The 12th game rumor post has evolved to an App State vs. Toledo discussion - so it probably deserves its own thread.
I still hold that Toledo was a worse loss. Discuss amongst yourself -- or ignore if you don't care.
they are 1 aa and ohio state fans made shirts and i still hear about it at school
easily app state. we were #5 playing a 1AA team. against toledo we were something like 2-6 and playing a bad MAC team.
App St. hands down. That was a senior-laden team ranked in the top 5 losing at home to a D-IAA school in the first game of a season in which M was supposed to be a major national championship contender. There was absolutely no excuse for that performance.
Now, if the question is which team was worse between the two, then obviously Toledo was worse, if not a lot worse. But considering M's situation, losing to Toledo wasn't so much as a gut punch as much of an alarm that that this thing wasn't going to turn around quickly.
App. State, and it's not even close, I'd say. What were our expectations when we lost to Toledo? I mean, it was disappointing and nauseating, but it's not like anyone was really expecting much out of this team this year.
App. State, we were #5, and people were talking about us as a contender for the MNC...Henne, Hart, and Long in their last hurrah- yeah, this isn't even close in my mind.
In perception and reality, Appalachian State was a worse loss.
Michigan sucked in 2008, so losing to a sucky team is expected.
Michigan had a NC coach, a Heisman candidate in Mike Hart, the #1 pick in the draft, and the all-time leading passer in school history. They were ranked in the top 5 and lost to a team not in the same division. Theoretically (going on recruiting rankings), Michigan's backups should have beaten Appalachian State. Perhaps even the third-stringers.
Not only was it a worse loss football-wise, but perception is reality - and the entire country was ROTFLMAO when we lost to Appalachian State. When we lost to Toledo, they collectively snickered and moved on.
The problem with that media reaction is that it shows that they are a bunch of uneducated idiots. Yes, Michigan should never have lost that game. That goes without saying. However, to honestly believe that Michigan's backups should have beaten App State is just uneducated and egotistic. That team had very talented playmakers of their own and the system that they run negates a considerable amount of the talent differential at the non-skill positions. For example, here is some perspective from LSU as they prepared for the game this year against App State and looking back at App State-Michigan from 2007 and App State-LSU from 2006 (http://blog.nola.com/lsusports/2008/08/lsu_football_team_vows_no_surp.html). People act like App State was some no talent IAA team and that couldn't be father from the truth. Hell, look what a top 10 IAA team (Cal Poly) almost did (and should have done) to Wisconsin, at Wisconsin this year because they had a few playmakers at the skill positions and an effective offensive scheme.
2008 Wisconsin and 2007 Michigan (when Henne and Hart were healthy) are two very, very different teams.
I was being somewhat sarcastic with that whole "Our third stringers should have beaten them!" thing.
When we lost to App State, I literally turned off my phone for three days. I ended up getting emails from friends that were legitimately concerned about whether I'd hurt myself because I'd gone incommunicado. When I turned it back on, I had something like 20 texts from different people about it and 3 messages. Some of them were from immediately after the game urging me not to hurt myself.
When we lost to Toledo, I got one text saying "Toledo!? Really!?" and that was it.
Now, App State was CLEARLY the better team of the two, and I maintain that if they played in the MAC or CUSA or something that they probably would have won the conference, but still. Nothing will ever approach the pain caused by that loss. Nothing.
Appy State was so much a bigger loss than Toledo that it's not even worth going into the details.
I will limit myself to saying that Appy State will essentially never be forgotten. But, years from now you'll see that UM is elventy billion and 1 against the MAC and people will say "when did Michigan lose to a MAC team?"
"Oh, RR's first season. Whew that one sucked."
When we lost to App State, I was stunned. I was shocked, confused, and somewhat disoriented. I couldn't fathom how it was possible for it to happen (I didn't have BTN).
When we lost to Toledo, I sort of shrugged and thought "Not that surprising".
I think that is part of what makes the App State game so much bigger to a lot of people (i.e. media and fans of other teams); hardly anyone actually saw it and saw how well App State played. Having watched the game my reaction is much more muted toward that game than those people I know who only saw the score/highlights.
I was there too, with my foreign born wife at her first football game. She had no idea the depths of my despair - and we barely escaped wrecking the car on the way home I was so out of it.
I watched every second of that game. Appalachian State played well, but Michigan played like shit. Henne blew, and our biggest advantages - size, strength, and depth - didn't show at all.
I agree, none of those showed, but they didn't show for three reasons: App State's skill players, App State's scheme, and the weather.
Weather? I was there. It was bright and sunny. A little warm, but not off-the-charts hot.
game because I knew that were good. They were not just another turkey D-Ia team, they were the defending champions and also won it in 2007 as well.
Was I surprised that Michigan lost? Certainly. But I wasn't devastated.
But the loss to Toledo was more depressing to me, because Toledo was much worse that Appalachian State and, to me, showed me how bad this Michigan team was.
The Appalachian State loss, on the other hand, showed me how bad our coaching was.
Bingo. That's exactly the way that I feel about those two games as well.
I get that Toledo was depressing because, by virtue of them being a shitty team, it solidified our standing as a shitty team - which is hard to take. I understand that losing to Appy State doesn't do that.
That said - the Appy State loss was like a brick to the face. Most of us (myself included) had no idea that they were a "good FCS team" - I just knew they were an FCS team. Losing that game, as the #3 team in the country, at home, with four-year starters at QB and HB was just mind-boggling - that team losing to an FCS team seemed to be sheer impossibility.
I knew that the 2008 team had it in them to lose to literally anybody. I mean, watching them turn the ball over 9 times against ND made me know that any game could easily be lost. I KNEW this was a shitty team. So when they confirmed themselves as a shitty team, it didn't hurt as badly.
I understand what you're saying. That's why I think this is one of those highly subjective questions that no one is really going to convince anyone anything other than how they feel about it.
The upset weighs bigger on you. That 2007 Michigan team had great aspirations that were immediately obliterated by a much lesser team.
But when I consider the history of the program as a whole, losing to a 3-9 MAC team, rather than the defending and eventual champions of D-Ia, is more just more stunning (again, in reference to the teams Michigan has put on the field year after year after year).
A 3-9 MAC team! Until this year, I would have never, ever believed that a Michigan team could lose to a 3-9 MAC team at home.
Again, it depends on how you weigh it.
I honestly don't think the Appalachian State loss was as indicative of bad coaching as most people seem to think. There's only so much a coach (or coaches) can do to tell a team that they shouldn't underestimate an opponent. At a certain point, you have to look at the players and say, "You just flat-out didn't get it done." Michigan's defense wasn't good, but Henne looked horrible at times in that game. As a four-year starter, he knew what to do - he just didn't do it. The offensive line was also a problem. Hart did have a good game, so I can't blame him.
The spread offense is designed to score points and level the playing field. Where we SHOULD HAVE hurt them was when we had the ball. With all that talent on the field, we should have scored 50 or 60 points.
Coaching only goes so far. There are other people involved, too.
I can only speak for myself, but when I talk about that game showing the weakness of the coaching I wasn't talking about mental preparation (i.e. taking them lightly), but rather about gameplan preparation. That came through in the Oregon disaster the next game as well.
I recall some discussion in which the defense just wasn't prepared for Appalachian State's offense.
expose the lack of fundementals.
I may be wrong, but this is something that should have (1) been noticed by the coaches before hand and (2) worked on.
Bo used to do that all of the time. There were a number of times when the team lost, and Bo would state after the game that they were going to work on fundementals. You have to block and tackle in order to win games.
Fundementals can be taught/coached.
Thus my assertion, the team that took the field was poorly coached.
When the FG was blocked I sat down the ground and couldn't breath. The only time I can remember feeling that way was right after my first ever girl friend broke up with me. There was just this enourmous hole in the world and I wondered how I could survive the next second. Fortunately, after the AppySt. lose I shook that malaise in about 30 seconds. The girlfriend loss took several weeks. Interestingly, it was a completely seperate feeling from when I learned I'd failed my orals at Michigan. Then, I felt like I was swimming through a surreal world in which my entire future vanished. Fortunately, I guess, my committee gave me a month to prepare another oral and I aced it like it was cool.
After the game the wife told me in her cute accent "don't worry, you can just beat them next time!"
She also told me after the season the only reason she liked going to games with me was for 1) the band 2) the cheerleaders and 3) kettle corn.
Me? The game? not so much.
Henne, Hart, Manningham, Arrington, Long, etc, etc... The hype around last season and the potential for our best offense ever and they came out and choked. Big time.
Against Toledo, look at our offense. Threet, Sheridan...need I say more? We were 2-3, went into the game knowing we sucked on offense. Heck, we only put up 16 points against Miami (Ohio).
When I look at the weapons we had against App State and what we had against Toledo, even though App State was probably better than Toledo, there's no doubt in my mind losing to them was worse. I knew the potential to lose to Toledo was there. Against App State? Not at all.
about it. App. State was worse. Seeing tuos fans wearing app state t shirts at school still pisses me off.
There is one thing that mitigates the App State loss for me, and that is the victory over Florida in the bowl game. I live in Florida, actually in the heart of "Gator-land" with stupid Florida fans everywhere. I heard about App State from every single Florida fan that I know who knows I'm a Michigan fan non-stop for the entire season. That is, until Michigan beat Florida. The silence was deafening, and then their self-pity started. It was hilarious! They treated it as if App State beat them and none of them will even talk about that bowl game with me. Most of the Florida fans I know consider that to be Florida's most embarassing loss ever. I'm serious; you can't make this stuff up. The rational few Florida fans that I know at that point realized that App State might actually have been good. It makes up for it somewhat.
Amen. My boss at the time abused me all season... until the Florida game. Beating Tim Tebow and the Florida Gators was definitely a great way for Lloyd to go out.
Don't you all agree that it's better to schedule a bad "big name" school rather than a great no-name team? i.e. Play a bad Miami (Yes That Miami) rather than a good App State?
If you play an App State (Hot, hot hot...) you have to blow them out or else you look bad, but play a good Miami team, and you just have to win.
Additionally, I respect one thing about our rivals due south of us. They've played a couple of regular season games against Texas a couple years ago, and they played USC this year. I know we've played Oregon a couple of times over the last few years, but i'd love to see us play teams like Georgia or Florida a couple of times. If we beat them, that'd get the attention of some recruits out in those regions.
Bill Martin has said it's three tomato cans and Notre Dame as far as the eye can see. Not much chance of a Georgia or Florida series. Besides, they don't leave the south much anyway.
But why can't those tomato cans be name brands that are well known? It would obviously be more risky, but to me it would be more rewarding.
i'm tired of looking at the schedule and seeing Eastern, Western, Central, Miami OH, Toledo (altho Central Michigan deserves respect.) These games lack excitement and energy. I think I speak for many folks when I say that I'd enjoy seeing Michigan play higher profile teams they don't regularly play. That's part of the fun and intrigue of bowl games, why not apply it to the regular season?
I think you can thank the BCS for this situation. Used to be that the national championship was almost an afterthought. You tried to win your conference, you went to a bowl game, and you waited until the votes came out to see who was "national champion". It was purely subjective because usually the top two teams did not play.
With the BCS losing more than one game will knock you out of contention (2007 LSU is the exception). Look at USC this year: just one loss and they are on the outside looking in.
Most major schools won't take a scheduling risk with two name programs, with the exception of USC and Pete Carroll, who has abnormally large balls. It's science.
Bigger upset (because of Michigan fielding a very good team) - Appalachian State.
Worse team a Michigan team has ever lost to - Toledo.
[Note: division Ia is just a classification; there are many good teams there. North Carolina teams seem to make it a habit to loose to D-Ia teams all the time]
Personally, Michigan is Michigan and should always field a decent team. That is why, personally, I weigh the "worse team a Michigan team has ever lost to" more heavily.
My feelings exactly. Give that man a cigar.
Is Toledo really the worst team Michigan has EVER lost to? I'm not disagreeing, because I haven't done the historical research. But that's a pretty big statement.
I believe that Michigan has only lost 2 games in its entire history to teams that were probably not among the 100 best teams in the nation that season:
(1) North Carolina 21, Michigan 7 (October 1, 1966)
(2) Toledo 13, Michigan 10 (October 11, 2008)
There is no doubt at all that Appalachian State was one of the 100 best teams in college football in 2007. There is no doubt at all that Toledo was NOT one of the 100 best teams in college football in 2008. North Carolina 1966 was borderline, according to the rating systems I see out there, but probably not a top 100 team.
I should just shut up and let you guys do the quality work for me!
And damn, Alton, you looked it up and posted it faster than I probably could read it!
that spans, what, 13 decades?
Part is by the seat of my pants, part my familiarity of the program. But it would be quite a challenge for someone to argue a loss to a worse team.
Loss to Cornell in 1951 may be a possibility, after the de-emphasis of sports in the Ivies. That game was at Cornell, and the following year, we beat them 49-7 in Ann Arbor.
But I am having a tough time coming up with any losses that are close. Michigan didn't make it a habit to schedule many games against teams from weak conferences (except military academies) in the 40's - 80's. And they certainly didn't lose to them.
Like I said, I wasn't arguing. I haven't researched all our losses. It could be. I just tend to question superlatives, because they're often tossed about carelessly.
I wasn't trying to slam you.
It is tough to judge through all of the history, when there were eras when the Ivies were the powers, when the militaries were the powers, when Minnesota was the best program in the Big 10, if not the country.
There was even a time when Notre Dame was good.
But that is unsubstantiated rumors; like unicorns.
Uh oh, I think I'm in trouble with someone.
easily app st. that game is still referred to by everyone. that loss as only very, very slightly offset by 1) the 2007 college fball season was an absolute rollercoaster where everyone won and lost and 2) we beat florida like they were our red headed step-child.
In pure football terms, Toledo was worse, but the fact that App State was 1-AA - and that we were not only a top 5 team, but that it was the senior year for Henne/Hart/Long and everyone had pointed to that year forever - made it the worst punch in the gut ever.
LSU beat the defending FCS champion 41-7 this year and it could have been a lot worse. And LSU wasn't that good this year.
I think you are all over-estimating App. State and under-estimating how terrible of a performance Michigan turned in.
I think it's impossible to judge Appalachian State's ranking compared to FBS teams. In the two most recent examples, ASU beat an above average FBS team by blocking a game-winning field goal attempt. And then they lost to an above average FBS team 41-7.
There's too small of a sample size to project much.