dame. Not too many people hold that against him.

RJMAC

October 14th, 2014 at 2:22 PM ^

That is fine however the fact remains at the time he turned his back on Lloyd Carr and Michigan, and chose Notre Dame. I recall reading that Carr wasn't very happy with what he did. Just drawing similarities between Mattison and Schiano. Both rejected Michigan for their various justifiable reasons. Schiano is from New Jersey and maybe wanted the Penn State job over Michigan because his family would be closer to home or maybe it was just better pay like Mattison sought. Not a real reason to disqualify Schiano now. Circumstances change with Schiano, as they did with Mattison.

RJMAC

October 13th, 2014 at 10:36 PM ^

Ok, so you think Schiano is a jerk because of the scrum incident, and isn't what Michigan is about. Did you cross Jim Harbough off the hire list as well, due to his jerkish tendencies?

bronxblue

October 13th, 2014 at 7:29 PM ^

Yeah, I've never understood the Schiano love.  He's a decent recruiter who turned Rutgers into a consistent okay team, but like you said he basically kept a couple of kids from going to PSU and won in a mediocre conference.  Taking him feels like a lateral move, and given how he left TB I'm not sure he's as golden as people remember him from in college.  I'm not fan of Jim Harbaugh, but if we are getting an NFL guy who left a program with some acrimony give me a guy who turned Stanford into a big-time player.

alum96

October 13th, 2014 at 3:37 PM ^

What's interesting about Schiano is  a lot of people are "I am ok with him" but that is because of a very long term run at Rutgers.  If you just look at his first 4-5 years it is ugly.  Very ugly. And many of these same people are discounting other coaches at bad programs who struggle in years 1 or 2 because they did not pull Urban Meyer like turnarounds immediately.  Yet Schiano who struggled for far longer is palpable.

I find that very interesting.

Here is Rutgers after 4 years of Schiano.

Rutgers Scarlet Knights (Big East Conference) (2001–2011)
2001 Rutgers 2–9 0–7 8th      
2002 Rutgers 1–11 0–7 8th      
2003 Rutgers 5–7 2–5 7th      
2004 Rutgers 4–7 1–5 6th      

 

alum96

October 14th, 2014 at 12:55 AM ^

You are not getting my point.  I have forwarded a # of candidates who "gasp" did not turn around a junk program in 1 or 2 years.  People look down on them and say "no way".  But are cool with Schiano who in year 1-2 was a complete laughingstock.  And didnt move much above laughingstock in year 3-4.

I don't disagree that EVENTUALLY he turned them into a decent program.  In a bad conference.  But if you post a candidate who didnt turn around someone in 2 years people say NO NO NO.  But Schiano many are "yes". 

ST3

October 13th, 2014 at 3:46 PM ^

I thought I'd grade my favorite hypothetical candidate (IF HE WAS HEALTHY!) using your criteria.

  • Track Record: A-. Has coached 5 teams and all five show improving win totals. Never got to the promised land (playoff championship or major bowl victory.)

  • Michigan Ties: B+. Coached at SVSU. Mostly coached in the Midwest. Currently coaches in Big Ten. Understands the Little Brown Jug rivalry.

  • Recruiting: B. Smart enough to recruit Berkley Edwards. Actually, I have no idea about this one. Was Mitch Leidner a top recruit? Probably not.

  • Chances/Loyalty: C. Has shown significant job-hopping tendencies, but this could be his final move. Health concerns make job in Ann Arbor a good fit.

  • Demeanor: C. Looks like a gopher.

  • Three Phases: B+. 

  • Roster Fit: A. Manball offense, likes passing to the tight end. Ra'Shede Hageman shows his ability to coach up and get the most out of his d-line.

  • OVERALL GPA: 3.04 (B).

So I guess I convinced myself NOT to hire Jerry Kill.

ih8losing

October 13th, 2014 at 3:47 PM ^

I'm not sure how it is that Schiano is even being considered as a viable option here. If we're going to pick up someone with a tough demeanor and military mentality he better have the track record to back it up, which Schiano does not in my book.

I was rooting for MissState tapering off this year so we could go after Mullen, right now I see a 0.01% chance of pulling him out of the SEC.

 

#GoBlue!

 

Tater

October 13th, 2014 at 3:53 PM ^

Greg Schiano is basically a David Brandon type who attended a school where he could play and decided to go into coaching instead of business.  He is arrogant, pigheaded and 50 years behind the times.  He parlayed one stellar running back at a school in a conference that had no depth into an NFL job, where he failed miserably.  

Schiano has left behind a trail of pissed off people at Rutgers and the Tampa Bay area.  He was 68-67 at Rutgers and 11-21 at Tampa Bay.

No, thanks.

petered0518

October 13th, 2014 at 6:47 PM ^

I'm sorry, but any criteria that compares Schiano and Patterson and ends up prefering Schiano is screwed up.

Schiano is widely disliked, had a track record barely any better than Hoke at Ball State/SDSU, and already said no to us once. I just don't get it, why would anyone want this guy?

Mr. Yost

October 13th, 2014 at 10:29 PM ^

Is starting to look real interesting...I may tune into some UK games just to see what the fuss is about.

He was at Miami when they were good. How were his defenses at Arizona? Then he was at FSU when Jimbo turned them around, now he's got UK looking dangerous.

At age 47, he's quickly moving up my list unless someone can share some reasons why he shouldn't be there.

maize-blue

October 14th, 2014 at 10:02 AM ^

The more the season goes on and the more success Miss State has, the more I feel pessimistic about Mullen. At this point, going from Miss State to Michigan seems a step down. I'm also not conviced Hoke is gone after this year. If they are competitive against OSU and MSU and win the others I think there could be a chance he is retained. If there are any more bad losses, I think he is gone. I still think Miles is the guy if Hoke is let go.

btn

October 17th, 2014 at 7:56 PM ^

I am from Jersey and Rutgers is my #2 team. 

I was very impressed with what Schiano did to get Rutgers from awful to mediocre, which was a massive improvent.

He is a great recruiter.  He is a very good motivator of men.

However, he is a very lousy gameday coach.  In my opinion the greatest issue Michigan has right now is that Hoke is a lousy gameday coach as well.  With Meyer and Dantonio in the division, we need someone who is an excellent gameday coach.  He does not pass the test.