in your FACE, captain
"When Can We Fire This Guy?"
A very special mailbag, with just one question. This one has been asked, or implied by people sending me reasons the play of the team is definitely the fault of the coaches, by many, many people the past couple weeks. If you sent one, I read it. I'm not responding except here. Sorry. Usually I try to be better about it.
The platonic ideal:
Just talk me off the ledge...
Please explain what it would take for you to no longer support Rich Rod. What specifically has to happen? And then, please state not just what you expect to see from the program in the coming years, but how the team will improve? To me, that's why I just can't support Rich Rod anymore. Show me where are the underclassmen who will show improvement and how you actually see the coaches making them better.
I just don't see it. Instead, I see a mentally soft team, that while yes, has serious deficiencies, is currently losing to teams that also have serious deficiencies. Our players seem to be all over the place and just poorly coached in general.
Like I said, talk me off the ledge..
I get emails like this because I've been a supporter of Rodriguez throughout his tenure at Michigan and am moving much more slowly towards the conclusion that Rodriguez should be fired than the rest of the universe. The emailer asks for specifics. To set ground rules, here are the assumptions I am working with.
Virtually nothing that happened in 2008 was avoidable, and it was mostly not Rodriguez's fault. Michigan's program had already been gutted by attrition and poor motivation by the time Rodriguez made it to campus, and the exodus of offensive stars in the aftermath of his hiring was an inevitable consequence of the radical shift in offensive philosophy.
I have it from reliable sources Ryan Mallett was gone no matter who was the coach and that Manningham was headed for the NFL after three years from day one. Arrington left because Mallett left. Boren left because he was asked to put in the same amount of effort as the rest of the team and not given special exemptions to go be Mr. Plow. If you want to blame Rodriguez for Boren, fine. Add him to the team last year and you still have a disaster of an offense that starts Nick Sheridan most of the year.
Arguments that Rodriguez should have stuck with a pro-style offense he's never coached and forgo the installation of his system in order to get to 5-7 when hardly anyone on the roster has even played in a pro-style system have been discussed already; I think they are silly.
Rodriguez is not responsible for the enormous holes on the roster. Rodriguez has had a single full recruiting class and had a brief window in which to patch some spread-type players onto Carr's last class. The gaping holes on defense and the lack of talent at outside receiver and offensive line are almost entirely Lloyd Carr's doing. The freshmen quarterbacks are a combination of Carr putting every egg for three years in Mallett's basket and the radical shift in offensive philosophy.
This has been discussed elsewhere on the blog; I won't belabor the point.
Hiring Scott Shafer was a terrible mistake, and the other hires are questionable. At the very least it was a misjudge of the guy's ability to fit in on the staff. At worst, he allowed his DC to get submarined and saw the defense implode because of his assistants' impatience.
This may extend to Rodriguez's other hires as well: Jay Hopson has recruited very few players as Michigan withdrew entirely from Mississippi after last year's debacle; Hopson also secured the commitments of both defensive tackles who went elsewhere on signing day. His linebacking corps has regressed horribly.
And while the jury is still be out (very, very out) on Robinson given the players he has to work with, but his track record since his salad days with the Broncos is one of relentless failure with a single good-not-great year at Texas mixed in.
It is worth noting that the guys who can really be considered DeBord-style crony legacy folk are Magee, Tall, Smith, and Gibson. Dews is a vagabond who was a grad assistant at WVU for a few years before wandering around to Holy Cross, CMU, and UNLV. Frey was picked off from South Florida a year before Rodriguez left WVU and had no prior connection to Rodriguez. Hopson is obviously new. Fred Jackson was an enforced hire by the Michigan AD.
The crony guys are the offensive coordinator who everyone loves, the DL coach who is, IME, doing a very good job, the QB coach who helped Pat White be Pat White, and… well… Tony Gibson. At this point I'd rather see Rodriguez hire a guy he knows inside and out; the folk he brings in from the outside haven't done that well.
We are not at the point yet where the deficiencies in the team are clearly the doing of the coaches. It's pretty suggestive at linebacker, sure. But the secondary is just a disaster zone and would be a disaster zone if Monte Kiffin cloned himself eight times and had all eight players try to teach the safeties how to play football. The offense has improved greatly from year one to year two and has done so with true freshmen at quarterback. Since Rodriguez has a track record of success, he should be extended the benefit of the doubt.
They're not "soft." They don't play like mincing Frenchmen. They play like speed-addled kids with ADD. They are irresponsible and sometimes dumb. This is because they are terribly young or Michigan's linebackers. What does "soft" even mean? Jonas Mouton blowing coverages and cutback lanes game after game is not soft. Mike Williams overrunning everyone on Illinois is not soft. Michigan blowing assignments on the Illinois goal line stand is not soft.
It takes time to dig out.
Michigan was not a 3-9 team by accident; they had the talent of a 3-9 team. If you disagree with that, it's probably to suggest that Michigan was really a 5-7 or 4-8 team that Rodriguez screwed up into being a slightly more horrible team, right?
If you think that Michigan's downfall was entirely Rodriguez-made and you're pointing to the gutted recruiting classes that were in the top ten at their inception but have been ground down to dust, you can safely move on from this post since nothing in it will convince you. My opinion is that a combination of poor late stewardship from Carr and the wrenching transition to the opposite of Lloyd Carr in so many ways is what doomed us to this transition.
I expect Rodriguez to provide continual improvement until Michigan is back to being Michigan. That's my baseline. I'm not exactly thrilled with what's gone on this year but I think it's understandable. Given the roster situation and the chaos at DC—which Rodriguez is responsible for—this Michigan team is within the range in which Rich Rodriguez is not an idiot who got lucky with Pat White and Steve Slaton. It's towards the lower end of the range but it is in the range. It takes time to dig out from the hole they were in.
Next year, Michigan must be better than they are this year. I have no idea where the emailer is getting the idea that Michigan can't be a better team when they return at least 16 starters on offense and defense, with Donovan Warren a potential 17th, some combination of Dorrestein and Omameh a potential 18th, and Darryl Stonum a functional 19th.
Additionally, the players on this team are still extremely young. There are 11 starters on the team who are sophomores or freshman by eligibility, and many of the guys with redshirts in there are guys like Hemingway, Huyge, and Molk who missed large chunks of time with injury. The quarterbacks should take huge leaps forward in their second year. The only spot at which Michigan should be appreciably worse next year, excepting special teams, is Brandon Graham. That will be a major loss; it won't offset improved play at every position on the field.
So, sure. If you really don't think Michigan is going to be better next year I can understand why you'd want to see Rodriguez fired. I also think you're completely nuts.
If they aren't obviously better, then Rodriguez should be fired. If they don't make a bowl game, if they aren't obviously moving away from the Big Ten cellar, if they don't approach yardage parity against BCS opponents, Rodriguez should be fired. I think all of those things are seriously unlikely, and am willing to invest a year to find out. Where it is in black and white: acts of God nonwithstanding, Michigan has to go 8-5 next year or Rodriguez should be cut loose. 7-6 might be okay if the bowl matchup is obviously bad.
This is the last I'll say about it until next year.
I think I just got served.
Florida's D. they were absolute shit 2 years ago, this year same players top D in the country.
Im not saying michigan will morph into Florida in 2 years, but shit I'd take Iowa's D.
"i'm not sayin, i'm just sayin"
Brian, thank you for being a voice of reason amidst the chaos of insanity. I really appreciate the viewpoints you bring both here on your WTKA appearances (mostly because they're insightful, but also because I agree with them :)).
Everyone else, as a Michigan player's father just pointed out to us, all of the fire Rich Rod talk is only hurting us in the recruiting battles. So shut the heck up! Please.
Good post Brian! I don't understand how people think going back to square one next year with a new coach is better then giving RR time to prove that with all of the young players with time will get better. If we still look this bad next year then I'm sure I will change my mind, but I don't like the thought of starting over again next year.
Rich Rod was hired in 2008. The stock market crashed in 2008. We suffered an economic recession, GM and Chrysler went bankrupt.
Chrysler and Crisler are pronounced similarly.
Yes we are still Michigan. No, these are not the worst two seasons in our history, go Wikipedia it if you must.
When was he hired into WVU HMMMMM?
You cannot be this dense. Do you really think it is RICH FUCKING RODRIGUEZ THAT MADE THE DECISION RE: THE MUSIC? Ever heard of the Athletic Department? Ever heard thought it was their doing? Ever thought RR was more busy worrying about shit like COACHING THE TEAM!??!!!!!oneeleven. (Sorry- had to make fun of my own all caps there). I'm pretty damn sure it wasn't/isn't his call, and he was just towing the company line when someone asked if he liked it. What's he gonna say- "no, that shit blows; what the fuck is my boss, Bill Martin, thinking?"
Ummmmm, Rich Rodriguez did come out and say we need to pump in RAWK music. He may not have made the final decision himself, but he sure as hell started the discussion.
Personally, that's my biggest gripe with him. I'm confident he'll turn things around on the field, but I'll forever be pissed about the terrible catastrophe that is Michigan Stadium piped in music. I'm mostly pissed at the AD, but still RR was the one who started it.
And yes, this post was 100% serious.
oh no, not consecutive losing seasons! Let's pick arbitrary amounts of time to measure!
Seriously man, I would say that 1-7 is a hell of a lot worse than 3-9 or 5-7. That's not technically, that is actually a lot worse than 5-7.
And what exactly is Michigan Football? Isn't it whatever we make it to be? Just because YOU don't approve doesn't change the fact that this is the direction the program is heading for the near future. Innovation isn't always bad. Would you prefer 3 yards and a cloud of dust? Do you still view the forward pass as a nasty trick play? Do you enjoy the Wing T? How about the Wishbone?
And about the music, stop being such a dick about it. Scream loud noises instead to spare your neighbors the indignity of listening to Journey, sorry we couldn't pump in some Mozart.
The problem with not saying anything concrete is that it's impossible to refute. Or maybe that's an advantage for you.
All of dahblue's comments baffle me. Is he not of sound mind? Does it not bother people that he is subjecting us to some of the worst comments in MGo's history? I am not ok with that. I am not ok with insane blathering. I do not blame Brian for "dahblue being an insane douchebag." I did not expect the most eloquent comments ever, but nor did I expect pointless bitching about all of the losses, piped-in music, and vague insults about the slotbacks with dreads. It's all wrong. None of it is worthy of MGoBlog.
I don't believe dahblue needs another comment to prove anything. He's proven that he doesn't understand the greatest college sports blog on the entire internet.
If you're so troubled by someone on the internet calling you an insane douchebag, then I suggest you do one of the following:
1. Stop being an insane douchebag.
2. Quit being a whiny pussy.
3. Get off the internet.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. I think most of us agree that piped in music is the devil.
You know just as well as I do that this guy doesn't live up to any of the past all time greats. Ellipses man, The White Pony, tKoB...
Doesn't he realize what he's doing to Angry Michigan Trollism?
Rodriguez wasn't sanctioned by the NCAA before he came to Michigan. Sampson was, and got himself fired because he violated the terms of his punishment. The cases are totally different. Sampson didn't get fired because his team failed, he got fired because he violated the rules in ways that violated his contract and common sense.
Not only that, but I seriously doubt that this team is anywhere near as divided as Eric Gordon says the 2006/2007 IU basketball team.
I'm hoping that RR is more like Tom Crean, who seems to be building from the ground up, recruiting well and getting the fanbase excited. It takes longer in football, of course. If RR only had to recruit five players to get a top ten class, I'd say next year was a reasonable time to pull the trigger. (Even if Devon Gardner is as good at football as Eric Gordon was at basketbally, he won't have the same effect.) Rodriguez has far more to do. I think, if the team continues increments of improvement, he should get 2011.
By the way, I changed over to the Alabama/LSU game after watching UM/Purdue. Both of those defenses are upperclassman laden and talented. The contrasts in talent, physical maturity, schematic discipline and "playing fast because you know what you're doing," couldn't have been more marked.
Anyone remember the time in the mid-nineties when people though Lloyd Carr was on the hot seat because Michigan had lost 4 games four years in a row? Remember what happened next? Just sayin'
Guy was just taking a cheap shot. I'm a fan of both schools and I see a lot of similarities with Rodriguez and Crean, bot in the situation they're trying to climb out of and how demanding their are with their players on and off the field.
Sampson would not have kicked a kid like Cissoko off his team. He would have given more playing time.
Sampson's team: Half hang out smoking pot, not carrying about the team. Half work their ass off. The half that worked their ass off got no favors, unless they were more talented than the players fucking around.
Rodriguez team is not run that way at all. Thankfully.
At this point I march in lock step with Brian - RichRod gets his third year. But, it had better be a good one, 8-4 or better, or it may not matter what we think.
My concern resides in two positions on the offense. I simply don't see Minor replaced yet, but who knows. I am more concerned about the QB situation.
I have posted previously that I do not see Denard at QB, although for now he is the best backup QB we have. Nothing I have seen shows me that he will be an accurate passer, and the stats from HS and his limited on-field play is consistent with that position. His hands are suspect. Remember, they tried him on punt returns, but he had too many drops. He might, however, fill a big hole as a CB.
Tate is the one who scares me the most. Tate's high school experience was not typical of most QB's. He came from a family of QB's which helped his development; he also had great outside tutelage, something most HS QB's don't receive, or certainly not to the same extent. I guess the operative buzz word is "potential". Is Tate close to his peak, or is there a lot of room left in the tank for development? We are ten games into the season and I still see repetitive mistakes. I also wonder about cold weather. I thought he looked better for Purdue, but that was, relatively speaking, a balmy afternoon in November. He came out of the box early on, but has flatlined in terms of improvement since MSU. I know all the arguments about the O line, Minor, Brown, no WR's. etc. and it is not fair to blame Tate, but I still have a concern. His size and how it relates to longevity is another concern. Perhaps Barwis will help - perhaps.
I make the assumption that our D has to get better, simply because it can't get worse. There will be a lot more experience. Will smaller, quicker players work in the Big Ten? Maybe.
Then there is the matter of quick turnover of coaches scaring off other candidates. Ask Dan Snyder or Al Davis about the coach carousel and what that does to team play.
Maybe the football Gods will smile over the next two weeks...it would make for a much better winter.
I'll call it right now, the heir to MINOR RAGE will be THE RAGING COX.
I hope our D gets better, but we're going to be throwing a bunch more true Sophomores, Freshmen, and rFr out there next year as well.
Virtually nothing that happened in 2008 was avoidable, and it was mostly not Rodriguez's fault.
Brian says he has it on "good authority" that Mallett was gone regardless. Unfortunately, I have no reason to think that's actually the case. On the surface, it doesn't seem to make a ton of sense if a pro-style offensive coach were to be installed. The costs of transferring are pretty high, and going from Michigan to Arkansas is a pretty big prestige dropoff (or was before Rodriguez). It's possible this is the case, but as much respect as I have for Brian I have no reason to expect that that's actually the case. Without more details, I don't think "good authority" is enough here.
Brian then blames Arrington's loss on Mallett's loss. Same issue applies there. I do buy that Manningham was probably gone regardless. I don't now as much about the Boren situation.
Rodriguez is not responsible for the enormous holes on the roster.
This is basically a rehash of Brian's first point. Without Mallett and Arrington being gone, those holes aren't nearly as acute. Furthermore, there are potential issues of Rodriguez not getting enough out of the talent he does have on the roster. I'm thinking of Ezeh, Cissoko, Mouton, and Williams here in particularly, but especially Ezeh, who has gone from a promising freshman, to a totally useless player.
Hiring Scott Shafer was a terrible mistake, and the other hires are questionable.
Brian doesn't really even try to defend Rodriguez here actually.
We are not at the point yet where the deficiencies in the team are clearly the doing of the coaches.
Brian grants that at linebacker, they're suggestive, which in turn undermines his 2nd point that Rodriguez isn't responsible for the holes on the roster.
The Cissoko situation, meanwhile, if handled better could have prevented the need to move Woolfolk to corner. I have no idea if that was possible, but I'm not willing to give Rodriguez a total pass on the situation either. Of course, better linebacker coverage would also help the secondary situation, which even Brian grants is probably Rodriguez's fault.
Finally, while it's true the offense is way better this year than it was last year, that's largely a function of how awful it was last year. The Red Sox could implement a drastic improvement in their 2011 offense if they were willing to play a roster of Alex Gonzalez types in 2010. And Rodriguez certainly doesn't get a pass for doing so with 2 Freshman QBs, when the only reason we're playing 2 Freshman QBs might be because of Rodriguez himself! (Again, a lot of this comes down to the claim that Mallett was gone regardless).
They're not "soft."
That's probably true. They are however "bad."
Brian also doesn't even try to defend the playcalling in a variety of situations, or his inability to get the team to field punts reasonably (something I do not believe a D-1 team can truly be incapable of doing). Literally every other team we've faced can field punts - why can't Michigan? We're not even trying to return the damn things. This is 2 years running now. Just put a 2nd guy back there or something to help recover once the first guy muffs it at least. Stop going for it on 4th and 8 when in field goal range, and you need 2 scores to win anyways. Call a goddam QB sneak on 1st and goal from the 1 foot line when your sole power back is out. Try using your most explosive player for something other than a backup QB (he can catch apparently, and we're weak at wideout...). It goes on and on.
The substantive defense Brian is mounting meanwhile basically all comes down to claiming that Mallett was gone, and that all the top 10 recruiting classes Michigan brought in were locks to be busts even without Rodriguez bringing in a bunch of bad coaches. That's possible, but it doesn't seem likely enough to warrant another year of delaying the transition.
whoa whoa whoa.
this may be nitpicky.. but..
The Cissoko situation, meanwhile, if handled better could have prevented the need to move Woolfolk to corner. I have no idea if that was possible, but I'm not willing to give Rodriguez a total pass on the situation either.
so you're blaming RR for kicking a kid off the team that wasn't going to class despite getting warned several times? what would you have preferred?
Part of being a coach is managing kids. Cissoko was a highly touted recruit at a position of need. I have no idea if someone else could have gotten through to him and gotten him to shape up, but it's not like Cissoko killed someone. This was a situation that was brewing for some time, and it's reasonable to believe that another coach may have managed to get through to him, and gotten him to go to class, and keep his grades up.
Or not - hence my caveat. I don't hold this too much against Rodriguez - in all likelihood, no coach could have saved Cissoko, but until we don't know all the details, I'm not willing to say it was a hopeless situation either.
I agree that may be a bit harsh, but I don't remember a lot of 4/5 star recruits getting booted from OSU for academic violations. Other coaches manage to avert this stuff usually, no?
it was just a pretty weak argument smack in the middle of several stronger arguments.
also, lol OSU:
I don't remember a lot of 4/5 star recruits getting booted from OSU for academic violations.
i also don't remember a lot of 4/5 star recruits not getting cars from local dealerships at OSU. /irony
to be direct, i'd rather there be a high standard for academics. the ncaa system is laughable enough as it is.
Maurice Clarett anyone?
This keeps getting better.
this is what the poster above (notetoself) meant about the car bit. still good to explicitly point out though.
Maurice Clarett was also accused of receiving special treatment from a professor regarding his grades. The car thing works out pretty well too, though.
This was a situation that was brewing for some time, and it's reasonable to believe that another coach may have managed to get through to him, and gotten him to go to class, and keep his grades up.
I can't believe I have to point this out, but Cissoko is responsible for what Cissoko did or didn't do. Isn't the college experience part of the process of becoming a responsible adult? Yet you want to continue to coddle a kid who wasn't doing the work, on or off the field?
Cissoko's HS coach said "he blew it," and you hear nothing but silence from Cissoko. There is no dispute from anyone with knowledge that Cissoko was the one who put himself in that situation. Yet somehow you want to leave open the possibility that RichRod is to blame for not handling this better. Yeah, that's reasonable.
You would fail as a college coach, no sugarcoat.
Everyone murders people.
Or almost does, Glenn Winston.
When Brian refers to roster issues, I assume he's talking about the following:
1. Little to no offensive line talent
2. No offensive line depth
3. No safety talent
4. No safety depth
5. No linebacker depth
6. No quarterback depth
7. No quarterback "fit" for his offense
Everything listed above are issues that RichRod inherited. He did not cause any of those issues, and note that none of those issues involve Mallett's transfer. There is a lot more going on here than just that.
Now, we can yell at RichRod for apparently not making inroads on solving issues 3-5 because of his hiring/firing of Shafer and his hiring of Hopson. Fine, he lost a year on fixing the defense and BOOOOOOO. But you're a fool if you think those issues were going to be magically solved in a year or two even if RichRod had hired Will boommotherf--ker! Muschamp. Even with a great DC and staff continuity on defense, we'd still have these problems at safety and linebacker. Those problems will be solved after 2-3 years of good recruiting and solid development. This isn't going away overnight.
What part of "we're in a hole and it's going to take time to get out" do you not understand?
I think it's cool that you joined up to talk about this and all, but are you really happy with your first post being such a steaming pile of ass-goo?
Mallett's departure was very likely for one reason and one reason only - Michigan fans have gotten to be entitled, and he saw how it affected Henne when the Big House booed him. The last thing a QB wants is for his fans to turn against him. Rodriguez didn't lose Mallett, Carr didn't lose Mallett, the fans lost Mallett.
Mallett wanted to play in a pro style. He only signed with Michigan because he was the promised 'heir' to Henne. As soon as Mustain left Arkansas, it was over.
didn't like the January and February weather and texted friends back in Arkansas that he was coming home before the spring game in 2007? The fans had nothing to do with that.
did you just make a serious argument that mallett left because he was afraid of getting booed? HUUH? dogs and cats! living together! the world doesn't make sense anymore! if you wanted to make that case, you should've at least somehow worked navarre into your reasoning..
Positive things about this post: coherent usage of the English language.
Negative things about this post: Everything else, plus a reference to the Red Sox (seriously, "Nation" members, no one outside of your provincial town cares).
EDIT: This is so far down that I wanted to make clear that it was directed toward kmedved.
I'm a huge baseball fan (HUGE!), and (clearly) I live in Boston.
And I hate the Red Sox. And most Red Sox fans.
A Big +1 to Tokyo Blue
Re: Brian's reference to Mallett: Kmedved wrote, "Unfortunately, I have no reason to think that's actually the case."
And you provide no reason to think it's not the case either. Your assertions of the 'high cost related to transferring' are vauge. The prestige dropoff? Please, the kid is from Texarkana. I doubt he sees Arkansas as a major step down since Arkansas was competing with us for his commitment.
Think of the bonuses for Mallett:
1 going back home.
2 going to Arkansas he is closer to family and friends, playing for a team he grew up following,
3 and Arkansas is a school that competed with M for his services in recruitment. The fact we got him was a coop for Lloyd if I recall correctly given how heated the competition was to get him from regional schools near his home.
With Coach Carr retiring and Mustain transferring, opportunity opened up for Mallett to strike a new path with the Razorbacks. Before Mustain transferred Mallett would likely have been blocked. (I won't get into the hearsay that Carr and Mallett did not see eye to eye on much; but there exists a theory that Mallett had issues being at M well before RR arrived). I will say people change their minds and he chose to go back home to Arkansas. There is little suggest that he was going to stay at M.
The Mallett departure issue was covered in more detail on this blog back around the time he left M. If you are really interested in understanding Brian's 'good authority' reference, you might consider searching the site's archives for more detail before you dismiss it so lightly.
Although, I have never wanted RichRod fired or any other major overhaul, I admit I felt some panic. I appreciate Brian laying out nicely in one post why patience is needed and why he thinks next year will see improvement.
I would still like to see a spark in the next two games that indicates this team won't always panic or over-react to things. As has been said by practically everyone, beating Ohio State would really make the pain tolerable.
is a coach that understands how to beat OSU. Everyone needs to understand that Rich Rod is not going anywhere right now. If he gets this team ready for the next two games and we go to a bowl this will blow over. If you guys cant see that the offense is going to be explosive than you are crazy. (no comment on the defense) I dont know what he is going to do about that mess other than hit the recruiting trail.
If we beat OSU this year he has a pass with me through next year.
Michigan needs a BIG win to end this season.
I agree that 7-5 regular season is a pretty reasonable benchmark for next season. I wish we could pick up some JUCO players on defense, man.
Our offense is going to be pretty nasty next year, assuming we can get a combination of people to = Brandon Minor, which I think we can.
really? would you buy "7-5 is unacceptable"? because i know a guy who gets it factory direct. now, the retail value is $199.99, but for you, my friend, i'd be willing to provide you a little "7-5 is unacceptable" for the low low price of $150 flat.
2007 is the good old days for you? The standard by which all future football seasons should be measured?
you're the guy who mentioned the year before RR arrived as setting the standard for next year; 2007 is the year before RR arrived.
1991 was a good year, M was undefeated in the Big Ten. That was a very different Big Ten; the game has changed alot in the last 18 years, just ask any ND fan.
Outside the Big ten, M lost by 20 to FSU and by 20 to Washington in the Rose Bowl.
sounds like a "you" problem; like you lost something to which you were entitled.